00:00:00 --- log: started forth/10.02.14 00:13:45 --- join: qFox (~C00K13S@5356B263.cable.casema.nl) joined #forth 00:55:17 --- join: Deformative (~joe@bursley-183118.reshall.umich.edu) joined #forth 00:58:26 --- join: GeDaMo (~gedamo@dyn-62-56-89-110.dslaccess.co.uk) joined #forth 01:01:46 --- join: kar8nga (~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 01:17:17 Wow, forth is amazing. 01:17:30 I never realized just how amazing it was before reading this: http://ftp.funet.fi/pub/doc/IOCCC/1992/buzzard.2.design 01:18:03 Gives meta a whole new meaning for me. 01:18:08 Well, it is 4am, I should sleep 01:18:10 o/ 02:00:41 --- quit: qFox (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 02:35:00 --- quit: |dinya_| (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 03:03:37 --- join: DrunkTomato (~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 03:59:33 --- quit: GeDaMo (Quit: Now I lay me down to sleep; Try to count electric sheep) 04:41:36 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote host closed the connection) 05:04:20 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 07:25:03 --- join: kar8nga (~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 07:36:36 --- join: GeDaMo (~gedamo@dyn-62-56-89-110.dslaccess.co.uk) joined #forth 07:41:18 --- join: erider (~chatzilla@pool-173-69-160-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 07:41:47 --- quit: erider (Changing host) 07:41:47 --- join: erider (~chatzilla@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 07:45:35 Deformative: Hey, cool article you linked earlier. I just love stuff like that. 07:51:22 --- join: snotforbrains (~snotforbr@ip68-226-15-108.ga.at.cox.net) joined #forth 07:53:08 I think I'd like to add to those concepts though -- some of the definitions given for the higher level words are kind of inefficient. 07:53:16 For example, : DROP 0 * + ; 07:54:13 I like using those definitions as a "first step" to get a working system. That gets me a system I can use to build an assembler. The I'd want a way to replace those clunky definitions with "lean and mean" ones. 07:55:14 So THIRD is a functionally complete but inefficient system, that you then use to build an efficient Forth. 07:58:02 KipIngram: what was the article 07:58:48 erider: http://ftp.funet.fi/pub/doc/IOCCC/1992/buzzard.2.design 07:58:59 Yeah, what he said. :-) 07:59:08 Beat me by a few seconds. 07:59:11 :P 07:59:38 It defines a language the author calls FIRST that's a virtual machine with just twelve primitives. 07:59:43 Then builds on that. 08:00:20 The other day on here we were talking about that "three instruction Forth" that's documented out there somewhere, and someone (Asau, maybe) pointed out that it was just a toy. 08:00:40 And I agree -- it really just gives you a canned way of hooking a host's Forth to a target system. 08:01:03 This one, though, looks real -- implement the twelve primitives and your target system is capable of eating source code. 08:01:40 It is well-known that you can build complete programming system using only single instruction. 08:01:49 This is proved result. 08:01:50 I'm a fan of quick and simple ways of breathing Forth into new hardware. 08:02:14 That it is efficient in any way, is outside the scope of consideration. 08:02:33 Yes, that's true, but I'd like for even the bootstrap system to be at least reasonably efficient. 08:03:28 Not outside the scope of mine. 08:04:05 Check "Lambda the Ultimate" papers. 08:04:28 They designed efficient CPU. 08:04:36 Both in hardware and software terms. 08:04:46 Though this isn't even close to Forth. 08:06:12 Looks interesting, but also like a fair bit to absorb. I'll have to mull them over a while before having a firm opinion, I think. 08:07:16 I admit I have a pretty strong bias toward Forth-like systems, but on the other hand I'm a *big* fan of attempts to design the processor and the software architecture at the same time, in a way that works really well. So I will have to give this a fair reading. 08:07:30 Another interesting source to check is Smalltalk hardware. 08:07:38 E.g. that of early 80s. 08:07:55 Yes, I remember Smalltalk. 08:08:02 Unfortunately I am that old. :-| 08:08:04 Smalltalk is definitly more efficient in software terms than Forth. 08:08:19 thanks GeDaMo 08:08:31 Maybe Self folks have something similar. 