00:00:00 --- log: started forth/09.11.05 00:26:20 --- part: TR2N` left #forth 03:13:42 --- join: foxLapto1 (i=flash@222.131.160.45) joined #forth 03:16:23 --- quit: nighty^ (Excess Flood) 03:16:49 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@210.188.173.245) joined #forth 03:17:13 --- quit: foxLaptop (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:34:36 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 04:10:50 --- quit: grub_booter (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 04:26:24 --- join: grub_booter (n=charlie@d515301E0.static.telenet.be) joined #forth 04:49:52 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 05:09:08 --- join: DrunkTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 05:20:14 --- join: tathi (n=josh@dsl-216-227-91-166.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 05:26:25 Why are people who are interested in colorforth always so totally incompetent that they don't know how to use google? 05:27:12 http://colorforth.sourceforge.net/ 05:28:27 Or for my reconstruction of the source to the 2005 release, with a couple of bug fixes (web search doesn't turn this one up): http://qualdan.com/colorforth/chuck05-jg5.tar.gz 05:29:14 gavino syndrome. 05:29:23 That's because of misinformation. 05:29:41 If they were more or less competent, they would _never_ look at colourforth. 05:55:46 asau lol NOW i can agree with you :) 05:56:14 i quote CM alot with "the ans forth standard does not describe the forth language but a language of the same name" 05:56:21 i say exactly the same about colorforth 06:04:48 most people who bash ANS think they are forced to use ANS everywhere. many people who like ANS think the same. it's a problem 06:06:02 im not forced to use it. i refuse to use it (well.. i use it on a job if thats what they are paying me to use :) 06:10:27 Now that's amusing. 06:10:36 Alright, I've got to go. 06:10:42 --- quit: ASau ("off") 06:10:44 --- part: rares left #forth 06:50:00 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 07:40:36 --- join: GeDaMo (n=gedamo@212.225.108.57) joined #forth 07:45:49 --- quit: foxes (Remote closed the connection) 07:46:42 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 07:47:27 --- join: ASau (n=user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth 07:51:18 --- quit: ASau (Remote closed the connection) 07:59:29 --- join: ASau (n=user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth 08:18:26 --- join: fefefefe (i=53e35f0f@gateway/web/freenode/x-5b9e1097b0855002) joined #forth 09:04:25 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:23:00 --- join: KipIngram (n=kip@173-11-138-177-houston.txt.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 09:36:37 --- join: madwork (n=madgarde@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 09:56:08 --- join: TR2N (i=email@89.180.189.41) joined #forth 10:49:57 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pops@adsl-99-150-135-165.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 11:38:55 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x708D5A0C) joined #forth 11:45:04 --- join: I440r (n=me@c-69-136-171-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:08:36 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 12:22:16 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:22:40 --- join: I440r (n=me@c-69-136-171-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:22:41 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 12:37:59 --- quit: fefefefe ("Page closed") 13:05:48 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:08:31 --- join: aguai (i=aguai@114.32.77.124) joined #forth 13:13:07 --- nick: Snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy_1611 13:13:26 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 13:34:37 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-212-024.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 13:36:53 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 13:39:11 Hi group. Does anyone know of any interesting work that's been done in the electronics CAD area using Forth? I'm thinking of having a go at it and thought it would be nice to learn if anything has come before. 13:39:35 I know Chuck Moore did OKAD for IC layout, so I thought there might be a payoff for PCB layout as well. 13:40:43 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-088-068-211-014.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 13:40:52 First question is whether you have enough Forth skills to deal with it. 13:41:00 Even if it does exist. 13:45:07 Well, I guess that's really for me to find out when I dive in. I don't work with Forth daily, but I did earlier in my career. I've been around the block. 13:45:36 I've written a few Forth systems too, also some time back. College days. 13:45:52 I don't know if OKAD or other CAD is available. 13:46:00 Not for free definitly. 13:46:02 First one was in 6809 assembly. Standard indirect threaded system. 13:46:32 I had a coworker who wrote his own Scheme interpreter. 13:46:36 I'm not really looking for a system that's already done; I want to write something and thought I'd see if anyone had talked about such a thing in papers, etc. 13:46:48 I don't remember he ever wrote any application in Scheme. 13:50:29 I looked around for OKAD related things during lunch today, but aside from one web page that gave a short paragraph on some of the various entities it dealt with I couldn't find anything. Nothing at all about why doing it in Forth elevated the user experience (that is, nothing about how the human interfaction with the system "connected" with the Forth implementation). 