00:00:00 --- log: started forth/09.09.20 00:00:09 let he that hath no sword sell every freeking thing he owns right down to the cloathes off his back so that he might buy one 00:00:17 heh 00:00:23 id that a pseudo-quot? 00:00:28 Quiznos, if i try kill you. and i succeed TWO people commited murder 00:00:30 me by my actions 00:00:34 nods 00:00:40 YOU by your inactions 00:00:47 Quiznos: I have no problems with GMO what so ever. 00:00:50 it could be seen that way 00:00:56 schme but it's not food anymore. 00:01:04 gmo corn is not food 00:01:11 it's not natural. 00:01:21 Quiznos: Sure it is. modifying genes does not necessarily change the nutritional value of it. 00:01:24 heh.. natural. 00:01:25 if i try to kill yo and you defend yourself and i die. then YOU have killed someone but I have comitted murder 00:01:27 That's funny. 00:01:34 i am guilty for my death but you are not 00:01:34 The kinds of people that first came here were industialists and those people brought God here. The Elite doesn't need God and the poor can't find God, but the totally Elite created middle class is well controlled with Fire and brimstone messages that never lead to revolt. 00:01:38 I440r yep 00:02:02 brb coffee 00:02:11 i carry a gun. i will always carrya gun. if my government takes my gun away ill get another 00:02:14 Good idea me coffee too. :) 00:02:17 Excellent idea with coffee. 00:02:17 i live by GODS law before i live by mans 00:02:32 Also I hope I did not offend you guys by mocking your belief in all this. (: 00:02:41 even a mass murderer should be allowed to defend his life against someon who has no authority to take it 00:03:00 God only has the one law -- Short version -- like Doctors, Do no harm. The Golden Rule, Do unto others... 00:03:07 I440r: That's quite interesting there with living by gods law before mans law. Islam has it the other way around. Kinda funny. 00:03:07 schme, you cannot offend me with your opinon 00:03:56 I'm bothered by swedish gun laws. I live in a high crime city. Quite a bit of gang warfare etc. 00:04:10 If someone breaks into my house I'm pretty much allowed to ask him to wait while I call the police. 00:04:14 schme I don't believe in any of this beyond the statement that it is a phenominal thought experiment and I come across it in the US quite often. 00:04:21 schme, which is satans influence on islam. the arabs are all sons of abraham. they are all decended of ishmail 00:04:34 but im probably spelling that wrong cuz im under the affluence of incahol! 00:04:48 But I don't want to give any one reason to think I think they are wrong because I don't know. 00:05:27 Raystm2: I tend to disbelieve things that go against things like oh I dunno.. the fossil record etc. :) 00:05:36 schme if i lived there i would prefer to stand before a jury to defend myself than be carried in a coffin to my grave 00:05:51 I440r: Yes. 00:05:59 well we don't really have a jury, but yeah. 00:06:00 Raystm2, NEVER be afraid to express your opinion 00:06:01 See, alcohol, firearms, tobacco. Some how that is an agency in the US. or was. And it was Big tobacco that owned and were the politiions and the rest was used to control some of the population. 00:06:13 rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, or how it goes. 00:06:17 if its wrong someone might have the brains to explain to you WHY you are wrong. 00:06:28 if you have any brains you will learn the truth 00:06:35 thanks Mark :) 00:06:36 i sometimes have problems with this 00:06:47 im too opinionated and ANGRY DAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!! 00:06:48 lol 00:06:55 im working on it 00:06:56 schme :) 00:06:58 well said. 00:07:07 a fool is quick to anger. the bible says this in SOOOOO many places 00:07:16 also. 00:07:20 hehe :) 00:07:22 i will defend TO THE DEATH if need be 00:07:23 I440r: That is another thing I enjoy about the USoA. People are not afraid to speak their opinions, and everyone is allowed to do so.. regardless of how fucked up it is. Not quite so in sweden. certain opinions get.. hmm.. dunno the word. well you get the idea. 00:07:31 your RIGHT to hear MY OPINION! 00:07:50 :) great point! 00:08:08 a wise russian ones said that everyoine has freedom of speach 00:08:20 the difference is that in america you have freedom AFTER speach 00:08:21 schme really? Do people um.... disappear? 