00:00:00 --- log: started forth/09.12.02 00:21:28 --- quit: PoppaVic (Client Quit) 01:15:03 --- join: GeDaMo (n=gedamo@dyn-62-56-89-110.dslaccess.co.uk) joined #forth 01:39:16 --- quit: dinya_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:47:22 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 01:47:43 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote closed the connection) 01:49:06 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-222-240.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 01:53:20 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 02:08:25 --- quit: DrunkTomato () 02:46:58 --- join: DrunkTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 02:50:30 --- join: dinya_ (n=Denis@188.17.75.20) joined #forth 03:10:07 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-205-231.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 03:14:01 g'day #forth 03:15:09 g'day schmx :) 03:21:10 Hello GeDaMo ! Long time no hello! 03:21:16 :P 03:21:30 * schmx needs to make some "g'day #whateverchannel" quick command for irssi it seems. 03:27:51 --- quit: Snoopy_1711 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:57:57 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-203-010.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 04:02:43 --- quit: maht (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 04:02:48 --- join: maht (n=maht__@85.189.31.174.proweb.managedbroadband.co.uk) joined #forth 04:16:25 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:23:33 --- quit: GeDaMo ("Leaving.") 05:20:01 --- join: proteusguy_ (n=proteusg@zeppelin.proteus-tech.com) joined #forth 05:28:28 --- quit: proteusguy__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:45:38 Morning everyone. 06:00:09 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pops@99.150.133.146) joined #forth 06:03:36 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 06:10:55 --- join: InvisibleTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 06:32:11 --- quit: DrunkTomato (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:40:47 --- quit: mathrick (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 06:49:08 --- join: mathrick (n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk) joined #forth 06:55:35 --- join: dinya (i=Denis@94.180.85.17) joined #forth 07:45:47 --- quit: nighty^ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:03:41 --- quit: Quartus` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:33:44 --- join: qFox (n=C00K13S@5356B263.cable.casema.nl) joined #forth 08:35:35 --- join: GeDaMo (n=gedamo@dyn-62-56-89-110.dslaccess.co.uk) joined #forth 09:45:26 --- join: ASau` (n=user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth 10:01:32 --- join: Quartus` (n=Quartus`@74.198.8.57) joined #forth 10:37:48 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus`@74.198.8.58) joined #forth 11:06:08 --- quit: Quartus` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:10:51 Hmmm. My pforth installation echos commands. So if I type 1 2 3 . . . and hit it goes to the next line and responds with 1 2 3 . . . 3 2 1 ok 11:11:15 Can that be turned off without niggling with the code too much? I'd prefer that it just type 3 2 1 ok right after the 1 2 3 . . . that I typed. 11:11:39 I'd also prefer that it not show me the stack dump every time. In other words, I'd prefer that it behave in a "traditional" fashion. :-) 11:14:20 Hmmm. This has something to do with the fact that the C libraries pforth uses echo the before giving pforth a chance, right? By the time it gets an opportunity to do anything we're already on the next line? 11:14:36 So it echos the input so that line will look as traditional as possible? 11:16:31 hmm. 11:16:43 I can't recall the last time I used pforth 11:17:05 Begin AUTO.INIT ------ 11:17:05 1 2 3 rot . 11:17:05 1 ok 11:17:05 Stack<10> 2 3 11:17:15 Yeah, I'd love to turn that off. 11:17:38 the auto init stuff is non-issue.. I TYPED the first line. 11:17:57 maybe you mean the stack-thing.. 11:18:32 I'd wager on a deferred call or a build-opt or a comline opt. 11:19:56 I meant the stack thing. 11:20:03 yah 11:20:14 I think I'm stuck with the newline issue, but I can probably turn off the stack print. 