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09:42:41 <zashi1> okay. woo. I've got a (decent) handle on forth now! :D
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10:43:34 <alex4nder> hey
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14:23:03 --- log: started forth/10.04.19
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14:23:03 --- topic: 'The Forth programming language, etc. | Logged by clog | forth.pastebin.ca | quartus.net/search | gforth: tinyurl.com/s8uho | isforth.com | ANS Standard: tinyurl.com/nx7dx | Wiki: forthfreak.net'
14:23:03 --- topic: set by tathi on [Mon Nov 30 04:40:25 2009]
14:23:03 --- names: list (clog TR2N Deformative segher crc aguai tgunr gnomon Snoopy_1611 KipIngram zashi1 ASau schme gogonkt nighty^ uiu madwork maht_ probonono mathrick saper alex4nder johnlunney foxes nottwo scj TreyB nighty_ tmitt jeremy_c crcx twobitsprite cataska madgarden malyn yiyus)
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17:30:27 <gogonkt> :)
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17:56:29 <Deformative> Hi.
17:56:46 <Deformative> I still haven't gotten an fpga picked out. D:\
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22:23:26 <KipIngram> Deformative: Just buy that $100-ish one and be done.  You're time is worth more than that.  Even if it's not the perfect choice you will learn.
22:23:56 <KipIngram> "Moving forward" has high value.
22:24:40 <Deformative> KipIngram: True.
22:24:47 <Deformative> Thanks for the advice.
22:25:29 <Deformative> I keep ebaying and such, but it just isn't working out.
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22:25:58 <Deformative> If Altera doesn't contact me with information about my academic discount I will either buy from digikey or Digilent.
22:26:33 <Deformative> I have it pretty much narrowed down to one of these:
22:26:35 <Deformative> http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=NEXYS2
22:26:36 <Deformative> or
22:26:40 <Deformative> http://university.altera.com/materials/boards/de0/
22:26:54 <Deformative> Can you comment on the power of each?  I am not educated enough to know.
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22:29:11 <Deformative> Not sure if you got what I said earlier.
22:29:17 <Deformative> [01:24] <Deformative> KipIngram: True.
22:29:18 <Deformative> [01:24] <Deformative> Thanks for the advice.
22:29:20 <Deformative> [01:24] <Deformative> I keep ebaying and such, but it just isn't working out.
22:31:56 <KipIngram> I don't know the Altera product line very well.  But that Digilent one looks pretty nice - 500K or 1200K gates is plenty to do some damage with.
22:32:56 <Deformative> Well the 1200k is $40 more.
22:32:59 <Deformative> So Iw ould go with 500k.
22:33:23 <Deformative> Xilinx Logic gates and Altera Logic Elements are apparently non comparable.
22:33:32 <Deformative> SO I don't know how 15000 LEs compares with 500k gates.
22:34:02 <Deformative> I want to do some experiments with architecture and parallelization of stochastic algorithms.
22:34:05 <ASau> Ophi
22:34:31 <ASau> Good morning.
22:34:39 <KipIngram> Usually the manufacturer quotes a gate count as well.  Have you pulled up the Altera data sheet for the device on that kit?
22:34:54 <Deformative> See, I was told that gate count is meaningless.
22:34:57 <KipIngram> Heh; that plexiglass shield is cool.
22:35:07 <KipIngram> Well, it is really except for vague comparision purposes.
22:35:24 <KipIngram> Every vendor gets to decide how to figure a "gate count" for their device.  Lots of hand waving.
22:35:25 <Deformative> I was told I should try to find the cell count somewhere on the xilinx page and it would be possible to compare that.
22:35:41 <Deformative> Of course, they didn't give me a ratio or anything because they said I should be able to find it myself.
22:35:53 <KipIngram> Xilinx calls them "configurable logic elements."
22:36:06 <KipIngram> Or rather "configurable logic blocks."
22:36:08 <KipIngram> CLBs.
22:36:26 <Deformative> Yeah, at school I use this: http://www.altera.com/education/univ/materials/boards/unv-de2-board.html
22:37:27 <Deformative> 1164 CLBs in the 500k nexys2.
22:37:39 <Deformative> If a CLB is about 1 LE, then it is quite a bit less...
22:37:54 <Deformative> And roughly the same price as getting a DE0 WITHOUT discount.
22:38:09 <KipIngram> The Xilinx documentation shows a picture of the CLB.  I assume that the Altera documentationd shows a picture of a LE.
22:39:13 <KipIngram> Hang on - I just Googled "cyclone ii logic element."
22:39:15 <Deformative> The logic cell to logic element ratio is 1.125:1,
22:39:23 <Deformative> http://www.altera.com/cgi-bin/device_compare.pl
22:39:44 <Deformative> So it is significantly less than the DE0...
22:40:37 <KipIngram> I'd much rather have 15,000 LE's than 1,164 CLB's, I think.
