00:00:00 --- log: started forth/09.11.21 00:49:09 --- quit: adu () 01:06:42 --- nick: krainbolt -> krainbolt_sleep 01:07:41 --- join: GeDaMo (n=gedamo@212.225.98.255) joined #forth 01:14:56 --- quit: PoppaVic (Client Quit) 01:24:47 --- join: gogonkt_ (n=info@59.38.201.201) joined #forth 01:41:51 --- quit: gogonkt (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:49:28 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 01:50:12 --- join: pgas (n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/pgas) joined #forth 02:29:36 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote closed the connection) 02:38:41 --- quit: pgas (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:49:38 --- part: ElmerJFudd left #forth 02:52:13 --- join: tathi (n=josh@dsl-216-227-91-166.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 03:01:11 : :: :noname ; : ;; postpone ; execute ; immediate 03:02:12 And defer creates a word whose behavior can be changed: defer foo ' + is foo 1 2 foo . ' - is foo 1 2 foo . 03:03:33 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 03:18:46 --- join: DrunkTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 04:27:19 --- join: Judofyr (n=Judofyr@ti0056a380-2511.bb.online.no) joined #forth 04:35:58 --- nick: gogonkt_ -> gogonkt 04:38:34 --- quit: GeDaMo ("Leaving.") 04:51:19 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote closed the connection) 04:55:48 --- quit: Judofyr (Remote closed the connection) 05:03:23 I've got a problem block based database 05:04:19 because I made a fixed length with 200 records, when the number is bigger than that, I don't know how to do it . 05:04:45 can I just extend the block file(gforth use block file as block)? 05:15:40 --- join: Judofyr (n=Judofyr@ti0056a380-2511.bb.online.no) joined #forth 05:22:03 --- quit: ben_m ("zzzz") 06:04:08 --- join: TR2N` (i=email@89-180-197-189.net.novis.pt) joined #forth 06:08:49 --- quit: TR2N (Nick collision from services.) 06:08:53 --- nick: TR2N` -> TR2N 06:10:27 foxes: gforth extends it automatically. 06:10:48 foxes: don't forget that gforth follows Unix file operation semantics. 06:20:06 ASau, :) thank you . 06:20:22 but what's the Unix file operation semantics? 06:22:33 Read about sparse files. 06:23:50 ok, i will read it . 06:34:50 --- quit: qFox (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:40:47 --- join: Quartus` (n=Quartus`@74.198.8.60) joined #forth 07:06:07 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 07:17:55 --- join: joe_____ (n=joe@c-24-2-234-252.hsd1.ct.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:31:08 --- quit: Judofyr (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:39:42 --- join: GeDaMo (n=gedamo@212.225.98.255) joined #forth 07:41:36 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote closed the connection) 07:43:45 * madgarden is back (gone 10:42:05) 07:51:13 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 07:51:59 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x708D5A0C) joined #forth 08:07:30 --- quit: kleinjt (Remote closed the connection) 08:16:23 --- join: dinya (i=Denis@94.180.70.92) joined #forth 08:22:16 --- join: segher (n=segher@84-105-60-153.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 08:51:29 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pops@99.150.139.232) joined #forth 09:06:02 Morning, PoppaVic. 09:06:37 hi KipIngram 09:08:28 Frustration. A few weeks ago I switched from network-manager to wicd to manage my network connection, because nm had been hanging up on me. Ever since my network time protocol stuff won't keep my clock spot on without some occasional TLC. Can't win. 09:09:11 really? hmm.. I've been comfortable with the "new" dsl of late. 09:09:26 DSL as in d*** small linux? 09:10:36 KipIngram: oh, no.. We finally got DSL into the farm. Now every automated collection-service, congresscritter-spammer and whatnot can call, and I can stay online ;-) 09:10:55 Ah - there. I applied the TLC a few minutes ago and my clock just jumped to the right time. For now. 09:11:08 Oh, good. You mean you were using dial-up before? 09:11:36 sure - for about 30 years ;-) 09:12:26 Well, welcome to the modern age. I remember when I went from dial-up to dsl; within a day or two there would have been no going back. The speed was great, but the real hook is that it's *always on*. Suddenly the internet was just like an appliance, waiting to serve me at a second's notice. 09:12:30 Still costs more than 3x what it's worth, of course 09:12:55 I have Comcast commercial grade service. The residential service sucked on the reliability front, and I like to access my home box from other locations via ssh. 09:13:04 well, I still walk away and set SLEEP usually.. Unless I've some moronic forever-dl from apple in progress ;-) 09:13:16 I could always get it to come back on, but I had to tinker with the boxes, and I couldn't do that remotely, so it was down until I got home. 09:13:29 heh 09:13:38 I've had the commercial grade service for over a year, though, and it has not so much as blinked. Not once. 09:14:19 I have the box and the cable modem on a big battery-backed supply, and it's all ridden through several <1hr outages just fine. 09:14:28 well, mine has, and continues to also work, so - what the hell. I can cope. it beats the ISP doing a 3-hr sweep on their idiot modem banks 09:14:50 It was really cool one day to talk to my wife on the phone and have her tell me the power had been off for 20 minutes, meanwhile my ssh tunnel was ticking right on. 09:15:10 My dsl was pretty reliable too, I think. 09:15:14 It's been a few years. 09:15:21 cool 09:15:42 well, I suspect my needs are trivial. I'll never own other than a lappy again, either 09:15:54 I'm taking vacation M/T/W, so I have the whole week off. :-) 09:16:30 Feeling pretty relaxedt this morning. Reading up on hold 'em strategy. 09:16:49 heh 09:18:17 Hold 'Em Strategy: Red Green Commentary on Ducttape + Hannibal Lecture Storage & Prep Advice? ;-) 09:18:32 (lector) 09:18:43 Yeah, I got that but assumed it was a pun. 09:18:50 It's a good pun. 09:19:11 KipIngram: I find some typo's do a FINE job of punning - and I catch it a few beats later ;-) 09:19:34 I had a wild one the other day - I had to read what I sent to a channel about 4 times ;-) 09:21:26 I've never done "poker night," but I'm thinking about looking for a good private game somewhere around. Legal in Texas as long as it's a private game. 09:21:45 I've also typo'd some pretty nice puns over the years. It is a lot of fun how that can happen. 09:21:57 meh.. Only cards I'd play are euchre, maybe bridge. 09:22:02 But even when you're talking to someone the best puns are the ones you don't catch until after you've said them. 09:22:11 right, exactly. 09:22:23 And, "engrish" works sooo well for that. 09:22:32 Two of my daughters are getting big enough for bridge. I've thought a couple of times they, my wife, and I should play once a week or something like that. 09:22:47 We could probably keep them interested for at least a few years; then they'll be bored and want to go out with friends. 09:23:08 KipIngram: if they play euchre, they'll be more fun, of course ;-) 09:23:26 I've never played eucre. 09:23:35 What other game is it like? Is it a kind of rummy game? 09:23:39 stump-jumper semi-bridge 09:23:50 half a deck, fast hands. 09:23:54 Oh, got it. 09:23:58 9's and up 09:24:14 No real bidding - pass or "pick it up". 09:24:37 Then yer partner gets to shake his head and say "You did it, dude!" 09:24:40 I tend to play hold 'em really tight. Probably only ten or so deals that I don't fold on immediately. 09:25:11 Never played poker in my entire life - I knew better to "play for fun" with barracks, too ;-) 09:25:26 [than] to 09:26:25 :-) Freshman year in college I was on a 20-meal a week plan in the dorm. No Sunday dinner. Saturday night I'd play with other guys in the dorm. Nickles and dimes. Usually managed to win enough for a Domino's pizza for Sunday dinner. 09:26:31 That was before hold'em, though. 