08:09:09 My main interests revolve around developing embedded systems, so the really sophisticated stuff is generally beyond my needs. Forth has such a nice simplicity to it. 08:10:17 You can use any language in embedded system. 08:11:59 Indeed - and I have a preference for Forth generally speaking. Simple, efficient, easy to understand (both the system and your application code), etc. 08:29:22 is there a command like forget to use with gforth? 08:30:05 word i should say 08:35:51 marker foo 08:35:54 .... code .... 08:35:54 foo 08:36:10 the ... code... will be forgotton and the marker removed 08:41:55 Key word is "sometimes." 08:42:20 The code will be forgotten and marker removed _provided_ 08:42:20 markers are implemented correctly. 08:42:48 This isn't the case, e.g., for gforth. 08:50:17 thanks 09:01:37 ASau: I've not used marker in gforth, so haven't had any problems with it yet 09:02:51 KipIngram: Agreed. 09:03:19 KipIngram: I am hopefully going to be implementing a forth on a custom processor for school, but I don 09:03:24 't know if my group will go for it. 09:03:37 They will probably be stupid and say they want to make mario using asm or something stupid like that. 09:04:02 (Yet another Forth implementation...) 09:04:18 I wish that article gave the differences between third and forth. 09:04:31 So that I don't need to figure all that out myself. 09:04:33 * Deformative shrugs. 09:05:01 Just don't. 09:05:11 Better go anywhere else and implement Smalltalk. 09:05:22 There're too few Smalltalk implementations. 09:06:33 I am not a fan of OOP. 09:06:45 I do not know smalltalk really. 09:07:01 But I write code which is too horizontal to like oop. 09:07:40 And I use function pointers all over the place. I don't really like OOP style polymorphism. 09:08:08 Which OOP style are you talking about? 09:08:51 All the C derivs I suppose. 09:09:05 I like C more than any of it's children. 09:09:57 Then go and learn Smalltalk. 09:10:25 This is better than designing and implementing yet another broken Forth. 09:10:40 --- quit: snotforbrains (Remote host closed the connection) 09:10:59 But I think making forth would be a good project for this. We designed a crappy cpu which has 20 instructions, most of them are very redundant, and we have about 1.5 months to do a software project on this cpu. 09:11:16 I think forth is the only language that would be easily bootstrapped on this thing. 09:11:44 Port C. 09:12:07 I need to write something to run on the chip itself. 09:12:27 The chip has vga output and keyboard input. 09:13:14 It has 16 bit words, and however much memory you can address with 16 bit. 09:13:54 65536 16 bit words of memory. 09:15:01 You can use bank switching. 09:15:43 Possible. 09:16:03 But I am still thinking forth would be the best/funnest project I could work on. 09:19:08 And the chip is like, 100mhz. Though, the instruction set is aweful, so it will be much slower than typical 100mhz. 09:21:16 Deformative: I'd enjoy chatting with you offline about Forth processor design. I've given that a good bit of thought. I have a Spartan 6 development kit that I want to use to try out my ideas. 09:21:20 Just have to find the time. 09:21:43 I also don't really like OOP. 09:21:54 I sort of admire "what it is," but I don't like using it. 09:21:58 In class we used hte atme de2 to design our processor. 09:22:07 We didn't get to choose the instruction set though. 09:22:21 atmel rather 09:22:27 --- quit: erider (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 09:22:40 altera 09:22:41 KipIngram: that's because you don't know OOP. 09:22:43 I'm going from the gate level, so I can have any instruction set I want. Pondering that just seems to take large amounts of time. 09:22:44 not atmel 09:23:00 Well, we did ours from the gate level too. 09:23:08 Yes, I'm sure. I know "enough to be dangerous" but not enough to really embrace it. As I said, I do have an appreciation for what it is. 09:23:18 We did parts with gates, but mostly we used verilog. 09:23:29 But once again most lof my programming tasks are quite simple, and I just don't need all of the elegance and protections that OOP brings to me. 09:23:45 I can code in something simple like Forth (or assembly, for that matter) and keep it all straight in my head. 09:23:50 This is the board the processor is implemented on: http://www.altera.com/education/univ/materials/boards/unv-de2-board.html 09:24:09 I've used Altera in the past, but I'm most familiar with Xilinx. 