00:00:00 --- log: started forth/09.09.20 00:00:09 let he that hath no sword sell every freeking thing he owns right down to the cloathes off his back so that he might buy one 00:00:17 heh 00:00:23 id that a pseudo-quot? 00:00:28 Quiznos, if i try kill you. and i succeed TWO people commited murder 00:00:30 me by my actions 00:00:34 nods 00:00:40 YOU by your inactions 00:00:47 Quiznos: I have no problems with GMO what so ever. 00:00:50 it could be seen that way 00:00:56 schme but it's not food anymore. 00:01:04 gmo corn is not food 00:01:11 it's not natural. 00:01:21 Quiznos: Sure it is. modifying genes does not necessarily change the nutritional value of it. 00:01:24 heh.. natural. 00:01:25 if i try to kill yo and you defend yourself and i die. then YOU have killed someone but I have comitted murder 00:01:27 That's funny. 00:01:34 i am guilty for my death but you are not 00:01:34 The kinds of people that first came here were industialists and those people brought God here. The Elite doesn't need God and the poor can't find God, but the totally Elite created middle class is well controlled with Fire and brimstone messages that never lead to revolt. 00:01:38 I440r yep 00:02:02 brb coffee 00:02:11 i carry a gun. i will always carrya gun. if my government takes my gun away ill get another 00:02:14 Good idea me coffee too. :) 00:02:17 Excellent idea with coffee. 00:02:17 i live by GODS law before i live by mans 00:02:32 Also I hope I did not offend you guys by mocking your belief in all this. (: 00:02:41 even a mass murderer should be allowed to defend his life against someon who has no authority to take it 00:03:00 God only has the one law -- Short version -- like Doctors, Do no harm. The Golden Rule, Do unto others... 00:03:07 I440r: That's quite interesting there with living by gods law before mans law. Islam has it the other way around. Kinda funny. 00:03:07 schme, you cannot offend me with your opinon 00:03:56 I'm bothered by swedish gun laws. I live in a high crime city. Quite a bit of gang warfare etc. 00:04:10 If someone breaks into my house I'm pretty much allowed to ask him to wait while I call the police. 00:04:14 schme I don't believe in any of this beyond the statement that it is a phenominal thought experiment and I come across it in the US quite often. 00:04:21 schme, which is satans influence on islam. the arabs are all sons of abraham. they are all decended of ishmail 00:04:34 but im probably spelling that wrong cuz im under the affluence of incahol! 00:04:48 But I don't want to give any one reason to think I think they are wrong because I don't know. 00:05:27 Raystm2: I tend to disbelieve things that go against things like oh I dunno.. the fossil record etc. :) 00:05:36 schme if i lived there i would prefer to stand before a jury to defend myself than be carried in a coffin to my grave 00:05:51 I440r: Yes. 00:05:59 well we don't really have a jury, but yeah. 00:06:00 Raystm2, NEVER be afraid to express your opinion 00:06:01 See, alcohol, firearms, tobacco. Some how that is an agency in the US. or was. And it was Big tobacco that owned and were the politiions and the rest was used to control some of the population. 00:06:13 rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, or how it goes. 00:06:17 if its wrong someone might have the brains to explain to you WHY you are wrong. 00:06:28 if you have any brains you will learn the truth 00:06:35 thanks Mark :) 00:06:36 i sometimes have problems with this 00:06:47 im too opinionated and ANGRY DAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!! 00:06:48 lol 00:06:55 im working on it 00:06:56 schme :) 00:06:58 well said. 00:07:07 a fool is quick to anger. the bible says this in SOOOOO many places 00:07:16 also. 00:07:20 hehe :) 00:07:22 i will defend TO THE DEATH if need be 00:07:23 I440r: That is another thing I enjoy about the USoA. People are not afraid to speak their opinions, and everyone is allowed to do so.. regardless of how fucked up it is. Not quite so in sweden. certain opinions get.. hmm.. dunno the word. well you get the idea. 00:07:31 your RIGHT to hear MY OPINION! 