11:20:16 I suspect it can get irksome - fast 11:20:33 I remember when I used pforth for a client I hacked all of that to get it the way I wanted it. 11:20:48 I dunno if pforth has 'see' and whatnot - it'll be something obtuse, I'm sure 11:34:47 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote closed the connection) 11:38:30 --- join: Maki (n=Maki@dynamic-78-30-155-247.adsl.eunet.rs) joined #forth 11:39:33 --- nick: Snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy_1611 11:44:00 Ah. 0 trace-stack ! 11:44:07 stack dump gone. 11:44:16 I still get the newline and input echo, though. 11:44:37 hmm, my install doesnt' 11:44:58 well, other than what I type - interactive 11:45:43 You mean it echos the characters as you type them, but doesn't then reprint the entire input line after you hit ? 11:45:56 right - std sh mode 11:46:42 So if you type 1 2 . . does it print 2 1 ok on the same line as your input? And then moves the cursor to the next line awaiting your next command? 11:47:16 trace-stack should be 0 by default. 11:47:41 if I type: "1 2 .\n" - I see "1 2 ." then it prints "2 ok" and I get a new line 11:48:33 hah.. clean closthes and hankerchief - just in time: after a bowl of chili freeing the sinuses ;-) 11:48:59 :-( That's what I want mine to do. But I get this: 11:49:13 1 2 . . <----------------- I type this 11:49:30 1 2 . . 2 1 ok <----------------- pforth puts this on the next line 11:49:50 Then I get another newline with a blinking cursor. Nothing appears on the line I type on except the stuff I type. 11:49:56 hmm? it's tracing some sorta' whackiness. 11:50:24 1 2 . . 11:50:25 2 1 ok 11:50:25 Stack<10> 11:50:25 11:51:38 see OK 11:53:42 I'm digging into the source code now. 11:53:49 heh 11:54:23 Is there some kind of startup script in pforth? 11:54:37 loads it's "dict", got me. 11:58:55 Well, I found the line in pf_core.c that defaults stack tracing on. Fixed that, so as soon as I recompile that should be gone. 11:59:09 Still looking for the weird command echo stuff. 11:59:16 seems it should be a CLI opt 12:12:42 Oh, that's weird. I restarted pforth (crashed it, actually, and then restarted it), and it stopped doing that echo. 12:12:56 hehehe 12:13:20 Std. Procedure for forths: restart ;-) 12:13:23 I didn't do a darn thing. I hate stuff like that. 12:16:05 Fine. Whatever. Rebuilt it and the stack trace did go away. At least that part was well-behaved. 12:26:28 Ok, here's a theory. 12:26:58 You know how when you install packages from the command line you usually see a progress bar "march across" the line, or a percentage indicator go up? 12:27:20 Once in a while that seems to get broken, and the line gets reprinted and the screen scrolls on every update. 12:27:43 Almost like something gets out of whack in the VT100 control code behavior of the console window. Like the cursor controls get broken. 12:28:03 Maybe that reprint behavior is somehow built into the VT100 emulation. 12:28:25 Because all I did when it suddenly started to behave right was restart the app. From the same disk image. 12:28:59 And it occurs to me that the behavior I saw at first was just like that that I've seen during package installation: instead of adding to / modifying the end of the line it prints it all over. 12:29:26 And, in fact, I had been tinkering with VT100 control codes earlier. 12:33:55 ahhh 12:34:07 ok.. sorry, was trying to fake brownies.. Back ;-) 12:35:38 KipIngram: the reprint is \r - can also happen with a "stuck statusline" 12:37:02 damn.. *sigh* I forgot to add a touch of vanilla.. damndamn 12:37:28 Oh, well.. It's an X project - we'll see ;-) 12:38:45 (luckily, Iv'e the resources for pass #2 ;-) 12:40:03 : brownies ; FORGET brownies : brownies vanilla ; 12:40:41 KipIngram: yeah. I tossed it together with leftovers in 5 directions. if it *almost* works, I'll write it out and mod. 12:40:43 lol 12:41:19 I440r: I tend to drive "programmers" nuts - if they can't cook, they can't code ;-) 12:41:38 I like cooking. 12:41:49 I just don't like to *have* to cook. Like doing it when I want to. 12:41:51 :-) 12:42:06 KipIngram: yeah, I'd like to return to paying bills, cooking.. I just can't flog about like I could 20 years ago. 12:44:34 I've always paid the bills (i.e., written the checks, stuffed the envelopes, etc.) If my wife did it the bills would get paid but beyond that we'd have no clue how were were doing. I probably go too far the other way - I even have a spreadsheet with an entry for every check I expect to write out through next August or so. Of course I didn't think of everything, but it's a better forecast than having 12:44:36 no idea at all. 12:45:29 So when the notion of going on a vacation or buying some furniture or something comes up I actually have a fairly good ideas as to whether we can afford it. 12:45:56 I did fine before the wife - I'll do better when the divorce is over. And, I hate banks.. I may switch to money-orders for everything. 