09:26:38 Or at least before it was the rage. 09:27:04 Yeah, Ma' told stories of college and bridge for pennies the same way 09:27:41 Those were the days, really. School wasn't that much of a problem, everything was taken care of, and the rest was about seeing how much fun I could have. Absolutely no responsibilities. 09:28:03 I adore my kids and all that, but man, there's a lot to think about and take care of these days. 09:28:04 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 09:28:12 I blew the scholarship to ashes, discovered sex, and had that and work. 09:28:29 yes, and it's getting harder and harder to "take care" 09:28:29 Yeah, discovering sex came somewhere in there for me too. 09:29:15 The University of Texas at Austin campus is a pretty cool place to make that discovery... 09:29:32 I still think they otter grab everyone after HS for an immediate 2yr hitch in the service.. It makes you suddenly aware of a lot more than you ever, ever wanted to know. 09:30:37 I know what you mean. I have very mixed feelings about that (compulsory universal service). On the one hand, it would give us all so much in common and tend to unify us as a nation. On the other hand it's a *huge* coercion, and I general am against coercion except where it absolutely cannot be helped. 09:31:28 We don't have a lot that unifies us as a nation anymore. Heck, we don't even all watch the same TV show at the same time on Friday night anymore, like we all used to watch "Dallas." Now with 5,000,000 channels and DVRs to time shift with even that's gotten blown to shreds. 09:31:42 TV? What's that? 09:31:43 :) 09:31:55 Weirdo. :) 09:32:21 Ok, then, Hula on your PC. 09:32:25 Well, I grew up without it. 09:32:33 Where did you grow up? 09:32:38 KipIngram: well, the way the feds have usurped everything else, and the states play screw around - plus the way most kids get "educated" and raised today.. I think it'd be useful. Note I said TWO - not 3. In two you get basic, AIT, and some exposure to some post for a year. At that point you might re-up, and take more courses; like the life; or hate the life - but you sure have more exposure to shit people love to comment upon. 09:33:12 KipIngram: Pennsylvania, about an hour north of Philly. My folks weren't into TV, that's all. 09:33:25 tathi: not a huge loss 09:33:40 I could swallow it a lot easier if it was universal military *training*, with the actual fighting left to volunteer / career forces. 09:33:53 it's an alternative to reading. Sometimes my eyes prefer the books, sometimes the tube. 09:33:57 PoppaVic: Ya. I can see the appeal, but I'd rather do something creative/constructive. 09:34:04 KipIngram: well, it doesn't work like that. 09:34:06 I do think something can be said for having your whole population *able* to fight if something serious came up. 09:34:30 KipIngram: otoh, I also believe the CCC could easily be re-invented 09:34:56 KipIngram: sure. we got far too many crazy/whacked peaceniks 09:34:59 I guess my general "non-coercion" nature leads me to feel that if a volunteer force is adequate to defend the nation then we shouldn't be compelling people to risk their lives if they don't want to. 09:35:04 CCC? 09:35:19 If the volunteer force is *not* adequate, though, then it's different. We have to defend the nation somehow, and if a draft is required so be it. 09:35:20 tathi: Civilian Conservation Corps - a depression-era mess 09:35:29 OH, nm. found it. 09:35:36 KipIngram: "the draft" always bothered me. 09:36:03 CCC notion - yeah, no one should just get a handout. If you can't take care of yourself, get government to help, but you should have to do *something* for it. 09:36:18 Something to fill your time, and cause you to feel like you're giving at least something back. 09:36:41 The draft: the concept bothers me too - it's a form of slavery, no bones about it. 09:36:57 If the alternative is to be conquered by some other nation, though, then... I just don't know. Tough question. 09:37:01 KipIngram: well, better the CCC could be reinvented for the infrastructure, emergency-services, etc, etc - I'm sure it would work as a paramil Service sans firearms after basic/ait 09:37:45 I don't know that I'd want all those people in any sort of an "enforcement" role. 09:37:56 KipIngram: no, not the slavery.. It's a mix of feelings as to "what asshole started this shit?" plus "who else is invited to play?" and "Why the hell am I finally getting to visit overseas? Really??" 09:38:06 I wouldn't want the notions of military or police associated with them in any way. 09:38:33 KipIngram: it's gotta' remain brigade-form organization, in any event. 09:38:53 I do think if you have a draft then *absolutely everyone* should be subject to the same rules. No getting out of it because you're famous or because Mommy and Daddy are super-rich. 09:39:17 I'm fine with that, just with no authority over private citizens. 09:39:23 besides, it puts all that lovely testosterone and whatever hormones and muscles to work - while smacking their noses and brains with reality in a useful way ;-) 09:39:40 The government already has too much authority over private citizens; we don't need to add to that capability. 09:40:03 I'm all for that part of it - actually doing and contributing for your assistance. 09:40:18 the CCC was about conservations and infrastructure. That's all. It'd take a bit of time to lay out what tasks they'd servce, of course. 09:40:28 What you're really saying is that no one should be unable to get a job. If you can't find a job in the private sector then the government will employ you for *something*. 09:40:38 KipIngram: no 09:40:56 PoppaVic: But there are still organizations like that, aren't there? Just on a state rather than a federal scale? 09:41:08 So that means welfare can go away completely. You might still have something to care for disabled people and so on, but no one able-bodied would have access to "welfare." 09:41:17 What I'm saying is that 2 years, from HS out, can't harm them - they need the exposure and experience in other than a classroom, video-arcade and backseat of a car ;-) 09:41:26 tathi: I don't know of any. 09:41:32 I know there's a Maine Conservation Corps, maintains trails and so on. 09:41:37 Not sure what else they do. 09:41:44 tathi: cool. That too would work 09:42:35 KipIngram: no, it doesn't. It's a different "space" - has no bearing on unemployment at all - not intentionally. 09:42:45 I'd like to unload the federal government a *lot* and move this stuff back to the state level. Along with the tax revenues to fund it and so on. The original idea was that the states would hold most of the power and the federal government only those powers absolutely necessary. 09:42:54 We've come a long way from there, though, to the disadvantage of the states. 09:43:07 Yeah. :( 09:43:13 the Empire is falling. People let it happen. 09:43:18 If we could get back to that, then if you didn't like what's going on in your state you could vote with your feet and leave. 09:45:36 What is stopping you from doing that now? 09:45:39 Just move somewhere else. 09:46:05 Well, as much as I don't like some of the stuff that the federal government does I still prefer the US over any other nation. So I'm already in the best place I can pick. 09:46:30 nations make me laugh. 09:46:42 And I'm in Texas, which is about as happy as I can get state-wise. I just wish that I could escape the worst aggravations of the federal government by virtue of what state I'm in, but that doesn't work; those rules apply in all 50 states. 09:47:06 Me too, sometimes, because we see to have such a wrong idea of what they're about these days. 09:47:22 I see. 09:47:47 No I'm more laughing at how people think nations is something natural, and pretend there even was such a thing as nations before the 19th century. 09:47:47 Let's call a spade a spade. These days you hear all this talk about nations cooperating and sharing and so forth. 09:47:50 But oh well. 09:48:08 Sounds great. 09:48:16 cooperation is wonderful. 