09:24:13 C is my favorite language for larger projects, without doubt. 09:24:29 I am trying to start up a compiler for C that supports lambda expressions. 09:24:32 Then I will be complete. 09:24:37 C is the one that I know the best that's generally available. And it always has the libraries you need to get stuff done. 09:26:06 I really hope my professor/team go for the idea of making a forth system. 09:26:16 But like I said, I am probably going to end up doing mario..... >.> 09:26:58 Good luck with that. Even if it is "yet another Forth" it will still be educational. 09:27:05 Which is the point, right. 09:27:07 ? 09:28:52 Yes, that is the point. 09:29:02 It isn't meant to be useful, it is meant to learn and get a good grade. 09:29:53 I plan to build my data and return stacks out of gates rather than sticking them in memory. That does mean I will have to choose a depth limit, but stack operations are just so much faster that way. 09:30:28 And since I can pack several opcodes into each memory word I have the opportunity to do several stack operations for each word fetch. So that part works out fairly well. 09:31:23 Threading will be built into the hardware -- one bit will tell me whether a memory word is a pointer or a set of packed opcodes. If it's a pointer the hardware will push the current location onto the return stack and start fetching from the target address. 09:31:27 I am not educated enough to comment really. This is my first microprocessor and it is an intro course on the subject, just to get student's feet wet in computer engineering. 09:31:59 I'd be delighted to answer any questions you have along the way. 09:32:21 Cool! Thankyou. 09:33:22 I am rather well versed in software engineering, I have educated myself quite a bit there in high school, and I am in the higher level courses here at univeristy, but I am brand new to computer engineering. 09:33:46 I am majoring in computer engineering with software focus, so basically I will be writing compilers and operating systems for most of my college career. :D 09:34:09 Also, I just landed an internship at qualcomm. 09:34:24 So I am getting a ton of experience, really digging it. :) 09:34:33 Forth has some interesting lessons to offer. So do other things too -- if you hang out here very much you'll find that there's also a lot of support here for Lisp, Scheme, and some others. 09:34:46 Scheme was my frist programming language. 09:34:48 I'll leave it to Asau to ring those bells. :-) 09:35:09 SICP was my introduction into programming. 09:35:19 Then I learned C and friends. 09:35:28 And many others that don't really matter. 09:36:21 ^^ 09:38:07 That's great on the Qualcomm internship. Way to go. 09:39:03 Yeah, I am excited. Even if I am a grunt, I will have experience and be surrounded by the cutting edge of technology. 09:39:06 I did what they called "cooperative engineering education" when I was in college. With General Dynamics (F16 fighter avionics) and IBM (industrial robotics and some other stuff). 09:39:12 Mirasol displays and the snapdragon chip are amazing. 09:39:33 It's great to get some hands-on experience at that point in your training. Otherwise it's hard to get the "why" of things. 09:39:37 * crc is waiting for ereaders with mirasol ;) 09:39:46 crc: Me too. 09:39:56 I am hoping I can get my hands on a prototype while I am there. 09:40:11 Where are you geographically? 09:40:20 University of Michigan. 09:40:40 Cool. I'm in Houston. Did my college work at UT Austin. 09:40:41 Deformative: I like the eink displays, but the mirasol's faster refresh would be great. plus color :) 09:40:58 Lenovo skylight is a fun device too. I got to play with a prototype when they came to the university. 09:41:09 They couldn't get rid of me -- I pestered them all the way through a PhD and then worked there for a while before moving to Houston. 09:41:45 I love the idea of eink -- yes, when we get that to color and faster refresh it will change the world, I think. 09:41:53 An arm in a laptop, so cool. Plus they are working on porting adobe flash. 