00:00:00 --- log: started forth/10.01.07 00:19:50 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x708D5A0C) joined #forth 00:55:08 --- join: dandersen (i=96d65e65@metabug/dandersen) joined #forth 01:08:11 --- quit: segher ("This computer has gone to sleep") 01:08:13 --- quit: nighty__ (Client Quit) 01:18:47 --- join: addled (n=adl@21.Red-81-38-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 01:22:24 --- quit: dandersen (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) 01:27:13 --- quit: PoppaVic (Client Quit) 01:56:08 --- join: H4ns (n=Hans@p57BBC8BD.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 02:00:37 --- quit: H4ns1 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 03:16:46 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 03:19:51 --- join: I440r (n=mark4_@c-69-136-171-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:12:45 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 04:19:21 --- join: DrunkTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 04:41:55 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x708D5A0C) joined #forth 04:43:14 --- join: InvisibleTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 04:55:55 Does anyone know if freenode has any channels that focus on music electronics (vocoders, harmony/voice boxes, effects boxes, etc. etc.)? 05:10:54 --- quit: DrunkTomato (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:14:50 --- join: dandersen (n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen) joined #forth 06:28:46 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:44:14 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 06:52:58 --- quit: InvisibleTomato (Client Quit) 07:13:48 --- join: segher (n=segher@84-105-60-153.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 07:16:39 --- join: DrunkTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 07:40:00 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:40:25 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 07:45:51 --- join: qFox (n=C00K13S@5356B263.cable.casema.nl) joined #forth 07:53:25 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pops@adsl-99-150-132-96.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 08:14:29 --- join: GeDaMo (n=gedamo@dyn-62-56-89-110.dslaccess.co.uk) joined #forth 08:18:30 --- quit: DrunkTomato (Remote closed the connection) 08:22:00 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:22:25 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 08:29:28 --- join: pgas (n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/pgas) joined #forth 08:47:30 --- join: tathi (n=josh@dsl-216-227-91-166.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 08:47:48 KipIngram: did you try asking in ##electronics? 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I want to see Texas kick Alabama's ... 17:02:31 --- quit: dandersen (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 17:09:09 --- quit: nighty__ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:18:00 hey 17:19:13 Hey alex4nder 17:20:50 how's it? 17:21:20 Good thanks, you? 17:21:56 can't complain. 17:22:30 I'm like MPE forth.. I'm thinking of bringing up umbilical mode. 17:23:36 --- quit: schme (Remote closed the connection) 17:23:39 --- join: schme (n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se) joined #forth 17:23:50 er likingt 17:23:53 haha liking. 17:24:33 :) 17:24:40 Never played with MPE 17:25:25 so far, it rocks. 17:25:46 and has been worth the money.. which is a first for me. every commercial compiler I've ever used has sucked majorly. 17:35:35 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 17:47:29 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 17:50:22 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:50:40 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 17:58:48 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:17:09 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 18:23:48 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:24:09 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 18:28:20 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:38:49 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@210.188.173.245) joined #forth 20:38:13 --- join: gogonkt_ (n=info@59.39.13.53) joined #forth 20:49:15 --- quit: gogonkt (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:43:06 --- quit: segher ("This computer has gone to sleep") 21:55:30 --- quit: Quartus` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:56:55 --- quit: alex4nder (Client Quit) 21:58:20 --- nick: gogonkt_ -> gogonkt 22:00:25 Does anyone know a cheap source for knobs? Like instrument control knobs? I spent the morning choosing parts for a new design. Picked a processor, an FPGA, an A/D converter, etc. etc. All the stuff I thought would "matter." Then I started looking at how to do the control panel and found out that stinking little plastic knobs cost an arm and a leg. 22:01:16 I figured they'd be injection molded popcorn and come in at $0.10 - $0.25 a pop. But I haven't found a single one that's under a dollar in small volume, and most are several dollars. 