09:48:19 But the real purpose of a nation, when you get right down to it, is to give a group of people (its citizens) a vehicle for lifting themselves above the world-wide average lifestyle. 09:48:30 We've done that very successfully here in the US: we live great. 09:48:41 * PoppaVic sighs 09:48:47 It seems to me your living standard on average is pretty much below most of europe though? 09:48:50 The point was always mamage/control 09:48:57 and I guess japan and maybe canada and australia 09:49:00 Honestly, I don't want my children to live at the world-average income level. I want them to have the benefits of the hard work of past generations in building this nation and its economy. 09:49:15 heh income level 09:49:20 Not as far as I can tell - my living standard certainly isn't. 09:49:27 schme: the def of Living varies vastly, it's social/culture as well. 09:49:30 --- nick: krainbolt_sleep -> krainbolt 09:49:36 PoppaVic: no shit. 09:49:50 Well I'll leave you people to your verbal masturbation then. 09:50:26 PoppaVic: what'd we say? 09:50:42 Got me. Sounded like a troll. 09:52:15 KipIngram: I know I have neither it's dolly or it's ball, so.. I'm "immocent"! ;-) 09:52:37 Anyway, I'll just finish up by saying that I still believe it's ok to be proud of one's country. I think all of us should - if you live somewhere you can't be proud of then adopt a place you can. 09:52:54 Being a proud American's a bit out of vogue these days, though. 09:52:56 :-) 09:53:18 or change the place you live. We ran out of Frontiers a long time ago. 09:53:44 Yes, and I hate that. I think we should be colonizing space for precisely that reason. Frontiers are good for the human spirit. 09:54:07 With no frontiers we all start scrapping over the same pieces of pie. 09:55:01 rats in a cage 09:55:05 I'm not sure our major governments really want that, though. Just look what happened when Europe colonized America: America took itself over and came to dwarf them. 09:55:39 again *shrug* it's raining soup. 09:55:47 I doubt the US government or any major European government wants to have to worry about that happening again in the future with some off-world group. 09:56:17 Too bad, because it merely shows the manage/control feature everyone ridicules. 09:56:51 Me, I like the idea of just unleashing people to come up with whatever they can. Over time you wind up with some amazing stuff. 09:57:50 I guess that's part of why I like Forth. I remember very well when I really saw what Forth was all about I felt "unleashed" in a way. Suddently I felt like I had a lot of power over the machine. 09:58:05 It's the *philosophy* of it all that appeals to me more than anything else. 09:58:22 L. Neil Smith books ;-) 09:59:29 I've never read him, but I just Googled him, and yes, libertarian thinking runs strong in me. I don't consider myself a Libertarian (with an upper case L), but I once did when I was young. 09:59:35 KipIngram: forths and variants offer a different view of The Computer, is all. C and Haskell and whatnot "Purists" rage I don't talk about the new and neat, or tail-recursions and whatever other craziness is the rage. 10:00:37 he's got some books I love to periodically read, "The Probability Broach" was... Refreshing. I liked a lot of the views.. I liked the chars. Then I looked around me and realized it's the people, not the place. 10:00:40 Those things are just optimizations. They're cool and I enjoy them, but they aren't what define the essence. 10:01:50 KipIngram: I don't want "optimizations" running around me in forths - and in C I suffer some. But, my view on programming is odd and skewed and I piss off too many, too often. 10:01:53 Optimizations are important to me as I try to craft my own FPGA processor, but still represent chores that have to be done more than anything else. 10:03:07 "optimizations" are the shit behind the valves, gauges and controls - covered by an access-panel you hope to never remove. 10:03:09 I guess I'm an opportunist when it comes to optimizations. I generally prefer simple, simple, simple, and consistent, consistent, consistent. But something as easy as compiling a jump instead of a call if it's the very last word in the definition... well, I'm laid back enough about a tad of inconsistency when the payoff is that big. 10:03:50 Fair enough, except I'm down in there building that stuff, so they matter to me. 10:06:02 KipIngram: sure, yer IN the hw.. I like to be up above it, and too much of all the programming is SSDD almost everywhere. Several layers of that, too 10:06:20 SSDD? 10:06:28 sane-shit;different-day 10:06:31 same 10:08:05 I'm going back and forth now on the consistency vs. optimization question on this processor. I want to wind up with something that is simple enough that any competent engineer / programmer can grasp its entire operation (from logic gates to source code) in a half an hour or an hour. 10:08:29 But some optimizations pay big dividents, so I'm deciding which ones to include and which ones not to. 10:08:31 heh 10:08:55 I never even look at chips and datasheets, anymore - that's long past, done, gone and over. 10:09:03 That doesn't mean they'll be expert at programming it that fast, but they'll understand it. 10:09:22 Like chess - you can learn how all the pieces move and the other rules in half an hour, but it takes a long time to get "good". 10:12:16 It will be possible to document this processor completely in just a few pages. No 300-400 page programmer's reference required. 10:14:45 biab 10:14:53 KipIngram, i disagree about optimization paying big dividends 10:15:18 I was thinking specifically about tail recursion when I said that. 10:15:25 i wish people would stop optimizing code and get optimizing their algorithms. thts the ONLY place it pays any dividends 10:15:34 The ability to do tail recursion without inlating the return stack is a big payoff. 10:15:40 tail recursion is just using a JMP instead of a call 10:15:58 and in forth its only a minor payoff 10:16:00 Technically an optimization: a deviation from the notion that every compiled word is a subroutine call. 10:16:03 in isforth it would be done with goto 10:16:09 : foo ... xxx yyy zzz ; 10:16:24 to tail optimize that you would do xxx yyy goto zzz ; 10:16:41 Well, good point - the other alternative is to provide a way for the programmer to invoke it manually. I agree that's a worthy option. 10:16:45 the word goto pops the return address of foo off the stack and then JUMPS to zzz 10:16:50 which pushes it back on the return stack 10:16:54 Yeah, I see what it would do. 10:17:28 though. maybe goto should do ['] >body and store that value directly in IP (make goty zzz a branch to zzz) 10:17:32 I won't argue with you - your way gets all the same benefits. 10:17:33 that would make it better 10:17:55 Since I'm doing this in hardware I might do entirely different things, but I'm with you. 10:18:28 i would be against a compiler converting xxx yyy zzz into xxx yyy goto zzz automatically behind your back 10:18:31 In my case goto would be a primitive. It would expect a 16-bit address in the next cell, and would just click it into the instruction pointer. 10:18:40 Wouldn't touch the return stack. 10:19:02 right thats what i was thinking. it could be an effective branch to zzz 10:19:03 You may have me convinced - I just need to reflect on it for a bit. 10:19:12 but in my case a colon definition is 10:19:14 call nest 10:19:15 dd xxx 10:19:17 dd yyy 10:19:19 I do like simplicity and hate "behind my back." 10:19:19 dd zzz 10:19:33 so i have to do ' zzz >body and put that value in ip 10:19:56 yea. i like the A386 assembler because EJI refuses to make his assembler "plug things in for you" 10:21:20 like seg overrides for example. i agree with him. mov ax, [foo] being automatically converted to es: mov ax, [foo] because the assembler knows what segment the variable is in... 10:21:21 is bad 10:21:21 Was that the assembler that the guy put out there for free but claimed that it put "fingerprints" into the object code so that he could know if you'd used his assembler? He wanted to be paid for commercial use? This is from way, way back, right? 