00:00:00 --- log: started forth/10.09.02
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02:29:05 <SunTzu> does anyone here use jonesForth?
02:33:30 <ASau`> Forget this shit.
02:34:12 <SunTzu> does anyone here use jonesForth?
02:34:18 <ASau`> No.
02:34:28 <ASau`> Nobody in his right mind will use this shit.
02:34:46 <SunTzu> then stop talking and let someone else respond 
02:35:17 <ASau`> Good luck then.
02:35:30 <SunTzu> your scoffage is NOT appreciated
02:35:36 <SunTzu> cease hating
02:35:58 <ASau`> You may not appreciate it, but this is fact: jonesForth is shit.
02:36:23 <ASau`> It is hardly Forth in fact.
02:36:45 <SunTzu> you lack imagination
02:37:00 <SunTzu> and, when you've seen one forth
02:37:13 <ASau`> I've seen enough of them.
02:37:23 <SunTzu> you've seen one.
02:37:31 <SunTzu> you canot compare them to each other
02:38:23 <ASau`> If you start using arbitrary words instead of regular "I", "you", "can", "see" etc,
02:38:30 <ASau`> can you call that English?
02:39:32 <ASau`> That's what jonesForth did basically.
02:40:17 <SunTzu> it has been fixed but i'm not concerned with those idiosyncracies for my project
02:41:11 <ASau`> What for are you going to use it?
02:41:33 <SunTzu> i'm not prepared to tell yet
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08:27:29 <SunTzu> anyone awake?
08:27:38 <SunTzu> well, nm. i'll just mumble
08:28:06 <SunTzu> compile-time, interpret-time, run-time.
08:28:16 <SunTzu> interp-time, run-time
08:28:34 <ASau> Airforce never sleeps.
08:28:35 <SunTzu> scantext, (read) runtime
08:29:02 <SunTzu> read, scan, run
08:29:58 <SunTzu> i cannot see the difference tween macro-time, interpret, and runtimes
08:30:20 <SunTzu> they're all words, what they do when Interpreted is up to the coder
08:30:49 <ASau> It isn't clear what you're talking about.
08:31:04 <SunTzu> if a macro (i'm thinking of lispy type) then they mung what has been compiled or is to be compiled
08:31:13 <SunTzu> (that's why it's called mumbling)
08:31:31 <SunTzu> an inner interp just runs lists[]
08:31:54 <SunTzu> the outter parses, finds, calls interp
08:32:04 <ASau> There're no macros in (more or less traditional) Forth.
08:32:16 <SunTzu> yea, i want to change that
08:32:23 <ASau> What for?
08:32:27 <SunTzu> flexibility
08:32:34 <SunTzu> bc it cn be done
08:32:37 <SunTzu> can
08:32:54 <ASau> You have compiling words, which are more like hygienic macros.
08:33:06 <SunTzu> have to define what a macro is or can do in a forth tho
08:33:10 <SunTzu> ok
08:33:43 <SunTzu> it's just another DSL
08:35:32 <alexand3r> hey
08:35:50 <SunTzu> jes?
08:36:26 <SunTzu> compile-time words could be considered macros
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08:37:19 <SunTzu> lol tagline
08:43:59 <ASau> You must mean "compile-only" words, but they don't exist everywhere.
08:44:33 <ASau> And they don't exist in jonesForth almost for sure.
08:46:08 <SunTzu> i think i'm developing a forth that is stateless
08:46:15 <SunTzu> yea
08:51:40 <Deformative> So do that then.
08:51:49 <SunTzu> nods
08:51:56 <SunTzu> that's what i'm pondering now
08:52:00 <Deformative> I am pretty sure it would be entirely useless though.
08:52:05 <SunTzu> why?
08:52:34 <Deformative> Why would you expect otherwise?
08:52:52 <SunTzu> that's not a supportive response to "entirely useless" 
08:53:01 <SunTzu> pls write a useful thought or criticsim
08:53:29 <SunTzu> input is welcome, baseless statements are not.
08:53:48 <Deformative> Because all you will have is a macro assembler.
08:53:50 <ASau> If you don't understand base, it doesn't make statement baseless.
08:53:51 <Deformative> At best.
08:54:16 <SunTzu> that wouldnt be useless at all: perhaps not an intended outcome, but not useless
08:54:27 <Deformative> The entire thing that makes forth interesting in my opinion is the fact that you can manipulate the compiler.
08:54:37 <SunTzu> symtab lookup is Find; and run.
08:54:43 <SunTzu> that is all that every Forth does.
08:54:55 <SunTzu> and compiling-translation
08:55:04 <Deformative> Mmmm, no.
08:55:08 <SunTzu> why?
08:55:35 <SunTzu> manipulation is part and parcel
08:56:11 <Deformative> Well, the fact that you can control the compiler from source is rather important and what makes it a powerful tool for making a DSL.
08:56:26 <SunTzu> yes
08:56:56 <SunTzu> but that doesnt explain why your reponses are contrary to what i've written
08:57:09 <Deformative> Say the compiler didn't have comments, and you wanted to add comments, the ability to define the ( word is rather impressive.