13:51:28 Forth has big problems with "user experience" part. 13:51:30 Interaction. Though "interfaction" is a pretty cool sounding word too - needs to mean something. 13:52:12 --- join: Snoopy_1811 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-216-164.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 13:52:59 --- join: X-Scale` (i=email@89-180-189-41.net.novis.pt) joined #forth 13:54:25 --- quit: TR2N (Nick collision from services.) 13:54:28 --- nick: X-Scale` -> TR2N 13:54:53 It seems to provide the best experience when the application lends itself very naturally to a "vocabulary-based" command set. So that a nice set of words just makes the process seem "right." CAD is so graphics oriented; I don't quite see how to bridge that "words to pictures" gap. I was hoping to find some info on how OKAD approached that, but there's just nothing there. 13:56:25 I'm a big fan of Linux and the whole open source approach to things. I'm a big fan of Forth too, but I surely can't say that the big guns in the Forth community have much of an open source approach to things. A lot of stuff is held *very* close to the breast. 13:57:34 --- quit: Snoopy_1711 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:59:00 I've seen nice article on Microsoft Research back 8-10 years ago. 13:59:11 It is Haskell-oriented, but it may give some clue. 13:59:57 Clues are good. Thanks. 14:00:27 Wait a bit, I may have a link somewhere or recall key words to search for. 14:00:42 It only takes time. 14:01:16 Ok; I'll be here. 14:06:57 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:13:42 Hm. I cannot find it. 14:14:18 Alright. 14:14:23 I'll try to explain it. 14:15:04 You can formalize actions on graphic "arena" this way: 14:15:21 any action is a map of previous state to the next one. 14:15:44 That is each point is translated to another one. 14:15:53 What "point" is. 14:16:10 Well... Forget it. 14:16:28 Picture is just a mapping from screen coordinates to pixel colour: 14:16:38 (x, y) -> c 14:17:31 This means that you can construct picture as function composition. 14:18:19 E.g. you can have coordinate transform (x, y) -> (x, y), 14:18:30 I'm with you. 14:19:01 then you can represent rotations, parallel translations like 14:19:43 newpict((x,y)) = pict(tr((x,y), (vx, vy))) 14:19:56 I hope you follow. 14:20:25 So you have two areas on the screen, then? A text area for typing commands and a graphic area for seeing the results? 14:20:40 You can have it that way. 14:20:57 That's what AutoCAD did, isn't it? 14:21:07 There's another rather large area in graphic processing. 14:21:12 I have the impression that OKAD did too 14:21:12 Yes, I think so. 14:21:18 "Functional Reactive Programming" 14:21:56 There's bridge between Forth and FP through Joy and Cat languages. 14:22:47 You may wish to get closer acquaintance with PostScript as well. 14:22:58 There's damn too many to do in Forth. 14:23:26 The problem is that Forth community lacks people with necessary knowledge. 14:23:50 On Ertl has some necessary background. 14:24:02 But he's alone. 14:24:14 And it doesn't look like he's interested that much. 14:24:46 But this state that you manipulate. How do you save it? Or do you at all? I guess you could use Forth's fast compile capability to just rebuild from source on every edit. 14:24:59 --- quit: DrunkTomato () 14:25:33 You can do any way you like it. 14:27:57 I like the source approach - you already have a mechanism for storing source, so you don't have to write any save / load code. Just compile and there it is. 14:28:16 If you have some "source representation", you can re-apply changes from time to time. 14:58:57 ASau: necessary knowledge for what? 14:59:53 For R&D skills. 15:05:53 What would you like to see researched? 15:07:10 There're lots to revise in Forth. 15:07:31 Programming and project management approaches _may_ differ a bit. 15:23:15 Asau: What are some of the things you think need revising in Forth? 15:25:28 First thing to revise is collaboration approach. 15:26:31 Forth is source-based and has too small community, 15:26:31 GNU style fascism won't work here. 15:27:00 Python is rolling around mixture of BSD and GPL, 15:27:38 and all software that has immediate application in 15:27:38 commercial projects is distributed on BSD terms. 15:28:23 Common Lisp rolls around MIT terms. 15:28:48 Forth had good tradition of public domain as well, 15:28:54 but it was forgotten. 15:29:25 Instead we have many linux weenies that produce legally non-reusable components. 15:30:00 Second thing to revise in the same respect is attitude to libraries and portability. 15:30:12 sure 15:30:51 Public domain basic packages would do great break-through. 15:31:00 Only they need to be portable. 15:31:23 Not "all systems have CHARS equal to NOOP", 15:31:33 not "all systems have separate FP stack". 15:31:37 Heh. 15:31:48 And so on. 15:31:56 That's something I've never been clear on. Do you actually use a system with 16-bit characters? Or...? 15:32:10 * PoppaVic chuckles 15:32:22 Yes, I do have 4-octet characters a bit. 15:32:32 *use 15:33:20 It's easier to work with sci texts this way. 15:34:04 I see. 15:34:25 I just define ": chars 4 * ;" and build local copy of my libraries. 15:34:42 And they damn WORK! 15:35:06 amusingly, we were just discussing the whores of utf-16 elsewhere ;-) 15:35:34 All because I cared a bit not to be sloppy. 