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10:03:20 <Deformative> KipIngram: Altera emailed me this morning.
10:03:30 <Deformative> They told me I can order it form Terasic in taiwan.
10:03:53 <Deformative> Which I do not want to do, since the shipping offsets the academic discount.
10:03:59 <Deformative> So I think I will just order from digikey.
10:04:17 <Deformative> I sent an email to them asking if I could get the discount anywhere closer, but I doubt they will say yes.
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12:54:38 <KipIngram> Hmmm.  ! is a very annoying word.
12:55:12 <KipIngram> I'd really like to add it to my processor as a fundamental primitive (I currently use address register based operations, !a+ and !b+).
12:55:22 <KipIngram> But that would be the only primitive that popped two cells from the stack.
12:56:00 <KipIngram> So it adds the need for an additional data path into each level of the stack, and thus a whole new level of logic, and thus slower top-speed operation.
12:56:24 <KipIngram> Not *just* when I need it, but *always*.  On every operation that manipulates the data stack.
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13:47:31 <Deformative> Hello all.
13:49:13 <KipIngram> Hey.
13:50:45 <Deformative> I am ordering from digikey after my exam tonight. ^^
13:51:38 <Deformative> I think I am going to experiment with stochastic algorithms more than actual architecture.
13:51:39 <Deformative> Heh.
13:55:12 <KipIngram> Are you familiar with basic digital electronics stuff?  Logic design, state machines, etc. etc.?
13:56:37 <Deformative> Yes.
13:56:53 <Deformative> I am quite good at it apparently.
13:57:15 <Deformative> I around top 1% in my digital logic course.
13:59:24 <KipIngram> Ok, good.  I just don't want you to fall into the trap of having Verilog be your only "view" of hardware.
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14:00:54 <Deformative> Heh, no worries.
14:01:10 <Deformative> I am fascinated by verilog.
14:01:20 <KipIngram> Whatever you buy, print out that picture of the CLB, logic element, or whatever, and learn it up one side and down the other.  Know every signal path, every option, every prop delay, etc.
14:01:31 <Deformative> I have done quite a bit of programming language research and design, but I have never seen a hdl before this.
14:01:37 <Deformative> SO I am real excited about the possibilities.
14:01:47 <KipIngram> Make that cell your best friend.
14:01:56 <Deformative> Will do.
14:02:03 <Deformative> I will be chatting in here a lot when I get my device.
14:02:12 <Deformative> It will be after exams and stuff, so I will have plenty of time.
14:02:21 <Deformative> Until I go to qualcomm, when I will likely be busy again,.
14:02:23 <KipIngram> Ok, watering hole time.  English pub or American sports bar?
14:02:52 <KipIngram> Waitresses are cuter at the pub.
14:03:04 <KipIngram> Hmmm.  Beer is better too.
14:03:12 <KipIngram> Think I just decided.
14:05:56 <Deformative> Hah.
14:06:22 <Deformative> Irish pub > english pub.
14:06:27 <Deformative> Always has better food.
14:34:20 <Deformative> Digital psudo random number generators are neat.
14:34:56 <Deformative> I wonder if there is a simpler way to do it with the board I am getting.
14:35:12 <Deformative> Some of the extra hardware on there or something.
14:35:39 <Deformative> Well, even a seeded random number generator is probably enough for what I need.
14:35:52 <Deformative> So it can be rather deterministic.
14:54:01 <KipIngram> I'd just use a pseudorandom bitstream generator.  Doesn't get a lot simpler than that.
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17:25:16 <Deformative> I am about to make a purchase.
17:25:20 <Deformative> ^^
17:53:21 <KipIngram> Cool.
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22:06:52 <Deformative> Hello.
22:19:02 <KipIngram> Hey.
22:19:46 <Deformative> I ordered my DE0.
22:19:48 <Deformative> ^^
22:19:57 <Deformative> Almost wish I orded from tailand now.
22:20:01 <Deformative> I had to pay sales tax.
22:20:05 <Deformative> But whatever, it is just a few bucks.
22:21:20 <KipIngram> Right.  It will come sooner, you'll be happy.
22:21:46 <Deformative> Well, I sent it home.
22:21:54 <Deformative> So I won't get it until I return home regardless.
22:22:03 <Deformative> I am still at the dorm until the 29th.
22:22:26 <KipIngram> Oh - ok.
22:22:44 <Deformative> This is intense: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FYCVG7NTOnc/SuxwfxDsicI/AAAAAAAAAE4/1TfbdJT63_4/s1600-h/milk4.png
22:22:52 <Deformative> Too bad my fpga only has 12 bit color... :(
22:24:56 <KipIngram> I'm trying to figure out how to copy Barnes & Noble nook books from my nook to my wife's.
22:25:32 <KipIngram> From what I can tell it can be done using the "side loading" feature.
22:25:35 <Deformative> If I get good at this, I would get a better fpga to do photon mapping on anyway, or I could get a few digital-to-analogs and make my won vga connector.
22:25:49 <Deformative> I see.
22:25:51 <KipIngram> Sure - this is your first system.
