00:00:00 --- log: started forth/09.11.14 00:07:58 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x708D5A0C) joined #forth 00:27:01 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 01:09:55 --- join: GeDaMo (n=gedamo@212.225.108.57) joined #forth 01:19:56 --- join: pgas (n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/pgas) joined #forth 01:44:46 --- join: DrunkTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 01:48:52 --- quit: DrunkTomato (Client Quit) 01:49:56 --- join: DrunkTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 01:50:36 --- quit: segher ("This computer has gone to sleep") 02:56:18 --- quit: pgas ("/quit") 03:19:04 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 03:27:03 --- join: _mathrick (n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk) joined #forth 03:27:16 --- quit: mathrick (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:52:31 --- join: segher (n=segher@84-105-60-153.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 03:54:34 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x708D5A0C) joined #forth 04:05:37 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 04:09:59 --- join: tathi (n=josh@dsl-216-227-91-166.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 04:30:54 --- nick: _mathrick -> mathrick 04:38:36 --- join: InvisibleTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 05:02:30 --- quit: DrunkTomato (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:10:53 --- quit: GeDaMo ("Leaving.") 05:17:11 --- join: Judofyr (n=Judofyr@cC694BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) joined #forth 05:36:59 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote closed the connection) 07:24:38 --- join: xjrn (n=jim@astound-69-42-10-25.ca.astound.net) joined #forth 07:37:20 --- join: qFxo (n=C00K13S@5356B263.cable.casema.nl) joined #forth 07:40:02 --- quit: qFox (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 07:42:17 --- nick: qFxo -> qFox 08:24:00 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pops@adsl-99-35-30-22.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 09:18:59 Mornng PoppaVic. Hope you got more sleep than I did. 09:19:23 I think I did. 09:20:02 I've been up 6 hours; had to drive to Austin and back to pick up my daughters for the weekend. 09:20:03 KipIngram: your daughters walk all the night? 09:20:15 Ah. 09:20:37 Hm. 09:20:45 Is TAMU in Austin? 09:20:52 At least one of them can drive, though, so I got relief for the trip back. 09:21:42 That's sacrilige ASau. The University of Texas at Austin is in Austin. TAMU is in College Station. 09:21:43 One of my former uni groupmates should be in Austin. 09:23:03 * ASau is trying to fix PFE brain damage. 09:23:23 Actually, this is quite common among Forth developers. 09:23:43 They like to break common conventions just exactly when 09:23:43 there's no need to do so. 09:24:55 Which bit of PFE brain damage are you trying to fix now? 09:24:57 Maybe I'll succede in importing it into main distribution by Monday. 09:25:04 Docs generation. 09:26:18 Ideally, it shouldn't need BOTH perl and python to do so, 09:26:36 but this is quite a distant goal. 09:26:44 As for now it should just BUILD. 09:32:44 E.g. this cause problems: 09:32:46 perl ../../doc/help2man.pl ../pfe/pfe > ../../doc/pfe.1 || true 09:33:02 There should NOT be "|| true", it should damn fail. 09:33:24 instead of failing anyway, only at installation time. 09:36:33 And this is what I hate in autoshit: 09:36:53 you have either to apply your changes manually or restart from scratch. 09:37:37 ya 09:37:54 But that's true of anything that generates code 09:38:10 Wait, can't you just run config.status? 09:39:01 No. 09:39:11 It doesn't present problem with YACC or LEX. 09:40:32 Same applies to f2c, chicken scheme and many other sane tools. 09:40:40 OK...I guess I don't understand what part you're changing. 09:41:17 Makefile.am 09:43:05 Huh. OK. I thought in that situation you could just re-run automake and then the command which recreates the current configuration. 09:43:37 Except that it basically means rebuilding everything from scratch. 09:45:27 What really helps is that forthers can't do anything large, like Axiom or OpenOffice. 09:45:37 Hehe. 09:45:52 That would be real nightmare. 09:46:23 I remember my OpenOffice debugging. %| 09:55:09 Why do you say Forth can't do large applications? 09:55:28 The fact that people commonly *don't* doesn't mean that the language won't handle the job. 09:56:50 Because there's no evidence of anything large enough. 09:57:29 What are large applications outside there? 09:57:38 nnCron? 09:57:48 acWEB? 09:58:00 Other ac* network servers? 09:58:28 But you said "can't", not "don't". Nonexistence of examples would support "don't". It wouldn't support "can't". 09:58:43 No, nonexistence means "can't". 09:58:51 Until it is proven otherwise. 