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10:45:34 <ASau> saper: I've got positive reply on FICL.
10:46:23 <ASau> saper: I don't think I have time to deal with it today,
10:46:23 <ASau> remind me on Friday unless you see that changes are committed.
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11:17:46 <LaPingvino> ." Hello!"
11:19:14 <ASau> error: compile only
11:22:00 <LaPingvino> .( Hello! )
11:22:12 <LaPingvino> ." works in gforth btw...
11:22:25 <LaPingvino> I just started to fiddle a bit with forth yesterday
11:22:49 <LaPingvino> what's the median age here more or less?
11:23:46 <ASau> Age doesn't matter.
11:24:15 <bogen> dunno, maybe a number that starts with the first 4 letters of forth?
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11:26:24 <LaPingvino> wow
11:26:26 <LaPingvino> I'm 21
11:26:28 <LaPingvino> :)
11:26:37 <LaPingvino> lisp programmer by day
11:30:06 <mark4> bogen! lol didnt see u sneek in here heh
11:30:45 <LaPingvino> it said he left...
11:31:08 <mark4> oh yea
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11:31:15 <LaPingvino> where are you from?
11:31:27 <mark4> friend of mine from a contract i had in texas that was forth related
11:31:35 <LaPingvino> ah okay
11:37:10 <LaPingvino> is this chat active?
11:37:22 <LaPingvino> and how is the atmosphere?
11:37:31 <LaPingvino> inspiring or dying?
11:41:17 <ASau> The atmosphere is rainy.
11:42:48 <LaPingvino> ah okay
11:52:27 <LaPingvino> who is the youngest here?
11:52:48 <LaPingvino> and what kind of a background (job, school etc) do people have here?
11:54:47 <LaPingvino> a bit silent here :(
11:56:57 <mark4> it is most of the time :/
11:57:04 <LaPingvino> :(
11:57:35 <LaPingvino> I believe there is a lot more activity in Lisp/Scheme/Clojure than in Forth
11:57:43 <mark4> there is
11:57:50 <mark4> forth is a ignored language
11:57:58 <LaPingvino> but it's beautiful :)
11:58:01 <LaPingvino> I like it
11:58:05 <mark4> its perfect
11:58:11 <LaPingvino> don't overdo it
11:58:13 <LaPingvino> :P
11:58:24 <mark4> forth is THE software engineering solution
11:58:27 <mark4>   -- Chuck Moore
11:58:29 <LaPingvino> :P
11:58:40 <LaPingvino> with big language you are not going to win the world
11:59:38 <LaPingvino> Forth is a language you can write very quickly
11:59:46 <LaPingvino> and you can do a lot of things really soon
11:59:52 <LaPingvino> as soon as you have defined them
11:59:55 <LaPingvino> and very concise
12:00:07 <LaPingvino> but for quite some stuff Clojure is better
12:00:21 <LaPingvino> but really I am glad I started to learn about it yesterday
12:01:01 <mark4> aha only just starting!
12:01:15 <mark4> i would plug isforth but people here perfer ans forths :P~!
12:01:33 <LaPingvino> hehe :P
12:01:49 <LaPingvino> I want to learn enough forth to get a basic fluency in writing it
12:02:01 <LaPingvino> and then learn how to implement a forth quickly
12:02:09 <LaPingvino> I just got a nice idea actually
12:02:15 <LaPingvino> well, I already had the idea
12:02:25 <LaPingvino> but I think forth would be great to execute it
12:02:26 <mark4> learn the vocabulary (s) of the language and then learn to apply
12:02:39 <mark4> learn by doing
12:02:44 <LaPingvino> I know
12:02:50 <LaPingvino> I know how to do that
12:03:05 <LaPingvino> I have written some basic ANSI terminal code utilities already :P
12:03:12 <LaPingvino> so I can write terminal games
12:03:14 <LaPingvino> :P
12:03:38 <LaPingvino> I speak 9 spoken languages
12:03:47 <mark4> wow
12:03:47 <LaPingvino> so you bet I know how to learn languages
12:03:51 <mark4> which 9?
