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08:36:51 Why are you (and flash) trying to utilize long time obsolete systems? 08:36:57 --- quit: foxLaptop ("leaving") 08:37:10 This is plain stupid for new users. 08:37:15 no, I dont use gforth in fact :) 08:37:32 used reva 08:37:44 hi ASau 08:37:50 Reva is mostly non-standard and linux-only system. 08:37:59 AFAIR. 08:38:03 windows and linux 08:38:50 anyway, its help system handy and useful for me 08:38:51 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:39:16 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 08:39:35 long time obsolete systems <----- I am using gforth, is it obsolete too ? ASau 08:39:59 i am flash 08:40:24 What makes it more problematic is that it is essentially one-man project. 08:40:27 with minimalistic goals. 08:40:28 foxes: no. 08:40:36 I see. 08:40:42 You're new here, I don't remember difference between you for now. 08:40:46 Since I haven't communicated enough. 08:41:08 I apologize for possible confusion. 08:41:11 never mind 08:41:27 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:42:08 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 08:42:19 --- nick: foxes -> Flash__ 08:42:37 ASau, your lines..... 08:42:54 try something to change a better line? 08:42:54 hoho 08:43:29 You mean connectivity, yeah. I'm aware of the problem. 08:43:39 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:44:18 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 08:44:21 it's time for bed reading. see you ASau 08:44:50 is that gForth idled since 0.7 ? 08:46:18 gogonkt: there's problem with gforth developers. 08:46:56 They don't understand community processes. 08:47:19 It was damn hard to persuade them to release that 0.7.0. 08:47:45 It took me two years to do all the nagging. 08:47:52 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:47:55 :) 08:47:58 hah 08:48:24 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 08:48:59 Retroforth more portal than gforth I think 08:49:32 and crc away stay here :p 08:49:32 gogonkt: Yes, it is time to make new release. 08:49:35 RetroForth is a bit extreme. 08:49:52 always 08:49:53 All this non-mainstream stuff is there because those 08:49:53 "top-heads" don't grok community building. 08:50:17 They're desinging their standard and don't care of anyone else. 08:50:33 forther lack at community ? 08:50:33 --- join: mathrick (n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk) joined #forth 08:50:42 Basically, yes. 08:51:08 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:51:19 base words need a common stand 08:52:00 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 08:53:09 Those, who could make a community, just switched to non-standard systems, 08:53:10 or were kind of excommunicated like John Doty was. 08:54:44 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:57:18 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 08:58:19 Elizabeth Rather seems to live still in her 70s with her King Haled International Airport. 08:58:38 A&B still live with their UNICODE beliefs. 08:59:09 Others still think that if they have customers still, it's allright. 09:00:26 And almost noone notices that bad implementation and bad publicity can ruin any idea, 09:00:31 even brilliant one. 09:00:55 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:01:12 is that because they focus on Embedded system? 09:01:22 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 09:03:59 maybe forth needs a killer application. :D 09:04:54 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:04:59 like CGI of perl, PUGS of haskell, RoR of ruby, ... 09:05:33 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 09:06:05 go to bed, bye 09:06:22 * impomatic wonders who John Doty was 09:07:21 An engineer with his own Forth-like system with some really good ideas. 09:08:04 Like unifying numbers in single cell, so that you don't have to separate floating point stack. 09:08:30 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:09:10 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 09:09:40 does cold at Mosco now? 09:10:15 Yes, it is pretty cold. 09:10:21 At least, I've caught it :( 09:10:58 As for killer application... 09:11:04 Does Python have any? 09:11:04 how many temp. ? 09:11:08 Or PERL? 09:11:15 I don't know the temperature. 