09:42:55 I like devices with long, *long* battery life. I want to be able to do anything I please all the way through the day, solid, without any concern whatsoever for the batteries running down. 09:43:20 Well, skylight has 10 hours of battery life. 09:43:32 The mirasol displays promise 30+ hours iirc. 09:44:07 the beauty of bistable displays :) 09:44:20 KipIngram: Was a PhD worth it? I am trying to decide which path I want to take. 09:44:29 I am currently leaning toward just a MSE. 09:45:09 If I skip the MSE and go straight for PhD, I will get it much sooner, but I am not sure it is worth it. 09:46:04 It's something like, I have to take 30 credits to get an MSE, or 38 credits + thesis to get PhD. If I have an mse, then PhD takes 18 credits + thesis. 09:46:20 Somethign along those lines, I probably have the numbers a little bit off. 09:51:55 30+ hours -- now that's what I'm talking about. 09:52:03 10 is great but doesn't get me where I need to be. 09:52:56 My feelings on the degrees are that a master's boosts your future income by enough to be worth it, but a PhD maybe not. Get a PhD if you burn to do research-type stuff, but not for money's sake. It probably won't pay off. 09:53:13 But if you've got the horsepower for graduate degrees then by all means don't stop short of a master's. 09:53:21 It will set you apart in the job market. 09:54:35 I am happy I have my PhD, and I used it while working at the university, but none of the higher-income jobs I've held in my career have required or utilized it. 09:54:42 --- join: Maki (~Maki@dynamic-78-30-167-37.adsl.eunet.rs) joined #forth 09:55:18 I fear that PhD would make me over qualified. And currently, I find school extremely boring and miserable, so I want to get out of here sooner, but that can change when I get into more interesting courses. 09:57:44 Graduate work does become more interesting. You do have to master the stuff you're working on now, though. It's tedious but those are required building blocks. :-) 09:58:06 Well, as far as software, I have done all of this nonsense when I was 14. 09:58:11 So it is boring and trivial. 09:58:26 And chemistry, I will never EVER use chemistry. :D 09:58:30 There's no mechanism for "placing out" of some of that work? 09:58:44 I placed out of every course I could except chemistry. 09:59:01 Well, that's how I felt about basic electromagnetic field theory when I was an undergraduate. 09:59:16 I figured I was into digital electronics, which was far, far removed. 09:59:49 Then in graduate school I specialized in EM field theory, and even if I hadn't digital logic is now so fast that field effects matter in day-to-day design. 10:00:05 I suppose it would have been possible to place out of some of the more advanced programming courses as well, but I didn't know the right people to do such and I suppose it is ok to take these, they are light on the coursework and raise my gpa. 10:00:18 So you just never know; we may be programming molecular computers at some point, and you may think in chemical terms constantly. 10:00:38 Or not; I'm just pointing out that things change. 10:00:55 Well, this is chemistry lab. I tested out of the core Chemistry class. 10:01:01 I used to go to sleep way back at the back of my em fields class. 10:01:15 So it is basically an exercise in "group work." 10:01:20 Then it turned out when I started graduate school that the prof was the chief scientist of the research facility I worked for. 10:01:42 When he met me in the hall he said, "Ah, I remember you. You were in my class. You sat in the back. You went to sleep a lot." 10:01:49 God, I felt about two inches tall. 10:02:49 Hehe. 10:03:10 Hey, I better go for a while. My wife is bustling around tidying up the house, and I sense that unless I pitch in and help I may not have as good a Valentine's Day as I'm hoping for. ;-) 10:03:15 You guys take care; catch you later. 10:03:23 Yep, seeya. 10:13:13 --- quit: madwork (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 10:35:36 --- join: erider (~chatzilla@pool-173-69-160-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 10:35:43 --- quit: erider (Changing host) 10:35:43 --- join: erider (~chatzilla@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 11:07:58 --- join: snotforbrains (~snotforbr@ip68-226-15-108.ga.at.cox.net) joined #forth 12:07:02 --- join: segher (~segher@84-105-60-153.