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05:47:16 <KipIngram-zzz> He meant he was missing all of those, individually.
05:48:09 <KipIngram-zzz> He'd forgotten stack manipulation operations in general.
05:48:13 --- nick: KipIngram-zzz -> KIpIngram
05:53:07 <KIpIngram> Deformative: I thought 16 was awfully aggressive.
05:53:13 --- nick: KIpIngram -> KipIngram
05:54:09 <KipIngram> I tried to minimize my opcode count also, obviously, and pretty quickly decided it was going to have to be 32.  But I think you'll wind up happy - this gives you enough codes to include some "beyond minimal" instructions that will optimize your performance.
05:59:30 <gogonkt> good evening :)
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08:36:22 <Deformative> KipIngram: Yeah, it just sure would have been nice to not have those extra 2 bits to try to figure out what to do with.
08:36:33 <Deformative> I suppose I can always drop my word size to 30.
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10:54:54 <KipIngram> I think those bits are very handy.
10:55:13 <KipIngram> I have one such bit, and I used it to differentiate between opcode cells and call / jump cells.
11:01:53 <KipIngram> You have two - you can be even more clever.  I have ideas if you are interested.
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11:23:54 <KipIngram> Deformative: Oh, I just saw your note on the success of the debouncer.  Cool - you have a new trick for your bag now. :-)
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11:47:14 <Deformative> Be right back, I am going to see if restarting konversation fixes the fonts.
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11:52:39 <Deformative> Hmm, still doesn't look quite right.
11:52:41 <Deformative> [14:51] <Deformative> Letters like 'A' with large diagnal lines look aweful.
11:53:06 <Deformative> My current challenge is to try to get my M9k blocks to be used as ram.
11:59:59 <KipIngram> If Altera is like other venders then there will be a document that tell you exactly how to write the Verilog that does that.
12:02:51 <Deformative> There is a "megafuction wizard" which I think I need to use.
12:02:53 <Deformative> Not sure though.
12:02:57 <Deformative> I need to look into it.
12:10:05 <Deformative> Oh, changed my chat font to courier new.
12:10:07 <Deformative> Much better.
12:10:19 <Deformative> It would still be nicer if I could turn some aliasing junk off, but this is ok.
12:12:54 <Deformative> Courier is the best chat font IMO.
12:13:03 <Deformative> Possibly the best font overall, ever. :D
12:13:17 <Deformative> Actually, no.
12:13:24 <Deformative> It isn't so nice for programming.
12:20:24 <Deformative> Maybe the problem is with the DPI or something..
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13:29:09 <crcx> Deformative: I prefer Monaco for monospace (chat, terminal, coding, etc)
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13:36:48 <Deformative> For coding I like dejavu mono.
13:36:59 <Deformative> For chat and reading I like courier.
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13:37:10 <crcx> I hate courier
13:37:43 <Deformative> Why?
13:38:10 <crcx> I find it difficult to read
13:38:32 <Deformative> Hm, not for me.
13:38:40 <crcx> and 0's aren't clearly defined apart from O
13:38:52 <Deformative> That's valid.
13:42:59 <Deformative> For reading and chat I like serif.
13:43:10 <Deformative> The serifs make it easier to track what line I am reading.
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15:15:04 <KipIngram> Hmmm, I have my console windows set to use Monospace 9.
15:16:59 <KipIngram> Deformative: In one of Chuck Moore's processors (C18?) he uses fewer bits for the last opcode slot.  Three instead of five.  The other two bits get forced to some value.
15:17:08 <KipIngram> That means, of course, only eight opcodes are allowed for that slot.
15:18:12 <Deformative> Hmm...
15:18:17 <KipIngram> You could have four 5-bit opcodes and three 4-bit opcodes.  It wouldn't be hard for the hardware to keep up with; it knows what slot it's looking at and it would be easy to force the last bit.
15:18:28 <KipIngram> The compiler, though, would have a lot to juggle knowing what was allowed where.
15:19:08 <KipIngram> I don't care for the idea myself, but I thought I'd pass it along anyway.
15:19:24 <Deformative> The D programming language had a cool api for something like this.
15:19:29 <Deformative> The "bit array."
15:19:35 <Deformative> Too bad they axed it.
15:19:54 <Deformative> I was thinking about using huffman encoding for variable sized opcodes.