09:11:21 It is just simply cold. 09:11:29 hah 09:12:01 it so far from here, Mosco ~ 09:12:27 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:12:35 frome south china 09:13:22 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 09:13:40 12°C | °F Weather for Russian Federation, Moscow 09:13:54 not very cold :) 09:15:12 It depends on other conditions, e.g. rain and wind. 09:15:41 -20 in my native town is less cold subjectively than -5 in Moscow. 09:16:17 --- quit: yiyus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:16:34 but 12°C is lowest temp. of a year here :( 09:16:43 haha 09:17:08 -20 can kill me 09:17:09 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:17:58 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 09:18:55 --- join: segher (n=segher@84-105-60-153.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 09:19:31 --- quit: segher (Connection reset by peer) 09:19:50 --- join: segher (n=segher@84-105-60-153.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 09:20:00 I got why Russian so strong 09:21:15 "Strong" in which sense? 09:21:21 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:21:47 strong man 09:21:47 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 09:38:12 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:38:54 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 09:40:45 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:43:32 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 09:47:33 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:48:08 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 09:55:49 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:55:53 --- quit: impomatic ("mov.i #1,1") 09:56:16 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 09:56:51 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote closed the connection) 10:01:13 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:02:19 --- join: yiyus (i=12427124@server1.bouncer4you.de) joined #forth 10:03:53 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 10:10:21 --- quit: bjorkintosh ("Leaving") 10:10:22 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:10:46 I thought strength of russians was girya related. 10:10:59 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 10:13:07 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:13:35 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 10:17:20 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:17:47 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 10:26:17 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net) joined 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(Connection reset by peer)) 11:43:29 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 11:48:46 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:49:16 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 11:51:59 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:52:38 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 11:53:32 --- join: Maki (n=Maki@dynamic-78-30-139-176.adsl.eunet.rs) joined #forth 11:55:50 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:56:31 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 12:00:15 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:00:41 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 12:00:47 --- quit: pgas ("/quit") 12:05:42 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:07:21 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 12:12:52 --- quit: aguai (Remote closed the connection) 12:15:41 --- join: crc (n=charlesc@c-68-80-139-0.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:26:18 --- join: benny99 (n=benny@f055107193.adsl.alicedsl.de) joined #forth 12:36:05 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:36:56 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 12:37:47 what's probably the best idea to 'alias' a word ? 12:40:42 what do u mean 12:40:58 best reason to do it? 12:41:23 usually i consider aliasing a bad idea unless there IS a good reason to do it 12:41:42 for example in isforth the word "is" is an alias for the word "!>" 12:41:51 ' foo is blah 12:41:59 i use IS when im modifying a deferred word 12:42:04 5 !> myconstant 12:42:20 i use !> (STORE TO) when im modifying a constant (oopts) or a "var" 12:42:28 ans forths call "var" a "value" 12:42:40 some assemblers alias [si+bx] to [bx+si] 12:42:44 but i consider that bad form 12:43:07 I simply want a different 'syntax' 12:43:14 i avoid aliasing if i can but i use it when it can help with the readability of the sources 12:43:32 give me an example 12:43:56 aliasing as a means of obfuscating? 