12:03:55 <LaPingvino> NL native
12:04:01 <LaPingvino> EN EO PT fluent
12:04:02 <mark4> im bad at spoken language lol
12:04:16 <mark4> trying to learn chinese
12:05:08 <LaPingvino> ES FR DE IO TP communicative
12:07:04 <LaPingvino> mark4: what is your dayjob?
12:07:14 <LaPingvino> mark4: and why Forth?
12:07:19 <mark4> consultant software engineer
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12:07:22 <mark4> real time embedded
12:07:26 <LaPingvino> ah cool :)
12:07:36 <LaPingvino> realtime embedded
12:07:39 <LaPingvino> that's cool stuff
12:07:43 <mark4> because as another forth friend of mine says
12:07:53 <LaPingvino> then forth is really king :P
12:07:56 <mark4> developing embedded applications in C is like opening a can with a rock
12:08:23 <LaPingvino> mark4: sure
12:08:29 <LaPingvino> and not half as fun :P
12:08:45 <LaPingvino> mark4: my fiancee entered the room
12:08:54 <LaPingvino> and she doesn't understand a thing at the moment
12:09:02 <mark4> :)
12:09:10 <LaPingvino> kad_: oi amor :) (é só inglês aqui :()
12:09:11 <mark4> teach her forth as you learn it
12:09:20 <LaPingvino> I am thinking of that
12:09:26 <kad_> eu to vendo
12:09:33 <LaPingvino> I think it's a great first computer language
12:09:42 <LaPingvino> as you can learn about computer internals
12:09:42 <kad_> Hello!
12:09:50 <LaPingvino> but also program more high level
12:09:57 <LaPingvino> and actually understand what's happening
12:10:07 <LaPingvino> kad_ is my fiancee
12:10:26 <mark4> hi L)
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12:16:56 <mark4> what is your primary OS?
12:20:25 <LaPingvino> Ubuntu
12:28:58 <mark4> aha linux then. www.isforth.com :P~
12:29:30 <mark4> tho she does have some bugs ive not been working on :/
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12:53:20 <LaPingvino> probably some day I will write one of my own
12:53:26 <LaPingvino> I see it's not too hard
12:54:44 <LaPingvino> my idea is to create a GUI description DSL
12:54:54 <LaPingvino> it must be fairly easy to make it forth-based
12:55:27 <LaPingvino> to compile to any final form you need, and for example use directly in forth software to make it portable between windows tools and linux tools
12:59:02 <mark4> portability is a MYTH
13:04:46 <mark4> there are very VERY few truely portable applicaions
13:05:59 <mark4> show me some portable soruces and ill show you 2672893652894 different versions of the same thing all interleaved into a cluster fuck unreadable unmaintainable BLOB all in the same sources
13:06:52 <mark4> i refused to put any kind of conditional compilation inside isforth SIMPLY because it encourages exactly taht sort of gordian knot coding
13:13:21 <ASau> Portability is NOT a myth.
13:13:56 <ASau> My Lisp programs run on various systems without modifications.
13:14:40 <mark4> right
13:14:56 <mark4> and i bet they are chock full of #ifdefine bullshit
13:16:02 <ASau> There's no #ifdefine in Lisp.
13:16:23 <ASau> And I don't have it.
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13:25:53 <LaPingvino> mark4: Lisp is as far from the center of your machine as forth is close to it
13:26:08 <LaPingvino> and Lisp has actually good facilities even for file names
13:26:28 <LaPingvino> but what I am looking for is not so much a portable program
13:26:49 <LaPingvino> but a way to define an interface easily
13:26:51 <LaPingvino> forth-style
13:27:00 <LaPingvino> and use it in various systems
13:27:22 <LaPingvino> some kind of GUIsh
13:27:25 <LaPingvino> :P
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13:45:15 <LaPingvino> .