15:20:01 <KipIngram> Sounds like something split and join would be good for working with.
15:20:05 <Deformative> But static just uses SO much less logic.
15:20:14 <KipIngram> Yes.
15:20:31 <Deformative> Less logic is usually better.
15:20:32 <KipIngram> I was shooting for *brutal* simplicity with my processor.
15:20:50 <KipIngram> That and something that "seemed like Forth" to me as much as possible.
15:22:39 <Deformative> Well, if the core is small, it can be produced very cheaply, and you could throw some more expensive sram on there with it.
15:23:02 <Deformative> That is the model I wanted to achieve with my prototype. 
15:23:16 <Deformative> I mean, it will never reach production of course, but might as well develop as if it could.
15:27:24 <KipIngram> Yeah, I've started studying VLSI design, downloaded software for it, etc.  Don't know why - nothing I'm doing is really anything new and profound.  But I just think it would be satisfying to say I'd designed and produced my own processor.
15:27:40 <KipIngram> Mosis makes it potentially affordable even for an individual.
15:28:12 <Deformative> I would be interested in VLSI as a focus for my education if it didn't require so much EE.
15:28:19 <Deformative> I have too much background in CS already.
15:28:38 <KipIngram> Yeah, I am an EE so it's a good fit.
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15:30:33 <Deformative> It's annoying.
15:30:46 <Deformative> I have enough for 16k of 32 bit words.
15:30:52 <Deformative> But I can only get 8k it looks lile.
15:30:55 <alex4nder> hey
15:31:00 <Deformative> Hey alex4nder.
15:31:14 <KipIngram> Why?
15:31:15 <alex4nder> sup Deformative 
15:33:05 <Deformative> KipIngram: Not sure, the megafunction wizard isn't giving me the option.
15:33:35 <KipIngram> That sounds like something you will figure out.
15:34:45 <Deformative> It only gives me the option for using 32 m9k blocks or 64 m9k blocks.  I have 56 of them.
15:36:28 <KipIngram> Oh.  I don't think you can split those in a way that's not a multiple of 9.
15:38:01 <Deformative> It generates a module that says "automatically generated, do not edit!"  I wonder if I edit it, perhaps I can get more blocks.
15:38:03 <Deformative> xD
15:38:28 <alex4nder> ...
15:38:32 <alex4nder> chuck moore is losing his house
15:38:39 <KipIngram> Yeah.  Like I said, there should be a document somewhere that tells you how to instantiate in Verilog the absolutely basic memory block.  The fundamental primitive.
15:38:45 <KipIngram> Then you can build those up any way you want.
15:38:52 <KipIngram> Ouch.
15:39:20 <KipIngram> It's ironic - as beautiful a thing as Forth is it's going to be a failure in terms of producing wealth for its architects.
15:39:26 <alex4nder> yup.
15:39:34 <KipIngram> I think they just took a fundamentally wrong approach in leveraging it.
15:39:41 <alex4nder> again, and again, and again.
15:39:42 <KipIngram> They tried to keep too much too secret. 
15:39:49 <KipIngram> Yes, indeed.
15:39:52 <KipIngram> Fool me once...
15:40:25 <alex4nder> I think he needs to just release it as open, in hopes he gets some traction.
15:40:34 <KipIngram> I don't know that I'd call any of those guys patent trolls (then again...), but they certainly share certain attitudes with the trolls.
15:41:08 <KipIngram> The image of an old prospector back in the 19th century jealously protecting his claim comes to mind.
15:41:45 <Deformative> I cannot find any paper from altera about using m9k blocks.
15:42:09 <Deformative> Well, I can.
15:42:18 <Deformative> But it basically just says "use the megafuction wizard"
15:42:59 <KipIngram> :-(
15:43:31 <Deformative> Crap, the compilation report says 0 memory bits used.
15:43:33 <Deformative> So something didn't work.
15:43:38 <Deformative> But it still compiled.
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15:43:43 <Deformative> I hate that about HDLs.
15:43:50 <Deformative> Something could not work at all, but it compiles anyway.
15:44:26 <KipIngram> So do we think Chuck was this way himself, or did he attach himself to a bunch of stingy types?  He seems focused in other directions himself.
15:44:56 <alex4nder> KipIngram: the technology will die, without the world knowing about it, let alone anyone making any money from it.