12:46:13 Divorces suck. 12:46:42 KipIngram: the waiting is the chore - the courts are more gefuckt than the idiot soviets were 12:47:01 Yep - I know. 12:47:50 KipIngram: the latest in MI: the court-clerks send you to a /bookstore/ to buy a book which has "the forms" - bye-bye: read the book, or hire a lawyer. 12:48:09 AMazing way to run a "court system" 12:48:16 Hey, more on the logs. Somebody typed a command at me that was supposed to be how you access clog. I didn't get it to work. What do I actually do? 12:48:30 clog? 12:48:44 oh, you mean channel logs? Never use them, myself 12:48:54 Well, everything about how we deal with the government is too complicated. Back to what we were saying the other day - things should be simple and easy to understand. 12:49:22 But I believe you pointed out that then we could hold the gov more accountable, hence the reason things aren't simple, etc. etc. 12:49:28 Yes, channel logs. 12:49:31 yah. KISS is too easy - my god, think of all the gov-employee's that'd need to get A Real Job ;-) 12:49:48 Heard about the FairTax movement? 12:50:08 There has been assorted moves, including Flat-tax for decades 12:50:10 They want to replace the income tax with a national sales tax. Abolish the IRS, simpligy the #?!# out of everything, etc. 12:50:15 never goes anywhere 12:50:41 No, the IRS doesn't want to get itself abolished. Think of the big shots running it who would lose their power. 12:50:46 We could outsource government ;-P 12:51:08 think of all the semi-accountants and clerks! ;-) 12:59:45 Oh, I see. /whois clog shows you a url; the logs are at that website. 13:00:12 at 13:00:16 ah, two 13:01:00 clog talks too much 13:01:19 clog talks?? 13:01:31 no lol 13:01:40 Oh - you got me. 13:01:41 :-) 13:08:56 KipIngram: I think that it's your tty that echoes commands. 13:09:16 KipIngram: not tty, shell rather. 13:12:24 I do think it's something other than pforth. Not sure what exactly, but I do know that segfaulting pforth and then restarting it (in the same terminal session) fixed it. 13:12:39 termios 13:13:04 (termcap) 13:13:04 KipIngram: man stty? 13:13:06 isforth has a nice terminfo parser 13:13:34 I440r: heh.. there is very little nice about termios/termcap ;-) 13:13:52 PoppaVic: pforth doesn't link against libtermcap. 13:14:02 terminfos if/else/then construct is very forth like 13:14:20 ASau`: doesn't matter to me - it's still going to deal with it - one way or another 13:15:22 PoppaVic: not, if you reuse standard code rather than rolling your own. 13:16:40 Supposedly pforth does only "one character in" and "one character out", and builds everything else up internally. For portability. 13:17:29 KipIngram: exciting, no? ;-P 13:18:09 If I type key . and then hit it prints the 10 on the same line, so it *does not* echo the prior to processing the string. 13:20:17 Wait, I mean if I type key . and hit *twice*. The first one terminates the command entry. The second one gets picked up by key. But neither is echoed prior to the 10 getting printed. The second one, of course, isn't "echoed" at all. 13:21:11 Is the "reprint the line" behavior the software's way of dealing with dumb terminals that do their own echoing? 13:22:36 no idea. Mine works properly. 13:22:42 Mine too now. 13:22:51 I'm just speculating on what was going on before. 13:23:17 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 13:23:29 Were you running some other command line program before it? 13:25:04 KipIngram: once you snarfle a termwin - with escapes - you are often further ahead opening a new termwin and killing the old - strange and weird things can be "set" with the escapes. 13:25:09 No, but as I mentioned this was one of several "screen" instances. And I was playing with VT100 control codes within pforth earlier. 13:25:31 Exactly - that's my theory. 13:25:51 I farkled it up, and just didn't realize that the echoing behavior hadn't been around all along. 