22:26:03 <Deformative> I am waiting for mirasol before I get an e-reader.
22:26:14 <KipIngram> Mirasol sounds awesome.
22:26:30 <KipIngram> I think you mentioned 30 hour battery life or something like that and I salivated.
22:26:45 <Deformative> Heh, yeah.
22:27:39 <KipIngram> When?  When do we expect mirasol?
22:27:43 <KipIngram> In netbooks.
22:28:04 <Deformative> Not sure.
22:28:09 <Deformative> It is still prototype.
22:28:20 <Deformative> But qualcomm goes from prototype to product pretty quick.
22:28:33 <Deformative> So probably two years or so would be my guess.
22:28:59 <Deformative> I think it will be in the e-readers a year or so before netbooks.
22:29:04 <KipIngram> :-|  Seems long, but oh well.
22:29:37 <KipIngram> I'm glad to have my nook if mirasol is still a year out.
22:29:56 <KipIngram> I've read more books in the last couple of months (since I got my nook) than I did for *years* prior to that.
22:30:00 <KipIngram> Definitely a good change.
22:30:16 <KipIngram> Now I've got a swoopy leather cover for it; it feels like a real book.
22:30:35 <Deformative> Heh.
22:30:38 <Deformative> Sounds great.
22:30:52 <Deformative> I really should buy such a thing sooner or later.
22:31:27 <KipIngram> Well, you are in school, so you have lots of school-related reading to do.  It's probably easier for you to wait a year than it would have been for me.
22:31:59 <KipIngram> I'm a little annoyed at having to tinker with side-loading to let my wife read books I've read or vice versa, though.
22:32:27 <KipIngram> The nook lets you "lend," but 1) the publisher gets to decide if you can, 2) you can only lend a book once, and 3) you can only lend it for 14 days.
22:32:43 <KipIngram> Come on - paper books can be lent / given to anyone as many times as you like for as long as you like.
22:32:44 <Deformative> I see.
22:32:52 <KipIngram> They should at least mimic that.
22:33:22 <Deformative> Well, I don't really know my stance on such things.
22:33:38 <KipIngram> Someone on the net complained that you couldn't read a nook book when you had it lent out, but I wondered what they were smoking - you can't do that with a paper book either.
22:33:43 <Deformative> I really don't think people should be able to make profit on anything that is infinitely reproducable.
22:34:02 <Deformative> But at the same time, if they don't make profit, no one would ever do it.
22:34:19 <KipIngram> Hmmm.  Well, it took intellectual work to create the book, so I ascribe ownership of the product to the author.
22:34:35 <KipIngram> Careful - your work will be infinitely reproducible.  At least the Verilog source, etc.
22:34:44 <Deformative> Indeed.
22:34:46 <KipIngram> We're engineers - we produce *information*.
22:35:01 <ASau> You produce entropy.
22:35:15 <Deformative> Well, there is always the client-server model.
22:35:34 <Deformative> Freely available infinitely reproducable clients, but all the meat is in the server, which the engineer can maintain complete control over.
22:36:09 <ASau> Amazon's 1984 :D
22:36:27 <KipIngram> I think that you should get to decide what someone should pay to use your intellectual creations.  Then we all get to decide whether it's worth it to us at that price or not.
22:36:36 <KipIngram> You create it - it's *yours*.
22:36:57 <KipIngram> Your work.  Your sweat.  Your late nights.
22:37:19 <Deformative> I understand that.
22:37:20 <KipIngram> Of course you may be doing this for an employer, who has agreed to pay your salary in exchange for your IP.
22:37:31 <Deformative> But you are making money off of the bits, not your time.
22:37:36 <Deformative> Which poses a problem to me.
22:37:38 <Deformative> I don't know.
22:38:00 <KipIngram> Well, I think it's great that you're thinking about it at a fundamental level and questioning.  
22:38:35 <KipIngram> But let me put it to you this way.  The first time I tried to start a business I started a consulting business.  Got paid for my time.
22:38:56 <KipIngram> I still hope to own my own business someday, but I will *never* pursue a "pay for my time" model again.
22:39:03 <KipIngram> It means you have to keep working forever.
22:39:22 <Deformative> Makes sense.
22:39:28 <KipIngram> I will deal only with products that I can either 1) outsource the manufacture of or 2) sell "information copies" of.
22:39:29 <KipIngram>  :-)
22:39:52 <KipIngram> That way I can automate the whole damn thing and then relax.
22:40:08 <Deformative> Profit over something infinitely reproducable is great for the one who sells it, but not so great for those who buy it and those who need to ensure that it is not being pirated.
22:40:31 <Deformative> So it is interesting to try to find a way to still make money on the product, but not on the bits.
22:40:35 <KipIngram> Like I said, though, it's great you're questioning, kicking the tires, etc. etc.  Everyone needs to do that - to many people just conform to someone else's ideas and never think again.
22:40:45 <Deformative> Which is why I find client-server stuff great.
22:40:55 <KipIngram> too
22:41:42 <KipIngram> Late for me - I'm turning in.  Manana.
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22:41:50 <Deformative> Goodnight.
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