15:45:32 <KipIngram> Deformative: Have you looked at the "Insert Template" dialog?
15:46:32 <Deformative> Had no idea such a thing existed.
15:46:33 <Deformative> Url?
15:48:15 <Deformative> I need new hotkeys, win+arrow is rather difficult to do with one hand.
15:48:21 <Deformative> (for changing desktop)
15:48:56 <KipIngram> www.altera.com/literature/hb/qts/qts_ii51007.pdf
15:49:15 <KipIngram> Have you swapped your control and capslock keys?
15:49:39 <KipIngram> If you have then ctrl-; for workspace left and ctrl-' for workspace right work great.  That's how I'm set up.
15:50:06 <KipIngram> Swapping control and capslock is a standard trick for emacs power users; you use the control key a lot in emacs and you need it close at hand.  Or close at pinky.
15:50:19 <Deformative> Page not found
15:50:55 <Deformative> Well, I need left, right, up, and down.
15:51:05 <Deformative> Because up and down will bring my focus window with me to the next desktop.
15:51:11 <KipIngram> Google for altera hdc coding style insert template
15:51:16 <KipIngram> first result
15:51:35 <KipIngram> Ok.  I don't need that.
15:52:20 <Deformative> I don't either, on linux.
15:52:28 <Deformative> But I don't have edge scrolling on windows.
15:52:29 <Deformative> So I need it.
15:52:53 <KipIngram> The really sad thing is that if someone did pick up Forth concepts and commercialize them successfully then this crowd we're talking about would immediately materialize out of the woodwork and claim ownership.
15:53:05 <KipIngram> In spite of having failed for decades to get anywhere with the ideas.
15:55:26 <KipIngram> And by gosh the thing they *would* know how to do would be to beat you to death with lawyers.
15:57:56 <Deformative> Hah! I got it.
15:58:08 <KipIngram> What worked?
15:58:29 <Deformative> I was using empty wires to the ram, just to test, so the compiler was optimizing it away.
15:58:41 <Deformative> I put real wires on there, now it says I am using memory.
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16:03:34 <Deformative> I am trying to figure  out how it came up with the number it did though.
16:03:38 <Deformative> Makes no sense really.
16:03:46 <Deformative> I am using 10240 bits.
16:03:51 <Deformative> Probably just some optimization or something.
16:07:20 <Deformative> I don't get it.  Did chuck moore end up poor?
16:08:33 <KipIngram> alex4nder says he's losing his house.
16:08:39 <KipIngram> So, yes, I guess so.
16:08:59 <Deformative> Did he ever make money?
16:09:12 <KipIngram> I suppose some, but I don't think he ever "got wealthy."
16:09:39 <KipIngram> His approach to things always seemed like the kind that called for a "benefactor."  Someone that funded him just because they believed he had something to offer.
16:09:45 <Deformative> His blog doesn't make sense.
16:09:48 <KipIngram> The world doesn't have many of those anymore.
16:09:53 <KipIngram> He's a different kind of guy.
16:10:36 <KipIngram> But the honest-to-god truth is that you just can't spend a year optimizing 200 lines of code down to 190 and make it in today's dog-eat-dog world.
16:10:56 <KipIngram> No matter how cool and amazing those 190 lines are.
16:11:23 <KipIngram> You have to know when to say "good enough - ship it."
16:11:46 <Deformative> Hmm.
16:14:09 <KipIngram> However, I do think there's value in having some people, who excel at it, sitting off somewhere honing things like that.  It's just a shame that our economy isn't set up to reward them.
16:14:20 <KipIngram> I have enormous respect for everything Chuck has created.
16:14:33 <KipIngram> And it's a damn shame that he's fallen onto hard times.
16:18:14 <Deformative> I don't know...
16:18:26 <Deformative> Nothing he made other than forth seems terribly useful to me.
16:18:35 <Deformative> I mean, his cpu only support forth.
16:18:44 <Deformative> Not even a standard compliant forth.
16:18:55 <Deformative> If C could be compiled to them, that would be a little different I thin,
16:18:57 <Deformative> think
16:19:35 <Deformative> Well, I have some stuff to do today.
16:19:37 <Deformative> So talk to you later.
16:21:39 <KipIngram> Hmmm.  All Chuck Moore did was Forth...  Isn't that enough?
16:22:57 <KipIngram> Yes, later.  Time for other things for me too.
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