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06:48:00 <gogonkt> I440r: Mark,good evening
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16:38:55 <flash__> morning
16:39:26 <flash__> I wannt to use socket.fs under gforth. Are their some example with it?
16:39:49 <flash__> I have no idea about how to use this file. 
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16:41:55 <ASau> flash__: UTSL.
16:42:06 <ASau> I did like that several years ago.
16:42:29 <ASau> Since you come after me, you have more chances that you don't need to fix it.
16:42:50 <flash__> Should I search the keywords with utsl and socket.fs in google?
16:43:05 <ASau> "Use the source, Luke"
16:43:16 <flash__> I am standing on your shoulder :)
16:44:37 <flash__> I see that source, but I cant understand it well, what should I do next?
16:45:29 <flash__> practice forth more then go back to learn your code?
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16:46:13 <ASau> It isn't my code.
16:46:27 <ASau> But I had to fix it several years ago.
16:46:40 <ASau> And did that.
16:46:59 <ASau> It is late night here, I'm off for a sleep.
16:47:11 <flash__> thank you, good night
16:48:14 <tathi> which gforth version?
16:50:52 <flash__> gforth 0.6.2
16:51:03 <tathi> Ah.  I'm looking at the wrong one, then.
16:52:19 <tathi> Let's see.  That one doesn't do much for you.  Mostly just bindings for some of the standard unix socket calls.
16:52:23 <tathi> Those should be pretty clear
16:53:21 <tathi> open-socket takes a hostname (addr u) and a port number, and attempts to open a TCP connection to it.
16:54:23 <tathi> It returns a standard file-id, so you can use the usual file read/write words on it
16:54:42 <flash__> nod
16:55:06 <tathi> That's about it, I guess.
16:55:10 <tathi> What are you trying to do?
16:55:28 <flash__> gforth (0.7.0+ds1-5) ...  updated
16:55:45 <flash__> i want to write a mud server with gforth at last
16:55:49 <tathi> That one has a little more stuff in it.
16:56:02 <tathi> Ah.
16:56:34 <flash__> but first, I follow the simples in <<MUD Game Programming>> by Ron Penton 
16:57:02 <flash__> so, I want to make a simple in chapter 2
16:57:17 <gogonkt> is that spf souce code compacte with gforth?
16:57:35 <tathi> gogonkt: huh?
16:57:42 <gogonkt> spf-forth
16:57:59 <tathi> Yeah, I know what spf is
16:58:02 <gogonkt> tathi: hi tathi 
16:58:32 <tathi> hi
16:58:50 <tathi> I don't know exactly what source code you're talking about.
16:59:22 <gogonkt> forth-script => cgi.f etc.
17:00:09 <tathi> flash__: I'm not familiar with the book, but I think I'd focus on game logic first, and worry about the socket/server stuff later.
17:00:15 <tathi> But that's just my two cents.
17:01:46 <flash__> I see. I am just follow the book step by step, and my background of socket/server almost Zero. so...
17:03:37 <gogonkt> are there forth/tk like perl/tk ?
17:04:10 <flash__> http://search.barnesandnoble.com/MUD-Game-Programming/Ron-Penton/e/9781592000906 this book
17:04:18 <flash__> gogonkt, try on it, you will see
17:04:30 <gogonkt> I want use gui in linux, what sould I do?
17:04:50 <Quiznos> red a book
17:04:52 <Quiznos> read
17:04:54 <tathi> flash__: yeah, I found which book you meant, but I haven't read it.  So saying you're trying to follow chapter 2 doesn't tell me anything. :)
17:05:00 <Quiznos> read google
17:05:23 <flash__> tathi, nod
17:05:36 <tathi> gogonkt: there probably aren't existing bindings for anything, no.  At least not complete ones.
17:05:51 <I440r> yea i think what tathi said is right. i would make the game only write to stdout to begin with
17:05:51 <gogonkt> :(
17:06:12 <tathi> If you know how to use any gui libraries from other languages, it's relatively straightforward to write bindings for gforth though.
17:06:27 <tathi> I think that sort of thing is even documented in 0.7.0 :)
17:06:30 <gogonkt> I440r: mark, even you bind one?
17:06:38 <I440r> ?
17:06:44 <gogonkt> gui
17:06:55 <tathi> gogonkt: I440r was responding to the other conversation
17:07:00 <I440r> i dont support X in isforth yet. tis low down on the todo
17:07:25 <gogonkt> oh
17:07:47 <I440r> if i could find a reference for the X protocol in BNF it would take me no time at all to create a X interface
17:08:03 <I440r> but the x protocol documentation looks to me like it was specifically designed to NOT be understandable
17:09:02 <tathi> What is it with Forthers all having poor reading comprehension? :P
17:09:19 <flash__> http://forth.pastebin.ca/1575910  that C2 in book , it just create a simple TCP server 
17:09:28 <I440r> i been looking at assemblers again, trying to work things out. i think writing an assembler i can use is beyond me
17:09:48 <I440r> tathi have you looked at the X protocol spec?