13:46:34 <mark4> wouldnt mind creating an X protocol interface for isforth :)
13:47:28 <LaPingvino> there is some gtk-stuff in gforth as far as I know
13:47:42 <LaPingvino> and some windows apis in some windows forth stuff
13:48:00 <LaPingvino> so a common interface definition language would be neat
13:48:01 <LaPingvino> :)
13:48:11 <mark4> gforth is an abomination to me. 1: its ans forth
13:48:15 <mark4> 2: its written in c
13:48:23 <LaPingvino> then I just define the words differently to the environment
13:48:24 <mark4> ans forth is NOT forth
13:48:55 <mark4> gforth is a MOUNTAIN of a solution for a molehill problem
13:49:01 <LaPingvino> I know
13:49:05 <LaPingvino> but it's fine for learning
13:49:21 <mark4> no actaully i could not disagree more. 
13:49:22 <LaPingvino> I'm not working a lot with hardware stuff
13:49:34 <LaPingvino> so it's nice to have gforth for some fiddling
13:49:46 <mark4> the purpose for gforth is NOT to be useful as a forth tool. its NOT intended to be useful as a forth learning medium
13:49:49 <LaPingvino> but I will look more into your isforth
13:49:54 <LaPingvino> it looks really nice actually
13:49:55 <mark4> its sole intent is to be a 100% compliant ans forth
13:49:58 <mark4> period
13:50:05 <LaPingvino> :P
13:50:12 <mark4> isforth has quirks i cant resolve right now
13:50:18 <LaPingvino> mark4: you don't win battles with pure emotion
13:50:32 <mark4> this battle was lost a long time ago
13:50:37 <LaPingvino> mark4: if you give a bit of space, it's easier to kill in the end ;)
13:50:41 <LaPingvino> do you think so?
13:51:01 <mark4> my primary goal with isforht was ALWAYS as a means of teaching people forth
13:51:05 <LaPingvino> think about it, every generation is doing it differently
13:51:18 <LaPingvino> so you might have lost it to the oldies
13:51:22 <LaPingvino> but not to me
13:51:28 <mark4> the ans forth standard does not describe the forth language
13:51:33 <mark4> but a language of the same name
13:51:36 <mark4>   --- Chuck Moore
13:51:39 <LaPingvino> If I can do even a tidbit for the future
13:51:51 <LaPingvino> you have the moment and influence now to send me right
13:52:04 <LaPingvino> but with pure emotion you kill it for the next generation
13:52:28 <mark4> im just diametrically opposed to 99% of the ans forth standard
13:52:36 <mark4> and their reasoning behind why they did certain things
13:52:37 <LaPingvino> Forth is more of a philosophy than a fixed language
13:52:38 <mark4> for example
13:52:45 <LaPingvino> that's why a standard is not right
13:52:59 <LaPingvino> for lisp it makes sense, and even there it sucks
13:53:06 <LaPingvino> common lisp is a monster
13:53:08 <mark4> ans: lets not define NOT because there are currenty two vastly different things the word NOT can do in different versions of forth
13:53:20 <mark4> in 79 standard forth NOT was identical to 0=
13:53:23 <mark4> BAD
13:53:31 <mark4> the 83 standard came along and FIXED not
13:53:46 <mark4> not became a 1's compliment operation the way its supposed to be
13:54:12 <mark4> ans forth REFUSED to define NOT and discourage its use because fixing all those broken source files that expected a broken NOT is soooooo hard for people
13:54:21 <mark4> so were going to define a new word called "invert"
13:54:28 <mark4> 10 5 = invert if blah balh then
13:54:29 <LaPingvino> if I don't like the way NOT is defined, I can redefine it... :P
13:54:41 <mark4> does not parse the same as the correct ...