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 12:08:37 --- quit: erider (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 12:22:00 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 12:46:22 Just put a bid on eBay for an HP-41CV calculator. My first forray into reverse Polish - freshman year in college. I remember that calculator very fondly. 12:47:34 Hah. 12:48:37 In certain ways I think that era (early 1980's) represented a high-water mark for calculator design. Obviously processors and so forth have gotten better and better, but other aspects of calculator offerings have deteriorated. Like the quality of the keys, and things like that. 12:48:59 I could do "one-handed touch typing" on my 41CV. :-) 12:49:05 Using all five fingers. 12:49:24 Later generations go more and more "chicklet". 12:49:36 I'm sure it all had to do with cost-cutting. 12:50:02 I am trying to write a proposal about why a forth system would be the best possible option for my team's project. 12:50:06 Hah. 12:50:21 What are your core arguments? 12:51:10 That very little ASM would need to be done, scalability to meet time restrictions, highly educational. 12:51:15 Same thing happened to Palm handheld organizers. Somewhere around the late 1990's they hit a zenith (glass touch screens, durable, etc. etc.) It was down from there, as they replaced the glass with plastic that wore out in a few months and so forth. 12:51:24 Nothing ever worked as well as my Palm Vx. 12:52:17 Yeah, most modern io is garbage. And the devices themselves lack durability. 12:52:28 Stress portability, too. That FIRST, then THIRD link we posted and chatted about earlier would be good to read - portability was a key aspect of that. Just twelve primitives to do in asm and the rest can be in portable FIRST. 12:53:00 Everything is meant to be cheap and disposable today. 12:53:24 no one appreciates quality anymore 12:53:39 I wouldn't even really mind the disposability if the things just *worked* as well as the old ones. I could never enter text as fast on later PDAs as I could that Vx. 12:53:57 And I could never "fly" later calculators as fast as I could the 41CV. 12:55:01 I do. I remember when I bought my wife one of the early iPods for her birthday. When I held it in my hand it felt like a solid little brick, and I remember thinking "Wor, that just *feels* so good. Feels like it will last." 12:56:17 Deformative: one problem you may run into proposing Forth as a learning vehicle is that it's decidedly "non formal" when it comes to its computer science aspects. 12:56:47 Well, this is a non-formal sort of project. 12:56:52 It is independent study more or less. 12:56:52 You don't see much in the Forth literature on things like lexical analysis, LALR parsing, syntax diagrams, and other such stuff. 12:56:58 Then we nee dto present our project at the end of the term. 12:57:16 That may lessen its appeal to academic types. 12:57:28 Like, the first half of the course, they teach us computer engineering, then the second half of the term is independent programming. 12:58:02 On the other hand, I opened up that site that ASau recommended earlier (Lambda the Ultimate) and clicked through to one of the documents and saw nothing but such things. 12:58:23 Lambda the Ultimate is a fantastic website. 12:58:32 I want to start posting on there, but I am afraid. 12:58:34 Heh. 12:58:38 My eyes glazed over. It was like opening a math book and seeing nothing but "Theorem: Proof: Lemma: etc." 12:58:50 Yeah, it does suffer from that. 12:58:58 I am going to keep looking, but I hope to find some more "pragmatically applicable" stuff. 12:59:01 But it is a highly intelligent community. 12:59:15 You won't find much. It is mostly programming language theory. 12:59:22 I tend toward math books that quickly tell me how to *do the math*. 12:59:35 Agreed. 12:59:42 That is why I want to post instead of read. 12:59:55 But I feel I might be overwhelmed by the responses. 12:59:55 That's one thing I love about Forth - it's "wheels to the road" right out the gate. 13:00:06 * Deformative shrugs. 13:00:28 After my coursework slows down I will see what I can do there. 13:01:00 KipIngram: I told you about papers, not about the site. 13:01:34 I did enjoy compiler theory back when I was younger. Somewhere I have a copy of that old classic "dragon book," along with a few other seminal texts on operating systems, assemblers, and so on. 13:01:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_the_Ultimate#The_Lambda_Papers 13:01:48 I have a copy of the dragon book too. 13:01:55 Never read it. 13:02:08 It is on my bed at the moment. 