17:10:21 <gogonkt> I looking at isForth example
17:10:30 <flash__>  NOT be understandable <--- :D
17:11:23 <I440r> gogonkt, example of what?
17:11:23 <flash__> socket.fs v0.7.0 looks lots of information. reading...
17:11:38 <I440r> oh. isforths sockets stuff needs work
17:11:39 <tathi> I440r: Yeah, I've seen it.  I'm just giving you a hard time.
17:11:45 <I440r> kk lol
17:11:50 <I440r> thats allowed :P
17:11:58 <gogonkt> :)
17:12:12 <I440r> before i finish the sockets stuff or a BUNCH of other things i want to have an assembler
17:12:46 <I440r> but none of the existing ones are acceptable to me and im not able to write one that is
17:12:53 <I440r> or convert an existing one so that it is
17:12:58 <gogonkt> any RC. or release of isforth?
17:13:32 <I440r> the only thing different with the version of isforth i have and the one thats on the web site is ive worked on the memory manager some
17:13:54 <I440r> and im not happy with IT either because thers a lot in there that should be CODED :/
17:14:05 <I440r> the lack of an assembler is a major stumbling block right now
17:14:43 <I440r> tathi could probably write the assembler I would like to have but i think i alienated him with my rabid anti ANS forth opinions :P
17:15:08 <I440r> plus he doesnt have time to code any more :)
17:15:17 <tathi> more the latter
17:15:29 <tathi> And I've got other projects I'm more interested in.
17:15:48 <tathi> Maybe one of these years...
17:16:08 <tathi> flash__: yeah, 0.7.0 has all the pieces you need
17:16:21 <I440r> if i could just win the lottery I would have ron oliver write it for me... i would have to pay him tho :)
17:16:37 <tathi> Who's he?
17:16:54 <I440r> ron is someone taht forth inc has been trying to hire for years. he does alot of work for them
17:17:05 <I440r> the machine that is currently hosting isforth.com belongs to him
17:17:16 <I440r> it USED to be co-located at forth inc but its been moved
17:17:48 <flash__> tathi, thank you
17:17:54 <tathi> Ah.  So not this guy, then? http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0646987/  :)
17:18:35 <I440r> probably not :)
17:20:59 <gogonkt> is that you? http://www.flickr.com/photos/tathi/
17:21:16 <tathi> flash__: you want (more or less) create-server (but probably replace 4 CELLS ERASE with the proper IP address), listen, accept-socket, and read-socket.
17:21:39 <tathi> gogonkt: loading...but I doubt it
17:21:59 <tathi> Nope.  Definitely not.
17:22:14 <tathi> Actually I don't know that I have any photos online.
17:22:18 <gogonkt> where is you blog
17:22:31 <gogonkt> XDDDD
17:23:25 <tathi> heh
17:26:29 <flash__> tathi, really cool , I just looked that create-server
17:27:05 <tathi> 4 CELLS ERASE might actually be the right thing
17:27:28 <tathi> I suspect INADDR_ANY is probably zero
17:28:07 <flash__> I've got no idea about that, but soon or later, I will meet these problems
17:28:23 <flash__> I use the default first and trying on it.
17:28:24 <tathi> yup :)
17:28:36 <flash__> tarbo, thx again :)
17:28:54 <tathi> sure
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19:18:11 <gogonkt> http://linux.org.tw/node/595 #Topic: KsanaGTK : Building GTK Application with Forth
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19:30:56 <flash__> : read-socket ( socket c-addr maxlen -- c-addr u )
19:31:05 <flash__> what's a c-addr?
19:31:20 <crc> character address
19:31:43 <crc> c-addr u is a pointer to a sting, and the length of the string (generally)
19:32:16 <gogonkt> crc: project/retro-gtk move to where?
19:32:29 <flash__> when I read-socket, how can I make a c-addr for  receiving a msg from client?
19:34:00 <crc> gogonkt: http://retroforth.org/contrib/
19:34:31 <crc> look near the bottom
19:34:41 <crc> flash__: create NAME 100 chars allot
19:34:55 <crc> would create a c-addr (NAME) with space allocated for 100 characters
19:34:56 <gogonkt> nice :)
19:35:12 <crc> gogonkt: you'll need a 9.x release of retro to use them
19:35:12 <flash__> thx!!
19:35:18 <crc> flash__:  no problem
19:35:37 <gogonkt> 9.x,got it
19:36:07 <crc> http://s3.retroforth.org/download/index.html
19:36:13 <crc> grab 9.2.10
19:36:31 <crc> which was the last of the 9.x releases; it should support the gtk stuff properly
19:37:47 <gogonkt> github repos, :)
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19:38:36 <crc> disclaimer: I can't offer much more support in using it; I don't have a linux box with gtk installed at present :(
19:39:53 <gogonkt> take my own rest :)
19:44:50 <gogonkt> risk*
19:46:29 <crc> ok
20:33:11 <gogonkt> git & make, make need ~/retro but it not found, ?_?
