00:00:00 --- log: started forth/10.03.15
01:57:04 --- log: started forth/10.03.15
01:57:04 --- join: clog (~nef@bespin.org) joined #forth
01:57:04 --- topic: 'The Forth programming language, etc. | Logged by clog | forth.pastebin.ca | quartus.net/search | gforth: tinyurl.com/s8uho | isforth.com | ANS Standard: tinyurl.com/nx7dx | Wiki: forthfreak.net'
01:57:04 --- topic: set by tathi on [Mon Nov 30 04:40:25 2009]
01:57:04 --- names: list (clog ygrek gnomon foxes probonono cataska gogonkt mathrick malyn crc TR2N proteusguy DavidC99 ASau``` Deformative grub_booter crcx saper nighty^ tmitt madwork maht madgarden TreyB nottwo yiyus schme nighty_ KipIngram)
04:05:06 --- join: tathi (~josh@dsl-216-227-91-166.fairpoint.net) joined #forth
04:20:53 <tathi> Deformative: it usually doesn't.
04:21:14 --- join: dinya_ (~Denis@94.50.8.208) joined #forth
04:49:42 --- quit: dinya_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
04:50:28 --- join: dinya_ (~Denis@94.50.8.208) joined #forth
04:51:36 --- quit: dinya_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
04:51:44 --- join: dinya_ (~Denis@94.50.8.208) joined #forth
04:54:03 --- quit: dinya_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
04:54:33 --- join: dinya_ (~Denis@94.50.8.208) joined #forth
04:56:39 --- quit: maht (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
06:10:39 --- join: ASau (~user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth
06:21:35 --- quit: dinya_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
06:22:07 --- join: dinya_ (~Denis@94.50.8.208) joined #forth
06:23:06 --- quit: ASau``` (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
06:23:13 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
06:32:26 --- join: ASau``` (~user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth
07:05:50 <Deformative> tathi: Oh I see...
07:05:52 <Deformative> Interesting...
07:06:22 <schme> ?
07:08:20 <Deformative> [01:02] <Deformative> How does ' 4 work?
07:08:24 <Deformative> [07:20] <tathi> Deformative: it usually doesn't.
07:09:00 <schme> Deformative: Yes. I'm wondering about the "interesting.." part :)
07:09:30 <Deformative> Well I am implementing my forth and I have a design decision here.
07:09:55 <schme> It strikes me as odd if ' would work with things that are not words.
07:10:13 <schme> But don't let that stop you :)
07:13:41 <schme> Deformative: What do you plan on having ' 4 actually do? (:
07:14:15 <Deformative> Well, I wanted colon to be defined using '.
07:14:52 <schme> hmm ok.
07:28:37 <Deformative> I am trying to think of what I can do to make this implementation as elegant as possible.
07:28:46 <Deformative> I don't need to follow the forth standards or anything.
07:30:24 <Deformative> What do you think schme?
07:31:12 <Deformative> Perhaps I can do i'  Which is internal tick and will be ( -- addr truthvalue) for if it is found in the dictionary not.
07:31:22 <Deformative> Then I could : ' i' drop ;
07:35:37 <schme> I am getting confused.
07:35:45 <schme> (:
07:36:14 <schme> Why do you want to find stuff in the dict for : ?
07:37:42 <Deformative> To fill the dictionary entry.
07:37:55 <schme> Hmm..
07:37:59 <Deformative> : x y z ; y and z must be looked up in the dictionary.
07:38:08 <schme> Right.
07:38:23 <schme> But ' 4 ??
07:38:37 <Deformative> : x 4 5 ;
07:38:49 <schme> oh now I get it.
07:38:56 <Deformative> ^^
07:38:59 <schme> (:
07:39:06 <schme> I wouldn't do that :P
07:39:33 <Deformative> What do you think would be the most elegant option?
07:39:43 <Deformative> I don't want to write dictionary searching code twice.
07:40:14 <schme> Maybe not search the dict for numbers then (:
07:41:20 <Deformative> The order of things is typically "search dictionary, if not found try to evaluate as number, if doesn't work, error"
07:41:40 <schme> true true.
07:42:04 <schme> Then I am confused as to what the problem is here :D
07:42:29 <schme> ' 4     Undefined word   gforth tells me. is all good.
07:43:00 <Deformative> I am implementing my own forth by the way.
07:43:13 <schme> Yeees. But that should work, no?
07:47:04 <Deformative> that?
07:47:21 <schme> Your massive plan you had there :)
07:47:35 <schme> I need coffee I see.
