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10:35:41 <Deformative> Hi all.
10:37:40 <ASau> Evening.
10:37:55 <ASau> I've managed to get pForth running in 64-bits.
10:38:14 <ASau> But the support is incomplete.
10:38:14 <Deformative> I have never played with pForth, what is it?
10:38:40 <ASau> One of two free Forth implementations around.
10:39:37 <Deformative> What does p stand for?
10:40:15 <Deformative> Ah, portable.
10:40:32 <ASau> Phil.
10:40:40 <Deformative> I wonder if it is minimalist enough to fit my needs.
10:40:44 <ASau> Or "portable."
10:40:57 <ASau> It is written in "C."
10:41:52 <Deformative> So, prbably not worth rewriting in asm.
10:48:45 <Deformative> Hm, I just thought of another reason why I really like forth.
10:49:09 <Deformative> It is like living in a world of verbs.  The opposite end of the spectrum from OOP.
10:49:20 <ASau> ???
10:49:32 <ASau> OOP is all about verbs.
10:49:51 <ASau> It is more closely resembles natural language.
10:50:35 <Deformative> I have difficulty with OOP. It is very nounish.  You see how these nouns you created relate, but you do not see the actions taken by the computer itself, the verbs.
10:51:05 <ASau> What OOP are you talking about?
10:51:15 <Deformative> C's derivatives. :P
10:51:19 <ASau> Damn.
10:51:22 <ASau> Forget them.
10:51:25 <ASau> This isn't OOP.
10:51:31 <Deformative> C++, Java, C#, D, etc.
10:51:41 <Deformative> It is OOP in the modern accepted sense.
10:51:44 <ASau> Take Smalltalk and ECMAScript.
10:51:54 <ASau> These are OOP.
10:51:55 <Deformative> Not what it was initially invisioned, I understand.
10:52:41 <ASau> C++ is old well-known modular programming.
10:53:23 <ASau> A la Ada, only with awful syntax and brain-dead modules relations rules.
10:53:39 <Deformative> Forth has little in the way of defining data structures.  It is all about how the computer gets memory, I find that interesting.
10:54:12 <ASau> Common way is Oberon-style records.
10:55:31 <Deformative> Well it is especially interesting in that in modern computing, cpu speeds are increasing rapidly, while memory speeds are hardly increasing at all. It is getting to the point where it is better to compute rather than rely on data.
10:56:34 <ASau> CPU speed isn't increasing anymore.
10:56:47 <ASau> Well... At least not so rapidly as before.
10:57:03 <Deformative> Indeed, but memory speeds have remained almost constant, relatively speaking.
10:57:36 <Deformative> Storage has increased rapidly, sure.  But what good is storage if it takes forever to access. 
10:59:05 <Deformative> And with the growing popularity of job specific co-processors, who knows how this will increase computing power in the futures.
10:59:08 <Deformative> future rather
10:59:43 <ASau> I don't notice the latter.
11:00:09 <ASau> Of course, there're some hot spots in embedded world,
11:00:31 <ASau> still in many cases they prefer to put general-purpose CPU
11:00:31 <ASau> and be done with it.
11:00:51 <Deformative> Yes, I was speaking of the embedded world.
11:01:04 <ASau> Given relatively cheap mITX boards with passive cooling,
11:01:05 <ASau> this is reasonable.
11:01:10 <Deformative> It is not uncommon to have a dsp, gpu, wireless decoder and such all on the same chip.
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11:06:41 <alex4nder> hey
11:07:15 <ASau> Evening.
11:07:31 <ASau> I've seen 64-bit pforth prompt today :)
11:07:47 <Maki> Congrats :)
11:07:53 <ASau> It can multiply 2 by 2. :D
11:08:00 <Maki> :)
11:08:01 <Deformative> Lawl.
11:08:14 <ASau> And list the dictionary.
11:08:22 <ASau> \m/ \m/
11:09:14 <ASau> Now I need to know bit width for C integer types at compile time somehow.
11:10:33 <Deformative> I do not understand.
11:10:37 <Deformative> sizeof(int), no?
11:10:46 <Deformative> Well, I suppose that is byte width.
11:11:27 <ASau> Yes, it is byte width.
11:11:32 <ASau> It isn't what I need.
11:11:57 <Deformative> Hm, I thought byte size was defined in a header somewhere.
11:12:00 * Deformative shrugs.
11:12:11 <ASau> Haha.
11:13:11 <Deformative> ;p
11:16:56 <alex4nder> : |
11:16:59 <alex4nder> Maki: how's it?
11:17:15 <Maki> Quite good. You?
11:19:07 <alex4nder> it's good.
11:19:25 <alex4nder> I'm trying to figure out NiosII/Quartus web edition for a client.
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11:19:46 <alex4nder> they have a pile of source code, and no way to build it.
11:20:02 <Maki> I've never used newer Altera tools. Only old MAX plus 2...