08:57:16 <SunTzu> ok
08:57:25 <SunTzu> i'm not against any of those things.
08:58:01 <SunTzu> but why should "contrived" *-times be implemented and specified except for one learning what the whole does?
08:58:14 <SunTzu> where * is compile, interpret or run
08:59:05 <SunTzu> in implementation, there is no difference between compile-, interpret- and run-time; a word is parsed from input, found, run.
08:59:24 <ASau> There's difference.
08:59:28 <SunTzu> why?
08:59:40 <ASau> E.g. "+" has several meanings.
08:59:47 <ASau> It can be operation or operation name.
08:59:54 <SunTzu> tht's context-sensitive
08:59:55 <ASau> Those are two distinct things.
09:00:08 <ASau> What is "context"?
09:00:18 <SunTzu> which can be specified by fig-forth style vocabulary tree
09:00:32 <SunTzu> an actual tree with branches of lexicons
09:00:41 <ASau> How do you distinguish between these two cases?
09:01:12 <Deformative> I suppose SunTzu wants to implement an entire stack-based language in the boot strap rather than use meta-circlarity to do it. Which is fine... Just not forth.
09:01:13 <SunTzu> i'm thinking of how a $PATH or oop style parentage could answer that
09:01:18 <ASau> Do you prefix all words with "next-is-noun" and "next-is-verb"?
09:01:32 <SunTzu> i'm not sure yet
09:02:16 <SunTzu> i'd rather build a minimal kernel.com and then compile the rest and then uncore()
09:02:21 <ASau> So, you don't have anything except some vague idea and
09:02:21 <ASau> start blaming everyone around for "baseless statements." Nice.
09:02:29 <SunTzu> who's blaming?
09:02:36 <SunTzu> so far only you two have
09:02:43 <ASau> <SunTzu> input is welcome, baseless statements are not.
09:02:49 <Deformative> [11:52] <SunTzu> input is welcome, baseless statements are not.
09:02:52 <ASau> You started it.
09:02:54 <Deformative> HEh, ASau beat me to it.
09:03:05 <SunTzu> it means that I require substance in responses.
09:03:08 <SunTzu> it's not blame per se
09:03:16 <SunTzu> you two are such a trip
09:03:24 <SunTzu> your help is barely minimal
09:03:39 <Deformative> Asau disagree on mostly everything involving technology. :o
09:03:45 <ASau> It's up to you to understand it.
09:03:45 <SunTzu> i know
09:03:47 <Deformative> Asau and I rather.
09:05:27 <ASau> If you write words you don't understand well, others may understand them better than you.
09:05:47 <SunTzu> i havent written incomprehensible 
09:05:59 <ASau> "Stateless" has particular meaning in Forth context.
09:06:06 <Deformative> Ugh, verilog is frustrating. I think I will need to write a preprocessor for it...
09:06:08 <SunTzu> i know what it means
09:06:12 <Deformative> Unless there already is one.
09:06:15 * Deformative searches.
09:06:30 <ASau> m4
09:06:43 <SunTzu> hot Vargas girls on PBS
09:06:46 <SunTzu> lol
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09:08:28 <Deformative> ASau: Well, the problem is that I find myself using the same wires across many modules.  In each of these modules I need to rewrite out the declarations, it would be nice to have the equivalent of a "struct" from C.
09:08:48 <Deformative> That way I can just pass them all as a large bus, and still be able to access them by name.
09:09:07 <Deformative> I am sure it can be done with m4 somehow, but probably much more complex than it needs to be.
09:09:17 <Deformative> Or I can just live in copy/paste hell.
09:09:44 <Deformative> Having 9 copies of like 27 wires that I need to change every time I make a design change.
09:10:32 <Deformative> I cannot believe verilog has been around for almost 20 years and no one decided "hey! I am stick of rewriting wire names over and over!"
09:10:41 <Deformative> Maybe I am doing it wrong.
09:11:43 <ASau> If cpp fits, use it.
09:11:54 <ASau> It's simpler than m4 anyway.
09:12:45 <Deformative> cpp doesn't fit.
09:13:02 <Deformative> It isn't really something a preprocessor should be doing, it should be a language feature.
09:13:07 <Deformative> It is like "struct" in C.
09:13:13 <ASau> Well...
09:13:28 <ASau> Generate verilog with something then.
09:13:31 <ASau> Like Lisp.
09:13:44 <Deformative> Heh, maybe. ^^
09:14:05 <Deformative> I will be frustrated to have to add an extra step to my synthesis procedure though.
09:14:10 <Deformative> No matter what I do, I lose.
09:14:15 <ASau> make handles that.
09:14:36 <ASau> You have loads of tools around you.
09:14:43 <ASau> Yes, they're not written in Forth.
09:14:48 <ASau> So worse to Forth.
09:18:26 <Deformative> Heh.
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10:33:49 <alexand3r> ASau: Lisp -> HDLs is actually not a bad idea.
10:35:46 <ASau> I hope that I'll get pforth v. 27 by the end of week.
10:36:00 <ASau> Alright, next week.
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