13:02:15 Oh, ok ASau. Thanks. I just read too quickly and then Googled Lambda the Ultimate. 13:02:18 (Not that I sleep with it.) 13:02:50 So it's still considered an important work? Woudln't have surprised me if that was old hat now, the way the world tends to change. 13:02:55 I did enjoy "Essentials of Programming languages." 13:03:10 I read it most of it when I was younger, I don't remember much anymore. 13:03:17 KipIngram: in particular, I refered to "LAMBDA: The Ultimate Opcode." 13:03:17 Same here. 13:03:44 Yes, I thought I was going there to read about the one instruction instruction set you mentioned. 13:03:47 I'll track that down. 13:04:19 Oh, those standard morons... 13:04:30 They so easily break compatibility and don't even discuss it. 13:05:26 KipIngram: You might enjoy "Essentials of Programming languages" it is very lispy though. 13:05:42 I shoul re-read it again someday. 13:05:47 I just am so pressed for time. x.x 13:06:45 I also have a copy of "Design concepts in Programming Languages," which a professor gave me and I would like to read, I just haven't found time. 13:06:48 So much to get done. x.x 13:06:58 I also want to learn ML. xD 13:07:38 But damn, I have 2 exams monday, this proposal due monday, and ages of coursework due tuesday. 13:09:25 Man, I'm glad those days are behind me. 13:09:58 But it sounds like you're pushing to get everything you can out of them, which is great. 13:10:09 Yeah, I skipped freshman year. 13:10:16 Thirst for knowledge is a great thing to have. 13:10:27 And I have been taking/plan to take the maximum courseload every term. 13:11:00 Not so much thirst for knowledge as it is cheapness. I pay for 18 credits, I am going to take 18 credits. :P 13:11:24 And since I graduate early, I save a whole year's tuition. 13:11:33 $25,000 a term is a lot. 13:11:38 I really should get scholarships. :( 13:12:15 875000 13:12:22 Yes, that's a lot. 13:12:33 Hmm... That's really huge sum. 13:12:36 UofM's a public school, right? 13:12:43 I didn't think public schools were that expensive. 13:13:01 I would have guessed maybe a third of that. 13:13:07 Per year. 13:13:16 How long is the term? 13:13:54 Yes. 13:14:00 I have a daughter that's starting to think about college. 13:14:45 Michigan is a great school. 13:14:59 Just about every department is ranked top 10 nationally. 13:15:01 How long is the term? 13:15:11 So's UT Austin, and I don't think it's that expensive. It has a huge oil money endowment, though. 13:15:19 Term is uhh, january-may 13:15:31 5 months? 13:15:34 $25k per *semester*??? 13:15:41 That's nuts. 13:15:44 No, 12.5 per semester. 13:15:46 For in state. 13:15:52 Ok; $25k per year. 13:15:54 Yes. 13:15:57 That's still high, but not as bad. 13:16:00 It is more for out of state. 13:16:08 Out of state pay like 45k per year or so. 13:16:12 Sure, that's common. 13:16:13 72916 a month. 13:16:25 That's all very high. 13:16:40 Damn, I'm not paid at full-time job that high. 13:16:54 Well, the education from here is well worth it. 13:17:11 Is that for all expenses? Tuitiion, room and board, etc? My daughter says UT Austin is like $8k - $9k a year. Tuition only. 13:17:25 And UT has some leading programs too. 13:17:26 Even in just number of connections made. The alumni for this school is HUGE, so many powerful people came from here. 13:17:35 I don't know about all of them, but plenty, especially in various fields of engineering. 13:17:41 And so, having something in common with these people helps. :) 13:17:47 But after all, you don't major in all of them. Just one. :-) 13:18:00 KipIngram: Yes, that includes everything. 13:18:43 Ok, so that's not how I'm used to measuring it. Once you add in all other expenses (books, rent, etc.) then these other places might be more comparable. 13:18:50 Well you may not major in all of them, but your employer tends to see the school name before the department name. 13:19:00 Michigan was my backup school. 13:19:07 I got rejected from MIT. 13:19:25 MIT is 50k per year. 13:19:28 I got accepted there but couldn't afford it. 13:19:45 That was early 1980's. 13:19:51 Wow, nice. 13:20:22 Well, my internship at Qualcomm will help offset the price of tuition by quite a bit. 13:20:28 My practical decision was between UT Austin and Georgia Tech. I guess Georgia Tech was really a better engineering school that UT, but my dad got his PhD at UT, so there was some nostagia. 