00:00:00 --- log: started forth/09.12.21 00:00:51 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:01:07 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 00:03:29 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:34:15 Can anyone help me please? I'm getting errors when trying to make Gforth-0.7.0 http://forth.pastebin.ca/1722235 00:37:14 No idea.. I saw warnings, not real errors in the build - just test failures for some reason. 00:43:42 Hmm:( 00:44:06 I don't know if i should try to install it... 00:44:17 xpololz: for starters, I never build shit AS root.. Ever.. Build as me, sudo to install as root. 00:44:42 make clean ./configure properly - again, and make again. 00:45:10 but not as root? 00:46:33 I never build as root. 00:46:46 let it install by root, and all is well 00:47:44 thanks, i will try again now :) 00:48:06 ok, make sure you clean UP as root as well - since yui got that far 00:48:16 ouch 00:48:39 already cleaned and did a ./configure 00:48:57 but 00:48:58 ./config.status: line 1002: stamp-h: Permission denied 00:49:09 now you know why I unpack and configure and build as me, but install as root ;-) 00:49:15 * PoppaVic chuckles 00:49:42 heheh, i will try to do it all from the start 00:49:55 i'm pretty new to linux tbh 00:52:03 configure and make successfull 00:52:07 with some warnings tho 00:56:27 seems like the installation was kinda successful too, got some "Error (ignored)" 00:59:34 Poppavic: Thanks for help!! 00:59:42 sure 01:24:00 --- quit: PoppaVic (Client Quit) 01:31:25 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 04:16:13 --- join: qFox (n=C00K13S@5356B263.cable.casema.nl) joined #forth 04:49:15 --- join: Quartus` (n=Quartus`@74.198.8.98) joined #forth 05:06:00 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:06:36 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 06:26:09 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:26:35 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 06:45:18 --- quit: madgarden (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 06:45:18 --- quit: nighty_ (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 06:45:18 --- quit: mathrick (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 06:45:18 --- quit: TreyB (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 06:47:37 --- quit: xjrn (Success) 06:48:32 --- join: xjrn (n=jim@astound-69-42-10-25.ca.astound.net) joined #forth 06:49:45 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@CPE001d7e527f89-CM00159a65a870.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 06:49:45 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 06:49:45 --- join: mathrick (n=mathrick@83.1.168.198) joined #forth 06:49:45 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@adsl-76-254-113-201.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 08:13:26 --- quit: Judofyr (Remote closed the connection) 08:27:01 --- join: GeDaMo (n=gedamo@dyn-62-56-89-110.dslaccess.co.uk) joined #forth 08:31:26 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pops@adsl-99-88-81-255.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 08:35:56 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus`@74.198.8.101) joined #forth 08:52:02 --- quit: Quartus` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:59:10 --- join: Judofyr (n=Judofyr@cC694BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) joined #forth 09:24:15 --- quit: Judofyr ("raise Hand, 'wave'") 10:45:42 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:46:07 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 10:51:21 --- nick: madwork_ -> madwork 11:44:41 --- join: pgas (n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/pgas) joined #forth 11:45:43 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:46:07 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 12:15:14 --- quit: nighty__ (Excess Flood) 12:15:35 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@tin51-1-82-226-147-104.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 12:42:02 --- quit: xpololz (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:42:35 --- join: xpololz (n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 12:52:46 --- join: dandersen (n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen) joined #forth 13:15:25 --- quit: TreyB ("leaving") 13:15:32 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@adsl-76-254-113-201.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 13:25:01 --- join: GoNoGo (n=GoNoGo@cro34-3-82-236-93-215.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 13:36:35 --- quit: qFox ("Time for cookies!") 13:39:00 --- quit: pgas ("/quit") 13:57:58 --- join: Maki (n=Maki@dynamic-109-121-73-52.adsl.eunet.rs) joined #forth 14:13:53 --- quit: xpololz (Client Quit) 14:15:41 --- join: zzo38 (n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com) joined #forth 14:15:55 In how many Forth systems are the WHILE and IF command interchangeable? 14:23:13 zzo38: 12 14:23:28 schme: Which ones? 14:23:38 And in which ones are WHILE and IF commands *not* interchangeable? 14:23:41 zzo38: I have not a single clue. 14:23:55 I'd guess in most? 14:24:01 * PoppaVic sighs 14:25:13 --- part: zzo38 left #forth 14:25:19 zzo38: You are aware that there are a fuckton of forths and making a complete list like that would be a bit.. odd ? 