10:21:30 it does 10:21:31 and yes 10:21:33 It was just a whole different "feel" from MASM. 10:21:36 I loved it. 10:21:59 a mov ax, bx can be encoded as a mov bx, ax but with the direction bit inverted 10:22:07 thats one way of fingerprinting the object code 10:22:23 I was all for him. I already hated M$ even back then. 10:22:27 eric isaacson lives about 30 miles from me and i learned x86 using his shareware assembler 10:22:32 i registered it. 10:22:56 eric isaacson co authored intels first macro assembler 10:24:11 Ok, I think I'm on board with goto as a primitive. Thanks. 10:24:30 just dont use it automatically :P 10:24:50 i think i can change isforths definition of goto aswell. i think the ' >body branch method is better 10:24:54 Yup. That's the programmer's call, though. Today I'm a processor designer. 10:24:59 i basically copied the code directly out of tom zimmers FPC 10:25:12 so is CM :P 10:25:24 Here's your hammer... if you hit your finger with it it's your problem. 10:25:34 nicely put :) 10:25:39 you ever read the bill of no rights? hehe 10:25:53 No, but that sounds fun. Link? 10:26:01 if you stick yourself in the eye with a screwdriver you do not have the right to sue the manufacturer blah blh 10:26:06 google it heh its VERY funny 10:26:23 thers a blah version of it where someone decided to "correct it" 10:26:33 it should be the bill of NO rights. not the bill of non rights 10:26:46 I only wish I could design at the level CM does. I guess I could if I really wanted to - there is Magic and some place out there that will fab silicon evern for a little fish like me. A lot more expensive path, though, than buying an FPGA development kit. 10:26:47 the bill of non rights is changed from the original. read the original 10:27:19 Cm is a little fish like you he just wrote his own VLSI editing tools 10:27:31 that made him a big fish :) 10:27:43 Oh, that does look fun. 10:28:21 I really wish I could learn more about his tools. I just can't find any real documentation on them. Mostly just talk about how good they are. 10:29:04 I've commented before that the big fish in the Forth community seem to play things pretty close to the breast. 10:29:19 they probably wouldnt be very good for you unless you spent a great deal of time learning them 10:29:28 I guess they're still trying to figure out how to make real money from this stuff, and you don't do that by giving away your secrets. 10:35:51 hi I440r - sorry I missed all the above. 10:35:59 hi np 10:36:14 ah, well - Vaccuming Waits For No Man ;-) 10:36:20 i just changed the definition of "goto" in isforth from the one i copied out of tim zimmers fpc 10:36:28 yah 10:36:33 I440r: Your opinion on another nuance. My plan has been to use one bit of the 16-bit cell to distinguish between a call (the remaining 15 bits specify the address of a 16-bit aligned cell) or a non-call (the remaining 15 bits represent three 5-bit primitives). 10:36:42 f-pc was a nice imp 10:36:57 i never liked it because it never really saved the stack juggling 10:37:22 I440r: iirc, it's the imp that came with a nice curses-like editor, no? 10:37:26 KipIngram, ive ehared of that before 1xxxxxxx is a call 0xxxxxxxx is a xt 10:37:38 I could still let one case indicate "three 5-bit primitives," but if I put call targets on 32-bit boundaries instead of 16 then I could have another bit in the call case. That could distinguish between call and jump. 10:37:46 KipIngram: oh, bit-swoggling. 10:37:52 it has an editor and in dos thers no need for curses lol. in dos i/o is simple 10:37:55 Then I don't need a primitive for goto. 10:37:59 but yes. it had anice built in editor 10:38:04 I440r: you knew what I meant ;-P 10:38:11 ya 10:38:13 But I guess goto is supposed to be rarely used, so who cares, right? 10:38:19 KipIngram, :) 10:38:19 "I C you!" ;-) 10:38:30 well... in a way you do and in a way you dont. 10:38:40 KipIngram: I wanna' blast that, if I ever do another project 10:38:51 if you make the last XT in a : def automatically a goto... would that be plugging optimnizations in behind peoples back? 10:38:51 Blast what? 10:39:00 of course you cant do that if its : foo ..... 10 ; 10:39:04 it's all, ALL about unconditional/conditional branching/calling/returning 10:39:12 No, I wouldn't make it automatic. You'd still have goto in the source. 10:39:33 i say keep the goto primative but make it set a flag that tells the compiler when to and when not to compile an xt as a tail call 10:39:33 That complicates the compiler, doesn't it? Better for it to just compile a primitive and be done with it. 10:39:48 In that case it wouldn't be a primitive; it would be a compiler directive. 10:39:59 KipIngram, YES. if someone wants to compile a goto 10 then foot in self shoot 10:40:24 but if you make the compiler smart you have to account for it being able to disable its smarts when they are not appropriate. a MAJOR complication 10:40:30 KipIngram, yes 10:40:32 Yep. 10:41:53 All the above is why I've been cogitating the llvm bytecode and even tathi's fovium stuff again. 10:42:32 code 'goto', goto 10:42:35 lodsd 10:42:39 What happens if you type goto at the interpreter? If it doesn't catch it as a forbidden case and just executes the primitive then it's going to "go" to whatever address the IP happens to point to when the code executes, right? 10:42:43 add eax, byte 5 10:42:47 mov esi, eax 10:42:51 add ebp, byte 4 10:42:52 next 10:42:57 thats my new definition 10:43:25 For that matter, what's this thing going to do when you interpret *any* primitive? In fig you found the word and called it's code, but it all just "worked out." Somehow I've got to stick the primitive somewhere and then execute it. 10:43:40 I hadn't thought a lot about my outer interpreter yet. 10:43:41 KipIngram, if you make goto a compiler directive that just sets a goto bit that is automatically cleared then nothing bad will happen 10:43:52 Yes, but I'm leaning away from that now. 10:44:00 And back toward having got be a primitive. 10:44:06 KipIngram, you have a host that contains all the headers 10:44:11 you dont want the headers on the target 10:44:12 Right. 10:44:20 disembodied heads 10:44:25 yup 10:44:27 Well, I don't know about that. I have plenty of memory on the target. 10:44:33 At least by Forth standards. 10:44:49 when the user types something in interpret mode the host TELLS the target what the user wants it to execute 10:44:58 the target should have 3 operations exposed to the user 10:44:59 But you may be right - I may split this between a host and a target. 10:45:03 read. write and execute 10:45:14 Up in until now I'd assumed I could just plug into the target with a terminal and go for it. 10:45:23 KipIngram, that also very much complicates things :) 10:45:28 KipIngram: yer fluttering over state? Whom is interpreting what to which? 10:45:29 Yes, I've seen that paper on the three-instruction Forth. Very nice. 10:45:39 KipIngram, how are programs going to be stored for your processor? 10:45:47 IN the processor or in some external flash memory 10:46:04 The pattern that initializes the FPGA can also specify the contents of the on-board RAM. 10:46:04 if in external flash then you can have headers and code in flash so no need to make it host/target 10:46:09 So IN the processor. 10:46:32 hehe - "not modular" thinking ;-) 10:46:40 i would say have it stored in flash and have some external hardware move the flash contents to ram at boot 10:46:41 Minimalist thinking. 10:46:47 and have a "write ram back to flash" command 10:46:56 Well, that's how the FPGA gets initialized; there is a memory chip used for that. 10:47:20 But it contains a special pattern that also specifies the logic. 10:47:32 i think if you store code in the fpga too your going to either limit your logic space or require a more expensive fpga to accomodate 10:47:40 i know 10:47:44 So writing it back isn't really an option. That pattern gets generated by the tools you use to develop your FPGA pattern. 