20:41:39 <gogonkt> oh,tarball work,seem because MakeFile problem
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21:37:51 <flash__> msg 128 read-socket   ok
21:37:51 <flash__> .s <3> 5 140083107165856 0     then why I can't show it back with TYPE?
21:41:46 <I440r> flash__, type expects two parameters. an address and a length
21:42:07 <I440r> which is what that looks like maybe
21:42:15 <I440r> however
21:42:25 <I440r> im going to assume top of stack is the 0 so try 
21:42:29 <I440r>  drop swap type
21:42:53 <flash__> 5 is not a length
21:43:05 <I440r> then wheres the length
21:43:14 <segher> the 0 maybe
21:43:25 <I440r> whats the 5
21:43:28 <flash__> is a backup number from  create-server, a lsocket.
21:43:54 <flash__> : create-server  ( port# -- lsocket )
21:44:05 <I440r> if the 0 is the length then thats why you cant type the data
21:44:28 <flash__> my read-socket gets NOTHING?
21:44:47 <I440r> ok. look at read-socket.  what is its stack comment
21:44:57 <I440r> i.e. what values does it return
21:45:14 <I440r> maybe the 0 is the error and the next item is a pointer to a counted string
21:45:19 <flash__> : read-socket ( socket c-addr maxlen -- c-addr u )
21:45:22 <I440r> if so you need to do drop count type
21:45:32 <I440r> yea 0 is the length
21:45:41 <I440r> your buffer is empty
21:45:56 <flash__> that means , I miss to send msg to server.
21:46:10 <I440r> erm. if im remembering what c-addr is erm i HATE the ans forth stack comments
21:46:25 <I440r> maybe the U which is an unsigned number is NOT the count. maybe it is the error
21:46:33 <I440r> you cant tell from those bullshit stack comments
21:46:40 <I440r> try drop count type
21:46:47 <flash__> ok
21:47:09 <I440r> tho i dobut thats right
21:47:15 <flash__> .s <3> 5 140083107165856 0  ok
21:47:15 <flash__> drop count type  ok
21:47:15 <flash__> .s <1> 5  ok
21:47:48 <I440r> if you want to see some sockets code written in forth (crappy ones) check out isforths irc bot 
21:48:01 <I440r> that code is going to undergo a major update as soon as i get an assembler
21:48:03 <I440r> i.e. never
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21:48:49 <ASau> No, "u" is length.
21:49:04 <I440r> thers an irc bot written in forth
21:49:04 <ASau> You can tell it exactly from those "bullshit comments".
21:49:16 <I440r> and its socket code crappy as it is... WORKS
21:49:28 <I440r> no. all it tells me is that its an unsigned number
21:49:28 <flash__> I want to build a mud server with forth, gforth looks nice with linux and xp. so, you mean, the socket.fs of gforth is not good ?
21:49:45 <I440r> it tells me nothing about the purpose of the value
21:49:54 <ASau> If it were error code, I'd written otherwise.
21:49:58 <I440r> flash writing a mud server was one of the reasons i wrote isforth
21:50:18 <I440r> it was mine and futhin (no longer hangs in here) plan to write a MUD in forth
21:50:39 <I440r> but i halted development on isforth till what i had was already documented (in progress) and
21:50:41 <flash__> shake hands :)
21:50:50 <I440r> i had an assembler so i could write a decent sockets extension etc
21:51:04 <I440r> personally i dont LIKE gforth. but im not about to call it bad :P
21:51:41 <flash__> :D
21:52:07 <flash__> should I switch to iForth, or stay with gForth?
21:52:25 <I440r> isforth is for linux tho. if you are developing for windows you could try win324th tho i dont know if its got sockets
21:52:44 <ASau> isforth is worse as it doesn't work neither on BSDs nor in Cygwin.
21:52:48 <I440r> you cannot go wrong with iforth, marcel hendrix is damned good but... i cant compare it to gforth
21:52:50 <I440r> ive used neither
21:52:58 <ASau> And that's what I used.
21:53:08 <ASau> when worked with socket code in consideration.
21:53:12 <I440r> well. it COULD work in bsd but it would never work in cygwin
21:53:22 <ASau> It did.
21:53:28 <I440r> what did?
21:53:44 <I440r> isforth used to work in fbsd. thats not working now and i dont know why
21:53:51 <ASau> gforth sockets code worked in cygwin.
21:53:54 <I440r> not able to get a working bsd install in a vm
21:54:05 <I440r> oh. gforth has a windows version i thought
21:54:12 <flash__> it has.
21:54:28 <I440r> isforth doesnt try to be a jack of all operating systems
21:54:50 <I440r> i dont want the kludge fixit code to make it work with both windows AND linux sockets which are VASTLY different
21:54:51 <flash__> but as a server, running on windows is just a backup plan. It runs  mainly  on linux 
21:55:36 <I440r> well. if you go with pure x86 linux isforth would work
21:55:43 <I440r> if you learned MY quirks :)
21:55:51 <flash__> quirks?
