00:00:00 --- log: started forth/10.02.16
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00:27:12 <sgtarr> hi Forth community
00:27:22 <sgtarr> is chuck moore in here?
00:37:29 <ASau`> No.
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05:42:33 <Deformative> Heh.
05:48:01 <KipIngram> Wow, it's a slim crowd this morning.
05:51:01 <ASau`> Hm.
05:51:11 <ASau`> What are those people??
05:54:48 <KipIngram> What people?
05:55:19 <ASau`>  /names
05:55:47 <KipIngram> It's just fewer than I'm used to seeing, that's all.  Just 26 of us this morning.
05:56:05 <KipIngram> Not ridiculously fewer, but down some I think.
05:56:27 <KipIngram> And some of those are here twice, but that's probably always the case.
05:56:38 <ASau`> I don't remember half of them. :)
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12:28:42 <Deformative> Hello again.
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16:05:01 <snotforbrains> i am having trouble using OR. for instance i want to test if the number is negative or zero if it is abort, so i do this : 0= 0< OR ABORT" xxx"
16:05:19 <snotforbrains> even if the condition is not met it still aborts...
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16:09:55 <segher> dup 0= swap 0< or
16:10:06 <segher> or you can use   0<=
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16:23:01 <snotforbrains> ah thanks
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16:33:39 <alex4nder> hey
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16:45:01 <erider> has anyone put pforth on a calculator like TI-89 
16:45:58 <alex4nder> erider: I went down to the store and bought an HP 48GX. :D
16:47:38 <erider> alex4nder: really 
16:47:57 <alex4nder> erider: I'm just messing with you,.. the HP 48s are all stack calculators.
16:47:58 <erider> I have put forth on it or does it come with forth already 
16:48:22 <alex4nder> that's how I got into using stack machines,. the HP 48s use RPN.
16:48:26 <alex4nder> as do other HP calculators.
16:49:19 <erider> yeah I know that but that is not the same of have a forth system on the calc 
16:50:32 <alex4nder> yah RPL isn't Forth, but it's also not that far off.
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19:33:46 <alexander> hey
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20:24:39 <KipIngram> I always wished that my HP would actually run Forth.
20:24:51 <KipIngram> But it was the HP that led me to Forth, not the other way around.
20:24:57 <KipIngram> In my case a 41CV.
20:26:20 <KipIngram> I ran across Forth, and it was like "Hey, a programming language with a stack and RPN.  Groovy."  Then I learned about all the even cooler stuff Forth offered.  RPN and the stack are just the tip of the iceberg.
20:26:48 <alexander> yup.
20:27:29 <KipIngram> Though the stack is really important, since it eliminates the need for parameter lists.  And a stack without RPN would make little sense.  So it's all connected.
20:27:56 <alexander> I bought my own HP 48 GX in highschool.
20:28:08 <alexander> I still have it, sitting on my desk.
20:28:27 <KipIngram> I tried a 48 later on, but never "felt the love."  By then I had a PC on my desk, and anything that really called on the 48's full power I just did in BASIC or something.
20:28:38 <alexander> yah.
20:28:55 <alexander> I got my HP when the TIs were becoming all the rage.
20:29:00 <KipIngram> Mine was the generation before the GX.  SX, I think?  My wife uses a GX to this day.
20:29:19 <alexander> ah
20:30:12 <KipIngram> I used a 42S in there somewhere too, and that was a pretty nifty calculator.  A lot like the 41, only "juiced up."  But they spoiled the keyboard right in there; I couldn't touch type on my 42 the way I could my 41.
20:31:17 <KipIngram> Then somewhere along the way they caved in and started to offer dual RPN / algebraic.  Yuck.  An = key on my HP?????
20:31:40 <alexander> yah.. that was horrible.
20:31:43 <alexander> I gave up after that.
20:32:06 <KipIngram> That "give me liberty of give me death" quote comes to mind; I'd have rather seen them go down into the dust with a pure RPN offering than do that.