00:07:50 :) great point! 00:08:08 a wise russian ones said that everyoine has freedom of speach 00:08:20 the difference is that in america you have freedom AFTER speach 00:08:21 schme really? Do people um.... disappear? 00:08:46 Raystm2: nono. they just get heckled by media nonstop until they wish they did disappear. 00:09:12 lol they could try that with me. i wont be pushed around by my government 00:09:18 maybe shot. but not pushed around! 00:09:28 It's not the government doing it. It's society as a whole. 00:09:31 when i moved to arizona i went to get a carry permit 00:09:32 You have freedom to be hauled into a court system against your will and pre-judged as to your societal worrtyness before you are either castaway or cast into financial ruin. 00:09:38 to get this you need to take an 8 hour course 00:09:59 i went to the class and looked at the forms and saw places where it wanted me to put my social security number 00:10:09 i told the instructor i would NOT be filling out those places 00:10:12 schme no pun intended. Thank God for that. At least it's defenceable. There are libel laws. 00:10:24 he told me he would not be signing off on my forms 00:10:28 i got up and left 00:10:30 That I don't understand though. What's the big deal with social security numbers? 00:10:46 i found another class. took it. took the papers home and fille4d them out. all but the SSN 00:11:04 i then contcted the arizona department of public safty 00:11:20 In US one needs to licence all behavior. good or bad. 00:11:30 and said im going to be sending in my carry permit app with no ssn. they said they would deny the app 00:11:40 Marriage, gun permit... don't know why I put those together... 00:11:42 You can't even rent a movie here without your social security number. It is how the store keeps track of who has rented the movies. 00:11:47 Business licence car... 00:11:54 indeed 00:12:15 * schme does not quite see the big deal with filling it in. 00:12:16 i told them that THAT would be in direct violation of the 1975 privacy act that stats that if a form did not reqire an SSN prior to 1.1.75 it was disqualified from requiring it NOW. 00:12:53 as arizona did not enact a CCW till 1994 they were disqualified from requiring any SSN on ANY forms related to the CCW 00:13:01 When you licence in the US you give the right to the Gov to regulate you. It's okay NOT to licence because no one can force you to contract, not even the Gov, tho most people would say "everybody knows you have too". 00:13:08 i told them if they denied my permit application i would sue 00:13:43 i got an email 2 weeks alter from "renee s wilson" supivisor in charge of the arizona dps handbun licencing division 00:14:18 If they deny you then you are legally in dispute and can continue your just practice until judged by your peers in court. You don't need to sue. They will if they catch you. 00:14:38 it said that the state of arizona would no longer be requiring any SSn on its CCW applicaiton forms and that as stocks of the current form are depleated they would be replaced with this field removed 00:15:06 thats good. 00:15:08 i have my arizona CCW now 00:15:18 thats good. too 00:15:21 i also have an indiana CCW because ive moved to indiana 00:15:49 point is. if your government tries to push you around and you know ITS game. you can beat it 00:15:50 Thats good tutoo I mean to also. :) 00:16:01 my father always said that you cannot beat city hall 00:16:20 ive seen my mother go head to head with city hall AND WIN too many times to believe that 00:16:52 Not when They call in the national guard. That china man that stands up before tanks in Tienemin (sp) square doesn't make appearances. 00:17:32 well heres the thing 00:17:45 You see, the current gov will not be revolted against. Not for many years now. 00:18:04 no. im not advocating a revolt in THAT way 00:18:06 You can make changes to the system but the system remains. 00:18:12 the system has not failed outright 00:18:19 and we ARE winning this battle slowly 00:18:30 But should it be necessary, I mean, we have the guns but not the gumption. 