14:26:04 not to mention all of them are predicated on [un]conditional branches - period. 14:26:54 where "them" is your flow-control operations, sorry. 14:28:10 Mine's not going to be. I've got an entirely different concept in mind right now. Logically it's the same, but implementation wise it's different. 14:28:24 What is different about it? 14:30:20 Give me a few more days to cook it. I have next week off - I haven't had a chance to firm up certain parts of it. You guys are a tough audience; I want to get it right. 14:30:39 Eheheh. 14:31:49 --- quit: GoNoGo (Client Quit) 14:32:33 It uses a different "kind" of cache. The "different" parts are scattered about across the hardware and the software. 14:33:37 The software manages the cache in a more overt fashion that you see in typical processors. 14:33:51 woah. I just found a wanted ad for 2 cobol programmers. 14:33:54 2009! 14:34:06 KipIngram: sounds like fun (: 14:34:30 So far. Hopefully it won't all fall apart when I try to firm it up. 14:35:50 KipIngram: like the SPUs on a Cell? 14:36:34 I don't know about those. 14:37:22 The Cell processor has vector units (SPUs) which explicitly move data from main memory to their own private memory 14:37:59 No - I'm talking about control flow and the instruction cache, not the data cache. 14:38:19 Ah 14:38:24 Stay tuned. This channel right here will be the first place I talk about it publically. 14:40:19 * schme quickly files a petent for "different kind of cache". 14:40:28 patent even 14:42:48 ;-) 14:43:36 Geez. Publicly. 14:43:43 I knew that looked awful. 15:02:51 --- quit: GeDaMo ("Leaving.") 15:08:25 --- quit: Maki ("Leaving") 15:38:02 --- quit: mathrick (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:39:59 --- join: mathrick (n=mathrick@83.1.168.198) joined #forth 15:58:41 --- join: tathi (n=josh@dsl-216-227-91-166.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 16:24:26 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:26:27 --- join: ASau (n=user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth 16:45:00 --- quit: garfield__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:45:37 --- join: garfield__ (n=uwekloss@p54867ADC.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 16:49:39 --- quit: mathrick (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 17:05:00 --- quit: ASau (Remote closed the connection) 17:08:19 --- join: mathrick (n=mathrick@83.1.168.198) joined #forth 17:14:23 --- join: ASau (n=user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth 17:24:51 --- join: JFLF (n=JF@150.203.5.213) joined #forth 17:25:34 Hi JFLF 17:26:33 Hi tathi 17:29:08 Forth much? 17:29:24 Getting into it really. 17:29:41 Ah. Coming from where? 17:29:48 I've been reading about it for quite a while, now's time to do something with it. 17:29:56 Many places, currently Australia. 17:30:20 And CS-wise, coming from HPC C. :) 17:30:24 I was thinking other programming languages, but I guess that works too. :) 17:30:37 I'm tired, my bad. :) 17:31:11 Fair enough. 18:01:09 --- join: alex4nder (n=user@dsl093-145-168.sba1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #forth 18:01:14 hey 18:01:37 how goes it? 18:02:09 good 18:02:13 how're you? 18:02:25 I'm ok 18:02:55 what're you hacking on? 18:03:17 Just messing about with Forth -- writing a little word game. 18:03:23 cool 18:03:30 Hexagonal grids are a pain. :) 18:03:46 haha 18:05:13 You hacking on anything? 18:06:50 yah.. I've got a network framework I'm trying to tilt up. 18:08:10 it's kind of like twisted python's line-based network classes.. so it'll be good for most protocols (SMTP, IRC, IMAP) 18:11:00 --- quit: xjrn (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:18:04 Ah, right. 18:36:31 --- join: xjrn (n=jim@astound-69-42-10-25.ca.astound.net) joined #forth 18:37:44 I think I've understood where the bug sits in pForth and FICL. 18:38:14 That's the CATCH/THROW problem? 18:38:34 Yes. 18:40:02 OK 18:42:08 Where do you think it is? 18:43:00 Or is it too complicated to explain? 18:43:05 Checking it now. 18:43:37 Ah. 18:44:05 I think that post-CATCH processing is done in INTERPRET or EVALUATE instead of QUIT. 18:45:45 Huh. 18:47:24 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:50:21 Yes, that's the problem. 18:52:55 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@zeppelin.proteus-tech.com) joined #forth 18:55:41 So how does that cause problems? 18:58:09 I'm thinking. 18:58:36 Maybe it is even worse, e.g. because THROW effectively does ABORT. 18:59:32 Oh, I sort of see. 18:59:38 --- quit: dandersen ("leaving") 18:59:40 That's a mess. 18:59:56 --- join: dandersen (n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen) joined #forth 19:08:05 --- quit: Zarutian () 19:15:31 The worst part of it is that I don't have _any_ working implementation: 19:15:49 a) gforth has broken marker or dictionary handling; 19:15:57 b) pfe has broken file handling; 19:16:10 c) pforth and ficl have broken exception handling. 19:16:19 Nice picture, isn't it? 19:16:25 Lovely 19:17:02 I'd go with (c) then :) 19:17:02 What's broken about pfe's file handling? I missed that. 19:17:49 It handles require/include in some peculiar way, so that it unexpectedly closes files. 19:18:16 The very file I damn am working with! 19:19:08 Huh. So not just the ANS-specified behavior of INCLUDED closing the file when it finishes interpreting it? 19:19:24 Exactly. 