00:00:00 --- log: started forth/10.06.25 00:02:56 --- quit: malyn (Quit: Disconnecting from stoned server.) 00:03:09 --- join: malyn (~malyn@unaffiliated/malyn) joined #forth 00:10:35 nottwo: btw I got it to work on the arduino thanks to andy kirby 00:11:04 nottwo: I have upgraded to a bigger atmega though while I was at it 00:37:44 C-Keen: cool! 00:40:32 C-Keen: i'd like to come up with some sort of setup like SLIME where i can use a real editor to interact with the repl & save my code locally as well. haven't found a good way to get code out of amforth 00:41:21 If you don't intend to support further interaction 00:41:42 like querying dictionary from Emacs, it isn't very hard. 00:46:39 eventually it would be nice to have autocomplete & such based on the current dictionary 00:47:26 Like DragonForth? 00:47:47 Well... 00:47:56 DragonForth did it natively. 00:47:58 i'm not familiar with DragonForth.. i'll look it up 00:48:15 I think that I have left it in broken state. 00:48:16 cool, for palmos! 00:48:29 If you really need it, I can try to revive it. 00:48:46 Maybe I have some uncommitted fixes around. 00:48:51 oh, that was your project? 00:49:01 posted by asau 1137 days ago :) 00:49:07 Not mine originally, but I took it up. 00:49:17 Yes, that was quite a long time ago. 00:49:20 i have an old m105 sitting around gathering dust... 00:49:22 PalmOS is dead. 00:49:33 Unfortunatly. 00:49:48 yah 00:50:14 There's one obstacle to solve though 00:50:29 I don't have hardware, and emulator is broken. 00:50:48 C++ has changed meanwhile. 00:51:17 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote host closed the connection) 00:51:20 i was trying to get the 3.5 sdk headers recently and couldn't find them anywhere. palm doesn't distribute it anymore & i lost my copy in a computer move years ago 00:51:45 I may have something in backups. 00:51:59 The problem is that I don't have access to them this month. 00:52:21 You can try to remind me by mail or here once a week, 00:52:41 sometime I'll get my workhorse from warranty service, 00:52:47 ok, thanks! 00:52:47 and we'll see. 00:53:02 i need to get to bed, so g'night! 00:53:06 Good night. 01:04:34 nottwo: ah I see if one could implement see on amforth it could be done via script 01:10:45 ? 01:12:19 ASau: I was referring to 'I haven't found a good way to get code out of AmForth' by nottwo 01:14:06 Ah. 01:16:07 Is there any accessible emulator for that hardware? 01:25:07 yes, the free as in beer avrstudio 4 can do that 01:25:10 http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=2725 03:10:59 --- join: ncv (~neceve@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 04:11:41 ha! My Starting Forth 1st edition arrived :) 04:12:20 Museum piece. 04:12:53 and a nice one at that! 04:13:20 I don't regard it as such. 04:13:25 Alright. 04:13:59 Oh I am not talking about the content :) 04:14:03 I am a book addict 04:14:19 "Packrat"? :D 04:14:26 --- quit: cataska (Quit: leaving) 04:14:35 nah I carefully select my victims :) 04:15:26 ASau: as for your disagreement, I am all ears if you care to elaborate. I don't have a strong opinion about the book, just almost every source on the net tells you to start with it 04:16:54 C-Keen: and the latter is the problem. 04:17:21 SF is almost 30 years old. 04:17:33 Long time for any industry and especially for IT. 04:18:02 The world changed very much since then, and this has to be addressed. 04:18:50 I agree 04:18:50 Repeating the arguments (even if valid ones) of past doesn't work. 04:19:17 Some of them were proved invalid in between. 04:19:29 I would assume that the approach of forth still stays the same 04:19:50 In addition there appeared other problems that should be addressed somehow. 04:20:07 even if some things where invented to get by obstacles that are no longer there (addressing modes / performance / memory) 04:20:13 Sometimes the very approach should be adjusted to new realities. 04:20:30 so what's the alternative? 04:21:04 I'm afraid, that the alternative is to throw old books away and think yourself. 04:21:36 Read conference reports, read articles from outside Forth community. 04:22:16 Unfortunatly most part of modern Forth community is old farts. 04:22:50 They may have done good things in past, but that was in past. 04:24:05 So the problem you see is that noone will use it because newer schemes aren't adressed and the problems it solved in the past do not exist anymore? 