13:20:33 So I suppose my education is paying for itself. 13:20:57 Now of course I couldn't imagine having done any differently, since I wouldn't have met my wife, had the same kids, etc. etc. 13:20:58 Still would be nice to get some scholarship though. 13:21:58 Qualcomm is paying me $22/hour with free housing and transportation. I think that's pretty good for being 18. :) 13:22:40 If you rewound me back to 1980 and put money for tuition in my hands, but with full foreknowledge of the life I've led, I'd very carefully try to do everything exactly the same (including the mess of my first marriage, etc. etc.) just to get to the family I have now. 13:23:13 Yeah, that's fantastic. 13:23:20 That's a good way to think about it. 13:23:22 How many hours do you get to work? 13:23:31 Pretty much as long as I want it sounds like. 13:23:52 After I finish the initial project, I get to help out other teams. 13:24:02 Well, my wife and I had our anniversary dinner last night (13 years), so such corny stuff is on my mind the last few hours. :-) 13:24:31 Heh, well that's a good feeling. 13:24:46 Perhaps someday I will be able to say the same. 13:24:50 Right now, probably not. 13:25:10 Well, it sounds like you've got yourself a great situation going education-wise. I hope things continue to go so well for you, on that and other fronts. 13:26:11 Hopefully. 13:26:29 Though, I find myself not liking my social situation. 13:27:16 I don't think I have any real friends to speak of. Not really anyone who I can just go out and relax with, it is always like an event/effort to go do something. 13:27:30 * Deformative shrugs. 13:28:18 In fact it is better to think about it now. 13:28:36 Hm? 13:28:59 It is demonstrated that almost all friends are acquired during studentship. 13:29:20 Yeah, which makes me uncomfortable. 13:29:21 This means university. 13:29:47 I mean, I don't really see myself as someone who requires friends. I am perfectly content with isolation, but I don't want to die alone. 13:30:22 There are just so many people here it is hard to get to know a few of them, it seems like I get to know a lot of them superficially. And most of them seem rather petty. 13:30:37 Wait a bit, there's enlightening URL just for your consideration. 13:31:26 And being valentines day, it is an especially depressing time of year. :P 13:31:29 But not exclusivively. In fact, all of my current friends are people I met on the job or in connection with activities my children partcipated in. 13:31:39 Sorry, SIGFOOD. 13:31:43 In 1/2 ohur. 13:31:44 My wife was a student when I met her, but I wasn't; I was on the research staff by then. 13:31:59 ASau: I do not understand. 13:32:05 My first wife and I met when we were both students, though. 13:33:02 KipIngram: Fascinating, perhaps that will be motivation for me to go PhD. 13:33:40 Right now, nearly everyone in all of my classes is significantly older than me. 13:33:54 In my programming class, my 'friend' is 27. x.x 13:34:48 Skipping freshman year, being a young student to begin with, and taking much harder classes than typical results in most people being older than me. 13:34:48 :-) Yes, winding up with a wife 10 years younger than myself certainly isn't something I consider terrible. 13:35:39 The girl I like was a year ahead of me in high school, and she went here, so when I came here I took some classes with her. I am rapidly getting ahead of her though.. 13:37:05 And she doesn't like me much, just seems like she talks to me when she needs help on homework or sth. 13:38:21 Oh well, these things happen I suppose. 13:38:27 You know, my advice on such issues isn't going to seem very helpful to you at all right now, but I'll stick it out there anyway. 13:38:52 You will find, if you remain single, that men in there early 30's or so become very sought after. Particularly men that have good careers. 13:39:02 My first marriage spanned from age 20 or so to age 32. 13:39:12 Before my first marriage I could hardly get any attention from wo men. 13:39:18 Stick it out on the same girl, or stick it out in general? 13:39:25 But in between marriages it was like shooting fish in a barrel, frankly. 