00:00:00 --- log: started forth/09.11.29 01:03:24 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 01:08:08 --- join: qFox (n=C00K13S@5356B263.cable.casema.nl) joined #forth 01:31:14 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote closed the connection) 01:33:01 --- join: GeDaMo (n=gedamo@212.225.98.255) joined #forth 02:06:44 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-75-70-11-191.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 03:37:48 --- quit: nighty^ (Remote closed the connection) 03:38:44 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 03:45:31 --- quit: foxes (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 03:48:03 --- join: foxLaptop (n=flash@180.78.243.125) joined #forth 03:55:33 --- quit: foxLaptop (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:01:06 --- join: DrunkTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 04:20:21 --- quit: GeDaMo ("Leaving.") 04:34:51 --- join: foxes (i=flash@221.220.166.156) joined #forth 04:47:58 --- join: flash__ (i=flash@222.131.168.60) joined #forth 04:54:18 --- quit: foxes (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:54:34 --- join: foxes (i=flash@221.220.45.105) joined #forth 05:06:51 --- quit: flash__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:19:54 --- quit: foxes (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)) 05:27:14 --- join: foxes (i=flash@221.220.46.126) joined #forth 05:47:21 --- join: dinya (i=Denis@92.255.149.91) joined #forth 06:00:39 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 06:02:23 --- quit: dinya (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:32:39 --- join: dinya (i=Denis@94.180.115.145) joined #forth 07:01:55 --- part: bogen left #forth 07:20:31 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pops@adsl-99-150-133-146.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 07:41:46 --- join: |dinya| (i=Denis@94.180.51.65) joined #forth 07:44:57 --- quit: dinya (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:31:11 --- join: GeDaMo (n=gedamo@212.225.98.255) joined #forth 08:31:44 --- quit: nighty^ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 08:31:45 --- quit: |dinya| (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:45:30 --- join: dinya (i=Denis@94.180.15.124) joined #forth 09:13:24 --- quit: I440r (Client Quit) 09:59:48 --- quit: kar8nga (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:00:31 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 10:32:13 Would anyone happen to recall whom/where has a list of words and their use-freq? compile and/or exec.. I swear I used to have such a thing. 10:33:55 Something like this? http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/appc.html 10:34:14 checking 10:34:36 http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/sec6_3.html 10:35:19 hmm, drat - I recall this one. Similar, yeah - used to be a doc for forth compiling forth, iirc. I'm basically squabbling in my mind about "order" and bytecodes. 10:36:03 crc: yeah, that's a lot closer - thanks guys. 10:36:33 I seem to remember a paper by Anton Ertl (I think) which had instruction frequencies 10:37:22 GeDaMo: yah, I've packed all my old FIG newsletters and shit, too - so.. I *know* there used to be a few docs.. damned if I can recall where the heck I saw them *sigh* 10:39:51 http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/papers/gregg+01euroforth.ps.gz 10:40:58 ahh? 10:41:19 That's the one I'm thinking of - not sure if it's the one you're thinking of :P 10:41:30 ok 11:01:50 http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/peep/ 11:31:57 GeDaMo: I suspect it's something I read in FORTH Dimensions or Dr. Dobbs - decades back.. Not that it's gonna' vary much, except by "name". And, of course, it's NS for the first build or three ;-) 11:37:41 Byte code interpreters don't use jump tables? Seems like a jump table would do away with any real effect of the choice of which byte corresponded to which operation. 11:38:42 KipIngram: it would depend, of course.. I'm trying to predicate my notes on nybbles - were tathi's stuff used 6 bits 11:43:12 KipIngram: to make it more amusing, I'm trying to think of "orthogonal instruction set" - just to muddle the waters further ;-) Still, I agree - I like vector-tables. 11:43:53 I have a core instruction set of 31 opcodes 11:44:24 crc: really? Cool. That seems small, but I've seen smaller. 11:45:07 27 if you don't count I/O and nop 11:45:21 crc: are the listed for browsing in something? I've also been doodling the "registers" 11:45:53 http://github.com/crcx/ngaro/blob/master/README 11:46:16 I/O is something that varies soooo widely, (and folks tend to forget that, when they ain't arguing ;-) 11:47:48 ahh 11:47:51 Thanks. 11:47:56 no problem 11:48:47 crc: here's the doodlings - http://codepad.org/FpUponDV ;-) 11:54:34 PoppaVic: looks interesting; thanks 11:55:31 crc: sure.. I've been looking over tathi's stuff, and old Z80 stuff, and lot's of "KISS, damnit!" ;-) 12:01:33 --- nick: Snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy_1611 12:22:12 --- quit: dinya (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:25:43 PoppaVic: Stack Extra? what for? 12:26:23 Zarutian: no idea.. Possible stackframe or exocalls, locals, not sure. Just convenient. 12:27:34 Zarutian: partially because I downright hate the screw-around with the control-stack. Best way I know to snarfle yerself. 12:29:55 I see 12:30:29 PoppaVic: heard about an esoteric instruction set called the "universal machine"? 12:30:52 Zarutian: not one in particular, no - I've heard of many such. 12:33:30 PoppaVic: this one is the one I mean http://esolangs.org/wiki/UM-32 12:34:59 loading 12:36:26 Zarutian: I'll have to read that with no external noise ;-) Cute - thanks. 12:42:06 http://www.boundvariable.org/task.shtml <- contest that sprouted this 12:46:28 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:46:30 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-105-243.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 12:48:50 --- quit: ygrek_ (Remote closed the connection) 13:33:59 Is that UM really for real? The wiki page reads almost like a "fun and games" thing. But a 14-op system that will "do it all" is pretty neat. 13:34:54 that UM is really for real 13:35:23 Neat - I'm going to have to study that. 13:36:03 for instance instruction 6 can be used to implement all the other bitwise operations 13:41:59 Zarutian: yes, it's educational - which I WISH they'd teach today. 