15:35:40 Yeah. 15:35:53 Asau: hey, that paper you were trying to think of earlier wasn't "Haskell as an automation controller" was it? 15:35:56 The trouble I have with portability is that almost none of the so-called Standard system actually are. 15:36:17 KipIngram: maybe, I'll look it up. 15:37:01 tathi: _if_ we have some experience with _following_ our own standard, 15:37:11 it may open interesting and valuable perspectives. 15:37:17 Like generic packages. 15:37:59 I have some code that treats numbers according to their purpose. 15:38:48 I can redefine some words to work with double precision 15:38:48 real numbers instead of single-cell integers, and it damn WORKS! 15:39:28 Interesting 15:40:34 Sure, it cost me rather long time to polish it to that state, 15:41:05 but this is what they tell in their [censored] "Thinking Forth". 15:41:26 Again the point to revise. 15:41:58 If they'd follow their own propaganda, Forth would be in better shape. 15:46:03 --- join: Frek (n=nmacbook@81-225-142-146-no36.tbcn.telia.com) joined #forth 15:54:36 Brad asked me on c.l.f. quite a complex question I can't find time to answer. 15:54:58 Basically, we need to deal with local stack frames somehow. 15:55:04 We have to. 15:57:47 Tha implies you want for a word to be able to reach out of its own parameter space? 15:58:03 You don't mean you want to give names to stack cells, do you? 15:59:09 But there's no tradition in Forth of writing complex programs, 15:59:09 which do require complex handling. 15:59:28 Regular Forth programmer is trapped by Sapir-Whorf: 15:59:50 he can't think of it, hence he can't imagine it. 16:00:10 He can't talk about it. 16:00:30 heh 16:01:14 Forth has too many deniers. 16:01:37 Deniers? 16:01:43 heretics! 16:01:57 blasphemers! 16:02:03 and riff-raff 16:02:05 40 years of all this discrete math, computational linguistics and so on, are declaimed void. 16:02:26 As if it never existed and noone needs it. 16:02:55 what does it have to do with forth? 16:03:05 It has all to do with Forth. 16:04:02 if you say so, meanwhile: which forth does it have to do with? 16:04:04 Forth is a language, hence it is subject to discovered laws. 16:04:21 _Any_. 16:04:43 It doesn't matter, if it is colourForth or not. 16:04:58 my forth is subject to my laws only, since I develop it for my own use :) 16:05:04 Forth has grammar, Forth has semantics. 16:05:16 @crc: precisely. 16:05:19 umm.. ok 16:05:37 crc: is yer forth properly lockstepping? ;-) 16:05:39 --- quit: garfield_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 16:05:44 Like I said above, you are trapped by Sapir-Whorf thesis: 16:05:50 Forth appeals to my sense of individualism. 16:05:55 I'm not trapped at all. 16:05:58 I don't know, Asau, I can think of a lot... 16:06:01 you don't talk of it, hence you can't imagine it. 16:06:11 I'll implement any features I need for a given project 16:06:23 That has nothing to do with Forth - it has to do with the creativity of each individual. 16:06:25 You believe you're individual, while you're not. 16:06:25 or use a different language if that suits my mood better 16:06:44 I'm not? 16:06:51 No, you're not. 16:06:59 why not? 16:07:15 Because you don't use language of your own invention. 16:07:38 You've accreted chunks of various sources. 16:07:42 my choice of language strips me of my individuality? 16:08:09 If you care to learn linguistics, you'll find that you can 16:08:10 trace many things to other experience. 16:08:22 Recognizing and embracing beauty and elegance doesn't strip one of individuality. 16:08:30 KipIngram: agreed 16:08:42 You believe that you're individual, but you're not. 16:09:37 It's like a bee. 16:10:03 You believe that if it has unique combination of wing length/width and so on, 16:10:08 it's individual. 16:10:22 It sounds to me like you believe there are no individuals. 16:10:46 You don't follow me. 16:10:53 Evidently not. 16:11:34 Unique combination of your weight, height, eye colour, hair and so on 16:11:35 _doesn't_ make you an individual. 16:11:48 No, my freedom to make my own choices does. 16:11:55 You're still human and share behaviour patterns with others. 16:12:03 Some. But not all. 16:12:06 Oh, choices. 16:13:04 There's some distribution of patterns across H.s.s., 16:13:04 but you don't outlie far. 16:13:12 In fact, you're close to average. 16:13:27 ASau: are *you* an individual? 16:13:39 No. 16:13:57 in your view, are there *any* individuals? 16:14:01 I can track my views back to dark ages. 16:14:04 * PoppaVic checks topic.. Nope, Not "twilight zone" 16:14:24 No, there're no individuals. 16:14:32 ok 16:14:46 Wow - I never realized. Now I have to rethink all of my politics... 16:14:47 * crc resumes eating 16:15:27 crc: For instance, you are _not_ individual right now. 16:15:48 Your behaviour follows usual "deny unconvenience" pattern. 16:16:29 You can go around Internet and find the same in various 16:16:29 forums, chat channels &c. 16:16:38 I agree 16:16:40 It doesn't depend on whether you know Forth or not. 16:16:52 Hence you are _not_ an individual. 16:17:17 there are plenty of people who are similar to me 16:17:18 You're subject to common psychology laws. 16:17:23 but none of them *are* me 16:17:59 Damn, you still believe that "individual" is the combination of physical measurements. 16:18:13 No, I absolutely do *not* believe that. 16:19:02 You can prepare two identical grains of salt, and tell that this is no. 1, another is no. 2. 16:19:11 they ain't "laws", either. 16:19:18 If I, or @crc, or you ceased to exist at this moment then the universe would be a lesser place for that. Each of us has innate value simply by existing. That's the basis of our individuality. 