22:01:28 It's bad when your guess is off by going on two orders of magnitude. 22:01:42 I can't figure out what makes them so expensive. 22:01:53 petroleum ;-) 22:02:04 Radio Shack: Sticks To Kids! 22:03:54 How does "petroleum" explain why knobs are expensive but opamps, resistors, and even dsPICS and Xilinx FPGAs aren't? 22:04:00 At least relatively. 22:04:23 plastics vs ceramics 22:04:38 other than that: because you'll pay it. 22:04:47 I even found a place where I can get entire injection molded cases, all drilled, machined, and screen printed, for just a few $$ a pop. 22:05:01 --- join: dandersen (n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen) joined #forth 22:05:06 Well, yes - the price is what the market will bear. But *why* does competition not drive knobs down like it does everything else? 22:05:21 All the thing is is a bit of plastic. 22:05:27 With a dob of paint. 22:05:33 because we've outsourced the universe. 22:05:44 Seriously - that's *all* it is. It doesn't "do" anything. 22:06:19 I'm really considering looking at injection molding services and just making my own instead of buying them premade. I almost think I'll save money. 22:06:19 I've used them, fixed them and worked the plants that used to make similar: I know. 22:07:09 Like this: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=450-1706-ND. Look at that and tell me why it should cost $7.21 each. 22:07:12 It's madness. 22:07:49 because they are shipping as well 22:08:23 No no - shipping is on top of the purchase price. 22:09:22 I'm usually pretty pleased with the price of electronics-related things. They're mostly commodities. Something feels broken in this case. 22:10:02 And the funny thing is this. Digikey puts prices for everything on its site, but most of the places I called trying to find something cheaper *wouldn't even tell me the price*. 22:10:25 Yes.. I've seen that more and more commonly. 22:10:31 It's like walking into one of these jewelry stores where they carefully have all the price tags turned over, under glass, so you can't know what anything costs without talking to a salesperson. 22:10:56 "If you need to ask, you can't afford it." 22:10:58 It's like it's some kind of a secret. Drove me crazy all afternoon. 22:12:31 I can't decide whether to just bite the bullet and buy the knobs I need or try to devise an entirely different control strategy. The problem is that I'm working on something for a well-established market and I don't know how a brand new product that didn't "fit the mold" would go over. 22:13:13 analog knobs work. Sliders work. digital-stepwise blippers *might* work 22:14:09 I haven't priced sliding potentiometers yet. 22:14:27 But I don't see why a rectangular "knob" would be any cheaper than a rotary knob, though I haven't checked. 22:14:42 THe ones I've had had some durability issues, but then.. THey were prolly trash 22:15:02 But the problem there is that a "cutout" in my case costs me $0.65, whereas a drill hole costs just $0.145. 22:15:14 So even if I save on the thing you grab I pay it back on the machining. 22:15:31 yes, so? These are facts of life 22:15:53 Yes they are. But in this case they don't "feel" right. So I can't help being curious about *why*. 22:16:35 You pick the tidiest, "natural" feel - or the most durable, idiot-proof. 22:16:47 I can buy an FPGA with 200,000 gates for under $10. I can buy a 40 million instruction per second DSP processor for under $5. But that plastic knob I just posted the link for costs over $7. Go figure. 22:16:51 It makes *no sense*. 22:17:10 If it made sense I wouldn't have agitated over it all afternoon. 22:18:26 All those things I just listed I just need one or two of. But a couple of the applications I'm targeting might need a couple of dozen knobs. 22:18:36 So first thing I know 75% of my product cost will be *KNOBS*. 22:19:13 eliminate knobs. 22:21:59 Exactly - see above: "try to devise an entirely different control strategy." 22:22:06 Yep 22:22:21 My only concern there is that the market will say "that's too different - not interested." 22:22:31 Of course, they might say "fantastic idea - we love it. 22:22:33 " 22:22:45 Yer trying to match existing facilities to a new menu - rather than designing the kitchen to support the new menu ;-) 22:22:46 I just don't know yet. 22:23:22 No - it's the same menu. So can I design a new kitchen simply to *lower costs* and still expect the market to accept it? 22:23:43 I'm targeting a very well-defined existing market that already has products out there serving it. 22:24:21 Then you need to be either better, more durable or more "slick" - while still doing a better job.. Fun. 22:25:01 Yes, I agree. If my reason for offering them a new control strategy is that *it works better and makes more sense* then I'll win. If it's just to cut cost and make me more money then I won't. 22:26:01 Cutting cost and saving them money might work, and that might pay off in market share. 