00:00:00 --- log: started forth/10.08.23 00:07:54 --- join: scj (syljo361@boneym.mtveurope.org) joined #forth 00:19:51 --- quit: Monev (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 00:20:31 --- quit: ygrek (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 00:49:59 --- quit: uiu (*.net *.split) 00:49:59 --- quit: nighty^ (*.net *.split) 00:49:59 --- quit: crcx (*.net *.split) 00:49:59 --- quit: saper (*.net *.split) 01:00:18 --- join: uiu (~ian@HSI-KBW-095-208-153-002.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) joined #forth 01:00:18 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 01:00:18 --- join: crcx (~crc@li125-93.members.linode.com) joined #forth 01:00:18 --- join: saper (saper@wikipedia/saper) joined #forth 02:06:36 --- join: ygrek (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ygrek) joined #forth 02:22:19 --- join: dom96 (~dom96@unaffiliated/dom96) joined #forth 02:41:21 --- quit: ygrek (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 03:59:45 --- quit: nighty__ (Remote host closed the connection) 03:59:48 --- quit: dom96 (Quit: Leaving) 04:45:31 --- join: Monev (~nal@adsl-64-237-232-214.prtc.net) joined #forth 06:14:15 --- quit: i__ (Quit: leaving) 07:39:55 * ASau` sighs. 07:40:22 And they claim that Forth programmers are clever... 07:59:00 --- quit: mark4 (Remote host closed the connection) 08:10:04 ASau`: how's that? 08:13:41 --- join: dom96 (~dom96@unaffiliated/dom96) joined #forth 08:17:03 There're firm believers in SF/TF books. 08:17:09 Like in old and new testaments. 08:28:40 I like them actually, and I think you need to read them in the context of their time, but that of course does not say anything against your argument 08:32:08 Modern programmer should know a "bit" more than hardly state of art as of 30 years ago. 08:33:36 agreed. 09:12:43 --- join: i__ (~none@unaffiliated/i--/x-3618442) joined #forth 11:50:07 should Forth programmers read SF/TF? yes. should they treat them like the damn Bible? not necessarily. they are far from the last word on the language 11:50:23 heck, we are still awaiting a new Forth standard (200x) 11:50:32 which actually should be called 201x now... but eh 11:50:38 ASau' hates everything that's not something he actively likes. 11:50:50 alexand31: I've noticed that. he's critiqued some of my code 11:51:02 --- nick: alexand31 -> alexand3r 11:51:09 yah, he'll do that. 11:51:34 which I'll admit might not be my absolute best... but I did make an attempt to factor it 11:52:00 I like TF,. the code is old and crusty, but all the ideas are still valid. 11:52:05 and admittedly, does its job well (now that I've fixed the logic errors in it) 11:52:29 IMSO Forth programmers should forget SF/TF ASAP. 11:53:31 They bring illusion of Forth being oh-so-effective. 11:54:21 ASau: what do you actually like about Forth? 11:55:02 Only the simplicity of writing compiler. 11:55:11 I'm experimenting with its scalability. 11:55:34 what's good about a compiler for a language that sucks? or are you just messing around. 11:55:36 It's like doing sums for fun. 11:55:52 And that's the only use for it for now. 11:56:10 If you want to make it reasonable, you have to go the long road. 11:56:35 cool. 12:01:40 I've got an idea how to perform type inference on Forth source. 12:01:50 But this requires further elaboration. 12:17:07 --- join: tathi (~josh@dsl-216-227-91-166.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 12:20:01 type inference on Forth code is kinda fun...I played with that a little once. 12:25:38 tathi: yoh 12:30:13 hey 12:30:22 how goes it? 12:32:37 ASau: similar to StrongForth, or using some other mechanism? 12:32:54 --- nick: TreyB_ -> TreyB 12:33:17 Does StrongForth infer stack effects? 12:33:35 Just concatenates them, basically. 12:34:07 That's my understanding as well. 12:34:21 It requires stack comments that describe inputs and infers outputs. 12:35:25 Actually it may validate that the comment outputs match its inferences. 12:36:54 He even support polymorphic word names based on input types. 12:36:57 tathi: it goes good, just hacking code. 12:36:59 supports 12:41:54 Yeah, it validates the comment outputs. 12:42:19 Took me a couple of minute to figure out how to run it so I could check. 12:43:46 He's got a mostly ANSI implementation that turns gforth into StrongForth in addition to the "native" DOS version. 12:44:03 But I haven't looked at it in many months. 12:44:34 Yeah. I forgot you had to include corelib.sf to get much functionality. 