22:41:12 <KipIngram> Hmmm, something I typed didn't show up.
22:41:27 <KipIngram> I pointed out that the Altera LE looked pretty similar to the Xilinx CLB.
22:42:11 <Deformative> Well, the DE0 is 125 without discount, and Nexys2 is 110 with discount.
22:42:55 <KipIngram> That's the same price for all intents and purposes.
22:42:57 <Deformative> Oh whoa, there is a whole extra power of 10 extra with the Altera?
22:43:23 <Deformative> Well, if I get the academic discount, Altera is $90 total.
22:43:25 <KipIngram> That's what it looks like.
22:43:39 <Deformative> But they don't respond to emails.
22:43:59 <Deformative> I got a professor who said he would vouch for whatever I needed to get the board.
22:44:07 <Deformative> But it hard to have him help if I cannot even talk to these people.
22:44:11 <Deformative> Perhaps I will give them a call.
22:44:55 <KipIngram> I imagine you'll have difficulty getting live support.
22:45:11 <KipIngram> We buy Xilinx and put it in our products and it's still hard to get support.  
22:45:52 <KipIngram> I get my support from a (quite cute) application engineer that works for Avnet, our Xilinx distributor.  She's a Xilinx specialist.
22:46:15 <KipIngram> I always manage to come up with some reason to need to have lunch with her when she's in town... :-)
22:46:36 <Deformative> Heh.
22:46:54 <Deformative> Well, altera donates a ton of boards to my school.
22:47:02 <Deformative> I don't know why they can't actually sell one to me.
22:47:43 <KipIngram> Because those are two separate parts of the company.  The group that donates boards is trying to expose as many students as possible to the Altera platforms, so that they will want those platforms when they get jobs.
22:47:54 <KipIngram> They want to put them in *labs*, where they will get lots of hands on them.
22:48:04 <Deformative> This one comes with audio io: http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1483732-board-dev-de1-altera-p0528.html
22:48:10 <Deformative> But it is $30 extra.
22:48:21 <Deformative> Wait, $40 extra.
22:48:27 <Deformative> It also has 5,000 extra LEs.
22:48:34 <KipIngram> The group that sells them does so with an eye on how many parts the target's likely to buy.  They want to sell them to design engineers at companies with upcoming products.
22:49:06 <Deformative> But the DE series is targeted at academics, not companies.
22:49:29 <Deformative> The DE0 in particular is targeted for student's independant study. 
22:49:57 <KipIngram> Wait - is that the one you say they won't sell you?  That makes no sense.
22:50:09 <Deformative> Yes..
22:50:27 <Deformative> I can order it from taiwan, but the shipping cost offsets the discount.
22:51:05 <Deformative> It's not that they won't sell it to me, they just make it impossible to get in contact with them.
22:51:20 <Deformative> Their electronic forms give 404 page not found, and they don't respond to email promptly.
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22:54:19 <KipIngram> Ugh.
22:54:22 <KipIngram> Got to love it.
22:55:10 <Deformative> Yeah, so I think tomorrow or wednesday I will try giving them a call, if nothing I suppose I will just order it at full cost...
22:56:36 <KipIngram> Look, remember that if you get the thing and it doesn't work that you'll be dealing with that same process.
22:56:53 <KipIngram> And you will be a lot more frustrated than you are now.
22:57:12 <Deformative> No, I will be dealing with digikey, not altera.
22:57:18 <Deformative> Digikey is much more reponsive.
22:57:35 <KipIngram> Digikey is awesome.
22:57:48 <Deformative> I emailed them asking if I could Altera's academic discount proxied through them, and they replied same day saying they couldn't offer that.
22:57:52 <KipIngram> I've had very good support from them.
22:58:26 <Deformative> Yeah.
22:58:34 <Deformative> My dad deals with them a lot apparently.
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22:58:56 <Deformative> He was a EE at a few Automotive companies around here over the years.
22:58:59 <Deformative> Not so much anymore though.
23:03:56 <Deformative> But yeah, that's the current game plan.
23:06:06 <KipIngram> These third party units - do you use the vendor's software to design your pattern, or just to burn it to the part?  
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23:06:41 <Pusdesris> For some reason freenode keeps dropping me.
23:09:38 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
23:10:30 <KipIngram> Netsplit?  I have my client suppressing join / part / quit messages, so I can't tell what's going on at that level.
23:11:12 --- nick: Pusdesris -> Deformative
23:11:28 <Deformative> I am not seeing a bunch of join/quits.
23:11:32 <Deformative> I think it is just me.
23:14:24 <Deformative> Well, I have homework to do before morning.
23:14:26 <Deformative> Talk to you later.
23:14:27 <Deformative> o/
23:15:23 <KipIngram> Yeah - have a good night.
23:15:32 <KipIngram> Good luck with the fpga quest.
23:15:40 <Deformative> Thanks.
23:15:44 <Deformative> I will keep you posted. ^^
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