00:18:44 mmm, law; there is no law that applies to me because i am NOT a 14th amendment-defined PERSON. 00:18:49 right now the way to beat the oppositiojn is to vote them morons out of office 00:19:12 to be replaced with new model morons. 00:19:22 Quiznos, the ONLY laws that you SHOULD follow are GODS laws 00:19:29 and because of the constitutions enacted during the 1960s, i am also disenfranchised. 00:19:33 I440r yep 00:19:35 the consitution does not bestow rights upon you 00:19:42 i know 00:19:42 it simply states what rights you have 00:19:46 no 00:19:53 delete the entire consitution and it does not remove those rights 00:19:57 not even 00:20:09 "secure rights"; guarantee them. protect them 00:20:12 I agree, there is need for beuracracy, tedium, gets you thru the day, people handleing things for you so you don't have to. so you can do something else but when it restricts you so much ... /me didn't get coffee. Bye :) 00:20:15 but govt fails 00:20:20 http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php <-- VERY interesting animation :) 00:20:39 Raystm2 you leaving? 00:20:50 all goveernments will fail 00:20:54 ahve failed 00:20:57 already 00:21:02 in the end there will be only ONE government 00:21:03 GODS 00:21:05 there are 60million statutes and one true law. the law of life. :) just coffee. :) 00:21:15 ok 00:22:04 --- join: pgas (n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/pgas) joined #forth 00:22:06 love god with all thy heart and soul. love thy neighbor as thyself 00:22:14 and there you have 100% of gods laws 00:22:34 follow THAT law and ignore all others and you cannot go wrong 00:22:50 every bill voted upon by a multi-dept oathed legislature is invalid due to improper house procedure and thus void 00:23:08 Quiznos, well no. not EVERY 00:23:08 legislator 00:23:11 EVERY. 00:23:13 just 99.99999999999999% 00:23:22 if one lawyer votes for a bill; the bill is dead. 00:23:36 the law of avarages dictates that they HAVE to get some laws right SOMETIMES lol 00:23:37 thus, there is no law "on the books" 00:23:43 nop 00:23:53 I didn't know about the proceedural problem. 00:24:12 the only perfect system is gods system. mans system will always be flawed because man is flawed 00:24:19 the flaws are a non issue 00:24:20 when a lawyer joins the legislature, his vote is always void bc of conflict of interest 00:24:27 only bc no one objects. 00:24:30 render unto ceasar that which is ceasars 00:24:33 why? 00:24:39 when a lawyer joins the legislature, his vote is always void bc of conflict of interest 00:24:46 because that which you are rendering unto him is a COMPLETE non issue 00:24:52 a lawyer is already oathd to the judiciary dept 00:24:54 he wants gold? give him gold 00:25:05 the const has not been amended to allow such conflict 00:25:07 let him have every single penny you own 00:25:15 no 00:25:19 that's out of context. 00:25:43 who so ever cannot give up EVERYTHING that he owns... .. . 00:26:03 I like my gold. I think I will keep it. 00:26:04 the ONLY (repeat ONLY) thing that you own that is of ANY value what so ever is your LIFE 00:26:04 Problem of it all is, money, Law, what have you. It's all Fiction. Agreement. 00:26:16 yeshua was talking to fellow children of israel during the kingdom-on-earth; we are not subject to law. 00:26:35 no. we are NOT subject to mans law. only GODS 00:26:44 we are not subject to torah law. 00:26:54 not quite true 00:27:04 theres nothing in the NT that overrides or replace the OT 00:27:07 we, non-israelites, disciples of christ are ONLY subject to Love. that's our law. 00:27:22 You can't be subject to that which you create. If that were true then God would be subject to us and have to answer all prayers. 00:27:22 then you dont yet comprehend what Paul wrote. 