10:47:44 More and more, it sounds like the very, very old idea of hw+bios+monitor embedded/sbc 10:47:58 yup lol 10:48:00 I would provide a way to dump the RAM contents, though, so I could then port them into the FPGA pattern through the vendor tool. 10:48:50 Cost isn't an issue here. We make down-hole tools for the oil industry and they sell for a bloody fortune. Even then the mechanical stuff is the lion's share of the cost - not the electronics. 10:48:50 I440r: which, I've told folks, remains valid in everything but a unix-like multiuser system, (unless it's Master Console directed ;-) 10:49:02 I'm more interested in a solution that I can use over, and over, and over again. 10:49:13 PoppaVic, forth was designed to be multi user :P 10:49:13 And I need to conserve board space - our boards are very long and very narrow. 10:49:20 tho not on the scale of unix 10:49:20 KipIngram: well, EE is cheap; it's metals, forging - manpower and programer-art. 10:49:41 I440r: I know - it's not easy to explain that to linux-heads or dozers anyway 10:49:46 kip is this a project for work or a personal project? 10:49:56 commercial 10:49:58 Well, both really. 10:50:12 isforth is not multi user in the way traditional forths are. i dont have user vars 10:50:13 KipIngram: still sounds fun ;-) 10:50:14 It started out as a hobby thing, but I'd like to be able to work on it when I'm at the office so I'm lookingfor apps. 10:50:23 i was planning on using my bios (erm the linux kernel) to do the multi user parts :) 10:50:38 I440r: user-var are ok, conceptually. I never liked what I saw implemented. 10:50:38 are you the boss at work? 10:50:44 i needs a job !!! }:) 10:50:48 but im not a hardware dood 10:50:52 In hobby mode I was focused on blazing speed (absolute max I could squeeze), but for work purposes I'm really more interested in precision timing of I/O. 10:51:17 I manage the EE department. 10:51:19 KipIngram, funny how a change of perspective can cause an entire change in design goals :) 10:51:33 yah - totally different goals - or layers 10:51:42 Yes, indeed. 10:52:29 I started the CNC drill project with a Service-Tech system - let me do ANYTHING to the poor lil microcontroller - the User Interface was a lot prettier and restricted. 10:54:09 PoppaVic, i would LOVe to work on CNC stuff. i have some things i would love to be making hehe 10:54:13 cnc is intersting stuff too 11:01:00 Stepping away for a while, guys. Catch you later. 11:02:18 ok, vac complete. whew.. If sis can tell me what she used to use on gramps furniture, I can get that done next. 11:04:21 I440r: well, the machine-proper was driven by a cheap lil' ucpu - we used std serial i/o - so, we created a "pcode" for commo, (oh, I used to love the arguments with him ;-), and the dos machine was managing the drill files, programs, editor, status, etc, etc, etc.. I love protocols/pcode. 11:09:40 tathi: odd opcode-folding in the example entailing "1 2 + . ;" hmm.. 11:10:44 Oh? 11:11:55 Yeah.. I'm reading it back and forth.. why didn't you just fold the binary word at the top as ";;;;;;cccccc++++++;;;;;;llllllllllll"? Following bites are payload-stepped 11:12:10 bits 11:12:25 I don't follow 11:12:32 hmm. 11:12:53 well, I'm - oh.. wait.. SIX bits 11:13:11 oh, yeah - that'd still work. 11:13:17 Doesn't it have an opcode word lit/lit/+/. followed by 1, then 2? 11:13:46 tathi: I'm just thinking - yeah, then the call+address (limited) then zero plus colon 11:14:31 Oh, I see. In the README file. I haven't looked at this in a few years. 11:14:38 It just sees there could be more folding and more range - saves a whole 32bit word. Maybe it's me. I see folding and I wanna' FOLD ;-) 11:15:05 I'm still not clear what you mean by that 11:15:15 at the least, it "reads" easier to my ol' brain than the llvm drivel. 11:15:38 lemme paste sumpin' up.. This would be an alternative... 11:15:53 ok 11:16:09 Oh, I forgot it goes from the low bits first. 11:16:17 OK, reading again... 11:16:56 You're suggesting having the call address in a separate word? 11:17:33 here: 11:17:35 00;;;;;;cccccc++++++llllllllllll 11:17:35 00000000000000000000000000000001 11:17:35 00000000000000000000000000000010 11:17:36 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAA 11:17:38 00000000000000000000000000oooooo 11:17:46 last word is not needed at all 11:18:51 --- quit: DrunkTomato () 11:18:53 granted, I grasp the fetch & run idea 11:19:10 OK, I see. The issue with that is then you have to save both the address *and* opcode word in order to return to the right place. 11:19:46 oh, heh! d'oh 11:20:01 OK, so you'd point past the call and just roll along 11:21:38 --- quit: dinya (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:21:41 One design mistake (IMO) with fovium was making branch targets be an absolute address. 11:22:13 right. Should be relatives 11:22:20 If it was relative, you could have them use the remaining bits in the instruction word as a signed offset, so you could pack short jumps in more places. 11:22:35 I plan for 100% relatives. 11:22:39 As it is, you usually want to put the call opcode as the only thing in the word, and save the rest for the address. 11:23:30 reduces the range, unfortunately. And, going relative will do similar 11:23:47 Yeah, depends on your needs, of course. 11:23:53 right. 11:24:27 I don't much give a rat's ass about 64-bit machines, but it's not horribly much harder to allow for the greedy buggers ;-) 11:27:20 OK, I'd better get some work done. 11:27:23 tathi: it's depressingly amusing that the same issues arise with fseek/ftell and friends: is that a Small or a large softdrink, sir? ;-) 11:27:24 ok 11:27:31 Heh. 11:33:33 lol further optimized goto. its down to 3 opcodes now heh 11:33:38 heh 11:33:39 mov esi, [esi] 11:33:44 add esi, byte 5 11:33:45 hacqueer ;-) 11:33:49 add ebp, byte 4 11:34:04 well, 3 opcodes not including the... 11:34:05 next 11:34:29 tathi: I'd want to ask where the last two bits of the call-address came from: the INITIAL instruction-word, or the next? 11:34:50 h5rm actually thinking about it. that add ebp is wrong. just right out delete that 11:34:52 I refuse to look at x86 at all. Period. Ever. 11:35:05 phobia? 11:35:28 mov esi, [esi] 11:35:32 add esi, byte 5 11:35:33 next 11:35:45 I despise intel, and M$ - but no.. I've no need to hit the asm. Not with C. 11:35:45 thats the new definition for goto. the discard return address was wrong 11:36:02 well i call BS on that but ok :) 11:36:17 c does not replace the need to understand the processor. 11:36:24 plus, I don't even want to learn about the assorted "rings" and level-locking and blah 11:36:26 but you Do know asm so... fine 11:36:31 yah 11:36:46 PoppaVic, i dont mess with any of that either. thats what the "bios" (aka the linux kernel) is for 11:36:59 I440r: that's a point I have tried and tried to impress on newbies - I don't give a damn WHAT processor, but sheesh - grasp a few clues 11:37:05 right 11:37:38 I440r: we need a 20-core Z80 with each having it's own 64K ;-) 11:38:02 no. not z80. 8051 11:38:10 6510! 11:38:15 64k ram and 64k flash :P 11:38:24 no. 8051 is better than 6502 11:38:25 * PoppaVic raises the stacks, er steaks, er STAKES! ;-) 11:39:41 I440r: never used them. the 6510 let you bank in on the c64 - like the ts-1000 did from sinclair, too ;-) 11:39:58 yes the c128 did banking 11:40:02 it had 5 banks i think 11:40:09 but that complicates things 11:40:20 now we will hear from the kids "What is banking?" 11:40:23 heh 11:40:41 8051 is preferable to 6510 and i learned to code by reverse engineering a c64 proggie by HAND 11:40:51 yup 11:41:02 a9 01 85 02. err whatas an a9... oh thats an LDA... wtf is an lda? bah who cares just write it down 11:41:19 or entering hex from programmer rags - to then view with a disasm ;-) 11:42:00 this was a 6510 disassembler that was published in a mag as a basic program with data statements containing the machine code 11:42:05 to be poked and then executed 11:42:10 yah. 11:42:11 i did a hand disassembly of the entire thing 11:42:21 Monitor Program ;-) 11:42:55 i liked the way the c64's assembler packed "LDA" etc etc etc into 2 bytes 11:43:05 the c64 assembler was some VERY clever code 11:43:29 wish i had a copy of it still 11:45:16 i still prefer the 8051 though. specially the si-labs family of processor 11:45:28 they are not 1mhz :P 11:46:44 The cpu-speed isn't an issue to virtual. 