21:56:09 <I440r> www.isforth.com select doc link then read the items under info
21:56:17 <flash__> ok
21:56:20 <I440r> im about as ANTI ans forth as you can get
21:56:28 <I440r> which alienates me wtih some people
21:57:33 <flash__> a not-in-ans-box man ?
21:57:46 <I440r> ?
21:57:57 <I440r> i would burn the ans box if i could :P
21:58:19 <I440r> one thing i can guarantee with isforth though
21:58:27 <I440r> you could have PERSONAL 1:1 help from the authro lol
21:58:29 <I440r> author
21:58:38 <I440r> you probably wont get MUCH of that from the gforth team
21:58:44 <flash__> :D cool~
21:58:46 <I440r> tho... you could probably get some :P
21:59:21 <flash__> reading...
21:59:25 <flash__> the docs
22:00:03 <I440r> if you go over the sources documentation i would suggest having a copy of the soruce file its describing open in parallel
22:01:36 <ASau> You can get as much from gforth team.
22:01:46 <ASau> Just not on this channel.
22:02:32 <flash__> nod
22:02:33 <I440r> well to tell the truth im not a huge fan of mailing lists or online forums either. when people need help on an issue they usually need it "NOW!!!!!!" not "when someone gets round to answering" heh
22:02:35 <I440r> tho...
22:02:40 <I440r> even HERE is subject tot hat
22:02:41 <I440r> to that
22:02:52 <I440r> cant guarantee the helper person is at the keyboard
22:03:21 <flash__> that's really matter
22:03:35 <ASau> and contrary to isforth, gforth is standard and has more users than just authors.
22:04:08 <I440r> i consider the FORMER to be a con not a pro
22:04:33 <I440r> the ans forth standard does not describe the forth language but a language of the same name
22:04:38 <I440r>   -- Chuck Moore --
22:04:44 <I440r> i quote that a lot :)
22:05:08 <I440r> heres another pro in favor of isforth
22:05:11 <I440r> its WAY simpler
22:05:21 <ASau> Who uses isforth except you?
22:05:24 <I440r> gforths a majorly complex system
22:05:41 <I440r> dont know but when i do a new release i get a whole slew of downloads
22:05:44 <ASau> It isn't harder to use.
22:06:17 <I440r> no but if the core of the forth system your "using" is so complex YOU dont uderstand it one iota then i say it should not be used
22:06:37 <flash__> nod
22:06:43 <ASau> Can anonymous lurkers help you in trouble?
22:06:43 <I440r> and being written in C, attempting to follow the ENTIRE ans forth standard, work on every OS under the sun ALL that the same time...
22:06:48 <I440r> makes gforth useless
22:06:55 <flash__> maybe I should try on isForth
22:07:06 <I440r> you can try isforth. 
22:07:18 <I440r> only YOU can decide if you like it or not
22:07:19 <ASau> On contrary this is way more useful than marginal linux-only forth.
22:07:51 <I440r> asau no.  the entire reason for developing isforth is so taht new forth people can actually understand the system they are trying to learn
22:08:02 <I440r> if you do not understand the forth system you CANNOT UNDERSTAND FORTH
22:08:04 <I440r> period
22:08:10 <flash__> I start setting up isForth on my debian. Any question if I've got, I will ask here :)
22:08:18 <ASau> Common fallacy.
22:08:20 <I440r> im here :)
22:08:28 <flash__> :)
22:08:32 <I440r> asau if you want to think its a fallacy 
22:08:44 <ASau> No, it is common fallacy.
22:08:47 <I440r> complex systems make for complex solutions to even SIMPLE problems
22:08:48 <ASau> It isn't forth-specific.
22:09:00 <I440r> ans forth is a mountain of a solution to a molehill problem already
22:09:15 <flash__> gforth is good for beginner, but not friendly to a developer, I thought
22:09:22 <I440r> any forth (or other system) thats THAT complex will not lend itself to user UNDERSTANDING
22:09:37 <ASau> flash__: you're wrong.
22:10:03 <flash__> ASau, ok, please...
22:10:04 <gogonkt> discu which is better not a important thing ...
22:12:37 <I440r> flash i cannot say isforth is better for your purposes than gforth would be. i can say isforth is infinitely SIMPLER for you to understand
22:12:52 <I440r> ive had numerous NON forth coders, NON assembler coders tell me that they UNDERSTAND my code
22:13:12 <I440r> thats an absolute PRIME directive for my code. YOU have to be able to understand its purpose
22:13:21 <flash__>  SIMPLER for you to understand <--- this important
22:14:04 <I440r> flash as stated http://www.isforth.com/docs.php?t=format
22:14:17 <I440r> not only is it important it is THE single most important thing for ANY code
22:14:52 <ASau> How much applications do you have in isforth?
22:15:09 <ASau> "Do you have web server?" (gavino style)
22:15:11 <I440r> asau ooohhhh yes tahts a good metric for how good isforth is
22:15:19 <ASau> Yes!