00:27:30 and in following THAT law we follow all gods laws of the OT 00:27:50 but you dint say that 00:28:12 i said it earlier 00:28:23 yes, the command of Love encompasses all of torah; but we are not to obey torah law because the letter of law kills; love gives life. 00:28:32 live by gods laws before you live by mans 00:28:50 if my government takes my guns ill just get new ones 00:28:50 the law applies to whom it is written; are we children of israel by convenant to obey black letter? 00:28:52 no. 00:29:07 what do you mean by "black letter" 00:29:08 we are adopted; grafted in; but we are not children by fleshly convenant. 00:29:16 quiznos no! 00:29:21 blackletter is euphemistic reference to writen law. 00:29:38 we ARE isreal. we as christians are gods chosen 00:29:44 but it's a `eu' (good) referene necesarily 00:29:45 kk 00:29:48 no what? 00:29:56 we are engrafted, adopted 00:30:00 we are what we are. 00:30:05 not so. 00:30:13 we are not children of Israel (coi henceforth) 00:30:17 in the flesh 00:30:23 god did not create other races only to be thrown away 00:30:25 we are spiritual children 00:30:33 there is ONLY one "race" (bad word) 00:30:35 isreal was an example to us 00:30:36 a lesson 00:30:37 one family of Man 00:30:40 So you guys are not big on richard dawkins then? 00:30:46 who he? 00:30:48 if WE chose god he will chose US 00:30:56 weather we are born of isreal or not 00:31:00 Quiznos: He wrote some books on God. I recommend 'em. 00:31:07 they all wrote books 00:31:09 write 00:31:11 big deal 00:31:19 what's his claim to fame? 00:31:32 I don't quite understand the expression. 00:31:38 * Raystm2 goes and looks up Dawkings 00:31:40 but i has to go zzz now, im getting tired but im MAJORY pleased there are some like minded ppl in here ::)))) 00:31:50 yikes spelled wrong. 00:32:01 gn 00:32:05 nite :) 00:32:15 night. 00:32:16 yw 00:32:26 Raystm2: I was specifically thinking of his "The God delusion" 00:33:04 schme my habit has developed to not read anything by anyone who disputes God. 00:33:12 * Raystm2 is totally meme centric. I suppose we all are. lol 00:33:15 i just dont care to read error. 00:33:31 or learn it for that matter 00:33:32 gn Mark! :) 00:33:54 Quiznos: That seems a bit odd of a thing to do. How do you plan on I dunno.. critisize Marx without having read Marx? for example. 00:34:23 Quiznos: and you seem to be reading what I write here on IRC ;) 00:34:33 Quiznos: must be hard life you lead, not talking to anyone. 00:34:34 schme well, i could discuss it (the habit is alittle recent :) but why should I? 00:34:39 heh 00:34:43 dont be pedantic :) 00:34:48 Quiznos: do you read the bible? 00:34:52 nor take it to the extreme 00:34:57 ams i do 00:35:10 Quiznos: the you read things and thinkings that dispute the existance of god. 00:35:27 Quiznos: To be honest I don't generally dispute God. I feel disputing God being as dumb as disputing smurfs and the reality of discworld. It's just.. so obvious that it's a fairy tale so why bother? 00:35:32 That's my view on it all. 00:35:46 ams studying god's word must necesarily mean rightly-dividing. that is a whole process; not limited to reading the surface text alone. 00:36:09 schme then you havent rightly-divided the text; this is a command of a sort. 00:36:20 Who decides what is "righly-divided", eh? 00:36:25 it's not enough to just read the surface text 00:36:35 Quiznos: who decides what is rightly divided? 00:36:36 God; he works with each of us to learn his word. 00:36:36 you? 00:36:40 God does 00:36:44 Quiznos: oh, but it is you who are reading it, not god. 00:36:48 yes 00:36:57 i read and I question God as to what he meant 00:37:04 Quiznos: so how do you know that what you read has been righttly divided in such away that is acceptable by God? 00:37:07 i dont read in a vacuum 00:37:13 i ask him. 00:37:28 "is this right?" am i understanding correctly?" 00:37:34 ams: I saw some hillarious video yesterday about peak oil theory. Guy in the video claimed God demands us to use more oil :) 00:37:34 it's not hard to do. 00:37:35 Quiznos: well, you're crazy and should seekout a shrink. 00:37:44 ty for your opinion 00:37:52 Quiznos: not an opinion, a medical fact. 00:38:03 no, it's an opinion 00:38:14 but w.e. it's yours, not mine. 00:38:22 and you are NOT my master to tell me what to do. 00:38:28 schme: nifty. 