20:32:13 <KipIngram> Course I didn't own any of their stock...
20:32:38 <KipIngram> Although I think by then most of their money came from printers and stuff.
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20:33:38 <alexander> it was a tough time,.. TI was wiping them out.
20:33:45 <alexander> all the text books were getting published with TI-based examples.
20:33:48 <Pusdesris> Hi all.
20:33:53 <alexander> Pusdesris: hey
20:33:53 <KipIngram> Hey.
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20:34:06 <KipIngram> Yes.  My teens both use TI's.
20:34:15 <Deformative> There we go.
20:34:37 <KipIngram> I'm not just one of those "old guys with weird ideas" when it comes to such things as far as they're concerned.
20:34:43 <alexander> the TIs really suck too.. I used them in HS before stepping up to an HP, and they were complete garbage.
20:34:46 <KipIngram> I meant to type "I'm now..."
20:34:54 <KipIngram> Yes, I agree completely.
20:36:04 <Deformative> I never used an old hp.
20:36:06 <KipIngram> Just goes to show you that inventing a better mousetrap doens't always bring the world to your door.
20:36:10 <Deformative> TI work good enough for me.
20:36:23 <alexander> I wonder if HP is still big on Wall Street... my dad worked for Merrill Lynch, and they all had RPN HP 12Cs
20:36:23 <KipIngram> You seem like someone who would have *loved* them.
20:36:33 <Deformative> With their puny little z80, which is somehow worth $100.  x.x
20:36:37 <Deformative> That, I just don't understand.
20:36:53 <KipIngram> It wasn't about processing power; it was about usability.
20:37:12 <KipIngram> All aspects -- tactile nature of the keyboard, the layout of the functions, etc.
20:37:24 <alexander> yah.. the quality is quite high 
20:37:25 <Deformative> TI 83/84 which is the most used calculator for Algebra II and up, uses a z80.
20:37:32 <Deformative> And cost ~$100
20:37:38 <Deformative> I don't understand how that can be.
20:38:50 <KipIngram> Well, who competes with them?  Without competition pricing becomes "what the market will bear."
20:38:52 <alexander> market forces?  common expectations in pricing?
20:39:10 <KipIngram> Rather than "cost plus a 'fair' markup."
20:39:13 <alexander> everyone owns a TI calculator.  I don't know a single student these days that owns an HP.
20:39:49 <Deformative> Well, I don't know how they still sell for that, considering how many used ones there are.
20:40:03 <Deformative> But still... A z80...
20:40:18 <alexander> yah.. that's kind of typical though.
20:40:30 <KipIngram> But it's not about processing power.  A calculator only needs to do so much, and once it can that's all the processor it needs.
20:40:38 <alexander> why change the design if everyone is happy with them, and kids' parents can just head down to Staples and pick one up?
20:41:16 <KipIngram> I really rarely use a calculator anymore, though.  I use a computer.
20:41:19 <Deformative> According to digikey, a z80 is valued somewhere around $5.
20:42:01 <Deformative> That is like saying 5 operation calculators should still be in the $50 range because, why improve them?
20:42:03 <KipIngram> I think the only really major calculator market is, in fact, high school and college, where they want you to have some computing power but not too much, and more or less not generic storage capacity.  Notebooks would make it too easy to cheat on tests and stuff.
20:42:40 <KipIngram> I think they sought out the functions that would be acceptable in the classroom environment, and took calculators up to there.
20:43:18 <KipIngram> It surely would be nice, though, to be able to write an integral on the screen with a stylus and have it symbolically integrated for you, and so forth, wouldn't it?
20:43:19 <Deformative> Well, you can still cheat with a ti-83.
20:43:21 <Deformative> My entire class did.
20:43:42 <Deformative> I almost wish I got more into cheating... I might have learned z80 asm. xP
20:43:51 <Deformative> Instead of that silly calculus stuff.
20:45:51 <Deformative> It is amazing that the z80 is still such a popular processor.
20:46:06 <KipIngram> My most common calculating vehicle these days is OpenOffice's spreadsheet program.