19:19:37 trijezdci: it is hard to tell which one is the least evil. 19:20:02 Any of them effectively prevents usage for me. 19:20:08 When do you see it then? If an error occurs while it is interpreting? Or...? 19:20:36 for me exception handling is always the least needed feature 19:20:42 no matter what 19:20:56 From which I conclude that you don't write complex programs. 19:21:02 no 19:21:28 Exception handling is one of the most useful parts in Forth. 19:21:58 exceptions have the undesirable consequence that they always incur cost even in the general case when no exception is raised 19:22:15 I generally do not embrace that kind of thing 19:22:23 If not unportable setjmp/longjmp, C would be much better than Forth. 19:22:34 in my book, good design is where cost is only incurred in the special case, not the general case 19:23:06 From that I conclude that you neither don't write RT software nor understand its requirements. 19:23:22 I do write real-time telephony servers 19:23:39 and they work nicely without exception handling 19:23:55 Bad servers, if you design them using only general case. 19:24:09 you misinterpret what I said 19:26:18 It is silly to talk about undesirable consequences of exceptions 19:26:18 when requirements on behaviour are rigid in respect to _all_ cases 19:26:18 not only the general ones. 19:29:13 I do not wish to incur the cost of exception handling in the case where no exception is raised 19:29:36 Then you're writing bad telephone services. 19:29:40 I would be happy to pay for it in the case when an exception is raised but not otherwise 19:29:48 you are prejudiced 19:30:59 You allow broken or stuck communications for a longer time. 19:31:08 no I don't 19:31:14 More likely until watchdog resets everything. 19:31:27 you have been taught and got used to one single design pattern which you think is universal 19:31:44 but there are always multiple ways to skin a cat 19:32:11 so you shouldn't be judging other people's approaches by your own preferences 19:33:22 How do you restore operation in exceptional case? 19:33:48 Reset everything and go on? 19:34:08 I don't use exceptions 19:34:26 What do you use then? 19:34:37 Explicit flag passing? 19:34:49 depends on the scenario 19:34:56 Or you simply abort everything and wait till watchdog does it all for you. 19:38:34 Although crude, sometimes it can be both the simplest and the most straightforward option... 19:39:17 "Sometimes" is not always. 19:39:41 * trijezdci is reminded of the saying "if all you got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" 19:39:56 ASau, indeed. :) 19:41:26 --- join: gogonkt_ (n=info@59.39.13.155) joined #forth 19:41:39 JFLF: that's the problem with hand-written solutions where exceptions fit well. 19:53:25 --- quit: gogonkt (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:14:02 how do you think exceptions produce overhead? 20:23:19 woot, we have network I/O with an IRC server 21:04:59 ASau how does one do exception handling with forth? 21:37:34 haha 21:38:05 I used counted strings.. but this protocol demands 512-byte minimum buffers. 21:38:37 alex4nder: irc? 512 max 21:39:15 so, you want pstrings ala' usual, and you can add something else.. like istrings or zstrings. 21:39:17 one man's min is another's max.. 21:39:46 if your protocol can send 512 bytes in a 'line', that's the minimum your buffer should really be 21:40:00 (assuming you're not executing a 'line' incrementally) 21:41:08 that's what you know can't be exceeded. if you want two sequencial 255+ reads, so be it. 21:41:15 same for writes 21:42:00 yup. 21:43:26 but this API calls for lines to be handed off inside a line buffer.. so for this protocol, that buffer needs to be able to handle the maximum message length, at minimum. 21:43:45 since these protocols are all line-based, I don't want to push line-reassembly up the protocol stack 21:43:47 create irc 0 , 512 allot 21:44:14 haha, this isn't my first BBQ. I just missed IRC's large line length. :D 21:44:51 well, it ain't "large", and it's actually a block - not really a line except for the terminator. OK. 21:45:14 Easier to think of it as a wordwrapped paragraph ;-) 21:45:45 I'm just using the RFC's terminology.. they call it a line, I call it a line. 21:46:28 s'ok.. IRC rfc's are a horrendous mess. 21:47:48 actually.. hehe.. You could be using the block-buffer interface for it ;-< 21:55:07 proteusguy -- see CATCH/THROW 21:58:52 CATCH/THROW are part of standard forth? 22:03:01 --- join: alex4nderForth (n=alex4nde@dsl093-145-168.sba1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #forth 22:03:14 Well.. 22:03:26 I guess that works. 22:04:18 : freenode s" irc.freenode.net" irc-client ; 22:04:53 --- quit: alex4nderForth (Client Quit) 22:33:09 --- join: TR2N (i=email@89.180.186.208) joined #forth 23:01:07 --- quit: alex4nder (Remote closed the connection) 23:02:09 --- quit: segher ("This computer has gone to sleep") 23:02:18 --- quit: PoppaVic (Client Quit) 23:03:44 --- part: JFLF left #forth 23:09:51 --- quit: dandersen (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 23:45:58 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:46:37 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@zeppelin.proteus-tech.com) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/09.12.21