11:20:22 <Deformative> Oh oh, I use Quartus almost daily.
11:20:43 <Deformative> In both my Logic Design and Engineering intro class.
11:20:46 <Maki> NiosII was the softcore they used for cartrige?
11:21:00 <Deformative> We use the altera de 2.
11:21:21 <Deformative> Quartus is a terrible piece of software though.
11:21:21 <alex4nder> Maki: yah.. they have an entire design system built around it.
11:21:24 <Deformative> Segfaults all the time.
11:21:30 <alex4nder> yah
11:21:36 <Deformative> Incredibly slow. 
11:21:46 <alex4nder> the GNU make that they ship on Windows can barely build.
11:21:48 <Deformative> I do not know wha thte NiosII is htough.
11:21:57 <alex4nder> it crashes every 5 build or so.
11:22:09 <Deformative> Well, we use Quartus primarily on red hat.
11:22:30 <alex4nder> I'm trying to move this to the command-line build tools.
11:22:53 <Deformative> Apparently it a known bug in the university is that quaruts cannot navigate a directory containing a pdf.  So keep pdfs out of your directory. :P
11:22:58 <ASau> alex4nder: bmake is reported to work in Interix/SUA.
11:23:16 <Deformative> I have never tested it myself, but that is what the instructor assistants say.
11:23:40 <Deformative> quartus rather
11:24:00 <alex4nder> ASau: thanks, but they've patched their version of GNU make to do interesting things at interesting times.
11:24:09 <alex4nder> i.e. their tree won't build with a stock make.
11:24:14 <alex4nder> and I haven't investigated wihy.
11:24:58 <ASau> alex4nder: we(tm) provide full build and package management system
11:25:01 <Deformative> Well, I should get to class.
11:25:06 <ASau> that should work under Interix or SUA.
11:25:10 <Deformative> Talk to everyone later.
11:25:22 <ASau> gmake is there as well.
11:25:57 <ASau> You may take a look if you wish.
11:26:07 <alex4nder> thanks.
11:26:30 <ASau> Last time I checked it worked, but this was long ago.
11:26:57 <ASau> It should still work, if it doesn't we want to fix that. :|
11:27:00 <alex4nder> my goal today today is to get this building under Linux, using git to manage revisions.
11:27:22 <ASau> Brave man.
11:27:40 <ASau> We're working in team to do this shit.
11:28:19 <alex4nder> yah. :/
11:28:29 <alex4nder> I got the project mid last week, as an emergency request.
11:28:46 <ASau> What are you doing?
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11:29:38 <alex4nder> trying to get an FPGA-based inkjet print cartridge tester project back on track.
11:31:34 <alex4nder> the design is beyond horrible.
11:31:49 <alex4nder> so I'm trying to stop the project from bleeding to death.
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16:57:52 <Deformative> Hello again.
16:58:28 <KipIngram> Hey.
17:13:02 <Deformative> How are things?
17:31:45 <KipIngram> Good.  Just hanging out at home.  About to take my kid up to the gym for her class.
17:32:03 <KipIngram> Lost my ebay bid for that calculator. :-(
17:32:21 <KipIngram> First time I ever tried to buy anything there, though; I figured there would be some last minute dynamics I wasn't familiar with.
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17:34:53 <alex4nder> hey
17:35:27 <Deformative> Ah, yes.
17:35:42 <Deformative> Last ~9 seconds or so is when you want to put in a bid.
17:36:07 <Deformative> And don't bid until then because people will just 1-up you all the way till the end, raising the price.
17:36:15 <Deformative> That's basically my strategy.
17:36:17 <alex4nder> you guys talking about eBay?
17:36:21 <Deformative> Yes.
17:36:46 <alex4nder> yah, that place can be pretty annoying.
17:37:16 <alex4nder> I just sold a piece of rackmount gear to a guy on eBay
17:37:47 <alex4nder> it showed up at his place damaged, and rather than contacting me about it, he filed a dispute with PayPal and left me negative feedback.
17:39:12 <Deformative> I see.
17:39:17 <Deformative> I have never sold anything.
17:39:24 <alex4nder> it sucks.
17:39:43 <alex4nder> I don't think I'll ever sell anything again.
17:42:33 <Deformative> What is rackmount?
17:42:50 <Deformative> Like server stuffies?
17:44:04 <alex4nder> it was a piece of audio gear.
17:44:53 <Deformative> I see.
17:45:16 <Deformative> For some stupid reason I thought it would be climbing gear before I googled it.
18:19:50 <alex4nder> cool
18:20:06 <alex4nder> I have this Nios II project building properly under EDS 9.1
18:20:09 * alex4nder does a dance.
18:23:03 <Deformative> Hmm.
18:25:26 <alex4nder> Deformative: what're you working on?
18:25:49 <Deformative> Mmm, differential equations homework. :(
18:25:54 <Deformative> And algorithms homework.