00:08:46 Raystm2: nono. they just get heckled by media nonstop until they wish they did disappear. 00:09:12 lol they could try that with me. i wont be pushed around by my government 00:09:18 maybe shot. but not pushed around! 00:09:28 It's not the government doing it. It's society as a whole. 00:09:31 when i moved to arizona i went to get a carry permit 00:09:32 You have freedom to be hauled into a court system against your will and pre-judged as to your societal worrtyness before you are either castaway or cast into financial ruin. 00:09:38 to get this you need to take an 8 hour course 00:09:59 i went to the class and looked at the forms and saw places where it wanted me to put my social security number 00:10:09 i told the instructor i would NOT be filling out those places 00:10:12 schme no pun intended. Thank God for that. At least it's defenceable. There are libel laws. 00:10:24 he told me he would not be signing off on my forms 00:10:28 i got up and left 00:10:30 That I don't understand though. What's the big deal with social security numbers? 00:10:46 i found another class. took it. took the papers home and fille4d them out. all but the SSN 00:11:04 i then contcted the arizona department of public safty 00:11:20 In US one needs to licence all behavior. good or bad. 00:11:30 and said im going to be sending in my carry permit app with no ssn. they said they would deny the app 00:11:40 Marriage, gun permit... don't know why I put those together... 00:11:42 You can't even rent a movie here without your social security number. It is how the store keeps track of who has rented the movies. 00:11:47 Business licence car... 00:11:54 indeed 00:12:15 * schme does not quite see the big deal with filling it in. 00:12:16 i told them that THAT would be in direct violation of the 1975 privacy act that stats that if a form did not reqire an SSN prior to 1.1.75 it was disqualified from requiring it NOW. 00:12:53 as arizona did not enact a CCW till 1994 they were disqualified from requiring any SSN on ANY forms related to the CCW 00:13:01 When you licence in the US you give the right to the Gov to regulate you. It's okay NOT to licence because no one can force you to contract, not even the Gov, tho most people would say "everybody knows you have too". 00:13:08 i told them if they denied my permit application i would sue 00:13:43 i got an email 2 weeks alter from "renee s wilson" supivisor in charge of the arizona dps handbun licencing division 00:14:18 If they deny you then you are legally in dispute and can continue your just practice until judged by your peers in court. You don't need to sue. They will if they catch you. 00:14:38 it said that the state of arizona would no longer be requiring any SSn on its CCW applicaiton forms and that as stocks of the current form are depleated they would be replaced with this field removed 00:15:06 thats good. 00:15:08 i have my arizona CCW now 00:15:18 thats good. too 00:15:21 i also have an indiana CCW because ive moved to indiana 00:15:49 point is. if your government tries to push you around and you know ITS game. you can beat it 00:15:50 Thats good tutoo I mean to also. :) 00:16:01 my father always said that you cannot beat city hall 00:16:20 ive seen my mother go head to head with city hall AND WIN too many times to believe that 00:16:52 Not when They call in the national guard. That china man that stands up before tanks in Tienemin (sp) square doesn't make appearances. 00:17:32 well heres the thing 00:17:45 You see, the current gov will not be revolted against. Not for many years now. 00:18:04 no. im not advocating a revolt in THAT way 00:18:06 You can make changes to the system but the system remains. 00:18:12 the system has not failed outright 00:18:19 and we ARE winning this battle slowly 00:18:30 But should it be necessary, I mean, we have the guns but not the gumption. 00:18:44 mmm, law; there is no law that applies to me because i am NOT a 14th amendment-defined PERSON. 00:18:49 right now the way to beat the oppositiojn is to vote them morons out of office 00:19:12 to be replaced with new model morons. 