07:47:42 <Deformative> [10:30] <Deformative> Perhaps I can do i'  Which is internal tick and will be ( -- addr truthvalue) for if it is found in the dictionary not.
07:47:44 <Deformative> That one?
07:47:51 <schme> well why not?
07:51:01 <Deformative> It would work, I am just trying to decide if it is the most elegant or not.
08:03:42 <schme> Aha. I guess most elegant depends on the rest of your implementation etc. :)
08:24:38 --- quit: gnomon (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
08:24:40 --- nick: Deformative -> Pusdesris
08:24:47 --- nick: Pusdesris -> Deformative
08:24:55 --- join: gnomon (~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth
08:32:19 --- join: kar8nga (~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth
09:42:39 --- join: alex4nder (~alexander@wsip-72-215-164-129.sb.sd.cox.net) joined #forth
09:53:01 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
10:04:49 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@zeppelin.proteus-tech.com) joined #forth
10:10:18 --- join: segher (~segher@84-105-60-153.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth
10:16:28 --- join: scj (syljo361@static-ip-62-75-255-125.inaddr.server4you.de) joined #forth
10:20:05 --- join: ASau (~user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth
10:30:28 <alex4nder> yoh
10:32:38 <Deformative> Hi.
10:33:52 --- join: qFox (~C00K13S@5356B263.cable.casema.nl) joined #forth
10:39:23 <alex4nder> Deformative: hey.. how's your project?
10:44:45 <Deformative> alex4nder: Which?
10:44:50 <Deformative> The forth?
10:44:52 <alex4nder> yah
10:45:07 <Deformative> I am wishing i had an assembler that didn't suck or a preprocessor which I could use with it.
10:45:29 <Deformative> I am going to ask the professor for the sources.
10:45:55 <alex4nder> do you have the instruct set information for the processor?
10:46:24 <Deformative> I do.
10:46:33 <Deformative> I just don't want to write one myself.
10:46:39 <Deformative> I only have a month to get a forth system up.
10:46:50 <Deformative> Wasting a week of that on an assembler doesn't seem fun.
10:48:05 <alex4nder> odds are, you're not going to need the full assembler.
10:48:25 <alex4nder> just a small subset.. so you could cross compile your Forth, after writing the parts of the assembler you actually care about.
10:48:26 <Deformative> Yeah.
10:48:32 <alex4nder> that's what I would do.
10:48:51 <Deformative> Just having #define pop_par(var) as this stuff here including newlines 
10:48:54 <Deformative> would be enough.
10:49:15 <Deformative> I suppose it has #include so I could just generate source files with var already in there.
10:51:05 <alex4nder> you're using the C pre-processor to write your Forth?
10:51:38 <Deformative> I don't have the C preprocessor.
10:51:47 <alex4nder> who is handling the #include?
10:51:48 <Deformative> My professor just added the #include functionality to the assembler.
10:51:51 <alex4nder> oh
10:51:51 <alex4nder> haha
10:51:55 <Deformative> Yeah...
10:52:31 <Deformative> Most people in my class have only had a term of C++, so they don't know shit and his idea was to make them comfortable.
10:53:03 --- quit: scj (Remote host closed the connection)
10:53:06 --- join: scj (syljo361@static-ip-62-75-255-125.inaddr.server4you.de) joined #forth
10:55:38 --- quit: scj (Remote host closed the connection)
10:57:00 <alex4nder> I'd say you're probably better off identifying your primitives, and hand assembling/stashing the.
10:57:04 <alex4nder> er stashing them
10:58:06 --- join: scj__ (syljo361@static-ip-62-75-255-125.inaddr.server4you.de) joined #forth
10:58:22 <Deformative> Ehh.
10:59:23 --- quit: scj__ (Client Quit)
11:08:08 --- join: forther (~forther@207.47.34.100.static.nextweb.net) joined #forth
11:08:55 <Deformative> Perhaps I will just make PUSH_RETreg0.e and PUSH_RETreg1.e etc etc
11:09:01 <Deformative> Then just #include those.
11:09:12 * Deformative shrugs.
11:21:44 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
11:41:06 --- quit: forther (Quit: Leaving)
11:45:33 <ASau> Next time he appears tell him about 68k forth assembler.