16:19:31 In classic physics, you can't mix those grains up. 16:19:39 --- join: garfield_ (n=uwekloss@p54867D7E.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 16:20:41 You're drawing the talk into philosophy of individual. 16:20:45 Yes, but you can in quantum physics if they are entirely identical. *Entirely*. I'd be willing to grant you a point if you argued that two human beings that were identical in *every* respect weren't indviduals. 16:20:48 Apply this to Forth somehow, please. 16:21:00 KipIngram: If I cease to exist, y'all do too ;-) It's in the rule-book. 16:21:01 But no two people are identical to one another in every respect. 16:21:12 :-) 16:21:23 I like that one PoppaVic. 16:21:29 If you don't apply it to Forth, I'll do it for you. 16:21:35 And I do it this way: 16:21:51 KipIngram: metaphysics-R-us ;-) 16:21:59 your chaotic philosophical views on individuality make forth suck. 16:22:45 Other languages do find common points among practitioners, 16:23:01 and they make high quality software products for free. 16:23:27 Note, that if they can afford doing it for free, it doesn't present big problem. 16:23:47 Have you got a point, eventually, or just a monolog to polish up? 16:23:58 Yes, that's the point. 16:24:16 If they can give what they do for free, then it is easy to do. 16:24:32 How much free Forth code have you seen? 16:26:01 not much 16:26:34 Same point is made by gavino, when he asks where web 16:26:34 servers, web frameworks, graphical tools and other fun stuff is. 16:26:55 starting from the days of FIG? About a footlocker of books and printouts. I've disposed of all my books but maybe 2 boxes, now. 16:27:03 If there isn't, Forth programming is _no_ fun. 16:27:24 gavino doesn't search for code, he just expects it to be dumped on him. 16:27:24 don't be a fool, "fun" is personal and varies. 16:27:50 No, we're not individuals so it can't vary. We have to have the same definition of fun as ASau. :-) 16:27:51 crc: oh, do you mean that gforth web server is state of art? 16:27:55 nope 16:28:02 neither is the one I wrote in toka 16:28:12 but you don't always need a state of the art server 16:28:17 I can see the introspective "where is the.." view.. I've done it for years. So what? 16:28:31 * crc does a lot of work with a small http server written in perl, far from state of the art 16:28:59 not everything needs to be state of the art 16:29:26 crc: you keep toka almost closed. 16:29:42 If noone knows about it, it presents problem. 16:29:45 how so? 16:29:52 umm.. Huh? 16:30:09 http://github.com/crcx/toka 16:30:10 For instance, I've learnt that you have web server only a minute ago. 16:30:22 Where was that URL published? 16:30:25 my non-advertising means that it's closed? 16:30:28 Announced. 16:30:30 Yes. 16:30:35 It does mean that. 16:30:39 charleschilders.com 16:30:44 my personal web site 16:30:54 * PoppaVic eye-crosses, to look himself in the eye 16:30:56 along with links to most of my other current projects 16:30:59 Note the word "personal". 16:31:09 * crc is not a "business" 16:31:19 I code for *me* most of the time 16:31:24 You're so public person, that almost noone knows of your existence. 16:32:13 And yes, you should dump it on gavino and on anyone else who asks. 16:32:18 so? 16:32:28 --- join: xulfer (n=xulfer@adsl-70-233-147-100.dsl.okcyok.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 16:32:29 I don't care about publicity 16:32:36 If you don't do that, web server is effectively non-existing. 16:32:39 I *used* to promote retro and projects 16:32:53 And it gained no popularity. 16:32:53 I had to scale back due to personal issues 16:33:02 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@210.188.173.245) joined #forth 16:33:14 popularity is not my goal 16:33:19 crc: damned analoglife keeps popping up to ruin our time ;-) 16:33:23 Have you ever tried to analyze why it fails? 16:33:29 I don't care 16:33:57 --- quit: GeDaMo ("Leaving.") 16:34:08 And almost anyone doesn't either. 16:34:11 case in point: reva. It started as a fork of retro, with additional optimizations in the compiler. 16:34:35 It's gained a far more active community than retro 16:34:49 and I'm happy to continue coding as a hobby 16:35:20 other projects (Ent, Paki) are popular within the community I created them for 16:35:31 When gavino asks about web server next time, will he gets an answer from reva community. 16:35:44 ? 16:35:51 nope 16:36:00 because ron doesn't actively follow comp.lang.forth 16:36:13 So, effectively they are close to you in that respect. 16:36:18 who is a gavino and why would anyone care? 16:36:30 I fail to grasp the issue 16:36:37 PoppaVic: gavino is a troll who haunts comp.lang.forth newsgroup 16:36:46 ok. I noted more than a few 16:36:46 He's good indicator of community disease. 16:37:27 --- quit: Snoopy_1811 (Connection timed out) 16:37:53 ASau: I fail to see what the troll has to do with forth imps, projects, etc 16:38:17 While in comp.lang.lisp or in comp.lang.scheme he may count 16:38:17 as a troll, since they do have web servers, web frameworks and 16:38:17 other neat stuff he asks about, in comp.lang.forth he annoys 16:38:17 everyone because noone can present valid answer. 16:38:29 ASau: where are *your* projects? 16:38:38 I help gforth. 16:38:50 umm.. I'm not seeing an iota of sense in above 16:39:16 gforth, if you don't know it is a major Forth implementation. 16:39:33 I know of gforth 16:40:38 gforth.. the imp I use with docs that are never going to be completed - in info format. 16:41:10 Send patches. 