00:19:22 Quiznos, the ONLY laws that you SHOULD follow are GODS laws 00:19:29 and because of the constitutions enacted during the 1960s, i am also disenfranchised. 00:19:33 I440r yep 00:19:35 the consitution does not bestow rights upon you 00:19:42 i know 00:19:42 it simply states what rights you have 00:19:46 no 00:19:53 delete the entire consitution and it does not remove those rights 00:19:57 not even 00:20:09 "secure rights"; guarantee them. protect them 00:20:12 I agree, there is need for beuracracy, tedium, gets you thru the day, people handleing things for you so you don't have to. so you can do something else but when it restricts you so much ... /me didn't get coffee. Bye :) 00:20:15 but govt fails 00:20:20 http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php <-- VERY interesting animation :) 00:20:39 Raystm2 you leaving? 00:20:50 all goveernments will fail 00:20:54 ahve failed 00:20:57 already 00:21:02 in the end there will be only ONE government 00:21:03 GODS 00:21:05 there are 60million statutes and one true law. the law of life. :) just coffee. :) 00:21:15 ok 00:22:04 --- join: pgas (n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/pgas) joined #forth 00:22:06 love god with all thy heart and soul. love thy neighbor as thyself 00:22:14 and there you have 100% of gods laws 00:22:34 follow THAT law and ignore all others and you cannot go wrong 00:22:50 every bill voted upon by a multi-dept oathed legislature is invalid due to improper house procedure and thus void 00:23:08 Quiznos, well no. not EVERY 00:23:08 legislator 00:23:11 EVERY. 00:23:13 just 99.99999999999999% 00:23:22 if one lawyer votes for a bill; the bill is dead. 00:23:36 the law of avarages dictates that they HAVE to get some laws right SOMETIMES lol 00:23:37 thus, there is no law "on the books" 00:23:43 nop 00:23:53 I didn't know about the proceedural problem. 00:24:12 the only perfect system is gods system. mans system will always be flawed because man is flawed 00:24:19 the flaws are a non issue 00:24:20 when a lawyer joins the legislature, his vote is always void bc of conflict of interest 00:24:27 only bc no one objects. 00:24:30 render unto ceasar that which is ceasars 00:24:33 why? 00:24:39 when a lawyer joins the legislature, his vote is always void bc of conflict of interest 00:24:46 because that which you are rendering unto him is a COMPLETE non issue 00:24:52 a lawyer is already oathd to the judiciary dept 00:24:54 he wants gold? give him gold 00:25:05 the const has not been amended to allow such conflict 00:25:07 let him have every single penny you own 00:25:15 no 00:25:19 that's out of context. 00:25:43 who so ever cannot give up EVERYTHING that he owns... .. . 00:26:03 I like my gold. I think I will keep it. 00:26:04 the ONLY (repeat ONLY) thing that you own that is of ANY value what so ever is your LIFE 00:26:04 Problem of it all is, money, Law, what have you. It's all Fiction. Agreement. 00:26:16 yeshua was talking to fellow children of israel during the kingdom-on-earth; we are not subject to law. 00:26:35 no. we are NOT subject to mans law. only GODS 00:26:44 we are not subject to torah law. 00:26:54 not quite true 00:27:04 theres nothing in the NT that overrides or replace the OT 00:27:07 we, non-israelites, disciples of christ are ONLY subject to Love. that's our law. 00:27:22 You can't be subject to that which you create. If that were true then God would be subject to us and have to answer all prayers. 00:27:22 then you dont yet comprehend what Paul wrote. 00:27:30 and in following THAT law we follow all gods laws of the OT 00:27:50 but you dint say that 00:28:12 i said it earlier 00:28:23 yes, the command of Love encompasses all of torah; but we are not to obey torah law because the letter of law kills; love gives life. 00:28:32 live by gods laws before you live by mans 00:28:50 if my government takes my guns ill just get new ones 00:28:50 the law applies to whom it is written; are we children of israel by convenant to obey black letter? 00:28:52 no. 00:29:07 what do you mean by "black letter" 00:29:08 we are adopted; grafted in; but we are not children by fleshly convenant. 