22:15:23 <ASau> That's the ultimate metric.
22:15:29 <I440r> im starting to think you might BE gavino :P
22:15:59 <flash__> I440r, ok
22:15:59 <ASau> If you don't have applications, it is just a toy.
22:17:43 <gogonkt>  ~@_@~
22:18:51 <ASau> Alright, you remind me my recent co-worker, who is so fond
22:18:51 <ASau> of Scheme, that has written his own interpreter but nothing
22:18:51 <ASau> practical in it.
22:19:38 <ASau> From that any sane person, who doesn't worship computers,
22:19:38 <ASau> concludes that Scheme is good to write interpreters for.
22:19:46 <ASau> And nothing more.
22:20:48 --- join: mark4 (n=me@c-69-136-171-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth
22:20:56 <mark4> bah power fail
22:21:42 <mark4> asau thats like saying vhs is better than beta because thers more vhs tapes
22:22:01 <mark4> and its not. beta was always better than vhs
22:22:25 <ASau> You don't have that style competition in Forth area.
22:22:41 <mark4> not sure i understand your argument
22:22:54 <mark4> what competition?
22:23:23 --- quit: I440r (Nick collision from services.)
22:23:30 --- nick: mark4 -> I440r
22:23:37 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r
22:23:40 <ASau> How many $$$ did ANS Forth commitee receive from porno industry?
22:23:51 <I440r> eh?
22:24:02 <I440r> im posative im not following your argument now
22:24:22 <ASau> So, you don't understand why VHS won.
22:24:55 <ASau> "Internet is for porn."
22:25:02 <ASau> Same applies to Forth.
22:25:09 <ASau> You gotta to provide applications.
22:25:27 <I440r> VHS won because it was always one step ahead of Beta in terms of what people wanted the most, which at the time was playing time. At first tapes played only an hour, VHS came out with 2 hour capability and then 4 hour capability ahead of Beta.
22:25:31 <ASau> If you don't, language stays at zero ground, where Forth is.
22:25:43 <I440r> i dont read anyting in ther e aobut pr0n companies paying vhs
22:26:32 <I440r> i wrote an application for itron using isforth. they were developing a FHSS mesh network of power meters
22:27:04 <I440r> i wrote an appl8ication to control 16 meters on a test rack using RF wiring and a multi IO serial port to sniff the protocol
22:27:15 <ASau> And?
22:27:21 <I440r> plus a 16 port seaio io board to control each meter
22:27:45 <I440r> i ported the seaio API from C to Forth which you can see in the isforth sources
22:27:55 <I440r> point is. you will never see that application 
22:28:10 <ASau> C has all BSD, GNU, KDE, GNOME and other hurds behind.
22:28:20 <I440r> forth inc has thousands of applications writtein for their forths but you cannot use that as a measure of their success
22:28:25 <flash__> just do it.
22:28:30 <ASau> It started at the same time as Forth.
22:28:30 <flash__> dont talk more
22:28:44 <ASau> Python started later and see where it is.
22:28:59 <I440r> asau lol i asked my father why forth didnt take off like c did he gave me this scenario
22:29:20 <I440r> lets say... you go out and buy microsoft C version 1.0 and i go out and buy microsoft forth version 1.0
22:29:34 <I440r> every year thers upgrades and updates some of which you have to pay for
22:29:51 <I440r> me? i find a deficiency i fix it
22:29:54 <I440r> i find a bug i fix it
22:30:00 <I440r> i pay m$ nothing for those fixes
22:30:22 <I440r> you on the other hand will spend thousands of dollars over the years you update and upgrade your microsoft forth
22:30:40 <ASau> How much did one pay for BSD tapes?
22:30:41 <I440r> so. microsoft NOT being stupid when it comes to marketing push C not forth
22:31:12 <I440r> as a matter of a fact bsd IS A COMMERCIAL OS
22:31:20 <I440r> we also have FREE bsd
22:31:22 <I440r> and others
22:31:58 <ASau> All commercial BSDs are extinct.
22:32:21 <ASau> Juniper, Force10 and other BSD-based companies use NetBSD and FreeBSD.
22:32:56 <flash__> I440r, if i want to make my simple server/client socket test running. Which file should I refer to or use it right now?
22:32:57 <ASau> Thus free BSDs succeded, commercial ones failed.
22:33:04 --- quit: [Forth] (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:33:38 <I440r> flash i didnt create a client server example in my code but if you know how to create a client server application in C you could create one in isforth easilly
22:33:56 <I440r> the sockets source file is very small and the irc bot shows you how to do the client side
22:34:02 <ASau> So, you refer to C in your argument.
22:34:17 <I440r> C didnt win because it cost money
22:34:25 <I440r> forth didnt lose because it cost little or no money
22:34:45 <ASau> Sure, C won because it is easier to program in compared to Forth.
22:35:06 <ASau> That's why C has BSD, GNU and whatever else code base.
22:35:07 <I440r> forth lost because microsoft and all the other purveyors of development systems would find it very difficult to sell fixes and upgrades to a system YOU could fix and upgrade yourself
22:35:33 <I440r> but this conversation is going nowhere. 