12:44:47 : test {{ dup * }} ; \ that code for example is supposed to leave a xt on the stack that squares a number 12:45:11 erm what forth do you use? 12:45:15 :noname dup * ; 12:45:18 5 test execute . \ result: 25 12:45:23 I want to use ans forth 12:45:31 GeDaMo, yep, but I want those '{{' ;) 12:45:55 I440r, i use the gforth interpreter/compiler 12:45:59 benny99: that'll be tricky to do 12:46:04 portably anyway 12:46:13 benny i can see how you could make the {{ word an IF type word and }} a then type word 12:46:29 but instead of compilinga conditional branch it compiles an unconditional branch 12:46:39 and leaves the address of the following xt on the stack 12:47:22 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:48:00 {{ would need to be an immediate word that compiles something like ({{) which would do the branching and leave the XT address 12:48:05 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 12:48:15 I440r, ah, I'll try to do that 12:48:20 i cant see a use for it tho :) 12:48:22 What about ahead? 12:48:25 I440r, thanks :) 12:48:32 GeDaMo, ? 12:48:42 benny do you know how IF/ELSE/THEN work or how BEGIN etc etc work? 12:48:45 Isn't ahead an unconditional forward branch? 12:49:13 never used it. it must be an ans thing or something 12:49:25 :P 12:49:27 and it wouldnt solve his having to leave the xt that it was branching around 12:49:36 he would need to write his own primatives 12:50:11 ({{) would probably need to be coded too 12:50:18 return stack ... ? 12:51:24 --- quit: f[x] (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 12:59:28 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:59:30 benny99: try this: 12:59:31 : {{ postpone ahead over 4 + ; immediate 12:59:31 : }} >r postpone exit postpone then r> postpone literal ; immediate 12:59:31 : invoke >r ; 12:59:31 : foo {{ 1 . }} ; 12:59:31 foo invoke 13:00:25 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 13:01:10 that works on gforth 0.7.0 on my os x box 13:02:05 also on my gforth 0.7.0 linux-box 13:02:05 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:02:15 good 13:02:17 why is }} doing literal 13:02:40 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 13:02:45 I440r: to make the address part of the definition of the word it's used in 13:02:46 crc, bigforth doesn't like it 13:02:55 benny99: it's not portable 13:03:32 there's no way I know of to do this without dependency on the internals of a particular forth 13:04:18 crc. errr u lost me lol 13:04:52 --- quit: Maki ("Leaving") 13:05:13 I440r: {{ leaves the address of the code after the ahead on the stack 13:05:14 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:05:20 crc, I can't believe that, hm 13:05:20 no. i understand. the }} is leaving the address of {{ cell+ 13:05:23 i think thats wrong 13:05:30 }} compiles it as a literal, so it can be called 13:05:36 i think {{ should leave the address at run time. and then branch to }} 13:05:46 I440r: it works for gforth 13:05:46 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 13:06:22 I440r: I just adapted some stuff I had lying around 13:06:24 * benny99 is doing that for fun btw. 13:06:25 i mean i think the design is wrong. {{ should do two things. 1: leave address of its own xt cell+ on the stack 13:06:35 and then branch to where }} is 13:06:47 }} should compile an exit and nothing else 13:07:03 {{ should branch past the exit like in your example tho 13:07:13 this works 13:07:19 not everywhere 13:07:37 I440r: then code a better one :) 13:07:41 sure wouldnt work in isforth :) 13:07:53 but then i dont use abominations like postpone :P~ 13:09:17 --- join: Maki (n=Maki@dynamic-78-30-139-176.adsl.eunet.rs) joined #forth 13:09:35 isforth isn't ANS compliant, so I wouldn't expect this to work 13:09:55 isforth is isforth compliant 13:09:56 --- quit: jauaor () 13:10:04 what about this start -- : alias: create ... ; -- alias: :noname {{ 13:11:56 : {{ here 4+ literal compile branch >mark ; immediate : }} compile exit >resolve ; immediate 13:13:08 erm make that here cell+ for you people who dont know your cell sizes :P 13:13:32 benny99: I don't think ANS actually allows for embedding definitions within other words 13:13:47 Except with does> 13:14:09 crc and WHY would anyone EVEr actually WANT to code like that? 13:14:10 does> is a special case 13:14:14 im mean. seriously 13:14:16 I know :P 13:14:25 ans makes a HUGE mess of things 99% of the time 13:14:38 lets make things w84659824659824659827 times more fucked up and complicated than they EVER need to ber 13:14:43 because it LOOKS clever! 