00:29:16 quiznos no! 00:29:21 blackletter is euphemistic reference to writen law. 00:29:38 we ARE isreal. we as christians are gods chosen 00:29:44 but it's a `eu' (good) referene necesarily 00:29:45 kk 00:29:48 no what? 00:29:56 we are engrafted, adopted 00:30:00 we are what we are. 00:30:05 not so. 00:30:13 we are not children of Israel (coi henceforth) 00:30:17 in the flesh 00:30:23 god did not create other races only to be thrown away 00:30:25 we are spiritual children 00:30:33 there is ONLY one "race" (bad word) 00:30:35 isreal was an example to us 00:30:36 a lesson 00:30:37 one family of Man 00:30:40 So you guys are not big on richard dawkins then? 00:30:46 who he? 00:30:48 if WE chose god he will chose US 00:30:56 weather we are born of isreal or not 00:31:00 Quiznos: He wrote some books on God. I recommend 'em. 00:31:07 they all wrote books 00:31:09 write 00:31:11 big deal 00:31:19 what's his claim to fame? 00:31:32 I don't quite understand the expression. 00:31:38 * Raystm2 goes and looks up Dawkings 00:31:40 but i has to go zzz now, im getting tired but im MAJORY pleased there are some like minded ppl in here ::)))) 00:31:50 yikes spelled wrong. 00:32:01 gn 00:32:05 nite :) 00:32:15 night. 00:32:16 yw 00:32:26 Raystm2: I was specifically thinking of his "The God delusion" 00:33:04 schme my habit has developed to not read anything by anyone who disputes God. 00:33:12 * Raystm2 is totally meme centric. I suppose we all are. lol 00:33:15 i just dont care to read error. 00:33:31 or learn it for that matter 00:33:32 gn Mark! :) 00:33:54 Quiznos: That seems a bit odd of a thing to do. How do you plan on I dunno.. critisize Marx without having read Marx? for example. 00:34:23 Quiznos: and you seem to be reading what I write here on IRC ;) 00:34:33 Quiznos: must be hard life you lead, not talking to anyone. 00:34:34 schme well, i could discuss it (the habit is alittle recent :) but why should I? 00:34:39 heh 00:34:43 dont be pedantic :) 00:34:48 Quiznos: do you read the bible? 00:34:52 nor take it to the extreme 00:34:57 ams i do 00:35:10 Quiznos: the you read things and thinkings that dispute the existance of god. 00:35:27 Quiznos: To be honest I don't generally dispute God. I feel disputing God being as dumb as disputing smurfs and the reality of discworld. It's just.. so obvious that it's a fairy tale so why bother? 00:35:32 That's my view on it all. 00:35:46 ams studying god's word must necesarily mean rightly-dividing. that is a whole process; not limited to reading the surface text alone. 00:36:09 schme then you havent rightly-divided the text; this is a command of a sort. 00:36:20 Who decides what is "righly-divided", eh? 00:36:25 it's not enough to just read the surface text 00:36:35 Quiznos: who decides what is rightly divided? 00:36:36 God; he works with each of us to learn his word. 00:36:36 you? 00:36:40 God does 00:36:44 Quiznos: oh, but it is you who are reading it, not god. 00:36:48 yes 00:36:57 i read and I question God as to what he meant 00:37:04 Quiznos: so how do you know that what you read has been righttly divided in such away that is acceptable by God? 00:37:07 i dont read in a vacuum 00:37:13 i ask him. 00:37:28 "is this right?" am i understanding correctly?" 00:37:34 ams: I saw some hillarious video yesterday about peak oil theory. Guy in the video claimed God demands us to use more oil :) 00:37:34 it's not hard to do. 00:37:35 Quiznos: well, you're crazy and should seekout a shrink. 00:37:44 ty for your opinion 00:37:52 Quiznos: not an opinion, a medical fact. 00:38:03 no, it's an opinion 00:38:14 but w.e. it's yours, not mine. 00:38:22 and you are NOT my master to tell me what to do. 00:38:28 schme: nifty. 00:38:34 ams: it's in the bible ;) 00:38:40 sure 00:39:04 it should be noted that i don't think that god and smurfs are equaly, but if you believe in god, i should be able to believe in the smurfs and the tooth fairy. 00:39:11 or some pagan stuff.. 00:39:27 though peple claiming that god speaks to them... pisses me of. 00:39:29 God talks to you? Be careful. The answer could even affect your career. some people that say they hear voices are institutialized because the rest of them say they don't herar voices. 