11:47:48 <alex4nder> hah
12:01:54 --- join: Maki (~Maki@dynamic-78-30-167-37.adsl.eunet.rs) joined #forth
12:11:50 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote host closed the connection)
12:15:14 --- quit: alex4nder (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
12:22:25 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (Snoopy_161@dslb-088-068-207-133.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
12:36:20 --- join: kar8nga (~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth
12:53:42 --- join: Deformative (~joe@67-194-49-162.wireless.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth
13:09:45 --- join: alex4nder (~alexander@173.152.198.202) joined #forth
13:21:21 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
13:23:45 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
13:29:03 --- join: ASau (~user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth
14:08:33 --- join: SunTzu (1000@c-68-56-68-122.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth
14:08:48 <SunTzu> what's the std runtime for fig vocabularies?
14:08:54 --- join: Deformative (~joe@bursley-185022.reshall.umich.edu) joined #forth
14:11:40 --- quit: Maki (Quit: Leaving)
14:21:29 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (Snoopy_161@dslb-088-068-196-109.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
14:22:06 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Disconnected by services)
14:22:30 --- nick: Snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy_1611
14:34:03 --- quit: alex4nder (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
14:48:03 --- quit: crc (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
14:50:31 --- join: crc (~charlesch@71.23.210.149) joined #forth
14:58:24 --- quit: ASau (Read error: Operation timed out)
14:59:46 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (Snoopy_161@dslb-088-068-200-095.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
15:00:07 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Disconnected by services)
15:00:12 --- nick: Snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy_1611
15:05:06 <ASau```> SunTzu: forget FIG Forth.
15:05:26 <ASau```> SunTzu: it is dead beyound point of revival.
15:05:39 <ASau```> Even Horst stopped using it.
15:06:50 <SunTzu> it's my choice, tyvm. can you answer?
15:07:09 <SunTzu> ASau``` dont be a specist
15:07:58 --- quit: ygrek (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
15:12:11 --- quit: qFox (Quit: Time for cookies!)
15:27:09 <ASau```> I recommend you change your preference.
15:27:32 <ASau```> You have to elaborate your question anyway.
15:31:11 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote host closed the connection)
15:35:12 <KipIngram> SunTzu: FIG is fine.
15:35:23 <KipIngram> You just punched one of ASau's hot buttons.
15:36:52 <KipIngram> But yes, you do need to elaborate your question.
15:55:05 <SunTzu> KipIngram yea ty, i know; ... that he's a dumbass (ty Red)
15:55:24 --- join: skas (~skas@eth488.act.adsl.internode.on.net) joined #forth
15:55:35 <SunTzu> KipIngram np; i'm just being lazy to write a kernal.asm; i have fig docs in my archive/ but i wanted to axe here first.
15:55:56 --- part: skas left #forth
15:55:57 <SunTzu> i axed about the (voc) runtime; isnt it just r> ?
15:56:37 <ASau```> Don't listen to KipIngram, he's just old fart.
15:56:39 <SunTzu> i'm currently going back and forth on how much indirection i want in my inner interp
15:57:00 <SunTzu> and you're a dumbass; since those are my only choices, i'll choose the new guy i havent chatted up yet
15:57:39 <ASau```> I just point you that your choice is stupid.
15:57:46 <ASau```> The world isn't 16-bit.
15:57:52 <SunTzu> that's fine; it's not your choice.
15:58:16 <SunTzu> i'm not porting, i'm just determining in sw first. 
15:59:40 <SunTzu> i've always like the fig style of vocabularies; didnt like the f83 style and definately dislike the ANS style.
16:00:33 <SunTzu> it lends itself well to poly-morphism and object-style parentage and searching.
16:01:40 <SunTzu> and hiding of code and data
16:02:47 <SunTzu> i'm also conflicted about where to put TOS
16:04:15 <ASau```> Your "object-style" views are quite limited.
16:04:49 <ASau```> It is quite easy to simulate FIG style dictionary atop of modern search order
16:04:52 <ASau```> but not vice versa.
16:05:15 <ASau```> And this means that you do have those notorious cross-compiler isolation problems.
16:54:50 <SunTzu> k
16:55:04 <SunTzu> forth is not hte end, it's just the beginning.
17:37:37 <ASau```> If you do intend to use Forth as bootstrap stage then
17:37:37 <ASau```> there're less reasons to use FIG Forth dictionary structure.
17:38:23 <ASau```> While you could try to work around isolation problems in Forth,
17:38:24 <ASau```> you cannot isolate.
17:38:59 <ASau```> With search order you can seal interpreter into special
17:39:00 <ASau```> word list which has little to do with original Forth.