13:54:43 <LaPingvino> : not revert ; done :P
13:54:46 <mark4>  10 5 = not if blah blah then
13:54:53 <mark4> invert
13:54:57 <LaPingvino> sorry
13:55:00 <mark4> yes you can do that
13:55:01 <LaPingvino> : not invert ;
13:55:11 <LaPingvino> it's your party
13:55:14 <LaPingvino> nuke that gforth
13:55:18 <LaPingvino> give it a good kick
13:55:26 <LaPingvino> it never stays the same anyway
13:55:34 <mark4> also.  compile and [compile] are soooo difficult for people to learn to use were going to create a new word called postpone that does the job of both
13:55:42 <LaPingvino> wtf
13:55:56 <mark4> "thus relieving you of the responsibility of learning the language" as i said in my kernel sources
13:56:39 <LaPingvino> so you are basically saying ans is like non-natives writing the defining standard of the language of some tribes :P
13:56:53 <mark4> go to www.isforth.com and read what i said uner the "ans" link
13:56:55 <LaPingvino> relax :)
13:56:59 <LaPingvino> I have read it
13:57:09 <LaPingvino> I read links people post
13:57:11 <LaPingvino> :)
13:57:29 <mark4> i am not a fan of ans forths. gforths PRIMARY goal is to be the impossible "100% compliant" ans forth
13:58:17 <mark4> and yes. this whole ans forth fanboy crap angers me :P~
13:58:43 <LaPingvino> you seem bittered
13:58:51 <LaPingvino> with all that ans stuff
13:59:04 <mark4> i do not like the direction the ans team is taking forth
13:59:18 <mark4> the best solution to ANY problem is the simplest solution thereto
13:59:25 <LaPingvino> true :)
13:59:35 <mark4> ans forth is an over complication of as stated... an molehill problem
13:59:59 <LaPingvino> do you know toki pona?
14:00:05 <mark4> nope
14:00:25 <LaPingvino> it's a human language a lot like forth
14:00:26 <LaPingvino> http://en.tokipona.org/wiki/What_is_Toki_Pona%3F
14:00:34 <LaPingvino> I speak it
14:00:53 <mark4> :)
14:00:57 <LaPingvino> a human language with 123 words
14:02:07 <mark4> ok well you can also over simplify heh
14:02:09 <LaPingvino> what is broken in isforth?
14:02:28 <LaPingvino> toki pona is really easy and fun
14:02:29 <mark4> can all concepts that can be expressed in english for example be expressed in toki pona?
14:02:41 <LaPingvino> give me an example
14:02:53 <LaPingvino> of some english stuff you want me to say
14:03:05 <mark4> ok. broken in isforth.  its not able to "fload" very large files.  while i discourge single source files of 4 megs etc etc i dont want to disallow them
14:03:16 <mark4> for some reason the fload segfaults on them
14:03:25 <LaPingvino> ah
14:03:31 <LaPingvino> I see
14:03:33 <mark4> isforth does not yet have an assembler.  im workign on it
14:03:42 <LaPingvino> can it be an addressing problem?
14:03:43 <mark4> with no assembler i cant have a metacompiler
14:03:49 <LaPingvino> that's true
14:04:02 <mark4> LaPingvino, no. it segfaults on the mmap syscall i believe
14:04:11 <mark4> you open the soruce file. you determin its size
14:04:12 <LaPingvino> mmap :/
14:04:28 <mark4> you then tell the linux kernel to mmap this file to a buffer of this size
14:04:32 <LaPingvino> I also have mmap problems sometimes with the sbcl lisp garbage collector
14:04:39 <LaPingvino> I understand
14:04:42 <mark4> one possible problem is im not correctly determining the files size
14:04:50 <LaPingvino> can be
14:05:06 <LaPingvino> how do you do that now?
14:05:09 <LaPingvino> assembly?
14:05:21 <LaPingvino> I am a complete 0 in c btw
14:05:32 <mark4> theres not ONE iota of C in isforth
14:05:36 <LaPingvino> that is, never learned it
14:05:39 <LaPingvino> I know
14:05:44 <mark4> the kernel (core of the compiler) is written in assembler
14:05:48 <mark4> and assembled with nasm
14:05:53 <LaPingvino> just want to know how you implement the mmap
14:05:59 <LaPingvino> don't know how to do that in asm
14:06:04 <mark4> everything outside the kernel is written in pure forth
14:06:13 <LaPingvino> I have seen that
14:06:15 <LaPingvino> I like that
14:06:22 <mark4> i have a mechanism for creating syscalls
14:06:26 <LaPingvino> that makes it easier to learn about it :)
14:06:29 <LaPingvino> ah okay
14:06:37 <mark4> for example if i didnt have a syscall handler for the open syscall i could do
14:06:54 <LaPingvino> can it be that bigger than 4mb overflows?