13:27:17 But pforth must do some sort of initialization, because I didn't open a new termwin - I just crashed pforth and restarted it. So the restart somehow cleared out the problem. 13:28:03 or whatever did the load/exec did 13:29:34 Good point, and I like that better than pforth doing it anyway. 13:31:09 well, it's the way everything operates ;-) 13:32:04 I know, but I just meant that pforth is supposed to be so cleanly portable and all - it shouldn't be assuming the presence of such functionality. Just use key and emit and never mind how they work. 13:32:49 KipIngram: well, I'm concluding that folks are being silly, igorning the ecma/vt* escapes.. Almost anything worth a damn has them 13:33:48 one day, experimenting, I discovered that leopard's termwin not only had tabs, but understood the ecma-escapes, rather than ANSI/vt1/200 13:39:35 Problem is in the word "almost". 13:42:29 ASau`: no.. That is not The Problem. Get real. 13:42:58 Yes. 13:43:02 I'm real. 13:43:19 There're no VT100 nor VT220 emulators. 13:43:51 All of them are "close to" but they work differently. 13:43:59 Sometimes in unexpected ways. 13:44:28 When you use standard API, you leave chances to fix your program without rebuilding. 13:44:41 When you hardcode, you don't leave any chance. 13:45:50 my biggest gripe with terminfo/termcap is that not all terminfo database files have an sgr (reset ONE attribute) but they all have sgr0 format strings 13:46:04 all terms support both of these but not all terminfo files contain the format string for sgr 13:46:16 so the ONLY reliable way of turning off bold for example on all termainals is to 13:46:26 1: turn off ALL attributes and reset fg/bg 13:46:36 2: re-establish the colors and attribs you didnt want reset 13:46:42 step 2 is VERY slow 13:46:50 --- quit: uiu__ (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:46:51 --- quit: crc (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:46:58 --- join: uiu_ (n=ian@schihei.net) joined #forth 13:47:06 --- join: tarbo (n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo) joined #forth 13:48:02 driver inconsistencies. 13:53:24 no 13:53:43 all drivers support both sgr and sgr0 but alot of terminfo files only have a format string for sgr0 13:53:58 the other way is to hard code the strings for all the terms that dont have the string 13:54:12 they may or may not be the same on all terms 13:54:22 then thers 28562984 other strings that they dont put in terminfo at all 13:54:34 * PoppaVic just smiles 14:01:21 --- join: DrunkTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 14:04:21 --- join: tathi (n=josh@dsl-216-227-91-166.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 14:07:33 --- quit: qFox ("Time for cookies!") 14:10:41 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote closed the connection) 14:20:18 --- quit: InvisibleTomato (Connection timed out) 14:24:19 --- quit: Maki ("Leaving") 14:29:44 --- join: hiredman (n=rattus@67.152.53.125) joined #forth 15:05:31 --- quit: GeDaMo ("Leaving.") 15:15:33 --- join: crc (n=charlesc@c-68-80-139-0.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 15:15:34 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 15:26:17 I just want to make it all work on my Eee PC 1101 running Jaunty. I don't really care about other platforms. If I buy a new computer I'll - you guessed it Asau - rebuild. 16:09:06 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-75-70-11-191.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:09:49 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 16:18:51 --- quit: nighty_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:41:14 --- quit: DrunkTomato () 16:42:43 --- join: segher (n=segher@84-105-60-153.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 17:29:53 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 17:47:59 --- quit: nighty__ (Remote closed the connection) 18:01:25 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 18:04:09 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@210.188.173.245) joined #forth 20:40:52 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 21:33:22 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-099-101.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 21:50:53 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:04:02 --- quit: ASau` ("off") 23:06:55 --- quit: PoppaVic (Client Quit) 23:48:24 --- join: ASau` (n=user@77.246.231.14) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/09.12.02