18:01:32 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (Snoopy_161@dslb-088-068-200-095.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
18:01:44 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Disconnected by services)
18:01:48 --- nick: Snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy_1611
18:05:45 --- join: maht (~maht__@85.189.31.174.proweb.managedbroadband.co.uk) joined #forth
18:15:45 --- join: alex4nder (~alexander@173.152.39.169) joined #forth
18:24:29 --- join: alex4nde1 (~alexander@dsl093-145-168.sba1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #forth
18:24:32 <alex4nde1> hey
18:25:33 --- quit: alex4nder (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
18:25:38 --- nick: alex4nde1 -> alex4nder
18:28:02 <Deformative> o/
18:30:10 <alex4nder> hey
18:30:17 <Deformative> How's it goin?
18:30:22 * alex4nder is trying to figure out why his modifier keys are broken under X.
18:31:35 <alex4nder> how's like for you?
18:32:50 --- quit: tathi (Quit: leaving)
18:33:10 <Deformative> Feelin a little down about that one girl, other than that, ok.
18:33:20 <Deformative> I skipped most of my classes today and got some work done on my forth.
18:34:48 <alex4nder> nice
18:34:58 <alex4nder> I finally got my macpro running Linux again.
18:35:05 <alex4nder> so now it's back to FPGA development.
18:35:10 <Deformative> Meh, I am running ubuntu.
18:35:12 <Deformative> It is miserable.
18:35:24 <Deformative> I have been running archlinux for the five years up to just recently.
18:35:30 <alex4nder> hmm
18:35:39 <Deformative> And I killed my archlinux and was too lazy to install it again.
18:35:44 <alex4nder> yah.. I'm just running Debian, with a copy of xorg, emacs, and rxvt.
18:35:45 <Deformative> So I went with ubuntu.
18:35:50 <alex4nder> and a tiling window manager.
18:35:57 <Deformative> emacs, interesting.
18:36:09 <Deformative> I don't know any emacs fellas.
18:36:14 <Deformative> I am a kwrite/vim user.
18:36:18 <alex4nder> ah
18:36:25 <alex4nder> I read my mail in emacs.. organize my life in emacs..
18:36:31 <alex4nder> write programs in it.
18:36:41 <Deformative> Weird.
18:36:49 <alex4nder> it's the closest GNU ever got to an operating system.
18:37:07 <Deformative> Lol.
18:37:30 <Deformative> I would like to run a bsd, but it isn't an option right now.
18:37:39 <alex4nder> yah..
18:37:47 <alex4nder> I developed on BSD for a while, and now I don't care anymore.
18:37:52 <Deformative> And I doubt it will be an option in the future because of my future laptop choice.
18:39:14 <alex4nder> werd.
18:39:55 <alex4nder> I want to build my own laptop one of these days.
18:40:02 <alex4nder> something with an ARM.
18:40:52 <Deformative> Yeah.
18:41:05 <Deformative> I work at Qualcomm.
18:41:18 <Deformative> I am planning to get a smartbook next as my primary computer.
18:41:39 <Deformative> Like lenovo skylight or something.
18:42:53 <Deformative> s/at/for
18:42:57 <Deformative> I am working there this summer.
18:43:06 <Deformative> It is an internship, not a career.
18:43:11 <Deformative> ^^
18:44:48 <alex4nder> cool.
18:45:08 <alex4nder> yah.. I'm running a lenovo x61s right now.. and I love it, but it won't last another year or two.
18:45:22 <Deformative> Computers don't last me more than a year.
18:45:25 <Deformative> :(
18:45:28 <Deformative> Well, laptops anyway.
18:46:23 <alex4nder> rough.
18:47:17 <Deformative> Yeah, it is depressing.
18:47:54 <Deformative> This one is going quicker than expected, but luckily I should be able to send it in before warantee ends.
18:50:47 <alex4nder> that skylight looks pretty good.
18:51:06 <Deformative> Yeah, I got to mess with a prototype when I interviewed.
18:51:08 <Deformative> Very neat.
18:51:33 <Deformative> It is like weightless.
18:51:38 <alex4nder> cool
18:51:54 <alex4nder> the integrated WWAN and the fact it runs linux out of the box is pretty great.
18:52:12 <Deformative> Yeah.
18:53:27 <Deformative> From what I understand they are working on windows support, but it isn't immediate.
18:53:44 <Deformative> And they have flash support well under way.
18:53:55 <Deformative> Having flash on anything but x86 is pretty cool.
18:54:20 <Deformative> I am looking forward to when a laptop with a mirasol display comes out.
18:57:07 <Deformative> pursebook looks cooler
18:57:22 <Deformative> Don't know much about it though.
18:59:38 <alex4nder> I haven't been keeping track at all.  the only thing I really care about right now is getting a machine that has an ARM, and uses a Pixel Qi display.