00:39:29 sure. to your heart's delight but there is a consequence 00:40:07 Quiznos: right, you getting locked in a small white room.. =) 00:40:10 if God chooses to speak to someone, ... some people hear God audibly, some hear a babbling brook; some hear thunder 00:40:36 see the account in the Gospels 00:40:39 accounts 00:40:48 Quiznos: i hear god now... he says that i should kill you. 00:40:52 ok 00:41:00 but there is a consequence if you're wrong. 00:41:07 sure, but i am not, he speaks to me. 00:41:10 but i get to go home to the Lord; never a bad thing. 00:41:15 premature maybe but never bad. 00:41:24 heh 00:41:26 Quiznos: sure, if you are riht, but you have absolutley no clue. 00:41:40 that's an invalid proposal and conclusion 00:41:49 rather, condition and conclusion 00:42:24 or, condition and subordinate clause 00:42:30 all invalid. 00:42:33 Quiznos: not really, the only time you will now is when you stand before god 00:42:34 I'm still waiting for any form of scientifical proof for any of this. So many years, and still nothing. 00:42:35 The God that was a secret. <-- t-shirt or book title? 00:42:39 not before 00:43:06 schme keep asking God. he has already shown you; look more carefully at what you hear and see. 00:43:16 ams that'll be a glorious day. 00:43:22 Raystm2 dont know. 00:43:24 Quiznos: Not planning to. 00:43:26 Quiznos: sure, _if_ it comes for you. 00:43:27 ok 00:43:33 schme ok 00:43:35 Quiznos: which you don't know. 00:43:44 I see, personally, the particle universe and the side effect of chemical reactions called life. 00:43:46 ray's qery 00:43:49 Also much plastic. 00:43:50 and frankly, i don't care for my own part. i will treat people as i wish to be treated, god be damned. 00:44:03 and that is all you can expect. 00:44:10 remember "expect" means "hope" 00:44:14 It is the universes intention to develop and ship plastic. With out man this can not be don. 00:44:37 +e 00:44:40 intention, eh? 00:44:49 ams did you also know that "i will treat..." is based on what is writ in the Gospels? 00:44:58 Nothing is accomplished with out intent. 00:45:11 Quiznos: well, no, it isn't. it is much older than the gospels. 00:45:12 I didn't indend to say that but there it is. 00:45:16 ok 00:45:19 Quiznos: but you are right that it is written in the gospels. 00:45:20 Quiznos: I was under the impression that golden rule was stolen from the hindus that have been using it from way earlier. 00:45:23 as many other things are. 00:45:35 it boils down to karma. 00:45:42 do good, and good will come upon you. 00:45:44 schme the oldest account of the Gospels is written in the names of the stars and constellations. 00:45:52 everyone knew what they meant. 00:45:59 the stars and constellations? shit. 00:46:01 and modernly, the names are the same. 00:46:07 googld "zodiac" 00:46:09 Quiznos: *wink* 00:46:10 like constellations is anything but patterns humans have made up. 00:46:13 it's not astrology. 00:46:21 look at the names 00:46:31 constellations are just a side effect of human need to see patterns in shit. 00:46:34 Wah! 00:46:40 hey ASau 00:46:48 schme if you dont study what they mean how can you scoff? 00:46:48 Intensive talks on #forth! 00:46:53 Good morning, all. 00:46:56 schme: not to mention that they ... CHANGE! 00:46:58 Some would say that the Golden Rule is ( cough cough ) "common sense" and that no one ever needed to "invent" it. 00:47:00 ams: exactly. 00:47:06 how can anyone make an informed decision on the subject or their author? 00:47:12 hi ASau 00:47:13 --- part: pgas left #forth 00:47:18 hi ASau 00:47:19 not to mention that the gospels where written 200 years after christs dead. 00:47:28 ams, that's incorrect. 00:47:29 and that they describe christs life. 00:47:35 that' a gnostic misinformation 00:47:40 Quiznos: It's about as stupid as studying things I see in cloud formations. "oh look thar be a duck! now it's a dragon!" It's just my mind wanting to see patterns in chaos. 00:47:40 ...if he existed at all. 00:47:51 schme that's not studying and you know it. 00:48:02 ASau: well, evidence shows that someone by that name did exist, 00:48:03 studying clouds is about meterology 00:48:04 so... 00:48:06 weather. 00:48:12 ASau we are practicing. Getting ready to go over to #c++ and kick some reliigous ***. 