20:46:07 <Deformative> Especially with the modern alternatives from pic and avr.
20:46:22 <Deformative> Mine is uh.. Maple 13.
20:46:34 <Deformative> Actually, pen and paper.
20:47:05 <KipIngram> Mine used to be Maple.  When I worked in university research.  I mostly manage now, and try to keep a foot in the technical stuff as much as I can.
20:47:20 <KipIngram> But my guys do the detailed calculations.
20:47:41 <Deformative> I never tried mathematica.
20:47:44 <KipIngram> The only real, serious design work I do these days I do on my own.
20:47:50 <Deformative> I was trained in class to use maple, so I never had a reason to.
20:47:52 <KipIngram> Me either.  Seemed to ivory tower somehow.
20:47:56 <KipIngram> too
20:48:30 <KipIngram> I looked over the book, and remember thinking something like "ok, when do we actually start crunching some numbers."
20:48:38 <KipIngram> Maple seemed so much more "direct."
20:49:03 <KipIngram> Hmmm... that kind of thing is sort of a theme with me, isn't it?
20:49:07 <Deformative> But maple is just so buggy.
20:49:15 <Deformative> And slow. (yay java)
20:49:19 <KipIngram> Ever tried Octave?
20:49:23 <Deformative> I have not.
20:49:30 <KipIngram> It's open source.
20:50:25 <KipIngram> Yeah, java stuff is *so* slow, isn't it?  I was messing with Eclipse on my notebook earlier.  I think I'll just use the command line and make instead.
20:50:30 <Deformative> Yeah, I tried building it, but the makefile threw an error, and I didn't care enough to look into it.
20:51:00 <KipIngram> Not just because of the speed, though; also because I don't really feel like fighting with Eclipse to get it to use the directory structure I want to use for my projects.
20:51:16 <Deformative> Yeah, Java itself is "fast" according to benchmarks and such, but in practice it is just so slow.  It encourages too many bad practices from what I see.
20:51:26 <KipIngram> I have the same complaint about Visual C; it has the fixed ideas about how it where it wants to put things, and it's hard as the dickens to talk it out of that.
20:51:49 <KipIngram> And one of the things it does it put the object files *in the same folder as the source files*.
20:52:07 <KipIngram> I don't want *anything* touching my source folders except for *me*.
20:52:14 <Deformative> Heh.
20:52:23 <Deformative> Heap objects in Java are evil.
20:52:45 <Deformative> It would be nice to get something on the stack sometimes.
20:52:58 <KipIngram> And if I want to have debug and release builds I'd like to not have to rebuild completely every time I switch, which sort of means the object files for those targets need to be in different places.
20:53:21 <Deformative> They implemented anonymous classes for function pointers just recently, but it is so cumbersome that no one will ever use them.
20:53:30 <KipIngram> Heaps are evil to begin with.  I guess you just have to have them sometimes, though.
20:53:56 <Deformative> Also, Java lends itself to using lots and lots of memory.  But memory is the bottleneck in modern software, so that is just stupid.
20:54:29 <KipIngram> Why is memory a bottleneck?  I thought it was cheap.  I suppose because you care about how much of your "working information" you can fit into the cache?
20:54:36 <Deformative> Stupidest trend ever. "Everyone has 4 gigs of memory, let's use it all so that our programs run fast!" But then the programs run slower than ever because it takes TIME to fill that memory.
20:55:44 <Deformative> Because, you don't just malloc(900000000); you actually fill it, and filling is very slow.  And then access speeds are terrible because it is so spread out, there is no cache locality to speak of.
20:55:48 <KipIngram> So we should all go back to Forth, so that we can put damn near our whole operating system in the cache.
20:55:54 <Deformative> Those articles I linked to yesterday went into a lot of detail about it.
20:56:05 <Deformative> Hehe. :D
20:56:50 <KipIngram> Yeah, haven't looked at those yet.  I did see an analysis once, thoough, that showed an order of magnitude difference in program run time just by switching from row-ordered access to column-ordered access on arrays, because of cache locality.