13:14:44 I440r: it works well enough in Factor and my Toka language 13:14:46 ^^ 13:14:55 neither of which are proper forths though 13:15:10 what works in factor my definition for {{ and }} ? 13:15:23 if gforth has >mark and >resolve and compile it should work there too 13:15:24 I didn't test yours 13:16:09 I440r, so the standard is not 'welcome' hm ? 13:16:17 not with me 13:16:31 i think ans forth is a MAJORLY complex solution to a very simple problem 13:16:42 im probably the single most anti ans person you will ever meet :) 13:16:57 gforth doesn't have compile 13:16:59 ans forth is a cammel. i.e. a horse designed by a committee 13:17:51 changing compile to postpone still gives an error at ; in the fist defintion 13:18:44 what error 13:19:23 I had to add a postpone before literal 13:19:23 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:19:44 literal is an immediate word ? 13:19:49 oopts 13:19:52 your right 13:19:52 yup 13:19:58 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 13:20:02 i had to think about that for a second 13:20:17 fixing that causes failure when }} is invoked 13:20:18 so my definition would have a "compile/postpone literal" 13:20:19 I don't think camels were designed by a committee. 13:20:31 : foo {{ 1 . }} ; 13:20:31 :1: Address alignment exception 13:20:31 : foo {{ 1 . >>>}}<<< ; 13:20:31 Backtrace: 13:20:31 $30BD10 ! 13:20:31 $334900 >resolve 13:20:52 then >mark and >resolve dont work right 13:20:56 in ans forth 13:20:59 crc, it has compile 13:21:03 compile, 13:21:53 benny99: slightly different. postpone replaced the old compile and [compile] words in ANS 13:22:23 I think I have a way of doing it portably 13:22:29 yes. ans forth once fixed somethign that was not broken 13:22:31 But it's a bit if a faff :P 13:22:37 share it :) 13:22:56 Store the bit between the {{ }} as a string 13:23:00 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:23:18 Then evaluate ":noname {{string}}" 13:23:26 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 13:23:51 i cannot even think of any single scenario where i would use evaluate 13:24:00 other than to evaluate user input 13:24:09 : alias: create ' , does> @ execute ; \ does not work for ; 13:24:10 That's the last place I would use it 13:24:31 You want to be careful about trusting the users :P 13:24:33 why postpone evaluation of a string till run time when evaluating it and compiling it at COMPILE TIME would work 13:24:33 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:24:39 GeDaMo, hm, but that feels somehow ugly hm ? :-[ 13:24:50 benny99: I reckon any solution will be ugly 13:24:51 GeDaMo, you can seal your users into a specific vocab 13:25:07 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 13:25:40 forget about the alias idea 13:25:43 why for example would you plant a string in your soruces and immediately evaluate it instead of just compiling that string at COMPILE time 13:26:12 evaluate is a pretty much useless means of over complicating things 13:26:13 I440r, no idea 13:26:16 --- quit: gogonkt (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 13:26:29 retro lacks evaluate 13:26:40 ive never seen an instance of evaluate being used where i would have used it 13:26:52 the only place you can evaluate textual data is if it's stored in a block 13:26:58 : blah "forth code goes here" evaluate ; 13:27:05 instead oif : blah forth code goes here ; 13:27:11 splane me why ANYONE would ever chose the former 13:27:28 Immediate words? 