00:48:15 Quiznos: It is me explaining why studying constellations is extremely dumb. 00:48:17 so study the weather; no one would call that stupid 00:48:33 you are evil-hearted; caring not for truth or love. 00:48:38 Quiznos: We are talking about studying the patterns the human mind makes up. 00:48:39 uh. 00:48:48 I'm evil-hearted now. That's great. 00:48:49 Quiznos: evil is good. 00:48:53 if you love then you'd seek truth because truth is self-evident. 00:49:03 but you ignore it for the programming you learned in school 00:49:05 evil makes good good. 00:49:05 Well... In fact it isn't. 00:49:06 so be it. 00:49:07 Quiznos: you also realise that "gnostic misinformation" is quite silly seeing that christ was most surley gnostic himself? 00:49:18 ams nop. 00:49:22 If truth were self-evident, we'd have no religious zealots. 00:49:30 So many of them. 00:49:31 the gnostics were more interested in their own egos instead of truth 00:49:48 gravity is self-evident; do you challenge its existence? 00:50:06 Everyday. When I stand up. 00:50:08 you cant taste it, feel it, or see it, yet it exists. 00:50:09 Quiznos: everyday i have to get out of bed i challange it. 00:50:13 i can taste it? 00:50:15 well laundry time. 00:50:17 it has an affect on everything 00:50:18 Miracles are self-evident. How dare you to challenge them? 00:50:22 what does gravity have for taste? 00:50:42 I challenge Gravity everyday when I stand. When I throw. 00:51:00 It's the ground effect of electrons that won't be challenged. 00:51:07 Forth is a way of thinking first; do you challenge its existence as a style of thinking? 00:51:10 You can fall all day... 00:51:13 but hit the ground. 00:51:30 Quiznos: i don't think when i program, so yeah i do challange forth. 00:51:32 Love is a way of thinking also. 00:51:35 It took 1,5 thousand years between christian histery and gravity discovery. 00:52:00 Quiznos: love is a cheimical reaction in the brain. 00:52:09 that's not a limit 00:52:13 ams: that's plain wrong. 00:52:16 and doesnt explain how it works 00:52:23 love is programming for situations 00:52:30 just like hatred 00:52:37 ASau: not really, initially that is what it is, and later it is just addiction and not getting those happy chemicals makes you sad. 00:52:38 Physical love, sure... existential love? 00:52:52 chemical reactions in brain are the same in love and in hatred. 00:52:55 love is a pattern recogniser for how to deal with people. 00:53:09 anyway, this is to whacky for me now. 00:53:10 its proper implementation prevents abuses 00:53:15 love because of existance only requres forethought. ---D'oh also a chemical reaction in the brain. so i'm wrong. 00:53:16 09:53 /ignore Quiznos 00:53:20 09:53 /ignore ASau 00:53:21 kool 00:53:31 silence is golden sometimes 00:53:32 all hail eris! 00:53:32 you can't distinguish strong psycological reactions by chemistry. 00:53:57 fnord 00:53:58 agape <--- some sort of love.. /me looks up. 00:54:22 agape is the kind of love that God uses 00:54:53 the truth is --- The brain can neven know if what is happening is made up by the brain or out side of it. 00:55:01 A neurological truth. 00:55:14 but the mind knows, and the spirit too 00:55:26 Raystm2: at neurological level only. 00:55:35 The mind knows what the structure allows. 00:55:45 We can never know, with certainty, anything. 00:55:53 and knowing God expands the structure 00:56:09 Raystm2 think outside the Box. 00:56:16 There is only neurological level. Prove I exist. Quickly now prove you do. 00:56:26 the box is what you refer to but with God nothing is impossible 00:56:31 The mind knows what the languages allows (Sapir-Whorf thesis). 00:56:33 There is only inside the box. 00:56:37 exactly!!! 00:56:39 You are all inside the universe. 00:56:42 loglan language 00:56:49 there is a way out of the box!!! 00:56:55 i broke the box. 00:57:06 Break the Universe now :D 00:57:06 God helped me break it. 00:57:08 * Raystm2 looks up Sapir-Whorf. 00:57:42 Raystm2 essentially the S-W theorom states that the langauge abillity of man constricts what can be stated in his particular langauge. 00:57:57 oops; states that what man can state is limited by his language. 00:58:09 Sapir-Whorf as I understand the first few lines in wikipedia, still doesn't prove i exist. 