19:01:15 <Deformative> Mirasol / inf > PixelQi * inf
19:02:15 <alex4nder> If you say so. :)
19:07:41 <alex4nder> these FPGA tools suck.
19:07:59 <Deformative> Agreed.
19:08:02 <Deformative> I use quartus for school.
19:08:05 <Deformative> Hunk of garbage.
20:46:34 --- join: alex4nde1 (~alexander@173-128-223-32.pools.spcsdns.net) joined #forth
20:48:32 --- join: |dinya_| (~Denis@188.17.94.82) joined #forth
20:51:31 --- quit: dinya_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
21:19:33 --- quit: maht (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
21:46:31 <ASau```> There's nothing wrong with using BSD on laptop.
21:46:50 <ASau```> E.g. this laptops runs FreeBSD(!).
22:08:29 --- join: maht (~maht__@85.189.31.174.proweb.managedbroadband.co.uk) joined #forth
22:23:01 <KipIngram> Deformative: Is the Skylight going to be a "real" notebook, or is is going to be a cellular network bandwidth delivery vehicle?
22:23:38 <Deformative> KipIngram: Both.
22:23:57 <KipIngram> Both?
22:24:04 <KipIngram> How can it be both?
22:24:39 <KipIngram> Can I turn off the network to extend battery life, and run serious apps on the machine itself?
22:24:51 <Deformative> Well, what qualifies as a "real" notebook and what qualifies as a cellular network bandwidth delivery vehicle?
22:25:04 <Deformative> Sure, it has video decoding and such.
22:25:07 <Deformative> That is semi-serious.
22:25:09 <KipIngram> Will I be able to install normal Linux packages, or will I be subjected to limitations imposed by the service provider?
22:25:28 <Deformative> That I do not know.
22:25:33 <KipIngram> Will I be able to run apt-get on third party repositories?
22:25:37 <KipIngram> Like a real Linux?
22:25:50 <Deformative> It is a real linux, but the default operating system doesn't use x11.
22:25:55 <Deformative> It has a custom window system.
22:26:11 <KipIngram> If the cellphone company controls what packages I install then it's not true Linux in my opinion, even if the underlying code is Linux-based.
22:26:26 <Deformative> I don't immagine it difficult to port rxvt to the windowing system and then you can run all your favorite console apps.
22:26:40 <KipIngram> I am a console app fan.
22:27:12 <KipIngram> The beauty of Linux is freedom; if it doesn't come with freedom then it's a trap. :-)
22:27:31 <Deformative> You can always reformat and put a true linux on there.  I don't know how graphics or wireless drivers would be.
22:27:38 <Deformative> Agreed.
22:28:06 <Deformative> It sounded very hackable from what they told me.
22:28:07 <KipIngram> I did that with my Asus laptops.  I've had two - one came with Xandros and one with Windows.
22:28:14 <Deformative> Though, most of it is very javascript centric.
22:28:17 <KipIngram> I toasted those and installed Ubuntu.
22:28:38 <KipIngram> And yes, getting graphics and wifi to work right was a bit uphill, but I managed.
22:29:26 <KipIngram> Cellphone companies seem to love Javascript  and Java.
22:29:51 <KipIngram> I tend to think of Java as a synonym for "slow."
22:29:58 <KipIngram> But it surely lets you deploy stuff fast.
22:30:35 <KipIngram> I think I'm about to try Eeebunto 4.0 on an external drive, just to see what I think of it.
22:30:43 <KipIngram> Eeebuntu
22:31:08 <Deformative> Brb, connecting to wireless hopefully.
22:32:49 --- quit: alex4nder (Quit: brb)
22:34:11 --- join: Pusdesris (~joe@67-194-19-172.wireless.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth
22:34:16 <Pusdesris> Back.
22:34:25 <Pusdesris> KipIngram: I love javascript too.
22:34:28 <Pusdesris> Not a fan of java though.
22:34:57 <KipIngram> I see the point of javascript more than java.
22:35:35 <alex4nde1> re..
22:35:35 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
22:35:39 <KipIngram> Java just seems like someone wanted to rename C++ and take the credit for it.
22:35:41 --- nick: Pusdesris -> Deformative
22:35:53 <KipIngram> I know it's not *exactly* the same...
22:36:03 <Deformative> KipIngram: LOL.
22:36:07 <KipIngram> But it's "smacks of it..."
22:37:35 <KipIngram> So, when you were interviewing... any word on the next step in battery life?  We're up around 10/11 hour or so now.  That's great, but if I could have 16/18 it would be *so* much nicer.