13:27:35 nope 13:27:41 not a valid reason 13:27:54 clever but lazy 13:27:55 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:28:20 --- join: gogonkt (n=info@218.13.55.168) joined #forth 13:28:43 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 13:29:18 http://code.google.com/p/v-language/ -- hm 13:34:27 I give up 13:34:33 :) 13:34:57 this appears to be so simple 13:35:01 I can't believe it 13:36:11 What you want is essentially :noname dup * ; constant test 13:37:15 GeDaMo, not quite I guess 13:37:41 I want to emulate those v structures for example 13:38:21 You could do this : {{ :noname ; : }} postpone ; constant ; immediate {{ dup * }} test 13:39:15 : if ( xt-if xt-else boolean -- * ) true? drop execute else swap drop execute then ; 13:39:18 : {{ 0 postpone literal postpone if here ; immediate 13:39:18 : }} >r postpone exit postpone then r> postpone literal ; immediate 13:39:39 crc why not just postpone false 13:39:45 false if .... then 13:39:48 I440r: that would work too 13:39:56 its still kludgy :P 13:40:34 : {{ postpone false postpone if here ; immediate 13:40:50 this should be pretty portable though 13:41:38 the later version works :) 13:42:40 then: 13:42:40 : invoke >r ; 13:42:41 : if if drop invoke else nip invoke then ; 13:42:49 : foo {{ 1 . }} {{ 2 . }} true if ; 13:42:49 : bar {{ 1 . }} {{ 2 . }} false if ; 13:44:02 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:44:51 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 13:46:34 looks cool 13:47:07 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:49:44 to execute the code between {{ and }} you cant use execute 13:49:47 they are XT's 13:49:50 you have to use >r 13:50:02 I440r: that's why I had the ": invoke >r ;" 13:50:02 or goto 13:50:35 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 13:50:36 gforth executes :[ 13:50:59 * crc notes that in retro, any address can be used with execute 13:51:30 then again, retro isn't an ANS system 13:52:21 *caugh* btw. 13:53:10 : {{ here 16 + [compile] literal compile branch >mark ; immediate : }} compile exit >resolve ; immediate 13:53:43 works in isforth 13:54:03 : foo ." test" cr {{ 1 2 3 }} ; ok 13:54:07 foo test 13:54:08 ok 13:54:18 .s 134557724 ok 13:54:22 >r ok 13:54:24 .s 3 2 1 13:54:25 works perfectly using pfe, gforth but not bigforth so far 13:54:31 retro has [[ and ]] for this 13:54:41 * crc has no copy of bigforth, so can't test there :( 13:54:46 i cant see any reason FOR this however :) 13:55:02 I440r, it looks cool ? 13:55:10 heh 13:55:18 ok i cant see any VALID reason for this :P 13:55:22 or evaluate either 13:55:26 I guess there are 13:55:30 or optimizing compilers :) 13:55:34 or ans forth.. . . . etc etc 13:55:44 }:) 13:56:01 * crc has an optimizer for retro; but it's an optional module that has to be manually loaded 13:56:15 and partial ans support, again optional 13:56:20 some day i might make one for isforth just for th FUN of it 13:56:43 I440r: I did finally drop the nested colon defintions :) 13:57:59 that was actually fun to implement 13:58:10 but not particularly useful :) 13:58:21 this {{ is FUN but useless too 13:58:25 I could add it back, but I don't use it anymore 13:58:35 I440r, I don't know, maybe it's not 13:58:50 benny it has ONE majorly GOOD aspect. 13:58:54 it helps you learn forth 13:59:11 doing this kind of brain twisting is good 14:01:43 :[ I did nothing -- but I guess I learned something anyway :) 14:04:25 (I did nothing is wrong -- I ... 'created' nothing) 14:04:41 (nothing useable) 14:09:12 --- quit: Maki ("Leaving") 14:11:49 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:12:39 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 14:15:28 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:16:17 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 14:18:44 --- quit: GeDaMo ("Leaving.") 14:22:10 I quit, thanks for your help :) 14:22:18 any time :) 14:22:28 --- quit: benny99 ("Leaving") 14:26:18 Hm. 14:26:25 Time to write Lisp in Forth. %] 14:26:56 raystm2 is trying to do something like that 14:27:31 Well... I'm pretty sure that I can do SECD machine and this is almost all what I need. 14:36:45 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote closed the connection) 14:53:38 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:56:22 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 15:01:58 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:02:27 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 15:13:46 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:14:35 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 15:15:01 morning :) 15:15:18 hi 15:16:16 ：D 15:19:47 I wrote another version of connect 2 strings into a new one , http://pastebin.com/d65082a7c . But I still cant find a way to FREE the memory which I ALLOCATED. 15:20:27 how is heap manamgement implemented? 15:22:03 well? 15:23:09 what's a heap management? 