00:58:16 /can state/discuss/ 00:58:33 keeping studfying it. it's far more complicated than wiki 00:58:45 google 'loglan' 00:59:36 Any other statement, that I can find, that states anything other then "I can't know for certainty that I exist -- signed Your Brain" is very hard to prove and I've not found it. 00:59:48 in some languages, there is no concept of "private property" or ownership; so there is no discussing it in that language 00:59:58 no "mine" 01:00:07 true. 01:00:13 or so we agree 01:00:15 :) 01:00:23 that's essentially what s-w says 01:00:38 I grok, and ty for the education. 01:00:44 loglan was developed on that theory 01:00:46 I love language stuff. 01:00:46 yw 01:00:49 me too 01:00:59 Oh sure I remember loglan. 01:01:03 kool 01:01:10 the spoken language you can compute with. 01:01:12 Quiznos: in fact it is more strict. 01:01:14 "he" made another language 01:01:18 after loglan 01:01:22 ASau ok 01:01:28 It isn't about discussion, it is about _thinking_. 01:01:32 nods 01:01:35 Otherwise it would be trivial. 01:01:46 but discuss is sequential to thinking 01:01:51 follows 01:02:27 If person doesn't have ownership in the language, he can't think of ownership as well. 01:02:36 right, i said that :) 01:02:43 That he can't discuss is evident. 01:02:52 Yikes the more tech we get the more the box closes around us. Borg brain here we come. 01:02:54 It's like inverse problem. 01:03:35 If you know drum dimensions, you can calculate its acoustic spectrum. 01:03:47 yea 01:04:05 If you know acoustic spectrum of drum, you can't find its dimensions. 01:04:16 (Andronov?) 01:04:30 holy heisenburgs 01:04:35 Forgot who's found that. 01:04:36 ThereFore ( a messed up corrolary ) Being that the Ego needs to be right all the time, and that the language contains a definition of God that is compeling to many people with Ego, this is the existance of God. 01:04:55 but that's incorrect programming. 01:05:00 which leads directly to error 01:05:17 and the rightly-dividing of scripture is the correcting-algorithm 01:05:44 ego is not god; nor is God ego. 01:05:50 God is God. 01:06:05 God is Allah, there's no other God. :D 01:06:05 ego is pride. 01:06:26 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 01:06:28 With ego, if God did not exist, then we would have latched on to the invention of it to be "more correct" as the ego requires. 01:06:44 ego doesnt know "correct" tho 01:06:44 You will fight me until you are considered correct. THAT's your ego. 01:06:52 Mine too. :) 01:07:08 no; i will point out error and show the correction. 01:07:18 it's up to the reader to accept or reject 01:07:23 Indeed you are correct. Ego knows what's right for itself for what ever definition it currently holds as right. 01:07:27 There's quite nice definition of god by Lenin. 01:07:32 i'm not here to convince, IOW 01:07:34 You can look it up, probably. 01:07:51 ray yea 01:08:04 but Lenin was NO friend of God 01:08:09 Sure. 01:08:16 so i reject everything Lenin has to say on the subject 01:08:27 and ecerything else for that matter he wrote. 01:08:32 That's why he could be objective. 01:08:47 his POV is antithetical to God and thus me. 01:08:56 so hs words are all error. 01:08:56 There is being "Dead to rights" that is to say you take a turn in traffic because you have the right but the other crash victom does not agree and you were right but you are now dead. 01:09:11 and bc he is dead there is no use arguing with him, even post-humously 01:10:12 Correcting a dead to right situation is not the untrained ego's purpose. 01:10:20 It is survival. 01:11:00 It takes a trained ego to understand a situation and to defend properly. 01:11:01 i think "survival" might belong to one who has no hope. i have hope and my survival as such is IN God. 01:11:11 --- quit: mathrick (Excess Flood) 01:11:12 i'm here now but i'd rather be with God. 01:11:22 but i stay bc he needs me here to do something. 01:11:31 Your ego has trained you to survive. You were not born with these attributes. 01:11:40 --- join: mathrick (n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk) joined #forth 01:11:42 no, God trained me to live his way. 01:11:59 ice cream truck! 01:12:26 When you started to study God, sure. But the mechanism to survive, said created by God does not require that kind of training. It's all self serving. 