12:33:16 --- join: gnomon_ (n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 12:48:02 --- quit: gnomon (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:20:57 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 13:48:56 --- quit: PoppaVic (Client Quit) 13:49:16 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pops@99.150.139.232) joined #forth 13:53:21 a9 01 85 02 is lda #01 ; sta 02 13:54:02 and 6502 is WAY better than 8051 13:56:08 --- join: Maki (n=Maki@dynamic-78-30-155-247.adsl.eunet.rs) joined #forth 14:04:25 segher no 8051 is better. but its close :) 14:04:31 and yes. thats what those opcodes are 14:04:38 I ain't gonna' argue CPU - I don't wanna' ever see them again ;-) 14:04:44 lol 14:04:50 ur in the wrong channel then }:) 14:04:51 --- join: gnomon (n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 14:04:58 pcode me, babe! ;-) 14:06:10 8051 is way slower, and awful "architecture" 14:06:14 isn't "idiom" what the forch-community calls the common lil' seq of "noise words"? I was trying to advise the other day. 14:06:20 forTh 14:07:18 it might be 12MHz, but is takes 12..48 cycles for each insn, it's really 1MHz with a 12x clock 14:07:58 and if you want to argue that newer 8051 is faster than that -- well the *original* nmos 6502 was sold at 4MHz already 14:08:06 no. 14:08:15 its 100 mhz and executes one opcode per clock 14:08:18 not one every other 14:08:29 look at the si labs versions of the 8051 :P 14:08:36 idiom? anyone? (then I'll duck and cover during the firefight ;-) 14:08:41 those are 4 clocks per cycle 14:09:02 well. one opecode per instruction cycle i meant 14:09:15 so "25MHz" would be a good name 14:09:40 to bad that most basic things take about 20 cycles still 14:09:53 you have to love that single DPTR, heh 14:10:26 single dptr isnt a problem. i wrote a direct threaded forth for various si labs 8051's 14:10:40 they have single dptr. atmel 8051's have dual dptrs tho 14:10:55 it makes most memory accesses very slow. dual dptr doesn't help for most things 14:11:00 direct threaded within a harvard arch... gotta love it :) 14:11:03 * tathi doesn't like 8051 either -- I'll take 6502 over it any day. 14:11:10 tathi: yeah 14:11:39 dont get me wrong. i love the 6502 but the 8051 is better 14:11:52 6502 has its quirks and weaknesses, but at least it is a balanced and sane design 14:11:52 doesnt need an extra external chip for all its io ports and timers etc 14:12:15 there are many 6502-series chips that do not need that, either 14:12:50 z80 - poot! 14:12:59 when 6502 came out, there even was the 6530 companion that had rom, ram, timers, i/o, clock gen, all in one 14:13:47 i didnt like the z80 14:14:06 I440r: beat the heck outta' intel and 8080 14:14:14 * PoppaVic shudders.. 14:14:14 the best thing about z80 was that it wasn't 8085, hehe 14:14:35 heh 14:14:44 I440r: but did you design and build the boards yourself? peripheral chips really only really matter if you are the one doing the building and trying to keep the costs down 14:14:46 6502 was better than the z80 tho 14:15:01 bogen i dont do hardware design :P 14:15:16 i still think the 51 family is better than the 02 family and i love them both 14:15:22 it's a much neater design. 1MHz 6502 was about the same speed as the fastest z80 14:15:26 I440r: so why does it matter if the peripheral items are on or off chip? 14:15:33 cost 14:15:52 51's have a higher performance to cost ratio than 02's 14:15:59 yes, on-chip peripherals are way *more* expensive 14:16:08 back in the day, that is 14:16:15 die-development, yeah 14:16:25 just yield and stuff 14:16:26 also discrete is easier to maintain. 14:17:07 although, in the Disposable World, I'm easy - if it works for my dollars, it works for people ;-) 14:17:07 yeah, back then, nowadays it is not as much of a factor unless you going really small or building the board yourself on a protoboard 14:17:43 bogen: well, it still all comes back to what/where/why/how.. 14:17:54 of course 14:18:19 bogen thats not true. if your going to be producing 100 thousand units a year saving 1c per board is very significant 14:18:34 I know that :) 14:18:52 but saving a chip per board does no necessarily make it cheaper, quite the opposite 14:19:06 --- quit: gnomon_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:19:25 factor in the trashcan and repairs, warranties, lifetimes, costs. Then get into cell-phone contracts and shaft the consumer forever ;-) 14:19:30 ive worked on projects that started out on the lowest cost chip in a family and because they were using OOP c and kept add and adding and adding they had to keep upgrading the processor. in the end they were 500 bytes of code space left on the highest chip and only 1/2 of the way complete in their code 14:19:48 heh 14:19:50 i told them to give me the board with the lowest cost processor and ill complete the existing design in a month 14:19:50 I440r: ugh. 14:20:09 instead they downsized their R&D department from 30 to 2 lol 14:20:11 not me :P 14:20:12 sometimes going with a less capable MCU part and adding moving some the needed items into already on board CPLD, etc 14:20:17 OOP has its place though 14:20:17 can save as well 14:20:30 ...someone mentioned a trashcan? :-) 14:20:41 I440r: THink "pleasant thoughts" - the manager, on a platter, roasted, sporting an apple in the mouth. yummm 14:20:45 oop done right is just a TOOL that can be used. mostly oop is done so badly wrong as to be scary 14:20:56 sure 14:20:58 --- quit: joe_____ ("leaving") 14:21:04 oop is not the alpha and omega. FORTH is grrr :P 14:21:10 thinking, it helps. 14:21:23 and C++-style OOPS has not many good applications 14:21:45 this was c oop. and it was done using about 4000 data structures 14:21:56 that is that same style. 14:21:58 with hundreds of instances of each structure 14:22:10 very bad design. very VERy bad implementation. 14:22:11 survival of the fittest.... unfortunately cockroaches are very resilient... 14:22:20 I think structure and API. Break down the prob and chuck out assignments. 14:22:29 and it was a very VERy simple project that could have been done in a month by anyone with half a clue 14:23:11 i'm so old-fashioned... top-down design, bottom-up implementation 14:23:23 what segher said 14:23:29 design from high level. code from low level 14:23:30 segher: I sorta' agree - I meet a point around the middle 14:23:39 yeah, it hard to beat that into the head of the C/C++ cockroaches. 14:23:43 and separated testing is for managers, not programmers 14:23:59 You take all the prototypes out of their C files and correct the order and they freak out. 14:23:59 think it over - break out course, lay out the coarse to ascertain fine, iterate, stepwise, refactor. 14:24:07 segher which is why forth wins. code a little. teset it. fix it. code a little more. test it. fix it 14:24:24 I don't really argue that. 14:24:25 i program C stuff in a very "forthish" way as well, heh 14:24:31 instead of code 2489562348953 gigs of puke then wait 8 hours for it to compile. then anothe 4 hours to link followed buy 6 years of debug 14:24:31 segher: yah. 14:24:42 the compiler can inline by itself quite well enough, heh 14:24:57 the C'ers got tired of me suggesting it - we are all supposed to embrace haskell, lisp, etc ;-) 14:25:34 i440r: what is this "fix" step after the "test" step? 14:25:41 Well, I take C'ers over C#'ers any day though.... 14:26:00 bogen: yeah, they don't even sign in tune 14:26:05 sing 14:26:07 Make it Run; Make it run Right; Make it run better ;-) 14:26:19 segher: yah 14:26:34 thats for when you made a typo :) 14:26:43 oh, typos 14:26:47 all real coders type IN the cracks 14:26:51 gotcha :-) 14:26:56 }:) 14:27:12 like the way i has an answer for everything??? 