13:39:48 Heh, I have been sticking it out on her for eh, 3 years, what's another few. :P 13:39:54 So try not to plug yourself into any kind of relatiionship out of desperation or concern that "you better take what you can." 13:40:06 That makes sense, thankyou. 13:40:06 Hold out for something fantastic, because there will come a time when you have lots of options. 13:40:25 It is jsut difficult at times like valentines day, makes me feel especially lonely. Heh. 13:40:52 Sleep deprivation seems to help my mental state. 13:41:01 So I have been practicing that lately. 13:41:28 Absolutely -- I know that feeling. That's why I said my advice wasn't going to seem very helpful right now. 13:41:50 No, it is rather helpful. 13:41:51 Certainly have girlfriends if you can -- just don't let them pin you down into marriage unless you really, really believe they're who you want to be with. 13:42:24 This is a good time to focus on your future, but that doesn't mean you don't have a need for some companionship and so forth. We all do. 13:43:09 (pun on forth! Yay for ontopic xD) 13:43:23 But yes, that helps, thanks. 13:44:19 Out of curiosity, where do you work now? 13:48:42 Yeah, sorry about the off topic stuff. At least we weren't interrupting a conversation. I manage the engineering / R&d team for a down-hole oil tools company. We do a lot of the design work behind Halliburton's product line, and some for Weatherford. 13:49:15 No, off topic is good. :) 13:49:18 I don't think the ops here mind. 13:49:33 Oh I see. Cool. 13:50:49 I would like to be a higher up in a company someday. Unfortunately I think it will be difficult to get upper management to sit up and take notice of me, especially since middle management will take all the credit for any work I do, regardless of how exceptional it may be. 13:51:42 I've been in management since the late 1990's, but this is the first job I've had where I have a hard time getting myself plugged into the technical work. I'm pretty much "just a manager." The guys working for me are extremely capable, and had everything in order technically when I showed up. At my previous managerial jobs my fingerprints were all over everything. I sort of miss that. 13:52:11 For one thing, I'm probably a lot more replaceable in this job than I was in those earlier ones. 13:52:25 --- join: tathi (~josh@dsl-216-227-91-166.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 13:52:43 Yeah, jobs in software seem dynamic. 13:52:47 hey all 13:52:55 Hey tathi. 13:53:03 I want to seat myself in a position of power someday, but I am not seeing a direct path. 13:53:42 I think entrepreneurship may take too long in modern times. 13:53:43 I think modern companies, especially big ones, don't want to have "critical individuals" on there staff. They favor a "process based" approach to development that makes any given person reoasnably replaceable. 13:53:47 Well, postmodern. 13:54:00 Hi tathi. 13:54:19 Bleh. This is why I don't have a career. :) 13:55:21 I hate it -- I made my career at a company that let me become a star. It was a small company. Later I worked for a big corporation and couldn't stand it; I would up finding myself another small company and left as soon as I did. 13:55:37 I am not so interested in a career, but power. I would really like to have the ability to change the situation to my liking. 13:56:12 Deformative: http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp 13:56:19 I would like to be at the top of a big company someday. :D 13:56:21 Hmmm. Power comes hard -- it's primarily political. 13:56:31 Deformative: and so on. 13:56:34 But at the same time, I really enjoy technology. 13:56:40 Thanks ASau, I will read that. 13:56:45 This is simplified theory, but it makes some sense. 13:56:47 And, in the end, you get beaten. 13:57:01 As you move into your 50's or 60's, the young bucks in their 40's will push you out. 13:57:10 Well, "knowledge is power" as they say. 13:57:11 That's when you need to be willing to let yourself get "kicked upstairs". 13:57:18 It isn't strictly political power I am interested in. 13:57:40 Well, I meant corporate politics. 13:57:45 Not government or anything. 13:57:45 --- join: alex4nder (~alexander@wsip-72-215-164-129.sb.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 13:57:47 hey 13:57:50 Yeah, understood. 13:57:51