22:37:51 <KipIngram> That's the difference from "usually getting a day of work" and *always* getting a day of work.
22:38:13 <Deformative> There are MANY companies looking to jump on the "smartbook" idea so even if lenovo's isn't open development, there will be one with it.
22:38:22 <KipIngram> If I could just take off in the morning with no AC adaptor and *know* that I'd have juice left when I came home...
22:38:27 <KipIngram> NO matter what I did.
22:38:39 <Deformative> KipIngram: Well, all smartbooks will be right up there in terms of battery life.
22:38:49 <Deformative> Snapdragon is extremely efficient.
22:38:49 <KipIngram> What is "right up there"?
22:39:36 <Deformative> 10+ hours.
22:39:46 <KipIngram> :-|
22:39:52 <Deformative> If mirasol displays hit, then 30+ can be expected.
22:39:56 <KipIngram> I look forward to that next 50%.
22:40:02 <KipIngram> Ok, now you're talking.
22:40:11 <KipIngram> I'd think that means they *will* hit, if they will offer that.
22:40:31 <KipIngram> That's the holy grail as far as I'm concerned.
22:40:56 <Deformative> Well, mirasol are color reflective displays with high refresh rates.
22:41:12 <KipIngram> Does that mean no backlight?
22:41:20 <Deformative> Yes.
22:41:28 <KipIngram> That's ok; I'm fine with having the lights on in the room.
22:41:33 <KipIngram> Seems like the way to go to me.
22:41:36 <Deformative> Agreed.
22:41:40 <KipIngram> And I'm getting used to it on my nook.
22:41:54 <Deformative> Though, I don't see why they don't just put a heavier battery on smartbooks.
22:42:11 <Deformative> They have a lot of extra room in the machine, I don't see why they don't put a bigger battery in there to increase life.
22:42:16 <KipIngram> Yes, I'd happily carry 50% more battery to get my 15 hours.
22:42:46 <Deformative> Same.
22:43:13 <KipIngram> But then, I'd like to have my old Cadillac's 20-gallon tank on my Civic hybrid so I could drive 1000 miles on a fill up.
22:43:15 <KipIngram> :-)
22:43:39 <Deformative> Heh.
22:44:17 <KipIngram> I guess there's not room to put that large a tank in that car safely.
22:44:27 <KipIngram> Anyway, 30 hours sounds just wonderful. :-)
22:44:31 <KipIngram> I look forward to it.
22:45:03 <Deformative> I don't understand it, they make this machine under 2 pounds.  Why not make it 4 so that we can get 24 hour battery life?
22:45:17 <KipIngram> Marketing has told them that 10's enough.
22:45:28 <KipIngram> Because 85% of the market feels that way.
22:46:05 <Deformative> :(
22:46:09 <KipIngram> I know.
22:46:18 <KipIngram> It gives me kind of a hopeless feeling too.
22:46:42 <KipIngram> The danger is that they will *reduce the battery size* when the Mirasol displays come along, to get us under 1 pound.
22:46:50 <KipIngram> We will have gained nothing.
22:47:26 <Deformative> Yeah.
22:47:37 <KipIngram> We need a Burgess Shale of notebook development.
22:47:58 <KipIngram> Do you know what the Burgess Shale was?
22:48:10 <Deformative> This looks interesting too: http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/03/wistrons-snapdragon-powered-pursebook-gets-demoed/
22:48:15 <Deformative> I love full keyboards.
22:48:20 <Deformative> But battery life is even worse.
22:48:42 <Deformative> I do not know who Bugess Shale was.
22:49:03 <KipIngram> It's this place up in Canada that's a fossil wonder.
22:49:28 <KipIngram> It's like, really early in the history of life, genetic chunks could be plugged together almost any way at all and they would "work".
22:49:34 <Deformative> s/who/what :)
22:49:49 <KipIngram> So you got all these myriad life forms all built from the same parts.
22:49:58 <KipIngram> This was before evolution "diverged".
22:50:17 <KipIngram> Later on you couldn't take pieces of this and pieces of that and put them together any more, but at one point early on you could.
22:50:27 <KipIngram> And the Burgess Shale has a fossil record of that.
22:50:31 <Deformative> I see.
22:50:50 <KipIngram> We need to be experimenting with all combinations of performance, battery life, display resolution, etc.
22:50:56 <KipIngram> Give the market a chance to choose.
22:51:24 <KipIngram> Although I guess that if the marketers are right then the long battery life machines we'd like would show up during the experimentand then perish.