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19:34:06 <KipIngram> Deformative: what's the topic at hand in DiffEq?
19:37:48 <Deformative> Mmm, Second order equations.
19:38:36 <KipIngram> Constant coefficients?
19:43:19 <Deformative> For the time being.
19:43:33 <Deformative> I think wednesday they stop being constant.
19:43:54 <Deformative> I just had an exam in there today actually.
19:44:04 <Deformative> And it was easy, so that sucks because it means the curve will be aweful.
19:52:28 <KipIngram> I'm reading a book tonight called "Game Coding Complete" by Mike McShaffry.  Pretty entertaining so far.
19:52:43 <Deformative> I am not a fan of game coding really.
19:52:44 <KipIngram> Not that I plan to write games, but I figured it couldn't hurt to be aware of the basic issues.
19:52:52 <Deformative> Yeah, it helps with that.
19:53:02 <Deformative> Game coders know a lot of neat little optimizations that most do not.
19:53:17 <KipIngram> Exactly.  I love that kind of thing.
19:54:06 <Deformative> Mmm, I have an article around here somewhere...
19:54:09 * Deformative searches.
19:57:15 <KipIngram> Back to the eBay thing.  Do those of you who've bought there consider it "honest," or do you think the sellers can play buyer too and try to push the price up?  Does eBay try to prevent that, or is it just a free-for-all?
19:58:37 <Deformative> http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%253A%252F%252Frealtimecollisiondetection.net%252Fpubs%252FGDC03_Ericson_Memory_Optimization.ppt&h=84079a36496652ebbafd11814e7cf159&ref=mf
19:58:44 <Deformative> Ignore that it is proxied from facebook.
19:58:50 <Deformative> I just couldn't find the origional link.
19:59:09 <Deformative> Also, I had another one like that, but I cannot seem to find it.
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20:00:54 <aum> what's the verdict on Forth as a game development language?
20:01:26 <Deformative> I really only have interest in forth as an embedded language.
20:02:16 <Deformative> KipIngram: http://realtimecollisiondetection.net/pubs/GDC03_Ericson_Memory_Optimization.ppt
20:02:18 <Deformative> That is the real url.
20:02:20 <Deformative> Much better.
20:02:20 <aum> I've tried forth for embedded projects, but I seem to keep getting pulled back to C
20:02:30 <Deformative> Now, lemmi see if I can find the others.
20:03:28 <KipIngram> C is hard to give up; it's like a drug.
20:03:45 <Deformative> Why would you want ot give up C?
20:03:56 <Deformative> Other than a burning desire for lambda expressions...
20:04:09 <KipIngram> I was just replying to aum.  I'd actually like to use Forth a lot more than I do.
20:05:37 <aum> i've used forth on and off for 24 years - for me, it falls down badly with intricate data structures and dynamically allocated items
20:06:00 <Deformative>   also cool: http://www.slideshare.net/Tony.Albrecht/parallel-programming-beyond-the-critical-section-presentation?type=powerpoint  http://seven-degrees-of-freedom.blogspot.com/2009/10/latency-elephant.html  http://tinyurl.com/yg2aj2x
20:07:19 <Deformative> Those are some of my favorite gamey articles.
20:09:31 <Deformative> They are all about roughly the same thing, but have slightly different points and presentation of the issues.
20:11:23 <KipIngram> aum: Yes, I've used it primarily in embedded applications that are mostly about manipulating hardware.
20:11:44 * Deformative wants lambdas.
20:11:52 <Deformative> I think I will hack clang to get them.
20:11:56 <Deformative> Next time my course load isn't so high.
20:14:14 <Deformative> Sometimes I wish that C were meta-circular, but then I remember that the beauty of C comes from its static nature. 
20:15:58 <KipIngram> Hmmm.  Sounds complicated.  One of the reasons that I like Forth is because I don't like too much stuff going on behind my back.  I like have very direct, concrete control over my system.
20:19:23 <Deformative> Mmm, not too complicated.
20:20:36 <Deformative> Fundamentally, what I need to be able to do is duplicate and edit functions at runtime.  So say something like void func(){int x = 0; printf("%i", x);} type *f = dup(&func); f->x = 5; f();  for example.
20:20:41 <Deformative> That would be extremely useful.
20:20:52 <Deformative> Because then functions can carry their arguments/upvalues around.
20:20:56 <Deformative> And still be C compatible.
20:21:51 <Deformative> Then I could do all sorts of cool things.
20:22:16 <Deformative> That though, is the part that will be tricky is is necessary from the beginning. 
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20:24:36 <Deformative> s/is is/and is
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22:01:31 <snotforbrains> can someone point me to the definition of invert? I am disturbed by it's behavior and would like to see its definition...
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22:29:15 <snotforbrains> nevermind i found it
22:31:44 <ASau> snotforbrains: dpANS94
22:33:59 <snotforbrains> thanks 
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