15:23:23 mameory management 15:24:12 pls take five minutes to answer 15:24:18 pls dont i mean 15:25:27 I just allocate new things , and leave it right here for later use. Never FREE them. 15:25:39 google memory management 15:27:54 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:28:44 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 15:29:42 foxes: you should free the memory 15:30:19 he dont know how mem is used in forth 15:31:25 crc, I know I should free them ,but ... 15:31:49 I lost the a-addr of newStr, and can never free it . Ofcause I can save a- 15:31:50 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:31:50 addr of newStr into a variable, but how about 10 strings to connect? 15:31:50 I've tried on array: put each newStr's a-addr into a array. but array 15:31:50 confuse me , I cant get what I saved when I fetch them back. 15:32:18 newStr I made it through : allocate n 15:32:19 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 15:33:25 the process I thought: 15:33:26 str1 str2 -- newStr 15:33:26 15:33:26 copy str1 to TempStr ( creat TempStr 100 chars allot ) 15:33:26 append str2 to TempStr 15:33:26 add a newStr ( allocate n ) 15:33:26 foxes: you allocate characters with "100 chars allocate". 15:33:27 copy TempStr to newStr 15:33:30 This works good when I connect once.But when I connect 3 strings with : 15:33:30 not with "100 allocate". 15:33:31 ( str1 str2 str3 ) 15:33:33 As Chinese, you should know better that 1 character may take more than 1 octet. 15:33:35 connect-2-string ( str1 newStr ) 15:33:36 connect-2-string ( anotherNewStr ) 15:33:37 I lost the a-addr of newStr, and can never free it . Ofcause I can save a- 15:33:39 addr of newStr into a variable, but how about 10 strings to connect? 15:34:11 yes, Chinese need 3 octet of each character 15:34:12 Idiom for using "allocate" is this: 15:34:18 100 chars allocate throw 15:34:42 that's a terrible alogrithm 15:34:42 ugh why use chars 15:34:46 This handles the case when you don't have enough memory. 15:34:47 100 allocate 15:34:55 I440r: 100 _chars_ allocate 15:35:09 Because 1 chars is _3_ for Chinese. 15:35:09 no. why say 100 1* allocate 15:35:09 ASau: in isforth, a char = 1 byte 15:35:15 oh 15:35:15 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:35:18 bleh 15:35:25 lol 15:35:41 ... 15:35:51 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 15:35:56 just add a simple throw after my definition? ASau 15:36:52 crc: "byte" is _always_ 1 char. 15:36:59 It is definition of byte. 15:37:03 foxes: read about exceptions. 15:37:18 cyrano du bergerac 15:37:26 that's the name i wanted the other day 15:37:54 foxes: you don't need "connect-len". 15:38:09 It is "2 pick over +" 15:38:29 Common name for "2 pick" is "pluck", though it is rather rare. 15:38:36 dup 3 pick + ?? 15:38:46 sometimes dup is cheaper than over 15:39:22 Sometimes "over" has the same cost, and "pluck" is simply hardcoded. 15:39:38 dup is always cheaper than over 15:39:47 OK. 15:39:54 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:40:29 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 15:41:35 I suggest you rethink the design. 15:41:46 You copy string to destination and leave the tail of destination. 15:41:47 ASau: I thought that a byte was the smallest addressable memory unit, whereas chars could be multiple bytes in size 15:41:54 crc: wrong. 15:41:57 * foxes reading the definition of PICK 15:42:05 crc that def also 15:42:08 oop 15:42:13 crc thats my definition too 15:42:15 crc: byte is the smallest memory unit to hold _any_ character. 15:42:48 ASau char != character 15:42:57 it's not an abreviatoin 15:43:01 The smallest addressable memory unit is called "memory quant" or "address(able) unit". 15:43:06 pff 15:43:09 since when? 15:43:13 we're old skrool 15:43:14 Since at least 1982. 15:43:18 bs! 15:43:20 lol 15:43:24 ASau, Forth always trying to let me re-thing :) 15:43:43 And "byte" has that definition since 60s. 15:43:49 Even before Forth was invented. 15:43:50 that we agree on 15:43:55 the rest is fiction :) 15:44:42 ASau pls dont change the meaning of standard field words? 15:44:44 Byte was sometimes 6-bit then. 15:44:48 it' just confuses us. 15:44:57 that's a Holerith character 15:45:03 Just learn standard definitions. 15:45:05 * crc thought that byte = smallest addressable unit *or* 8-bit sequence (generally) 15:45:05 dont use that either :) 15:45:10 ASau: source please? 15:45:17 --- join: tathi (n=josh@dsl-216-227-91-166.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 15:45:22 S/360 manual? 