22:36:10 <ASau> You had free C compilers back then.
22:36:30 <ASau> Before UNIX wars.
22:36:37 <I440r> M A R K E T I N G <----
22:36:40 <ASau> Still, C was more popular.
22:36:53 <segher> C won on unix systems because unix _is_ C
22:36:55 <I440r> thats why C wins. thats why WINDOWS wins over all the free operating systems
22:37:14 <ASau> segher: and unix systems won because they are simple.
22:37:20 <ASau> Still way more complex than Forth.
22:37:23 <segher> because they worked
22:37:59 <ASau> So, you mean that Forth didn't work. :)
22:38:00 <I440r> yes and another reason i like to state is that MOST people taking a look at FORTH for the first time go screamin for mamma
22:38:21 <flash__> ok, reading that irc.f
22:38:26 <I440r> the fact taht forth is simpler is not a win. the initial perception is that its soooo different its scary
22:39:05 <I440r> yea irc.f has the socket read code in it
22:39:56 <I440r> actually io.f has the socket read / write code
22:40:25 <I440r> theres no resolver tho yet. 
22:40:27 <I440r> :/
22:41:33 <ASau> So, you have to do manual name resolution?
22:41:56 <I440r> i was writing the resolver but i keep hitting the "no assembler" block
22:42:05 <I440r> so much of my sockets code would be WAY simpler in assembler
22:42:17 <I440r> and i was getting depressed about not having it
22:42:26 <I440r> so i basically didnt do ANY work on or with isforth for 3 years
22:43:16 <ASau> So you didn't developed system for 3 years.
22:43:34 <I440r> btw. the porn industry didnt pay anyone... sony refused to let the porn industry use their betamax. 
22:44:04 <I440r> and sony wouldnt let anyone else produce betamax machines
22:44:27 <I440r> also. betamax was higher quality video but that equated to "less recording time"
22:44:46 <I440r> the "people" wanted MORE recording time even if it meant a loss in quality
22:45:19 <flash__> I printed the irc.f, bot.f and io.f  out for a close look
22:45:27 <I440r> yea i like to do that too
22:46:00 <I440r> the code is a bit messy because i need to finish the sockets and resolver code. but i wanted an assembler 
22:46:08 <flash__> you commented them well :)
22:46:21 <I440r> but thers not much there and if you understand things like 1 /string etc etc you wont have any problems
22:46:37 <gogonkt> go go go,stop talking and work
22:46:40 <I440r> im not sure if ans forth has a /string
22:46:52 <segher> it does
22:47:07 <I440r> this is irc. the entire reason for its existence is so people can chitchat in ubber idleness and NOT work :P
22:47:26 <gogonkt> hoho
22:47:26 <I440r> the only thing ive found thats more of a productivity killer is WoW
22:47:38 <segher> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/dpans-html/dpans17.htm#17.6.1.0245
22:47:44 <gogonkt> IM is a evil
22:48:08 <gogonkt> IRC too
22:49:00 <I440r> well i just lost 4 fucking hours of work to a fucking power outage
22:49:12 <flash__> print out multi-paper better than multi-screen :_)
22:49:37 <I440r> i agree. you can see more context on a sheets of paper than you can on a screen
22:49:54 <flash__> nod
22:50:28 <gogonkt> isForth is better at print side :)
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22:53:09 <I440r> my sources are commented. they are written in a language tahts A LOT easier to read than C ever will be
22:53:42 <I440r> they dont have if/and/but loops nested to the umpteenth level with case statements within case statements within multi level if statements inside for loops
22:53:52 <I440r> all uncommented because the code is obvious right?
22:55:02 <ASau> I440r: indirectly this was the reasone why they didn't pay for betamax.
22:56:02 <segher> i never indent loops and conditionals in forth code, i just write them run-on.  if you cannot read that, well, time to factor :-P
22:58:03 <ASau> And I indent them to fit 16x64 :D
22:58:30 <ASau> Even when it doesn't fit it.
22:58:30 <I440r> asau im going to make a car but im going to make a rule that i dont sell them to black people. this will be why black people dont pay me so they can use my car
22:58:44 <I440r> erm... im thinking your argument is dead myself
22:59:12 <I440r> the pr0n industry didnt use betamax or PAY sony so they could because SONY said "NO"
22:59:14 <ASau> Sure, that's why you lose to another person, who makes
22:59:14 <ASau> similar car but don't impose limitations.
22:59:27 <I440r> they didnt PAY to use vhs either
22:59:36 <I440r> thats why vhs lost
22:59:39 <I440r> thats why FORTH lost
22:59:42 <ASau> They just used it.
22:59:43 <I440r> MARKETING.
22:59:49 <I440r> thank you for winning my argument for me
23:00:14 <ASau> Nothing with marketing
23:00:45 <gogonkt> isforth[26294]: segfault at b80e7000 ip 080486b0 sp bfee65b4 error 4 in isforth[8048000+12000]
23:01:03 <I440r> gogonkt, do you have heap randomization enabled?