16:44:50 --- log: started forth/09.11.05 16:44:50 --- join: clog (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 16:44:50 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language and a variety of technical subjects. Introduction and Helpful Reading: http://forthfreak.net/index.cgi?FnFC | ANS/ISO Forth Standard doc: http://tinyurl.com/nx7dx | Gforth compiler: http://tinyurl.com/s8uho | http://quartus.net/search | Paste: http://forth.pastebin.ca | http://www.isforth.com' 16:44:50 --- topic: set by I440r on [Fri Feb 13 08:39:24 2009] 16:44:50 --- names: list (clog nighty^ xulfer garfield_ Frek TR2N aguai maht uiu_ nottwo malyn uiu Raiford scj kleinjt clog_ TreyB @crc gnomon Al2O3 nighty___ schme yiyus saper madgarden probonono mathrick segher gogonkt aguaithegeek foxLapto1 grub_booter tathi ASau KipIngram madwork PoppaVic) 16:44:56 well, back to my corner. 16:45:42 You can start with documentation patches and get more involved, if you care. 16:46:22 why in the world would I care? 16:46:49 You work on it, you deal with it. I didn't release the shit w/o docs. 16:47:05 You don't, others do. 16:47:23 Because unreleased work is effectivly undone one. 16:48:14 Noone in the world cares, if you have all kinds of neat stuff on your disk. 16:48:50 --- join: Snoopy_1811 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-216-164.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 16:50:28 * crc resumes working on retro 16:51:03 heh 16:52:20 --- join: Raystm2 (i=rastm2@c-24-8-232-212.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:52:26 hi Ray 16:52:41 Hi crc. Just the man... 16:52:50 * ASau is back to his Common Lisp code... 16:53:00 Unfortunatly, it is too hard to write in Forth. 16:53:05 Ray: how goes the colorforthing? 16:53:06 Maybe later, maybe never. 16:53:41 have fun :) 16:53:45 Can you ( or anyone for that matter) recommend a decent narrator software ( freeware preferably) I'm looking for something with more realistic voices. 16:53:56 Hi ASau :) 16:54:10 Things are going good for me. And You? 16:54:11 Good... hrm... Morning? 16:54:26 Thanks, nice. 16:54:30 should be evening where Ray is 16:54:34 Flaming around. :) 16:54:45 Got some feedback about Pentium colorForth TheMovie-test 16:54:49 It is 4am here. 16:55:00 Yikes early/late depending... 16:55:08 Forth is hard but Lisp is easy???? 16:55:11 I was up at 4am too... 16:55:22 lisp has more libraries. and data types. 16:55:26 FLisp is hard Lorth is easy. 16:55:55 crc: that could be excuse, but I don't use any for now. 16:56:10 I mean, for this project. 16:56:13 just an observation :) 16:56:34 I almost have Lisp 1.5 in Forth. 16:56:45 cool 16:56:59 is the code open? 16:57:58 --- quit: clog_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:58:03 Sidebar - will colorForth (or any bootable "owns the machine" Forth) run on a virtual machine? 16:58:16 there is one colorforth image that runs under qemu 16:58:31 colorLorth is really easy... when not complete... http:colorforth.info/new_site/colisphorth.html 16:58:37 That's cool. Where can I find that? 16:58:41 yikes 16:58:43 Not yet. 16:58:59 http://colorForth.info/new_site/colisphorth.html 16:59:06 hope that works. 16:59:09 http://retroforth.org/qemu-c4th.gz 16:59:32 Thanks. 16:59:35 I've booted it, and done a few simple tests; it seems to work ok 16:59:47 ASau: ok 17:00:33 ASau that link is "almost lisp 1.5 17:00:34 " 17:00:37 in colorForth 17:01:01 I need to do an eval, which means I need a decent atom comparison funtion. 17:01:10 function even 17:01:36 Atoms are compared by EQ, that is by pointer. 17:01:50 I need those as well. 17:01:51 Ya. 17:02:30 eq and equal. The point of my presentation is how colorForth benefits from a very few very low level lisp operators. 17:03:16 But I will do a colorLisp. 17:03:38 AND I'm about 1/4 thru the Knuth MIX simulator as welll. 17:03:43 Just now working on ADD 17:03:57 did a movie of colorForth 17:04:02 I've been busy. 17:04:07 Hm. 17:04:12 Probably I'll go another way. 17:04:28 individualism. 17:04:28 I'll rebuild FriCAS and get my bug fix. 17:04:43 :-) 17:04:44 This will save me from CL part. 17:04:47 and I'm tending towards an API framework in windows for Retroforth10 17:04:55 I see. 17:05:31 Forth - Group Individualism. I like that PoppaVic and Hi PoppaVic :) 17:05:51 Have not seen you since your last ban at some unappreciated chat. Missed you. 17:07:35 I broke some teeth on a HotPocket(pizza) and I lisp now vocally so I need a screen narrator to dialog the over-the-shoulder movies I'm doing. 17:09:12 lol maybe I'll just narrate with a lisp and deal with it. 17:14:12 ASau: did you check to see if that paper was the one you were thinking of? 17:14:36 19:51 <@Morasique> i'm not sure if that was a serious suggestion or a chance to make fun of java 17:15:11 okay just uploaded an avi format of TestMovie. still loading... 17:15:14 KipIngram: no, that isn't that paper. 17:15:20 Ah, Java's pretty cool. It seems to enable a lot of otherwise hard to get functions. 17:15:33 Found a neat converter, should anyone need a fileformat change. 17:15:37 Ok; thanks. 17:15:52 OTOH, you can find much fun stuff on automatic control in Haskell. 17:16:40 I didn't read it; no time. Just saw that it seemed to reference images of some kind and thought I'd check before I get busy here. 17:16:42 There're works that use elaborate techniques in design of all this (micro)electronic devices. 17:16:46 Got to take the kids home from gym soon. 17:17:16 The problem is that they have nothing in common with Forth. 