20:57:29 <Deformative> It is rather depressing, I went to the guy here who is the head of "programming languages" for the university, and all his interest was in Java, and implementing restrictions in java to reduce bugs.
20:57:33 <KipIngram> So, like I said, a system that lets you get lots of your functionality into the cache should attract a lot of attention.  But somehow it doesn't.
20:57:40 <Deformative> He didn't care about forth, or any minimal language at all really.
20:57:58 <KipIngram> You can't write as many papers, and the ones you do write aren't as "theoretical."
20:58:20 <KipIngram> I warned you that you might run into that.  Last Sunday afternoon, I think.
20:58:28 <Deformative> Well, this was months ago. :)
20:59:20 <Deformative> I went in there wanting to get into research in efficiency with rapid application development.
20:59:32 <Deformative> He basically said, "There is no research there, it is all in reducing bugs."
21:01:19 <Deformative> And a little bit in concurrency, but not a lot.
21:01:30 <KipIngram> We can call that guy "Wiggins."
21:02:11 <KipIngram> See, if you can develop systematic processes that reduce bugs, then you can deploy even larger hoards of programming minions toward the development of bloatware.
21:02:34 <KipIngram> And it's ever harder for "upstart" companies to take out the giants, because they can't afford a large enough hoard to keep up.
21:02:45 <Deformative> Yeah.
21:02:54 <KipIngram> If you haven't read "Thnking Forth" you may not get the Wiggins reference.
21:03:02 <Deformative> I have not.
21:03:59 <KipIngram> Basically Wiggins was the programmer from the "other" school of thought that impressed management by writing really big, complex programs, while our hero who wrote short, concise, simple Forth programs got looked down on.
21:04:18 <Deformative> Oh, I see. :D
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21:05:14 <Deformative> I wanted to propose writing a compiler to add efficient lambdas to C, with prototype data structures, and inferred type.
21:05:22 <Deformative> Then I wanted to work on the preprocessor to make it more powerful.
21:05:28 <KipIngram> I have pretty strong feelings on such things.  I've always thought that inventing Forth, while unbelievably cool, may not be the coolest thing Chuck Moore ever did.
21:05:42 <KipIngram> Naming a company "Computer Cowboys" ranks *right* *up* *there*.
21:05:47 <Deformative> Haha.
21:05:55 <KipIngram> The audacity of it is just superb.
21:06:22 <KipIngram> It implies a "devil may care, get things done" kind of attitude that I really like.
21:06:46 <Deformative> Well, it looks like I will win my class efficiency competition. 
21:06:53 <Deformative> No surprise there.
21:06:57 <Deformative> I have won every one so far.
21:07:08 <Deformative> The pathetic thing is that this time, I never even optimized.
21:07:49 <Deformative> Like, the competition was for sorting strings, and I was working on a binary insertion backed radix sort, then I decided, "Screw this, I bet I can win with quicksort." And so I did...
21:08:27 <Deformative> No need to put the extra effort in to produce superior product when I can put in "good enough." :P
21:08:30 <Deformative> Especially on exam week.
21:10:44 <Deformative> I am the only one in the whole class who even knows what a cache is... So it isn't even fair really.
21:10:57 <Deformative> I compete with the staff sometimes if I get bored.
21:11:37 <Deformative> There is a guy on staff here who is ranked globally on topcoder.
21:11:44 <Deformative> So it can be fun.
21:13:09 <Deformative> KipIngram: Have you ever experimented with sleep deprivation?  I was at like 1.5 months running on <6 hours a night. And the results were fantastic.
21:13:27 <Deformative> I messed up and got far too much sleep yesterday, so I am starting to come off my high.
21:13:39 <Deformative> Trying to get back up there with paczki and bright lights.
21:13:54 <KipIngram> Um, I did experiment with that when I was in my early 30s, but not by choice.  It was called work.
21:14:20 <Deformative> Ah, mine is by choice.