12:45:36 I've often thought something like StrongForth + HolonForth would make a spiffy environment, but I don't have enough play time for it. 12:46:35 And I forgot that he didn't use the ANSI type abbreviations; he has UNSIGNED INTEGER ADDRESS etc. 12:46:41 Yeah, that could be interesting. 12:46:56 HolonForth is the source code management thingy in TCL? 12:47:02 Factor gets pretty close, with the exception of the remote/umbilical debugging thing. 12:47:51 I don't think he used TCL, but I haven't looked into it for a long time. 12:49:03 Oh, right. The original was another DOS program. His current thing (HolonX) is in TCL. 12:49:20 Really? I'll have to look that up. 12:50:42 http://www.holonforth.com/tools/products.htm 13:34:10 personally... if I want type checking I'll use some other language 13:34:34 lack of type checking is something I consider a feature of Forth. leave it up to the programmer to remember what something is, and if he wants to add 2 to the letter "A" let him 13:34:36 he has a reason 13:49:52 Adding 2 to "A" may be reasonable. 13:49:59 Adding "A" to "B" is hardly so. 13:50:20 That's why types matter. 13:50:45 Types matter because of the way compilers are constructed 13:51:06 No, that's not because of compilers. 13:51:25 Types matter because of the logic involved. 13:51:47 It's compilers that are constructed to match the logic, not the vice versa. 13:52:08 when I see how a modern C compilers is able to stuff C struct by value in few registers on amd64 platform, I think I like Forth better :) 13:52:21 C is irrelevant. 13:52:30 Comparing to C is even less so. 13:52:45 That's what Forth programmers refuse to understand. 13:53:16 Comparing to technologies of half a century ago is completely irrelevant, 13:53:28 the field has changed very much since then. 13:53:51 well, passing struct (not a pointer) is a relatively new "feature" 13:54:15 I think gdb still cannot really copy with such function parameters 13:54:22 Yeah, feature is new, concept is old still. 13:54:37 what's relevant then, Zend virtual machine? 13:54:39 That just shows how C lags behind the technology. 13:54:58 Dependent types, that's what matters nowadays. 13:55:49 But those old farts can't grok Hindley--Milner still. 13:56:37 They repeat their usual mantra how Forth compares to C. 13:58:53 --- quit: crc (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 14:00:36 --- join: crc (~charlesch@184.77.185.20) joined #forth 14:07:28 --- quit: scj (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 14:16:32 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 16:17:59 --- quit: gnomon (Read error: Operation timed out) 16:18:15 --- join: gnomon (~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 17:13:01 --- quit: gnomon (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 17:13:18 --- join: gnomon (~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 17:36:17 --- quit: gnomon (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 17:36:36 --- join: gnomon (~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 17:45:52 --- quit: segher (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 17:49:15 --- join: segher (~segher@84-105-60-153.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 18:01:07 --- join: scj__ (syljo361@boneym.mtveurope.org) joined #forth 18:29:05 --- quit: bogen (Remote host closed the connection) 18:52:05 --- quit: gogonkt (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 18:52:44 --- quit: tathi (Quit: leaving) 18:53:22 --- join: gogonkt (~info@113.105.206.44) joined #forth 19:26:38 --- quit: dom96 (Remote host closed the connection) 21:27:29 --- join: ygrek (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ygrek) joined #forth 21:36:07 --- quit: crc (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 21:37:02 --- join: crc (~charlesch@184.77.185.20) joined #forth 22:11:56 --- quit: dinya_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:18:12 --- join: dinya_ (~Denis@92.255.128.235) joined #forth 22:22:49 --- quit: scj__ (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 22:39:37 --- join: scj__ (syljo361@boneym.mtveurope.org) joined #forth 23:23:32 --- quit: ygrek (Remote host closed the connection) 23:24:18 --- join: ygrek (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ygrek) joined #forth 23:41:25 --- quit: gnomon (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 23:41:42 --- join: gnomon (~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/10.08.23