17:17:34 Well, a good CAD package is a godsend. Nice to have design rules automatically enforced, and so forth. 17:17:39 Forth is about the simplicity of interpreter, it isn't about simplicity in tools. 17:17:43 KipIngram have you spawned gymnists? :) 17:17:57 I'm afraid so. Three of them. 17:18:02 hehe cool cool. 17:18:05 One's a cheerleader too. 17:18:12 Or on her way, at least. 17:18:20 Great. Good activity. 17:18:36 My kids are Growed(tm) 17:18:48 nearly all gone ( 3 as well) 17:18:52 1 left. 17:18:57 She plays soccer too, and this year it's been fun to watch her tumbling skills show up on the soccer field. 17:19:06 She goes down and just bounces up like a rubber ball. 17:19:17 That's neat. 17:19:25 :-) Very fun. 17:19:34 Glad you still have one left to enjoy for a while. 17:19:35 Dancing helps but gymnists make great goalies. 17:19:49 Ya. me too. :) 17:20:21 Our girl. She's 18 but we are living in a new town in a new state ( for us) and she doesn't really know anyone yet. 17:20:43 Poor girl's friends are in Texas and we are in COLORrado 17:21:03 colorADO :p 17:21:08 :) 17:21:14 Hey, I'm in Texas. Katy (just west of Houston). 17:21:25 Trapped in the oil industry. 17:21:26 I know Katy. 17:21:38 No one else is paying, it seems. 17:21:41 "Trapped." Ha! 17:21:52 I wish I were trapped like that. 17:21:54 Passed it often when I opened a store in Houston and commuted from Ft.Worth. 17:22:09 I'm trapped in [censored] IT. 17:22:13 Why didn't you go up 45? 17:22:15 hehe 17:22:56 45 is okay but 6 is blazzingly fast and pretty. 17:23:20 Yes, 6 is nice. 17:24:22 ASau: where do you live? 17:24:58 On one of those trips it iced so bad that It took twelve hours to get from FtW to Hou. 17:25:20 That must have been up close to the FtW end. 17:25:30 KipIngram: Moscow. 17:25:35 I wittness a Houston Patrolman wreck on a bridge near the beltway. 17:25:55 ASau: Oh - now I understand everything. :-) 17:26:02 ASau: Sorry - couldn't resist. 17:26:11 I was doing 35 up the iced bridge and the COP spun passed me at over 60 17:26:20 Come on, there's a good oil business in Russia, right? 17:26:38 I used to work for Ion Geophysical, and they couldn't get over the idea of doing business in Russia. 17:26:39 --- join: cce891ed (n=chtr@freya.dhcp.rose-hulman.edu) joined #forth 17:26:56 At least I'd be closer to my speciality and had more chances to get out of this state. 17:27:01 I'd love to see Russia. 17:27:17 Me too. The Kremlin architecture is just amazing. 17:27:19 You have more chances to do so. 17:27:42 What's the phone number to Intourist. :) 17:27:56 j/k 17:28:32 Hey guys, I have to wrap up this gym thing. I'll be back in 45 minutes or so. Hope I don't miss anything great. :-) 17:28:51 Safe Drive. 17:28:54 You can read everything in the log. 17:30:04 D'oh movie too big to take at Google Groups. exceeds 10MB limit 17:30:12 37mb 17:30:30 crc should I post it to the server and then add a link to group maybe? 17:30:37 go ahead 17:30:41 Ty. 17:40:03 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-216-164.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 17:56:55 --- quit: Snoopy_1811 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:57:39 --- quit: ASau (Remote closed the connection) 17:59:16 --- join: ASau (n=user@83.69.227.32) joined #forth 17:59:36 finished my cross compiler :-) 17:59:55 segher, hi. CC? 18:00:04 cc? 18:00:10 oh 18:00:26 sorry, idiot at the keys here... ya Cross Compiler. :) 18:00:31 opertunity to brag a bit. :) 16:03:26 --- log: started forth/09.11.05 16:03:26 --- join: clog_ (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 16:03:26 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language and a variety of technical subjects. Introduction and Helpful Reading: http://forthfreak.net/index.cgi?FnFC | ANS/ISO Forth Standard doc: http://tinyurl.com/nx7dx | Gforth compiler: http://tinyurl.com/s8uho | http://quartus.net/search | Paste: http://forth.pastebin.ca | http://www.isforth.com' 16:03:26 --- topic: set by I440r on [Fri Feb 13 08:39:24 2009] 16:03:26 --- names: list (clog_ ASau Snoopy_1711 cce891ed Raystm2 clog nighty^ xulfer garfield_ Frek TR2N aguai scj Raiford uiu malyn nottwo uiu_ maht kleinjt TreyB @crc gnomon Al2O3 nighty___ schme yiyus saper madgarden probonono mathrick segher gogonkt aguaithegeek foxLapto1 grub_booter tathi KipIngram madwork PoppaVic) 16:03:34 it's an ITC, i'll probably make it TTC 16:04:04 Hmm. 16:04:23 Probably I should learn that funky C99 syntax for unions. 16:04:46 it's the same ass for structs 16:04:52 as 16:05:00 As if I know it for structs :) 16:05:13 .tag=value 16:05:31 That's neat. I didn't know you could do that. 16:05:43 oh, you mean init. 16:06:10 if you have struct ( int tag; } x; so you could write x.tag = val; you can write x = {.tag=val}; 16:06:13 OTOH, when I grok ELF loader, this will be unnecessary. 16:06:40 same goes for e.g. { [0]=1, [3]=42 }; 16:07:04 That is neat. 16:07:19 how "funky" 16:07:26 and you can write thing like { .a.b[3].c[4][76] = 1337 }; even 18:07:48 That is leet. :) 18:07:48 if you have totally lost your rockers, that is 18:08:06 Oh, I take that back. I do remember seeing it when I was reading the c99 spec. 18:08:26 tathi: that'll grow hair on yer palms 18:09:05 anyway, this "dict" is one big array of type "cell" (which is a union of int, pointer, array of char and such), which is a static local array inside a function, that has all these labels called code_XXX: 18:09:21 PoppaVic: eh. It's not that bad. 18:09:38 the &&code_XXX syntax takes the code address of the label 18:10:00 tathi: Cheer up, It Could Be Worse - see the new drafts. 