14:27:13 C# does not let you make a typo, or tries to prevent you at least 14:27:14 you need to hire me 14:27:18 NAO!!! 14:27:21 "I know what I eanted, and where I wanted it - how come.. D'oh!" 14:27:29 wanted 14:29:00 C# says to this, turn off your brain for the most part, type something, and I'll try to figure out what you want, and you pick what you thing is what you want. Don't think too hard, other wise you'll mess up. Leave the thinking and figuring things out to me. 14:29:16 s/what you thing/what you think/ 14:30:50 So because C#'ers try to keep C# happy, they never learn to program. 14:31:05 :) 14:32:06 * bogen notices this channel is forth, and not bash C# 14:32:21 lol 14:32:33 we dont get anally retentive about anything in here other than trolling :) 14:32:49 there are NO rules about what you may or may not chat about 14:32:54 that has always been my one and only rule 14:33:43 i has to go make spu-gettee 14:33:48 bbl 14:36:56 gah.. ok, down too a mere 1/8c of peppercorns to sift thru *sigh* damn. 14:37:40 never, ever wrap the peppercorns in foil, then bag twice, to beat with a sledge - ok? Just don't 14:39:47 --- quit: GeDaMo ("Leaving.") 14:58:52 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote closed the connection) 15:13:37 --- quit: Maki ("Leaving") 15:26:07 --- join: ASau` (n=user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth 15:43:45 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 15:55:47 I440r: how do I get IsForth to use black text / white background like I have my console window set to? 15:59:36 --- quit: krainbolt ("Ex-Chat") 16:04:11 --- join: JoshGrams (n=josh@dsl-216-227-91-166.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 16:04:19 --- quit: tathi (Nick collision from services.) 16:04:24 --- nick: JoshGrams -> tathi 16:04:44 Silly router 16:04:52 heh 16:04:53 KipIngram: black >fg white >bg should do it 16:05:57 Hrm. I'm not sure how you get it to use those settings by default though. 16:06:40 comline or config file - rule the universe ;-) 16:09:09 It's not running anyway. Doesn't seem to build right on my system. 16:09:41 kernel.com segfaults. 16:09:43 Yeah, IIRC it depends on the ELF headers being a certain size. 16:10:39 I'm not having a lot of luck with anything other that gforth. I couldn't get pfe to run either. 16:11:00 Huh. 16:11:10 * PoppaVic chuckles 16:11:11 bigForth ran but I didn't like the way it "felt." 16:11:26 I'm just over in the corner, nodding a lot ;-) 16:11:27 What are your requirements? 16:11:47 Or are you just trying different systems for fun? 16:12:22 KipIngram: I did get a running pfe, eventually - I never remember I have it installed - and I can't tell you if I kicked the hell out of the makefile, or just grabbed a binary build in frustration. 16:13:13 Well, for fun but also because I really do want to get away from using C, bash, and perl as my main "tinkering tools." I want something that feels as comfortable as a favorite glove and "just works." 16:13:50 gforth is pretty much the the tinkertoy I use. 16:14:10 gforth is probably your best bet for "just works", as long as you don't mind it being kinda big. 16:14:29 I have the impression pforth is fairly solid, as long as you don't need features it doesn't have... 16:14:32 yeah, I don't see it as some form of "production tool" 16:14:46 I don't like the fact that it's GPL. I'd rather get one of the LGPL offerings to work, just in case I wind up writing something I want to sell. 16:14:49 pforth.. I think I tried it, and building it died 16:15:09 I've used pforth under Windows with great luck for a client application once. 16:15:21 Never tried it under Linux. 16:15:43 Hmm...or maybe FICL. I think that's a BSD or MIT license. 16:15:51 KipIngram: gpl, lgpl - how many just dump a nice pcode image? How many cross-compile? Either of those null/void gpl/lgpl. 16:16:05 Used it as an interface "scripting" language for a pick and place machine and tied the I/O to the network. Made it so you could program and run the thing from anywhere on the LAN. 16:17:01 You've mentioned pcode a lot - I generally know what that means, but exactly what are you referring to in the Forth arena? 16:17:22 bytecode 16:17:28 like tathi's fovium 16:17:41 Yes, I know. But how does that void gpl/lgpl? 16:17:45 java bytecode - whoevers 16:18:45 Do you mean you'd use the Forth to generate a pcode image that you then ran on a JVM? 16:18:46 KipIngram: GPL means "you may not steal or rename our source - you may not repackage our source". LGPL means "you may use our binary output, but you may not steal, rename, repackage the source" 16:18:54 So the Forth would really be a cross-compiler for Java? 16:18:58 I have no interest in java at all. 16:19:25 but, sure - you'd work in a dev-environment and generate a bytecode for jvm or llvm - whatever you want. 16:19:54 I don't want to steal anyone's source. I might want to sell binaries that I generated. Maybe. I don't know if it will ever come up, but if it did I wouldn't want to have to change tools to be able to do so. 16:20:04 Maybe I don't understand GPL the way I thought I did. 16:20:07 looking over the llvm stuff, I see a few interesting ideas, but it's seriously stackframe-centric ala' C 16:20:34 I think that the compiler being GPL doesn't usually impose restrictions on the binaries... 16:20:36 KipIngram: well, you work more commercial than I. It never bugs me because I don't distro their sources - I link to them or not. 16:20:48 But like I said, there's pforth (public domain) or FICL (BSD? MIT?) 16:20:53 right 16:20:54 If I build an app with Forth (a proper Forth app, that uses the Forth interpreter to process commands) then the Forth is in some sense built into my product. 16:21:10 Oh, right, using the interpreter is a problem. 16:21:19 I'm of course willing to make the source of the Forth public as instructed, but I'd want to keep the source I wrote that extended Forth into my app a secret. 16:21:21 KipIngram: yes, if you open it to the vocs, and you use their engine. 16:21:23 Will GPL let me do that? 16:21:38 No, I don't think so. 16:21:46 KipIngram: gforth mentions this, I know - I just can't recall the bottomline 16:21:48 It won't will it? It insists that any derivative must also be GPL. 16:22:06 Right. 16:22:08 I /think/ they have issues with their runtime-image. 16:22:13 Whereas LGPL distinguishes between those cases. The source you got for free you have to share; the source you wrote you don't. 16:22:44 pforth has a good license I think; I believe I assured myself of that before using the C source code for my client's app. 16:23:05 I remember having no troubel at all building it under Visual C. 16:23:09 pforth is public domain, yes. 16:23:20 and supposedly strict ANSI C for portability. 16:23:25 Maybe I should try it before going further. 16:24:25 FICL is similar, but BSD licensed, and a bit more features, I think. 16:24:26 hrm 16:25:07 KipIngram: lemme know what you learn, I can't recall building/installing pforth.. See? Get a "big" drive and you lose track of everything! ;-) 16:25:36 I never did screw around with ficl - I got upset with it early. 16:25:43 Hold on; unless my wife wakes up from her nap in the next few minutes I'll give it a try now (pforth). 16:25:45 I remember :) 16:26:05 and, tathi you KNOW bone is trying to get me to try lua ;-) 16:26:12 You wanted to iterate over all wordlists or something -- I wrote you a patch for it. :) 16:26:19 Lua is cute. 16:27:00 tathi: yeah, I wanted a fig-forth, (at the least) to embed in C ;-) 16:27:17 as it is, i believe it was entirely the wrong angle on the issue(s) 16:27:32 Except you want bytecode for some reason 16:27:44 yup 16:27:51 Why is that, again/ 16:27:55 ? 16:28:21 Grr...why am I having trouble with my shift key lately? 16:28:34 tathi: it's a perversion. Write a simple bytecode engine, anyone can implement. Or, you take that as "intermediate code" and let another tool crank out the optimized flup 16:29:00 [flup] ...for some given target 16:29:18 Why not just use the source? 16:29:55 I guess then you can distribute compiled bytecode which is presumably smaller... 16:29:57 tathi: yeah, that too works - just piggy.. Next you'll mention XML and someone will need to die ;-) 16:30:02 right. 