22:52:11 <KipIngram> I just wish there was a small "specialty industry" that would allow us to roll our own.  I'd pay twice as much if I could design my own configuration of processor power, battery life, etc.
22:52:15 <Deformative> Another thing I want is fast ram.
22:52:27 <Deformative> They keep upping the storage of the ram, but it's speed goes down.
22:52:29 <KipIngram> I wounder if there's a boutique business in there somewhere.
22:53:10 <Deformative> 1ghz ARM is enough for me in terms of computational power I think.
22:53:25 <Deformative> I mean really, I need a text editor..
22:53:35 <Deformative> Web browser is nice too. :)
22:53:35 <KipIngram> I don't need to watch movies or play games on my notebook.
22:53:35 <segher> enough for _you_, but is it enough for the bloatware you use?
22:53:50 <KipIngram> Bloatware is indeed part of the problem.
22:54:07 <segher> especially web crap
22:54:09 <Deformative> Everything I use is rather spiffy other than my web browser.
22:54:13 <segher> yeah
22:54:14 <KipIngram> The big problem is the web...
22:54:20 <KipIngram> segher: you beat me to it.
22:54:20 <Deformative> THere is no good web browser to me.
22:54:28 <segher> well, my mail client is slow as well
22:54:30 <KipIngram> Chrome is pretty good.
22:54:36 <KipIngram> Faster than anything else I've tried.
22:54:38 <Deformative> Konqueror was the closest I got.
22:54:39 <segher> that's 20GB of mailbox though
22:54:43 <Deformative> But it doesn't support javascript for shit.
22:54:57 <KipIngram> The web has us all trapped in bloatware land.
22:55:05 <KipIngram> Or at least GUI land.
22:55:18 <KipIngram> And that's not going to change.
22:55:34 <segher> many many years ago i worked for a web company.  for kicks, i installed NN2 as well.  that was *hugely* fast compared to NN4
22:56:01 <Deformative> The lack of standards in the web community doesn't help anything.
22:56:04 <KipIngram> This one friend I chat with uses emoticons more than anyone I've ever seen.  I use a console chat client, and it's like I can't communicate with her because she uses so many smileys.
22:56:12 <Deformative> Validation needs to be common.
22:56:14 <KipIngram> And I can't decipher them on my console.
22:56:17 <Deformative> Everyone needs the same version of html.
22:56:37 <segher> deformative: even without that, stuff would slow down to "acceptable on recent hardware" levels
22:57:22 <KipIngram> There *absolutely* needs to be a very streamlined way to "rev up" your system when you need this stuff, and turn it back down when you're running console apps.
22:57:35 <KipIngram> Some things like that exist, but they need to be better and more automatic.
22:57:54 <segher> if software seriously goes multicore, you'll have that
22:58:13 <segher> well, you *can* have that, i mean
22:58:20 <KipIngram> You don't need to pick a "performance level"; you need to pick a "rendering speed" or something like that.  Since console is a lot easier to render it will automatically take less power.
22:58:21 <segher> 1000 tiny cores
22:58:38 <KipIngram> Yes; I like that.
22:58:45 <KipIngram> The software has to support it, though.
22:58:58 <Deformative> I blame OOP more than anything.
22:59:07 <Deformative> OOP is increadibly slow. 
22:59:13 <KipIngram> OOP is a misguided idea.
22:59:15 <Deformative> They way they teach programming now is terrible.
22:59:19 <segher> OOPS is a big badness, sure -- but it's not the cause of this problem
22:59:30 <Deformative> Results in the most cache misses possible.
22:59:30 <KipIngram> Another of those concepts designed to optimize programmer man hours.  Whether it achieves that or not I don't know...
22:59:49 <segher> relying on cache hits is bad as well
22:59:54 <Deformative> Inevitably results in bloatware.  People don't realize that they don't need error checking for every damn thing.
23:00:11 <segher> heh
23:00:12 <KipIngram> Don't *rely* on cache hits.  *Design* for cache hits.
23:00:15 <Deformative> All of these objects have far too much functionality built into them when people use them for trivial tasks.
23:00:16 <segher> sure
23:00:33 <segher> just make sure it is fast when you miss the cache all the time as well :-)
23:01:08 <segher> the *big* problem with OOPS is that people split their data over objects and split their algos that way as well
23:01:12 <KipIngram> Hmmm... a conversation similar to this came up a few days ago on another channel, I think.
23:01:22 <KipIngram> The whole "don't check for every error at every level" thing.
23:01:26 <segher> turning simple O(n log n) into O(n^8) etc.