15:45:32 or as was usd above, a octet 15:45:34 Old OS courses? 15:45:46 8-bit sequence is called "octet". 15:46:02 and it was used properly by guest; you're just stirring the pot 15:46:33 byte, int, long == 8,16, 32 bits each 15:46:34 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:46:46 --- quit: nighty_ ("leaving") 15:46:50 (forth) cell is native size of non-speeshul insn 15:47:04 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 15:47:15 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 15:47:15 * crc avoids all this by only addressing 32-bit values in retro 15:47:21 yea 15:47:32 * Quiznos gets a cluebat to talk to ASau 15:47:34 :) 15:48:11 How do you process textual data? 15:48:20 rune by rune 15:48:54 So, is your byte 32-bit? 15:48:56 that's plan9's typedef for utf8 date 15:48:57 no 15:49:09 How do you encode textual data? 15:49:14 ASau: my chars are 32-bit in length 15:49:17 but utf8 character data can be packed i thinked forthly 15:49:19 ok 15:49:30 my vm can only deal with 32-bit sized values when reading/writing 15:49:35 the only prob iw with 6byte runes 15:49:36 crc: in other words, your byte is 32-bit wide. 15:49:40 no 15:49:41 no 15:49:46 a byte ==8 always 15:49:46 crc: yes. 15:49:51 a character can be longer 15:49:53 * crc doesn't term in a byte 15:49:57 notice the different words used 15:49:57 byte is character length _always_. 15:49:58 --- quit: nighty_ (Client Quit) 15:50:03 ngaro only deals in *cells* 15:50:03 no 15:50:05 Here, it is 32-bit. 15:50:06 Yes. 15:50:19 Read pre-PDP-11 definition. 15:50:19 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 15:50:24 look, we all know C; that is the std lexicon 15:50:35 pdp isnt relevent to this discussion! 15:50:40 Look, even C defines byte as character length. 15:50:44 no 15:50:50 Yes, consult the standard. 15:50:58 "char" may be 32-bit. 15:51:02 look, my prob with your words is that you're using the wrong words to make a point 15:51:06 noever 15:51:09 noever 15:51:11 oh well 15:51:15 never 15:51:17 yea 15:51:21 RTFM. 15:51:30 a 'char' is a type and a length 15:51:37 it's 8 bits. 15:51:38 You can find it in FAQ. 15:51:40 it maybe signed 15:51:48 but it's not longer 15:52:07 http://home.att.net/~jackklein/c/inttypes.html 15:52:09 talkin about contemporary machines 15:52:15 RTFM 15:52:15 i know c already 15:52:19 and whereof i write :) 15:52:51 The first Q is exactly yours. 15:53:01 on what? 15:53:10 On your misbelief. 15:53:23 what am i wrong on? 15:53:28 allegedly wrong on? :) 15:53:32 That byte is 8-bit wide. 15:53:45 go on... 15:53:54 Like I said above, RTFM. 15:54:21 You seem to live in your 8-bit-only part of Universe. 15:54:23 if yo uwant to correct me, that's fine but i'm not going to surf 15:54:25 The world is larger. 15:54:28 i dont live in 8bits 15:54:33 You do. 15:54:42 Otherwise you wouldn't claim such stupid thing. 15:54:52 I give up. 15:55:20 I'm not going to educate you further. 15:55:25 is, byte == char == octet? 15:55:35 byte == char != octet. 15:55:42 why? 15:55:46 RTFFAQ 15:55:52 Or standard. 15:55:55 answer the question 15:56:39 Because standards and colloquial use outside 8-bit only world gives definition to byte. 15:56:46 See above what the definition is. 15:57:23 Quiznos: the C standard (for instance) defines 'byte' as an "addressable unit of data storage large enough to hold any member of the basic character 15:57:26 set of the execution environment 15:57:40 i.e. a char 15:57:47 tathi and to all modern machines, that equates to one octet 15:57:50 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-088-068-199-227.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 15:57:52 Haha. 15:58:13 Quiznos: generally, yeah, but it's certainly possible to have an implementation where it's bigger than an octet. 15:58:28 yes but those machines have generally fallen out of use 15:58:28 I'm not clear whether such implementations actually exist or not... 15:58:45 This is in #forth with some Forth CPUs being 21-bit :D 15:59:35 ASau: sure, but those CPUs generally don't use the terminology 'byte' 15:59:44 AFAIK they usually just call it a 'word' or 'cell'. 15:59:51 And some other using 9-bit-multiple memory units. 16:00:07 Ah. I don't know that one. 16:01:44 When I read the book <>, it need build a 64-bit one for ms handling. 