23:01:19 <ASau> I440r: does isforth break ASLR?
23:01:34 <I440r> no. aslr breaks isforth
23:01:39 <gogonkt> heap randomization?
23:01:44 <I440r> when i can metacompile i can fix that
23:01:49 <I440r> i can kludge fix it now
23:02:01 <I440r> echo 1 >/proc/sys/kernel/randomize_va_space 
23:02:07 <gogonkt> isforth-1.22b %
23:02:12 <I440r> type that then run isforth and tell me if you segfault still
23:02:17 <ASau> I440r: if application doesn't survive ASLR, it goes into trash can.
23:02:29 <I440r> ASau, fine
23:03:19 <ASau> You should present strong reasons why user should turn security features off.
23:03:28 <I440r> they didnt
23:03:33 <I440r> they turned them down not off
23:03:51 <gogonkt> still zsh: segmentation fault  ~/repos/isforth-1.22b/isforth
23:04:01 <I440r> and its something im going to fucking fix so fuck off k? ty
23:04:18 <I440r> ok gogonkt erm this isnt a heap randomization failure then
23:04:23 <I440r> tell me what you did when it faulted
23:04:32 <I440r> was that when you ran ./isforth or after you compiled some code?
23:04:50 <gogonkt> tar xf, ./isforth and fauld
23:04:52 <ASau> I'm off.
23:04:56 --- quit: ASau ("off")
23:05:06 <I440r> ok 
23:05:12 <I440r> what distro are you using?
23:05:18 <gogonkt> ## echo 1 >/proc/sys/kernel/randomize_va_space
23:05:21 <gogonkt> gentoo
23:05:25 <I440r> 32 bit?
23:05:33 <gogonkt> 32 bit
23:05:44 <I440r> i use gentoo too. why do you use csh instead of bash?
23:05:44 <I440r> zsh i mean
23:05:55 <gogonkt> zsh useful
23:05:57 <I440r> can you switch to basha sec and see if its a problem with zsh?
23:06:05 <I440r> if it is ill install zsh and get tot he bottom of it
23:06:12 <I440r> but it will be in my terminfo stuff im guessing
23:06:19 <gogonkt> bash fauld too
23:06:30 <I440r> ok. can you execute ./kernel
23:06:37 <gogonkt> yes
23:06:49 <gogonkt> kernel.com work for me
23:06:57 <I440r> ok lets find out which extension ISNT working for you
23:07:22 <I440r> edit src/isforth.f and go to the bottom
23:07:26 <gogonkt> I make and extened,then ./isforth, and fauld too
23:07:39 <I440r> yes were going to change what ./extend does
23:07:43 <I440r> does ./extend work?
23:08:00 <I440r> if you rm ./isforth and do ./extend do you get a new ./isforth file created?
23:08:24 --- join: f[x] (n=user@34-37-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net) joined #forth
23:08:38 <gogonkt> yes
23:08:50 <I440r> ok. but when you run ./isforth it fails
23:08:55 <I440r> edit src/isforth.f
23:09:03 <I440r> this file is the extension load file
23:09:14 <I440r> go to the bottom and comment out everything in the debugger section
23:09:35 <gogonkt> aha
23:09:40 <I440r> dont comment out the "forth definitions" at the bottom or the "fsave isforth"
23:09:51 <I440r> but comment out the floads in the debuger section
23:10:08 <I440r> then ./extend again
23:10:14 <I440r> and tell me if ./isforth works again
23:10:30 <gogonkt>  fload src/debug/debug.f         \ - debugger                                                                                    fload src/debug/bwindow.f       \   user interface display                                                                      fload src/debug/see.f           \   decompiler                                                                                 
23:10:36 <gogonkt>  floa src/debug/bk/eys.f         \   moving around without execution                                                             fload src/debug/main.f          \   the beef
23:10:48 <I440r> yes comment out all those lines
23:11:44 <I440r> comment out those 5 lines. save the file. then do ./extend
23:12:26 <gogonkt> comment out that,still fault
23:12:32 <I440r> ok
23:12:47 <I440r> now commet out everything in the section above the debug section
23:12:53 <I440r> from words.f to tail.f
23:12:55 <I440r> all of it
23:13:11 <I440r> were eliminating things.
23:13:33 <I440r> oh. erm
23:13:37 <I440r> what terminal do you use?
23:13:46 <I440r> are you in X or in the linux term?
23:14:11 <I440r> and are you using anything like screen?
23:15:21 <gogonkt> work
23:15:27 <I440r> ?
23:15:31 <I440r> it works ?
23:15:35 <gogonkt> comment out terminfo and 
23:15:43 <gogonkt> sockets
23:15:45 <I440r> ok what terminal do you use?