18:10:06 heh yeah 18:10:51 I want to avoid that by creating ELF directly. 18:11:01 not terribly portable 18:11:17 Why? 18:11:39 Do you have any modern OS except NT that uses anything else? 18:11:40 well, if you don't write sections or symbol tables nor relocations at all, it's not so bad 18:11:56 ASau: oSX 18:11:57 no, i mean, writing elf isn't terribly portable between atchitectures 18:12:15 OSX can run ELF. you need to teach it how though 18:12:31 There're not so many modern architectures either. 18:12:48 i run on 28, heh. 18:13:04 (all 28 archs supported by linux) 18:13:17 GCC supports quite a few more 18:13:42 and then there are at least three times more architectures than that in active use 18:14:27 Well... 18:14:32 Gosh segher. 18:14:47 I'm sure I'm not going to buy PA-RISC or S/390 any time soon. 18:15:20 here, count only the "important" stuff: x86 (32-bit and 64-bit), powerpc (32-bit and 64-bit), sparc (v8 and v9), arm (all millions of variants, all with different elf), mips (same story) 18:15:44 PowerPC is almost dead as well. 18:15:49 Same applies to SPARC. 18:15:50 maybe you want to ignore sparc, fine. doesn't help much 18:16:03 powerpc isn't dead at all, you just don't see it 18:16:22 but ignore powerpc as well 18:16:27 Where is it used except old McIntoshes? 18:16:35 And high-end AIX stations. 18:16:39 Who you callin' old? 18:16:40 lots and lots and lots and lots of embedded stuff 18:16:42 It's just not on the desktop any more 18:16:51 tathi: yeah 18:16:52 --- quit: clog (Connection timed out) 18:16:58 :( 18:17:00 not much, anyway 18:17:04 segher: I haven't met it embedded. 18:17:24 oh, my current target for the cross compiler is powerpc :-) 18:17:25 I meet MIPSes and ARMs. 18:17:40 segher: good ;-) 18:17:41 a 750CL, i.e., the Wii. 18:17:58 Ah, game consoles. 18:18:04 i have tetris running on it ;-) 18:18:42 I'm quite sure I'm not going to buy it any time soon. :) 18:19:02 heh 18:19:25 * PoppaVic pats his Powerbook G4 18:19:25 I admit that they can afford quite a good device fit to my purposes. 18:19:42 But I doubt they will do. 18:20:00 Chinese MIPS is more likely. 18:20:02 Just as an aside, grokking the elf format takes about on average 15 minutes or so. 18:20:03 it's not x86, it's not arm, it's not mips, all of which are a mess. you don't have much choice other than those, as we established. 18:20:25 xulfer: depends what you want to do. try relocations, hehe 18:20:45 What's so bad about relocations? 18:20:58 you have to handle about 200 or 400 _per target_ 18:21:06 they are target-specific 18:21:10 and there are a lot 18:21:39 200 to 400 types of relocations? 18:21:43 you will only see a handful in practice, for simple files, of course. still, they are _per target_ 18:21:45 yes 18:21:47 segher: not very hard to understand 18:22:15 heh. do you really *understand* TLS and PLT and GOT etc.? 18:22:33 many tiny little details _that matter_ 18:22:40 Huh. Are they listed somewhere? I didn't realize there were anywhere near that many. 18:22:54 lemme see, sec 18:23:37 Oh are those the hard concepts? 18:24:21 When I looked at the PPC ABI document back 5 years or so I thought it only mentioned maybe 15 or 20. 18:24:36 I don't understand what's so hard to understand in words "many tiny little details _that matter_". 18:24:59 The whole point is that it isn't "hard concept". 18:25:09 http://pastie.org/685883 18:25:19 k, i exaggerated ;-) 18:25:24 ASau: I see you have trouble spotting sarcasm. 18:26:09 asau: my point is that you can understand it from a bird's eye view, but implementing code that handles it is an altogether different matter 18:26:37 Yes, I know. 18:26:45 this elf.h is way out of date btw 18:27:27 elves hehe.. Too funny 18:28:57 http://pastie.org/685887 18:29:25 poppavic: and the debug format to go with it is called DWARF. 18:29:32 yah 18:29:52 and you need wizards to make them do your bidding 18:29:54 segher: I try hrd to forget it, but of late the compiler likes to leave entire subdir droppings. 18:30:03 erm what? 18:30:37 segher: debuging on osX of late.. Compiler adds an entire debug subdir, since leopard.. No idea why 18:30:49 ..don't care either.. Just more cruft to clean up 18:31:05 i don't use leopard or later. it has nothing to do with GCC, this is apple stuff 18:31:25 may well be.. 18:31:39 it always used to do a Debug/ dir in your xcode projs 18:31:49 I never use Xcode ;-) 18:31:53 i dunno then 18:32:17 Gforth runs over in a termwin tab all the time, another is for gcc and makes and joe, etc ;-) 18:32:23 might be that they do the link-as-you-go without xcode now 18:33:28 well, they no longer support the ppc at all.. You gotta' fight like hell to find Xcode 3.1.3 - last Leopard/ppc Xcode.. It apparently adds clang and llvm, now.. Not sure how to reach it, and I've never used Xcode from day zero. 18:35:34 well, ok.. Day Zero I loaded Xcode deliberately and tried a test - got crosseyed trying to figure out what was happening, and retreated to Makefiles, gcc and friends. 18:36:51 Greetings all - home from the gym. 18:36:56 wb 18:37:36 poppavic: on the bright side, mainline GCC works fine on 10.3 even (i don't go further back than that, that's the first osx i used, before that i stayed with os9 :-) ) 18:37:45 yah 18:37:57 The gods smile on silly C's that work. 18:38:18 what do you mean? it's hard work to make it work! 18:38:40 That's one of the nicest things about osX - it feels like "any other *nix" - and your source tends to port easily. 