16:03:03 BTW, you may check "Jargon file" as well. 16:03:15 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:03:42 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 16:07:43 Heh. I don't know which version of the Jargon file you're looking at. The current one says "on modern architectures this is invariably 8 bits." and also that other "usages are now obsolete". 16:08:52 E.g. 4.0.0, 24 JUL 1996. 16:09:18 VERSION 2.9.11, 01 JAN 1993 16:09:28 --- quit: Al2O3 () 16:12:11 BTW, you may check "Jargon file" as well. <---- Did you say to me ? 16:12:19 No. 16:12:42 That's about our "discussion" what "byte" really means. 16:13:27 nod 16:14:43 You mean, I should re-think the connect-str with Exception handle? 16:14:53 No. 16:14:58 The design in whole. 16:15:10 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:15:20 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-117-075.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 16:15:40 For now you're following Algol way. 16:15:49 But this is counterproductive in Forth. 16:16:10 What are you going to do when you need to concatenate more strings? 16:16:19 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@h43.243.40.69.dynamic.ip.windstream.net) joined #forth 16:18:59 I made a Translate program which just translate English into Chinese. 16:19:00 by human aid. 16:19:00 for example, human will decide which phrase should be the first place and which will be last . 16:19:05 --- quit: Snoopy_1711 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:19:11 For instance, I've found next strategy very useful: 16:19:15 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-107-051.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 16:19:17 a book of mine . in English, but in Chinese: mine a book. 16:19:34 I take the whole area at PAD. 16:19:58 Remember starting pointer and byte count. 16:20:34 Then I put strings at start shifting pointer and decreasing byte count to point to trailing space. 16:21:12 I though ,but not figure out. because , if I met the : a book OF mine, I just do a [ a book ] [ mine ] swap . [ ] will connect all the strings in it into one newString . 16:21:28 actually, swap should be 2swap 16:22:13 It is hard to follow your English. :( 16:22:28 I know, sorry about this.. 16:22:28 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:23:25 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 16:23:28 I know, sorry about this. And the same with your English too :) 16:24:49 the idea is : a book of Tom. in English, will be Tom's a book . in Chinese order. 16:25:49 I marked for forth to understand with: [ a book ] [ Tom ] fo 16:25:56 fo = 2swap 16:26:21 [ ] will connect all the string in it into one newString 16:26:59 [ a book ] = abook 16:27:04 [ Tom ] = Tom 16:27:39 abook Tom fo = abook Tom 2swap = Tom abook 16:28:31 Tom abook will be connected again = Tomabook <--- what I want. 16:29:01 If I use PAD, in my opinion, I cant change the order of Strings. 16:29:28 Why? 16:29:54 It is a kind of "ladder"(?) memory allocator. 16:30:44 You allocate from the bottom more and more, then you move 16:30:45 your result down and free almost everything. 16:31:40 I am not sure about PAD 16:32:04 Ladder memory allocator, cant follow you. 16:32:09 This scheme works with dynamic memory even better. 16:32:22 Because you have RESIZE and this does almost everything for you. 16:32:48 Nod, I haven't use RESIZE yet 16:32:53 Cf. Scheme implementations (Chicken? Scheme48? I don't remember exactly.) 16:33:34 * foxes googling Scheme implementations 16:35:31 http://www.cs.unm.edu/~williams/cs491/three-imp.pdf Does this help? 16:35:54 No idea. 16:36:03 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:36:06 You don't need to dig into details. 16:36:23 You just need to understand quit a bit how dynamic memory allocation works. 16:36:31 nod 16:37:12 * foxes googling how dynamic memory allocation works 16:45:21 out for breakfast and shopping :) see u 16:47:32 bai 16:47:32 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:48:03 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 16:51:55 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:53:16 --- nick: Quiznos -> DonQuixote 16:54:42 --- join: ASau (n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 17:01:47 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@210.188.173.245) joined #forth 17:03:22 --- quit: nighty_ (Client Quit) 17:04:33 --- join: nighty_ 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