04:24:46 I don't say they don't exist, 04:25:23 I just want to point that there're better tools to address those problems than stagnated Forth. 04:25:43 Note, that I don't mean it cannot be done better in Forth, 04:26:05 just not in Forth from 20 or 30 years ago. 04:27:14 The impression that I have with Forth is a bit like with the scheme programming language. There is no Forth programming language, forth is an idea. And people (re-)use the idea to fit their own needs 04:27:44 The problem is that if it is just an idea, it isn't language. 04:28:10 Is that a problem? 04:28:34 Those "Forth" methods were analysed and reused in other languages as well. 04:28:37 It just means in practise that there is not *the* Forth system around 04:28:53 And Forth community continues to believe it is something specific to Forth. 04:31:13 So what would you change if you could? 04:31:14 Scheme shares the same disease with Forth: it is relatively easy to patch up toy implementation. 04:32:02 true 04:32:14 OTOH, Scheme has real support between clever people in academia and engineering. 04:33:13 any serious university will have touched scheme and lisp because it is part of CS history and development. Forth kinda sneaked in through the backdoor and hid under the kitchen table 04:33:14 This makes it possible to overcome childish attitude and create real systems like PLT, Gambit, or Chicken. 04:33:57 Postfix notation and open stack is part of CS history as well: 04:34:28 there're POP-2/POP-11, dc, PostScript. 04:34:35 true and it has been picked up by others 04:35:22 But there's big problem with low qualification among engineers using Forth. 04:35:46 Mind you I am currently not in a position to say much about forth as I just started writing my own words. 04:36:04 Once in past they accepted this attitude to solve problems by force: 04:36:13 rewrite, rewrite, rewrite. 04:37:15 ah I see 04:37:32 Any thought that there may exist tools that simplify this rewriting 04:37:41 is quite strange. 04:38:27 well meta programming is an old concept and mainstream is picking it up just now 04:38:34 And any theoretical investments into handling real world problems are simply ignored. 04:39:08 Sometimes any unorthodox practical opinions are ignored either. 04:39:27 E.g. John Doty's unified numbers. 04:39:29 I gathered this from comp.lang.forth 04:40:42 Oh, comp.lang.forth. 04:56:49 ;) 05:22:43 ASau: so what do you do with forth? 05:24:09 Nothing for now. 05:24:31 I'm fixing pForth to use it in upcoming (but suspended for now) project. 05:27:47 I see 06:15:33 --- quit: codemonsta (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 07:07:33 --- join: kar8nga (~kar8nga@91-115-210-230.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 09:15:53 --- quit: ASau (Quit: off) 09:29:08 --- join: qFox (~C00K13S@5356B263.cable.casema.nl) joined #forth 09:44:15 --- join: Quartus1 (~Quartus1@74.198.8.58) joined #forth 10:31:55 --- join: ASau (~user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth 10:47:12 --- quit: ncv (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 12:35:14 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote host closed the connection) 12:52:21 --- quit: Quartus1 (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 14:30:58 --- quit: LionMadeOfLions (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 14:39:27 --- join: TR2N (email@89.180.129.244) joined #forth 15:20:02 --- join: LionMadeOfLions (~LionMadeO@70.114.156.242) joined #forth 15:36:05 --- quit: LionMadeOfLions (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 15:50:51 --- join: LionMadeOfLions (~LionMadeO@70.114.156.242) joined #forth 16:46:36 --- quit: qFox (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 18:22:32 --- part: TR2N left #forth 21:36:16 --- quit: crc (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 21:36:54 --- join: crc (~charlesch@184.77.185.20) joined #forth 22:11:26 --- join: kar8nga (~kar8nga@91-114-236-193.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 22:30:28 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote host closed the connection) 22:50:05 --- join: ncv (~neceve@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 23:30:57 --- quit: segher (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 23:31:49 --- join: segher (~segher@84-105-60-153.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/10.06.25