18:39:04 well, autoconf finally caught up, heh 18:39:09 since a few years 18:39:09 ugh 18:39:15 before that it was hell 18:39:27 I'd love to throttle everyone related to autoshit... I mean really. 18:39:52 and i still have a /usr/local/gnu/bin that i put in my PATH when compiling lots of stuff 18:40:04 Ugliest facet today.. sh, make, m4, - I don't even like to guess what all it entails anymore 18:40:11 most packages that use autoxxxx use it wrong 18:40:16 I know 18:40:27 which is really a failing of autoxxxx itself 18:40:31 segher: I close my eyes and spin prayer-wheels 18:40:38 I recall your love for auto* PoppaVic. It's what I remember most about you. You were pretty vocal about it. :) 18:40:45 not entirely of course, there are a *LOT* of stupid users 18:40:56 I qualify. 18:41:10 Raystm2: still am, just don't care much anymore - it's pretty much too late to change the inertia 18:41:14 would you read the manual when trying to use automake? 18:41:23 if so, you do not qualify. 18:41:31 I never "use" automake. 18:41:42 if something else uses it, I'm trapped. 18:41:45 lol manual? if it doesn't work I download something that does. lol :) 18:42:01 Raystm2: or write something, yeah 18:42:31 Sometimes its faster. 18:42:44 I hope I don't need to write a narrator. Like I could. 18:42:57 "narrator"? 18:43:04 autoxxxx was important a decade ago, when there still were lots of divergent systems in daily use 18:43:23 nowadays, if you support linux and osx you're golden 18:43:30 ya, these movies i'm making, the audience has requested dialog descriptions and I have lispy teeth. 18:43:32 bsds 18:43:42 well, *bsd and cygwin or mingw if you're really stretching it 18:44:02 still, there are a very few tools really "needed" - and all the macros/m4 and stuff.. Just depressing 18:44:10 * Raystm2 broke my mouth on a hotPocket(pizza) years ago and sounds awful. 18:44:35 poppavic: you can write really simple automake things for the average package 18:44:38 Actually, you can support many different platforms without autoconf. 18:44:53 asau: yes, nowadays you can. 18:44:55 You only need to dump shit gnu make. 18:45:04 you're crazy 18:45:19 Oh, really? 18:45:23 segher: I can write a simple makefile, too.. I can even set up to build a test-program to write a config to build whatever.. However, I've pretty much given up coding. 18:45:23 bsd make is soooooo much worse it's not funny 18:45:32 It is soooo much better. 18:45:48 At least we support quite a range of platforms. 18:46:06 Seems like there would be gainful employment for people with those skills. 18:46:11 Starting from BSDs and ending with AIX, Darwin, and Interix. 18:46:13 do I get to place bets on this fight? Are we gonna' see knives? 18:46:22 + QNX. 18:46:51 * segher palms a dagger 18:47:01 BACKSTAB! i win. 18:47:15 I'd tie yer offhands together, but this is more fun. 18:47:24 segher: back-attack +2 18:47:25 heh, too late :-P 18:47:50 gah.. No D&D references - we'd scare folks ;-) 18:47:54 hehe 18:48:10 I just mentioned yesterday about coding dice. 18:48:12 Hargraves Fumble Factors ;-) 18:48:13 the worst thing about lying in a big puddle of your own blood is that you were wearing your best suit 18:48:30 hehe 18:48:33 segher: it's that "oh, shit!" factor 18:48:38 yah 18:48:59 Knives are for cookin' - 12ga sticks to kids ;-> 18:49:05 * Raystm2 googles d&d dice specs 18:49:25 Raystm2: 4sided, 6, 8, 12 and 20 18:49:39 20's are the handiest since sliced bread 18:49:51 if you like D&D, may i recommend http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html 18:50:15 d100 are fun, heh 18:50:34 the real ones, not the two-dice version 18:51:01 segher: cute cartoon ;-) 18:53:38 thx segher. just pulled up and saved for future reading. 18:54:34 I can hear cartman & the gang.. "That Orc killed Kenny! You /bastards!/" 18:55:23 --- join: I440r (n=me@c-69-136-171-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:55:38 haha 18:55:53 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 18:56:00 that reminds me... time to check mrtwig.net 20:20:32 ty for the convenient dice list, Poppa. 20:20:47 sure - I remember most of those. 20:21:04 I just threw mine out about a year ago, trying to reduce all I owned 20:21:36 Raystm2: hah! i found my original Ogre and GEV sets, too ;-) 20:21:44 --- quit: Al2O3 (Connection reset by peer) 20:21:53 * Raystm2 added a 10s 20:22:04 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-75-70-11-191.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:22:19 Raystm2: for a random-generator? 20:22:19 hehe you did? 20:22:44 --- quit: Al2O3 (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:22:47 yeah.. I was about to burn a box of "junk", and managed to salvage those two, and Rivets for the nephew. 20:22:52 Ya. Daughter had the controls here for a bit, but I'm back now and i'm about to code the dice for another colorForth demo. 20:23:29 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-75-70-11-191.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:23:57 doing percentile will do it all ;-) 20:24:01 --- quit: Al2O3 (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:24:45 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-75-70-11-191.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:39:40 that was rediculously easy. That's my favorite kind. 20:40:09 heh 22:01:06 --- join: luptenschteiner (n=User@unaffiliated/probonono) joined #forth 22:13:02 --- quit: probonono (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:43:54 --- part: TR2N left #forth 22:45:19 --- quit: kleinjt ("leaving") 23:17:04 * madgarden is away: aseepin' 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/09.11.05