00:38:34 ams: it's in the bible ;) 00:38:40 sure 00:39:04 it should be noted that i don't think that god and smurfs are equaly, but if you believe in god, i should be able to believe in the smurfs and the tooth fairy. 00:39:11 or some pagan stuff.. 00:39:27 though peple claiming that god speaks to them... pisses me of. 00:39:29 God talks to you? Be careful. The answer could even affect your career. some people that say they hear voices are institutialized because the rest of them say they don't herar voices. 00:39:29 sure. to your heart's delight but there is a consequence 00:40:07 Quiznos: right, you getting locked in a small white room.. =) 00:40:10 if God chooses to speak to someone, ... some people hear God audibly, some hear a babbling brook; some hear thunder 00:40:36 see the account in the Gospels 00:40:39 accounts 00:40:48 Quiznos: i hear god now... he says that i should kill you. 00:40:52 ok 00:41:00 but there is a consequence if you're wrong. 00:41:07 sure, but i am not, he speaks to me. 00:41:10 but i get to go home to the Lord; never a bad thing. 00:41:15 premature maybe but never bad. 00:41:24 heh 00:41:26 Quiznos: sure, if you are riht, but you have absolutley no clue. 00:41:40 that's an invalid proposal and conclusion 00:41:49 rather, condition and conclusion 00:42:24 or, condition and subordinate clause 00:42:30 all invalid. 00:42:33 Quiznos: not really, the only time you will now is when you stand before god 00:42:34 I'm still waiting for any form of scientifical proof for any of this. So many years, and still nothing. 00:42:35 The God that was a secret. <-- t-shirt or book title? 00:42:39 not before 00:43:06 schme keep asking God. he has already shown you; look more carefully at what you hear and see. 00:43:16 ams that'll be a glorious day. 00:43:22 Raystm2 dont know. 00:43:24 Quiznos: Not planning to. 00:43:26 Quiznos: sure, _if_ it comes for you. 00:43:27 ok 00:43:33 schme ok 00:43:35 Quiznos: which you don't know. 00:43:44 I see, personally, the particle universe and the side effect of chemical reactions called life. 00:43:46 ray's qery 00:43:49 Also much plastic. 00:43:50 and frankly, i don't care for my own part. i will treat people as i wish to be treated, god be damned. 00:44:03 and that is all you can expect. 00:44:10 remember "expect" means "hope" 00:44:14 It is the universes intention to develop and ship plastic. With out man this can not be don. 00:44:37 +e 00:44:40 intention, eh? 00:44:49 ams did you also know that "i will treat..." is based on what is writ in the Gospels? 00:44:58 Nothing is accomplished with out intent. 00:45:11 Quiznos: well, no, it isn't. it is much older than the gospels. 00:45:12 I didn't indend to say that but there it is. 00:45:16 ok 00:45:19 Quiznos: but you are right that it is written in the gospels. 00:45:20 Quiznos: I was under the impression that golden rule was stolen from the hindus that have been using it from way earlier. 00:45:23 as many other things are. 00:45:35 it boils down to karma. 00:45:42 do good, and good will come upon you. 00:45:44 schme the oldest account of the Gospels is written in the names of the stars and constellations. 00:45:52 everyone knew what they meant. 00:45:59 the stars and constellations? shit. 00:46:01 and modernly, the names are the same. 00:46:07 googld "zodiac" 00:46:09 Quiznos: *wink* 00:46:10 like constellations is anything but patterns humans have made up. 00:46:13 it's not astrology. 00:46:21 look at the names 00:46:31 constellations are just a side effect of human need to see patterns in shit. 00:46:34 Wah! 00:46:40 hey ASau 00:46:48 schme if you dont study what they mean how can you scoff? 00:46:48 Intensive talks on #forth! 00:46:53 Good morning, all. 00:46:56 schme: not to mention that they ... CHANGE! 00:46:58 Some would say that the Golden Rule is ( cough cough ) "common sense" and that no one ever needed to "invent" it. 00:47:00 ams: exactly. 00:47:06 how can anyone make an informed decision on the subject or their author? 