22:26:38 only if they see "cheaper" in replacement or feel unhappy with a firm. 22:28:18 I guess so. We'll see. I just couldn't believe that 0.1 ounce of plastic could cost $7. How amazing. 22:28:41 in quantity they are less, and shipping has gone ape. 22:28:57 I think that the problem must be a severe lack of standardization. If you could just buy a 0.5" knob the way you can by a 10k ohm resistor, then we'd be where we need to be. 22:29:26 standardized fine - everyone uses a different std. 22:29:49 Well, a little less. See that link. 1,000 of them are still $3.34 each. That's still a ridiculous price. 22:30:03 That's not standardized. 22:30:10 At least not the way 10k resistors are. 22:30:34 Find another style, suplier, and of course it's standardized. They ain't made by hand by pakistani tin-tinkers. 22:31:26 That's the point. I don't insist on *that* knob. I've called all over the place today, and I don't find anything in the sub $1 range. I expected these thing to cost a dime in quantities of 1,000, or something like that. 22:32:25 I expected to be able to have a couple of dozen of these on my some of my control panels, for just a few bucks. 22:33:26 I *certainly* expected that the potentiometer that the knob turned would cost more than the knob, but that's not the case. I can get the pot for $0.45 each. 22:34:10 My team lost the game tonight, by the way. :-( We lost our starting quarterback in the first two minutes, and the backup is a freshman. 22:34:40 He looked really shaky at first, but he did "come on" later. Probably bodes very well for the next few years, but we couldn't hold Bama off. 22:36:00 Regarding these knobs, I think that the difference between the knob vs. the pot that it turns or the microprocessor under the hood or the FPGA under the hood is that you can *see* the knob. Somehow that's keeping knobs from being commoditized the same way as the internal components. 22:36:00 http://www.alliedelec.com/search/searchresults.aspx?N=0&Ntk=Primary&Ntt=knobs 22:36:10 It's not just about function - it's about aesthetics. 22:36:45 Hang on - looking. 22:38:21 Ok. Well, there's that one with a picture for $0.88. But it's painted in a way that won't work for me. Those numbers on it don't relate to my application at all. 22:38:53 Notice how the more generic ones elsewhere on the page are many dollars each. 22:40:21 change the tech. Solid-state. touch-sensitivity, optic. 22:41:22 I've tried to call Synaptics to ask about "touch buttons", but I can't get anyont to talk to me. And they talk all about how great their technology is on their website, but the list no standard products that you can "add to your cart" and have shipped to you nor any prices. 22:41:28 Again, it's like it's a bit secret. 22:41:33 big 22:42:11 meh.. I used to stock catalogs and freq. the various supply-houses. 22:42:31 Anyway, I need to get to sleep. I've had all the same thoughts you're suggesting - I actually think we're a lot alike in some ways. I try to be very "cut throat practical." But so far I haven't turned over the right rock. I will keep trying. 22:42:45 laters 22:43:05 Sorry to be so off topic. Guess I needed to vent, especially since the ball game didn't break my way. 22:43:10 Sleep well. 22:43:25 and thee 22:46:35 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 22:55:03 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:55:15 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 23:03:23 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:03:44 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 23:06:54 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:07:14 --- join: madwork (n=madgarde@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 23:14:17 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:14:45 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 23:23:33 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:23:45 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 23:32:57 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:33:15 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 23:40:30 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:40:46 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 23:47:35 --- quit: PoppaVic (Client Quit) 23:48:20 --- join: qFox (n=C00K13S@5356B263.cable.casema.nl) joined #forth 23:57:22 --- quit: JFLF ("Leaving") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/10.01.07