21:14:40 <Deformative> First few days were miserable.
21:14:53 <Deformative> But then it turned around.
21:15:08 <KipIngram> It paid off; I climbed the ladder.  The owner got interest from a venture capital firm.  I was one of the "key people" that they wanted golden handcuffed in.  But the owner wanted more money from them, and then the 2001 market crash came along.
21:15:11 <KipIngram> Got to love it.
21:15:19 <KipIngram> The VC ran for the hills.
21:15:37 <Deformative> Started waking up with energy, falling asleep easier, feeling as though I had more computational power.
21:16:55 <Deformative> The (arguably) negative side effect was that I began to feel distant, almost like a semi-conscious state. I could still think quicker and more effectively, but my input/output was drastically slowed.
21:17:02 <KipIngram> Yeah, look, stop that ok?
21:18:17 <Deformative> It felt like mini-sleep during the day, which is cool though, because it seems like while sleeping my mind is more focused than while awake.
21:18:32 <Deformative> And I was in an overall better mood.
21:19:19 <Deformative> When I get a full nights sleep I over analyze everything, and quite often find people to be petty quite, sometimes even feel depressed.
21:19:27 <Deformative> So I am thinking I like the sleep deprivation thing.
21:19:30 * Deformative shrugs.
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21:20:06 <Deformative> Note that I am one for oversleeping, before this little experiment I got an average of 12 hours every night for 4 years.
21:20:16 <Deformative> Which is arguably worse than sleep deprivation.
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21:21:24 <KipIngram> Yes, I do think that's worse.
21:21:34 <KipIngram> Balance.
21:22:36 <KipIngram> Speaking of which, I have an early exercise session tomorrow.  I know it's going to be something awful like full up downs until we all feel like throwing up.  You just wouldn't believe how hard it is to just lie down and get up a hundred or so times.
21:22:43 <KipIngram> So I ought to go sleep.
21:23:00 <Deformative> Why would you suggest stopping the sleep deprivation?  Just currious.
21:23:08 <KipIngram> Balance.
21:23:14 <Deformative> By this age, my brain is near fully formed, so I don't see any long term effects of it.
21:23:27 <KipIngram> Do some reading on that.
21:23:35 <Deformative> I have.
21:23:59 <Deformative> Edison and Tesla were both sleep deprived, and they were pretty smart fellas.
21:24:01 <KipIngram> Look, when I was getting three or four hours or so of sleep a night, back in my early 30's as I mentioned, I was driving home one day.
21:24:03 * Deformative shrugs.
21:24:10 <KipIngram> I was about half a mile away from my exit.
21:24:15 <KipIngram> Then I was a mile past it.
21:24:33 <Deformative> Oh man, yeah, that sort of thing happens, luckily I don't drive here.
21:24:34 <KipIngram> Do you understand?  I drove my car a mile and a half without being conscious of what I was doing.
21:24:38 <Deformative> Yes, I understand.
21:24:45 <KipIngram> I'm lucky I'm alive.
21:24:45 <Deformative> Mini-sleeps while awake.
21:25:01 <Deformative> That happens to me sometimes.
21:25:14 <Deformative> Happened to me even when I got 12+ hours, though not as often.
21:25:16 <KipIngram> Anyway, I'm off to bed.  We can pick this up later if you like.
21:25:24 <Deformative> Ok, goodnight and talk to you later.
21:25:24 <KipIngram> Everyone take care.
21:25:29 <Deformative> o/
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22:51:19 <ASau`> Stack without RPN makes more sense than you think.
22:51:27 <ASau`> Even more than stack with RPN.
22:51:33 <ASau`> Consider Poplog.
22:51:47 <ASau`> There's wonderful software written in it.
22:51:59 <Deformative> I do not know poplog.
22:52:03 <ASau`> You don't have anything close to that in Forth.
22:52:14 <Deformative> I see forth more as a language of verbs than seeing it as "rpn"
22:52:21 <Deformative> Everything is a verb. :)
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/10.02.16