09:59:13 I'm not going to have this argument with you; it will be like the one on individualism the other day. 09:59:26 Besides, it's time to get ready for my bicycle ride. 09:59:48 There're quite large applications in C, Python, C++, Lisp, Java. 09:59:53 If you want to convince me of "can't" then you need to point out the technical aspects of the language that make producing large apps impossible. 09:59:55 They are orders of magnitude larger. 10:00:14 Lack of modularity support is main problem. 10:00:35 That's because orders of magnitude more programmers have adopted those tools and spent orders of magnitude more time writing stuff. If everyone had used Forth from the start then we'd have large apps in Forth. 10:01:01 Show me that orders of magitude crowd of Lisp programmers. 10:01:40 Forth users were quite numerous in 80s. 10:01:44 The software community made a philosophical error decades ago - they abandoned simplicity and elegance as the driving consideration and embraced complexity - and Forth suffered as a result. 10:02:02 Oh, no. 10:02:06 It's the same mindset that has us need faster computers in order to support more complex operating systems. It makes no sense. 10:02:11 You consider Forth of 80s as elegance. 10:02:30 Beautifully simple and clean, yes. 10:02:33 Conceptually. 10:02:49 It is nowhere beautiful nor clean. 10:03:05 Nothing close to Lisp. 10:03:12 Let alone Scheme. 10:03:18 Ok - now that I've stuck a rock under your saddle I'm ducking out to cycle. But I will be happy to resume this debate later on. 10:03:30 * PoppaVic chuckles 10:03:46 Sorry for the timing. 10:03:55 excellent timing 10:08:57 Ha! 10:09:22 I've run into that gnu build system major defect, 10:09:38 where it did wrong decision on not following BSD way/ 10:27:24 Aha!! 10:27:28 That's what's wrong! 10:29:48 Of course, those elegance and simplicity lovers didn't bother to test what their package does in reality. 10:36:34 Dependencies changed again. 10:36:36 Rebuild. 10:59:17 --- quit: ASau (Remote closed the connection) 10:59:45 --- join: ASau (n=user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth 11:25:17 --- quit: ASau (Remote closed the connection) 11:25:57 --- join: ASau (n=user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth 11:31:55 --- quit: ASau (Remote closed the connection) 11:33:06 --- join: ASau (n=user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth 12:28:53 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@71-214-171-153.tcso.qwest.net) joined #forth 13:14:42 --- quit: saper (Remote closed the connection) 13:18:00 --- join: saper (n=saper@wikipedia/saper) joined #forth 13:20:19 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0022b0b24a15-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 13:20:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 13:20:27 --- quit: saper (Connection reset by peer) 13:22:20 --- join: saper (i=saper@wikipedia/saper) joined #forth 13:27:34 --- quit: saper (Success) 13:27:39 --- join: saper (i=saper@wikipedia/saper) joined #forth 13:36:08 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 14:13:32 --- join: Yurgen (n=Yurgen@oreandacinema.yaltaonline.net) joined #forth 14:14:42 --- part: Yurgen left #forth 14:16:23 --- quit: qFox ("Time for cookies!") 14:22:46 --- join: Yurgen (n=Yurgen@oreandacinema.yaltaonline.net) joined #forth 14:22:57 --- part: Yurgen left #forth 14:23:00 --- join: Yurgen (n=Yurgen@oreandacinema.yaltaonline.net) joined #forth 14:39:22 --- part: Yurgen left #forth 14:40:13 --- join: Yurgen (n=Yurgen@oreandacinema.yaltaonline.net) joined #forth 14:40:19 --- part: Yurgen left #forth 14:40:56 --- join: Yurgen (n=Yurgen@oreandacinema.yaltaonline.net) joined #forth 14:41:43 --- part: Yurgen left #forth 14:51:29 --- join: Yurgen (n=Yurgen@oreandacinema.yaltaonline.net) joined #forth 14:51:32 --- part: Yurgen left #forth 15:46:42 --- quit: Judofyr (Remote closed the connection) 16:40:02 --- quit: InvisibleTomato (Client Quit) 16:41:14 --- quit: ASau (Remote closed the connection) 16:41:45 --- join: ASau (n=user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth 18:33:37 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 19:16:11 --- quit: xjrn (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:29:41 --- join: H4ns (n=Hans@p57BBB202.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 19:46:17 --- quit: H4ns1 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:50:51 --- join: xjrn (n=jim@astound-69-42-10-25.ca.astound.net) joined #forth 21:24:59 --- quit: segher ("This computer has gone to sleep") 22:54:24 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x708D5A0C) joined #forth 23:09:22 --- join: luptenschteiner (n=User@unaffiliated/probonono) joined #forth 23:21:47 --- quit: probonono (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:28:55 --- join: qFox (n=C00K13S@83.86.178.99) joined #forth 23:28:58 --- quit: xjrn (Nick collision from services.) 23:29:21 --- join: xjrn (n=jim@69.42.10.25) joined #forth 23:38:03 --- quit: PoppaVic (Client Quit) 23:48:09 --- quit: xjrn (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/09.11.14