23:15:52 <gogonkt> urxvt
23:15:57 <I440r> ok let me install that
23:16:04 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@LRouen-152-83-15-79.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth
23:16:44 <I440r> but im guessing urxvt's terminfo file is incomplete (ALL terminfo files are incomplete) and it probably has an entry missing that isforth assumes exists
23:16:52 <I440r> erm. whats the ebuild for urxvt?
23:17:19 <I440r> put all the stuff you commented out back in and try run isforth in the linux terminal. just to make sure
23:17:21 <gogonkt> rxvt-unicode
23:17:33 <I440r> oh!!!!!!!!!
23:17:42 <I440r> UNICODE lol. maybe i dont support unicode :/
23:17:46 <I440r> that might be the problem
23:17:54 <gogonkt> x11-terms/rxvt-unicode
23:18:39 <I440r> do you have the iso14755 use flag set?
23:18:55 <I440r> i dont know what that is but if you have it set it might make a difference
23:18:55 <gogonkt> no
23:18:57 <I440r> kk
23:19:03 <I440r> its emerging now
23:19:10 <gogonkt> )(perl truetype xterm-color -afterimage.....
23:19:51 <I440r> ok. i ran isforth inside this terminal just fine
23:19:53 <I440r> hrm
23:20:01 <gogonkt> % wgetpaste ~/.Xresources
23:20:02 <gogonkt> Your paste can be seen here: http://dpaste.com/97084/
23:20:35 --- quit: DrunkTomato ()
23:20:36 <I440r> are you running urxvt or urxvtc ?
23:20:54 <gogonkt> urxvtc
23:20:54 <I440r> because i cant run the urxvtc because i dont have a unicode daemon running
23:21:08 <I440r> yea. that might be the issue. im not sure how to handle this
23:21:10 <gogonkt> urxvtd first
23:21:38 <gogonkt> trying in other xterm
23:21:46 <I440r> erm. ok... that doesnt come back it just sits there heh
23:22:21 <I440r> i ran urxvtd &
23:22:22 <gogonkt> lilyterm work :)
23:22:25 <I440r> then urxvtc
23:22:33 <I440r> then ran isforth in that no problem
23:22:38 <gogonkt> vte term
23:22:41 <I440r> but i still think this is probably a unicode thing
23:22:46 <I440r> i tend to use eterm myself
23:23:42 <I440r> there are some terms isforth doesnt work well in (read at all :)
23:23:51 <I440r> like any term running screen
23:23:52 <gogonkt> urxvt& and not work for me
23:24:05 <I440r> screen takes over the $TERM and its terminfo is MAJORLY BROKEN
23:24:25 <I440r> i ran urxvtd & to get the daemon running
23:24:33 <I440r> then i ran urxvtc 
23:24:41 <I440r> then i ran isforth inside that with no problems
23:25:11 <I440r> i would say put all the things you commented out back in :)
23:25:22 <I440r> see if isforth still works for you in lilyterm
23:26:55 <gogonkt> comment out \ terminfo handling etc, and "% ./extend
23:26:57 <gogonkt> mv: cannot stat `isforth': No such file or directory"
23:27:11 <gogonkt> only comment out
23:27:35 <I440r> do this
23:27:39 <I440r> cp isforth-old isforth
23:28:21 <I440r> then try ./extend
23:28:21 <I440r> i should change taht cp to not be a critical fail point heh
23:28:37 <gogonkt> and if isforth exit, and commnet out that,it work
23:28:48 <I440r> ya
23:28:52 <gogonkt> I kno
23:28:54 <gogonkt> :)
23:29:11 <I440r> ok. so you restored all the things you removed in src/isforth.f yes?
23:30:55 <gogonkt> but  only comment out terminfo session, and cant genranate isforth execute file
23:31:23 <I440r> put it all back in. see if it works
23:31:35 <I440r> if you put it ALL back in does it still fail?
23:32:07 <gogonkt> yes
23:32:19 <gogonkt> I had do that before
23:35:11 <gogonkt> trying comment out less
23:35:32 <I440r> err i said put it ALL back in
23:35:46 <I440r> lol
23:35:50 <I440r> i thought you HAD
23:37:29 <gogonkt> I never remove that . ???
23:37:50 <I440r> no. i think were not understanding each other yere
23:38:04 <I440r> i had you remove the debug section and then i had you remove some other stuff
23:38:09 <I440r> put it ALL back in
23:38:19 <gogonkt> ok
23:38:21 <I440r> everything you commented out should be back in now. when you have done that
23:38:26 <I440r> do ./extend 
23:38:36 <I440r> and see if ./isforth works in your lilyterm
23:39:10 <gogonkt> lilyterm work
23:39:46 <gogonkt> lily work fine
23:41:39 <gogonkt> xterm work too
23:50:06 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
23:56:13 <gogonkt> I440r: start urxvt with emty config file, isforth work
23:56:21 <I440r> aha
23:56:33 <I440r> nice debug :)
23:57:22 <gogonkt> you can try my conifg fiel, 'xrdb ~/.gogonkt_Xresouces;urxvt'
23:57:57 <gogonkt> mine  http://dpaste.com/97084/
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/09.09.22