16:30:58 the pcode should be useful immediately and anywhere with the engine. If someone wants optimal then decode it into whatever lunatic opcodes the machine believes are native. 16:31:19 Ok, it's building. 16:31:53 tathi: plus, everyones take on "optimal" takes on the insanity of Holy Wars, Crusades and Jihads. 16:32:03 It built. Here goes nothing... 16:32:10 pforth.. ok 16:32:13 It's running. Wow. 16:32:39 ahh, I have a pforth in the PATH ;-) 16:32:41 Heh. I had a little trouble building the latest cvs or svn or whatever. The tarballs generally seem to just work. 16:32:47 PForth V21 16:33:04 tathi: I will never, ever warm to svs/cvs 16:33:25 This is pforth v24. 16:33:26 PoppaVic: that's OK, git is better anyway. :-P 16:33:31 Yes, git is. 16:33:33 I love git. 16:34:00 No idea.. On the Sixth Day, Bog created Tarballs. 16:34:37 If PoppaVic accepted tarballs while using a modem he'll really like them with dsl... 16:34:45 PoppaVic: seriously, you should try a modern version control system. They're easy enough to use that there's no reason not to... 16:34:46 can and did and do ;-) 16:35:18 tathi: well, I installed Subversion and git, iirc - never bothered to use them. Like I'd tag-team with anyone ;-) 16:35:48 I use git for everything, regardless of whether I'm sharing or not. Easier than tarballs, I find. 16:36:04 I feel like I'm home again... I remember this. Time to dust off that old pForth info. 16:36:10 well, tarballs let me do nice session-burned cd's 16:36:10 Dinner time. Catch you guys later. 16:36:14 laters 16:36:19 KipIngram: have fun 16:36:25 :-) Thanks. 16:38:20 git can create tarballs just as easily as tar does 16:38:52 tathi: well, then they can create them and I'll use them ;-) 16:40:45 OK. You ever want to take the five minutes to try it, let me know and I'll walk you through it. :-) 16:41:15 Good enough, thanks 16:41:45 I know I should.. and I also know I prolly need to do a complete wipe and reinstall and update, too. 16:44:29 Hey, do whatever you want. I'm just saying, in my opinion, the tools have gotten to the point where it's actually really easy to get started. 16:53:40 tathi: yeah, *everyone* tells me this.. I even can grasp why they like it. Just not that worried for now, (since I code almost nothing of late), and I really want to get us away from this anyway - even if it sounds less sane than usual. 16:54:52 Yeah, I figured that was the case. 16:55:45 well, I was losing drive before I had to dry Ma out.. I've lost a lot of interest in the last decade. 17:02:49 --- quit: |dinya_| (Connection reset by peer) 17:03:02 --- join: |dinya_| (n=Denis@188.17.90.6) joined #forth 17:48:39 --- quit: Quartus` (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 17:54:58 --- quit: |dinya_| (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:54:58 --- quit: tathi (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:54:58 --- quit: TR2N (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:56:37 --- join: |dinya_| (n=Denis@188.17.90.6) joined #forth 17:56:37 --- join: tathi (n=josh@dsl-216-227-91-166.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 17:56:37 --- join: TR2N (i=email@89-180-197-189.net.novis.pt) joined #forth 17:57:26 --- quit: TR2N (SendQ exceeded) 18:02:16 --- join: TR2N` (i=email@89.180.197.189) joined #forth 18:03:23 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 18:05:15 --- nick: TR2N` -> TR2N 18:29:13 --- join: _dinya__ (n=Denis@188.17.90.6) joined #forth 18:32:15 --- quit: |dinya_| (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 18:46:28 --- join: TR2N` (i=email@89.180.197.189) joined #forth 18:47:52 --- quit: _dinya__ (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 18:47:52 --- quit: TR2N (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 18:47:52 --- quit: foxes (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 18:47:53 --- quit: I440r (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 18:47:53 --- quit: uiu (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 18:47:53 --- quit: Frek (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 18:48:45 --- join: TR2N (i=email@89.180.197.189) joined #forth 18:48:45 --- join: foxes (i=flash@222.131.163.19) joined #forth 18:48:45 --- join: I440r (n=me@c-69-136-171-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:48:45 --- join: uiu (n=ian@HSI-KBW-078-042-132-111.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) joined #forth 18:48:45 --- join: Frek (n=nmacbook@81-225-142-146-no36.tbcn.telia.com) joined #forth 18:49:58 --- quit: TR2N (Nick collision from services.) 18:50:02 --- nick: TR2N` -> TR2N 18:54:47 --- quit: uiu (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:54:50 --- join: uiu (n=ian@HSI-KBW-078-042-132-111.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) joined #forth 18:55:04 --- quit: I440r (Connection reset by peer) 18:55:23 --- join: I440r (n=me@c-69-136-171-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:01:16 --- quit: Frek (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:01:17 --- quit: foxes (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:03:20 --- join: madwork_ (n=madgarde@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 19:03:26 --- join: foxes (i=flash@222.131.163.19) joined #forth 19:03:26 --- join: Frek (n=nmacbook@81-225-142-146-no36.tbcn.telia.com) joined #forth 19:09:19 --- quit: gnomon (Remote closed the connection) 19:09:31 --- join: gnomon (n=gnomon@99.232.20.26) joined #forth 19:09:36 --- quit: TR2N ("Time left until the Epochalypse: 28yrs 8wks 2days 3mins 43secs") 19:09:44 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:10:11 --- join: TR2N (i=email@89.180.197.189) joined #forth 19:10:25 --- join: I440r (n=me@69.136.171.118) joined #forth 19:22:43 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:10:40 --- join: ASau`` (n=user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth 20:11:15 --- quit: ASau` (Remote closed the connection) 20:22:57 --- quit: bogen (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 20:24:29 --- join: bogen (n=bogen@cpe-76-186-22-145.tx.res.rr.com) joined #forth 20:24:46 --- quit: bogen (Client Quit) 20:46:22 --- join: Quartus` (n=Quartus`@74.198.8.60) joined #forth 22:38:09 Night all. 22:38:34 bye 22:39:02 Last sip of beer going down. Here's to all of you; I've had a lot of fun since dropping in here. :) 22:39:13 heh - good deal ;-) 22:39:27 I got gorgeous cinn-rolls ;-) 22:41:33 heh cool 22:42:20 --- join: ASau``` (n=user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth 22:42:31 KipIngram: it's just basically bread dough, mashed out and one side butter, bs, cinn-sugar; roll, pinch, slice and tray - all else like bread ;-) 22:42:58 Any chance I can get it to work with whole wheat flour? 22:43:06 I used some, yes. 22:43:29 --- quit: ASau`` (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:43:29 --- quit: gnomon (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:43:29 --- quit: Frek (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:43:29 --- quit: foxes (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:43:43 Cool. Tomorrow dinner will be pizza from scratch. 100% whole wheat crust. 22:43:52 Got to sleep. Night. 22:43:59 KipIngram: I'm still seeking the Perfect Bread Dough, for hand-making here at home.. It's getting there.. I did have to get Hi-glut flour, so I can easily mix wheat or rye ;-) 22:44:24 cool - sleep well. Thanksgiving is Pizza ;-) 22:44:29 --- join: gnomon (n=gnomon@99.232.20.26) joined #forth 22:44:29 --- join: foxes (i=flash@222.131.163.19) joined #forth 22:44:29 --- join: Frek (n=nmacbook@81-225-142-146-no36.tbcn.telia.com) joined #forth 22:44:30 --- quit: gnomon (Connection reset by peer) 22:44:32 We must stay in comm re: this. I think it's an important quest. 22:44:38 certainly 22:44:40 --- join: gnomon (n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 23:31:28 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x708D5A0C) joined #forth 23:38:46 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/09.11.21