14:06:54 <mark4> #parameters #syscall syscall sysca-name
14:07:14 <mark4> it would then create a handler for syscall number #syscall whose forth name would be syscall-name
14:07:20 <LaPingvino> I see :)
14:07:21 <mark4> which would expect #parameter parameters
14:07:25 <mark4> 2 123 syscall blah
14:07:41 <mark4> creates a syscall called blah with syscall number 123 that takes 2 parameters
14:08:41 <LaPingvino> cool :)
14:08:44 <LaPingvino> looks clean :)
14:08:45 <mark4> oh another thing thats broken right now is the time/date fetching code
14:08:53 <LaPingvino> that is hard to get right
14:08:58 <mark4> because they modified the formt of the zoneinfo files
14:09:06 <LaPingvino> ah I see
14:09:10 <mark4> i had it right till they modified their format lol
14:09:26 <LaPingvino> do you have your code in source control?
14:09:33 <LaPingvino> preferably in git
14:09:39 <LaPingvino> I would love to hack a bit on it
14:10:00 <mark4> i used to. my svn server died. its no longer under version control and i have a particular dislike for distributed version control lol
14:10:08 <mark4> i like svn :P~
14:10:18 <LaPingvino> ah but github is nice
14:10:19 <mark4> you are always welcome to "hack" on it :)
14:10:26 <LaPingvino> you can access a github repos with svn ;)
14:10:46 <LaPingvino> and work on it like you used to
14:10:48 <mark4> i wont use any global source repository for isforth or any of my projects
14:10:50 <mark4> ever again
14:11:00 <LaPingvino> why?
14:11:07 <LaPingvino> long story?
14:11:16 <mark4> when i started the project i opened a sourceforge account
14:11:22 <LaPingvino> ahhhh :P
14:11:28 <mark4> i spent the next 3 months trying to learn how to manage said account.  
14:11:38 <LaPingvino> sourceforge sucks
14:11:38 <mark4> i deleted that account and in 2 weeks i had the isforth kernel up and running
14:11:48 <LaPingvino> github is nice
14:12:01 <LaPingvino> you can start with git locally without making it public in whatever way
14:12:01 <mark4> www.isforth.com is a server that belongs to a friend of mine
14:12:07 <LaPingvino> and then you do a push :P
14:12:10 <LaPingvino> ah okay
14:12:27 <mark4> i perfer svn to git :)
14:12:35 <mark4> but thers no active repo for isforth atm
14:12:47 <LaPingvino> do you mind if I fork it?
14:12:50 <mark4> but thats ok because ive not been activly developing it for a number of  years now
14:12:59 <mark4> i cant stop you but you cant modify my license :)
14:13:04 <LaPingvino> I know
14:13:06 <LaPingvino> no problem
14:13:13 <mark4> its a modifed LGPL
14:13:14 <LaPingvino> and if you don't like it
14:13:20 <LaPingvino> please tell me why :)
14:13:29 <LaPingvino> I love to listen to people
14:13:36 <LaPingvino> and make live a little happier
14:13:53 <mark4> you can even make isforth ans compliant lol
14:13:58 <LaPingvino> what is the size of isforth actually?
14:14:14 <mark4> of the executable or its sources?
14:14:19 <LaPingvino> I am thinking it would be cool to translate all isforth words to esperanto ;)
14:14:25 <LaPingvino> of the sources
14:14:38 <LaPingvino> I really just want to dabble
14:14:41 <LaPingvino> _why style
14:14:53 <mark4> thers 892k iof soruces in the src directory
14:15:23 <mark4> oh. another bug i know about. 