23:01:38 <Deformative> segher: Agreed.
23:01:44 <KipIngram> Firewall your system and then let all internal software presume the firewall works, for example.
23:01:53 <segher> (and that is not an example i made up, i've seen literally that)
23:02:18 <Deformative> segher: What are you counting, function calls?
23:02:25 <KipIngram> The scary thing is that the person who came up with that O(n^8) think didn't reject it out of hand...
23:02:25 <Deformative> Erm, "method"
23:02:34 <segher> no, just "instructions"
23:02:38 <Deformative> Oh I see.
23:02:43 <segher> but sure, function calls is fine as well
23:03:10 <KipIngram> Wow - I've got to sleep.  You guys outlasted me.
23:03:14 <KipIngram> Catch you later.
23:03:23 <segher> this was "add the name of the window you just opened to the list of open windows"
23:03:52 <Deformative> KipIngram: Goodnight, talk to you later.
23:03:55 <segher> night
23:04:23 <Deformative> Also, the abuse of hashtables bothers me.
23:04:37 <segher> what abuse?
23:04:43 <Deformative> Every modern language seems to abuse them for everything.
23:04:53 <Deformative> When a linear search would be just fine.
23:04:57 <segher> "modern language"?
23:05:02 <Deformative> Scripting languages.
23:05:07 <Deformative> Mostly.
23:05:23 <Deformative> I mean, even for something indexed.
23:05:28 <segher> Perl doesn't have hashtables, it has associative arrays
23:05:33 <Deformative> Well yes.
23:05:40 <Deformative> But those are backed by hashtables.
23:05:44 <segher> which are a neat abstraction
23:05:47 <segher> usually, sure
23:06:22 <segher> oh, you are saying people use those when their keys are 0,1,2,3?
23:06:27 <Deformative> Yes.
23:06:35 <segher> that's stupid alright :-)
23:06:42 <Deformative> Or when their list is 5 keys long.
23:06:55 <segher> heh
23:07:11 <segher> well it can make things a lot more obvious to read
23:07:25 <Deformative> I mean sure, hash tables are an interesting abstraction, but ALL of those hashing functions....
23:07:30 <segher> and it's only a fixed factor hit
23:07:57 <Deformative> And the fact that they collide so much makes their usage rediculous at times. 
23:08:00 <segher> not a big factor either
23:08:25 <segher> good hashes don't collide so much, good hashes are O(1)
23:08:31 <Deformative> Of course.
23:08:36 <segher> or even Theta(1.6)
23:09:10 <Deformative> But good hashes can be slow. :)  Especially on complex data.
23:09:25 <segher> oh, getting a key can be expensive
23:09:43 <Deformative> Yes, that is what I mean.
23:10:09 <Deformative> Eh, I am overreacting.
23:10:11 <segher> on well-behaved data it's not such a big problem
23:10:31 <Deformative> Hashes are the least of the worries in modern software
23:10:37 <Deformative> It is just one that came to mind for some stupid reason.
23:11:26 <segher> using algorithms that are quadratic or worse when not absolutely necessary, *that* is the biggest problem
23:11:36 <Deformative> People seem to feel like memory is free.
23:11:43 <Deformative> And they just allocate away.
23:11:48 --- part: TR2N left #forth
23:11:56 <segher> i hardly ever allocate *anything*
23:12:08 <Deformative> And they justify it by saying, "We have a lot of memory, we should put it to good use."
23:12:18 <segher> to *good* use
23:12:20 <Deformative> Which is nonsense.  It takes a ton of time to FILL that memory.
23:12:34 <segher> memory takes power as well
23:12:35 <Deformative> Especially when it is rarely ever used after that.
23:12:41 <Deformative> That too.
23:12:44 <segher> 2W per GB
23:12:55 <Deformative> And when you ahve memory spread out, you get cache misses.
23:13:27 <crcx>  /window 4
23:15:14 <segher> don't worry about cache misses, there are worse things
23:15:36 <segher> and you _will_ miss the cache all of the time
23:15:56 --- quit: |dinya_| (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
23:16:24 * Deformative shrugs.
23:17:56 <Deformative> Well, I have an exam tomorrow so I should get some sleep soon.
23:17:58 <Deformative> o/
23:20:10 --- join: dinya_ (~Denis@188.16.64.7) joined #forth
23:25:31 --- join: Pusdesris (~joe@bursley-185022.reshall.umich.edu) joined #forth
23:26:12 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
23:50:45 --- quit: alex4nde1 (Quit: sleep)
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/10.03.15