00:47:12 hi ASau 00:47:13 --- part: pgas left #forth 00:47:18 hi ASau 00:47:19 not to mention that the gospels where written 200 years after christs dead. 00:47:28 ams, that's incorrect. 00:47:29 and that they describe christs life. 00:47:35 that' a gnostic misinformation 00:47:40 Quiznos: It's about as stupid as studying things I see in cloud formations. "oh look thar be a duck! now it's a dragon!" It's just my mind wanting to see patterns in chaos. 00:47:40 ...if he existed at all. 00:47:51 schme that's not studying and you know it. 00:48:02 ASau: well, evidence shows that someone by that name did exist, 00:48:03 studying clouds is about meterology 00:48:04 so... 00:48:06 weather. 00:48:12 ASau we are practicing. Getting ready to go over to #c++ and kick some reliigous ***. 00:48:15 Quiznos: It is me explaining why studying constellations is extremely dumb. 00:48:17 so study the weather; no one would call that stupid 00:48:33 you are evil-hearted; caring not for truth or love. 00:48:38 Quiznos: We are talking about studying the patterns the human mind makes up. 00:48:39 uh. 00:48:48 I'm evil-hearted now. That's great. 00:48:49 Quiznos: evil is good. 00:48:53 if you love then you'd seek truth because truth is self-evident. 00:49:03 but you ignore it for the programming you learned in school 00:49:05 evil makes good good. 00:49:05 Well... In fact it isn't. 00:49:06 so be it. 00:49:07 Quiznos: you also realise that "gnostic misinformation" is quite silly seeing that christ was most surley gnostic himself? 00:49:18 ams nop. 00:49:22 If truth were self-evident, we'd have no religious zealots. 00:49:30 So many of them. 00:49:31 the gnostics were more interested in their own egos instead of truth 00:49:48 gravity is self-evident; do you challenge its existence? 00:50:06 Everyday. When I stand up. 00:50:08 you cant taste it, feel it, or see it, yet it exists. 00:50:09 Quiznos: everyday i have to get out of bed i challange it. 00:50:13 i can taste it? 00:50:15 well laundry time. 00:50:17 it has an affect on everything 00:50:18 Miracles are self-evident. How dare you to challenge them? 00:50:22 what does gravity have for taste? 00:50:42 I challenge Gravity everyday when I stand. When I throw. 00:51:00 It's the ground effect of electrons that won't be challenged. 00:51:07 Forth is a way of thinking first; do you challenge its existence as a style of thinking? 00:51:10 You can fall all day... 00:51:13 but hit the ground. 00:51:30 Quiznos: i don't think when i program, so yeah i do challange forth. 00:51:32 Love is a way of thinking also. 00:51:35 It took 1,5 thousand years between christian histery and gravity discovery. 00:52:00 Quiznos: love is a cheimical reaction in the brain. 00:52:09 that's not a limit 00:52:13 ams: that's plain wrong. 00:52:16 and doesnt explain how it works 00:52:23 love is programming for situations 00:52:30 just like hatred 00:52:37 ASau: not really, initially that is what it is, and later it is just addiction and not getting those happy chemicals makes you sad. 00:52:38 Physical love, sure... existential love? 00:52:52 chemical reactions in brain are the same in love and in hatred. 00:52:55 love is a pattern recogniser for how to deal with people. 00:53:09 anyway, this is to whacky for me now. 00:53:10 its proper implementation prevents abuses 00:53:15 love because of existance only requres forethought. ---D'oh also a chemical reaction in the brain. so i'm wrong. 00:53:16 09:53 /ignore Quiznos 00:53:20 09:53 /ignore ASau 00:53:21 kool 00:53:31 silence is golden sometimes 00:53:32 all hail eris! 00:53:32 you can't distinguish strong psycological reactions by chemistry. 00:53:57 fnord 00:53:58 agape <--- some sort of love.. /me looks up. 00:54:22 agape is the kind of love that God uses 00:54:53 the truth is --- The brain can neven know if what is happening is made up by the brain or out side of it. 00:55:01 A neurological truth. 00:55:14 but the mind knows, and the spirit too 00:55:26 Raystm2: at neurological level only. 00:55:35 The mind knows what the structure allows. 00:55:45