14:15:33 <mark4> isforth is not "heap randomization friendly"
14:15:41 <mark4> i cant fix this till i am metacompiling
14:15:47 <LaPingvino> "Put away your best practices and make something wonderful!" -- why the lucky stiff
14:15:56 <LaPingvino> ah okay
14:16:07 <mark4> to get the kernel to run you have to turn off heap randomization
14:16:17 <LaPingvino> ah okay
14:16:24 <LaPingvino> thanks for informing me
14:16:29 <LaPingvino> I have to go now
14:16:34 <mark4> k
14:16:38 <LaPingvino> maybe will enter here later this day
14:16:53 <LaPingvino> please smile a bit more
14:16:57 <LaPingvino> you are a cool guy
14:16:58 <mark4> lol
14:17:04 <LaPingvino> thanks!
14:17:17 <mark4> i have anger issues grrrr
14:17:18 <mark4> :)
14:17:24 <LaPingvino> cya :)
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16:15:35 <tathi> mark4: I see you got your semiannual rant out of the way. :-P
16:20:48 <mark4> not entirely
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16:21:54 <LaPingvino> .
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16:24:50 <tathi> Oh, you've got more? :)
16:27:34 <LaPingvino> hello
16:27:47 <tathi> hi
16:28:01 <LaPingvino> where are you from?
16:29:56 <crc> activity in the channel... this is a change ;)
16:30:39 <LaPingvino> hehe
16:30:42 <LaPingvino> beginner
16:30:46 <LaPingvino> in forth that is
16:30:58 <LaPingvino> I'm quite a polyglot already
16:31:14 <LaPingvino> in programming languages as well as spoken languages
16:31:35 <LaPingvino> http://forth.pastebin.ca/1925489
16:32:52 <LaPingvino> tathi and crc, can you present yourselves?
16:33:28 <LaPingvino> I am from the Netherlands, 21 years old and I program Common Lisp at my current job, but my contract is until the end of this week
16:34:04 <LaPingvino> then I go to Brazil, do some websites to get some money and will look for some other job if I cannot make a living myself
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16:38:17 <crc> I'm 27, living in a small town near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in the USA.
16:39:04 <LaPingvino> programming forth since when? me since yesterday, basically
16:40:07 <gordolinux> hello, is it possible to boot colorforth through grub?
16:40:24 <crc> Initially I played with it in 1999, then stopped and resumed using it in December 2001
16:40:40 <crc> gordolinux: not that I'm aware of, other than possibly chainloading it
16:42:03 <gordolinux> thanks, crc
16:42:12 <LaPingvino> crc: how do you usually use it?
16:42:28 <LaPingvino> and are you a student or do you have a job?
16:42:39 <crc> LaPingvino: I use it mostly for personal projects and small games for my kids
16:42:50 <LaPingvino> ah great :)
16:42:54 <crc> I'm employed full time in a non programming capacity
16:42:55 <LaPingvino> I really think it'
16:43:02 <LaPingvino> s not bad for game programming
16:43:05 <LaPingvino> ah okay
16:44:37 <crc> for game programming in an ANS system (swiftforth), I know of http://code.google.com/p/tengoku-engine/
16:45:41 <crc> it's a successor to gcforth and glypher (earlier works done by the same author for game development)
16:49:09 <LaPingvino> ah okay
16:49:14 <LaPingvino> and for linux?
16:49:34 <crc> nothing prepackaged that I know of
16:49:59 <LaPingvino> must be doable :P
16:51:55 <crc> sure. but you need to be prepared to do a fair amount yourself. no big libraries of prepackaged code lying around for forth users to draw on.
16:55:43 <LaPingvino> that's the fun of it isn't it?
16:55:53 <LaPingvino> :)
16:56:10 <LaPingvino> will be a good learning process :
16:56:13 <LaPingvino> :)
16:58:22 <crc> btw, your code has a couple of bugs: line and dropline are leaving values on the stack
16:58:42 <crc> fixed: http://gist.github.com/550534
17:00:01 <tathi> Oops, not paying attention.  I'm in USA, state of Maine, 30 years old, been doing Forth since early 2001, I think.  Did PHP for pay for a couple of years, various other languages for fun.  Currently running a small farm with my folks.
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