13:42:30 I don't want to NEED to implement everything, but there is a level of "come on, when the hell will I need that?!?" 13:42:59 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-088-068-214-007.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 13:43:05 "depends on what you are doing" 13:43:23 Zarutian: That, I think, was the fun of the Z80 - learning what did what - and the tradeoff in opcode-size and clocks and when do I.. and Why do I.. 13:44:30 and, of course, a boolean-algebra class with a digital/gates lab.. Lovely thing to cover. 13:46:00 What good is teaching that today? 13:46:53 schme: rephrased: "Why teach at all." - just so, 13:47:05 ,/./ 13:47:42 PoppaVic: Huh. No. But those skills are not very useable and/or valuable in the majority of the fields of the programming industry today. 13:48:30 umm.. Ok. Whatever you say. 13:48:54 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:49:22 You gotta get with the times, mate. 13:49:49 My knapping still needs work. 13:50:11 eheheh :) 13:50:40 Is the same reason MIT dropped sicp + scheme and went with python. 13:51:07 Though EE people do the gates and whatshit. 14:02:39 Hey now, be nice. That's my stuff. 14:03:05 --- quit: kar8nga (Connection timed out) 14:04:10 No one needs a knife or drill, we got plasma-cutters. Throw the compass out, gps is here. 14:04:19 bah 14:05:02 PoppaVic: so you never used an compass to do electrical line tracing? 14:05:29 Zarutian: ssshh! hush! no clues! we need special hardware for that! 14:06:00 Zarutian: It's depressing, it really is. 14:08:27 I dunno what is depressing about people getting taught skills they actually will use in their field of work. 14:08:47 KipIngram: I am nice to EE. I have been one meself. 14:11:16 PoppaVic: Your analogy is faulty of course. If one was to work with plasma-cutters then learning to be a master of knives and drills would be pretty pointless. 14:11:48 --- quit: qFox ("Time for cookies!") 14:12:23 that response, is of course, flawed. 14:12:40 but, be well with it. 14:12:51 Then why are people trained to work in the metalworking industry not started on filing pieces of metal with hand tools? 14:13:00 Except that learning to be a master of knives would be fun. ;-) 14:13:12 KipIngram: This is why we train kali and eskrima. 14:14:32 10 years ago, I might add, they actually were started on working with handtools. 14:14:34 I keep telling people that I'm going to learn how to make swords one of these days. Ever since I saw "Highlander" (the original movie, not the TV show) I've been a sword fan. 14:16:11 Cools. Do it :) 14:18:23 Well, my only hesitation is that I tend to push on that kind of thing until I do it very well. So I'd wind up with *very sharp* swords and would probably eventually hurt myself. :-) 14:19:08 Maybe take up the fine art of iaido. 14:19:15 Not quite the same swords there as highlander. 14:22:42 I liked Connor's katana best. 14:23:19 --- quit: DrunkTomato () 14:26:32 well sleep 14:29:51 Let's see, there's iaido, kendo, and what's the other one? The one thgat starts with j? 14:32:49 Kenjustsu? Never mind about the j. 14:38:20 --- nick: Snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy_1611 14:41:24 --- quit: GeDaMo ("Leaving.") 14:57:49 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-099-082.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 15:12:20 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:19:22 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-108-182.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 16:19:33 --- quit: Snoopy_1711 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:27:27 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@210.188.173.245) joined #forth 17:01:52 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@zeppelin.proteus-tech.com) joined #forth 17:08:50 --- join: maht (n=maht__@85.189.31.174.proweb.managedbroadband.co.uk) joined #forth 17:58:10 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-112-105.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 17:58:15 --- quit: PoppaVic (Client Quit) 18:00:39 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pops@adsl-99-150-133-146.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 18:05:15 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 18:20:11 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:20:48 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@zeppelin.proteus-tech.com) joined #forth 19:27:41 --- join: DrunkTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 20:35:48 --- quit: DrunkTomato () 21:30:53 --- quit: Snoopy_1711 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:45:32 --- join: gnomon (n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 21:57:21 Curses. I just realized my irc client isn't logging. Are the logs kept online somewhere? 21:59:45 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-115-159.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 22:02:08 --- quit: KipIngram ("WeeChat 0.2.6") 22:03:36 --- join: KipIngram (n=kip@173-11-138-177-houston.txt.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 22:04:05 Ok. Logging now on. 22:04:25 I wanted to go back and look at all of those universal machine URLs, but they've scrolled away. 22:05:03 If anyone can grab that chunk of the earlier conversation and send it to me I'd appreciate it - kip.ingram@gmail.com. 22:05:35 ok.. just a sec 22:05:59 http://esolangs.org/wiki/UM-32 22:06:28 and crc's url: http://github.com/crcx/ngaro/blob/master/README 22:08:34 Thanks - you're a gentleman and a scholar. ;-) 22:09:01 well, zero outta' two ain't bad ;-) 22:59:14 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:27:58 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:28:32 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@zeppelin.proteus-tech.com) joined #forth 23:29:58 --- join: DrunkTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 23:32:53 --- quit: PoppaVic (Client Quit) 23:44:13 --- quit: segher ("This computer has gone to sleep") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/09.11.29