01:12:48 you keep skipping of the track that God setup. that's not good. 01:13:01 Dang, and I got diabetes and have a real hard time passing up icecream. 01:13:04 stop jumping the tracks between God's POV and yours 01:13:12 You say. 01:13:29 it's back to love on this; his way or your way 01:13:38 your way leads inevitably to error. 01:13:45 his to life and love. 01:13:48 But I don't trust your opinon. I keep using langugae that God fearing people don't use around here, but i've never left the track. 01:13:54 which is more than an emotion. 01:14:09 but when you state something about ego, that's not godly. 01:14:11 "error" "wrong" "good" "bad" according to who, eh? 01:14:17 according to God. 01:14:26 it's his program, not mine. 01:14:27 ego. according to survival ego. 01:14:28 that response came as no surprise. 01:14:35 ok good. then you already know it. 01:14:52 so all this is just rememberence for you. 01:15:08 Quiznos: I know you believe it. 01:15:26 but the point i make is that you know it also. you can reject it, but you do know it. 01:15:52 God created ego so that we would create God. There are two leaders in every tribe, male or female and they are the strong and the inteligent. Both necessary. The inteligent leader was ( used to be ) the spritual leader. Not strong enought to fight the leader but smart enough ot make the leader the leader. 01:16:13 god is not a created being; he is not a man that he should (be able to) lie 01:16:16 Quiznos: I know that you would respond like that, yes. 01:16:24 god is uncreated. no beginning, no end. 01:16:33 schme you are self-delusional. 01:16:43 Quiznos: You make me laugh very much. 01:16:49 ok 01:16:53 coffee 01:16:58 So I thank you for that, Quiznos 01:17:01 everything is created in the brain and we can not prove otherwise. We can not prove we have eyse to read these words, I can't prove you exist. 01:17:16 eyes even 01:17:39 seems like a bit of a waste of time to prove such things, no? 01:17:42 that nihilist bs. 01:18:12 didn't that god-nutrider decartes go along those lines, eh? 01:18:17 was a waste of time back then too. 01:18:17 Indeed., Should God exist then there is no argument. Should God not exist the argument is mute. SO... 01:18:57 adding God to the universe increases initial complexity. That seems a very unnatural thing wrt evidence in natural science. 01:19:28 it is much saner to remove the hypothesis of God. 01:19:31 i'm falling asleep here 01:19:32 Life as well, But it is ( cough cough ) evident. 01:19:33 gn. 01:19:38 Quiznos: good night. 01:19:45 gone 01:19:53 gn Quiznos and truely ty for great convo@ 01:19:55 ! 01:20:13 * schme is gearing up for another laundry run. 01:20:51 * Raystm2 loves laundry after it gets out of laundry. ONe of lifes litte pleasures. 01:20:56 cool. :) 01:21:02 --- quit: ams ("rebooting emacs") 01:21:07 I have to write a movie about colorForth. 01:22:01 a movie? 01:22:24 like the erlang movie? :D 01:22:25 Raystm2: just curious, what for are you using colorForth? 01:22:31 Ya, some "screenCapture" with my camCorder and so semi-pro movie software. 01:22:38 "Hello, Joe" 01:22:52 I don't know the erlang movie, yet. 01:23:01 Raystm2: Are you running it "on the metal" or in some virtualbox or what heck? 01:23:04 it that the name : "hello Joe" ? 01:23:14 I think one just asks youtube for erlang the movie 01:23:25 got you. :) 01:23:35 It all has a very monty pythonesque feel imo. 01:23:36 now why didn't I think of that? 01:23:47 schme: and since you're new here, 01:23:51 cool it's all good. I like MP 01:23:53 schme: what for are you using Forth? 01:24:08 Raystm2: If you are running it "on top" of linux and windows.. then you should be able to use some screencapturing software. 01:24:16 ASau: audio synthesis (: 01:24:29 schme: really? 01:24:34 ASau: I'm not *that* new. I have been lurking here for months. 01:24:48 "Months" is new for me. 01:24:56 I have logs from 2001 or 2002. 01:24:58 :) 01:25:20 Well at the moment I'm not doing anything with it. I have been off computers for a month or so. But that is what I am poking with, ya. 01:25:36 Which implementation do you use? 01:25:42 schme the screen capture software I was "using" wasn't up to the task. 01:25:52 I'm using gforth. It seems.. ok. 01:25:53 But I know you are correct. 01:25:58 Hm. 01:26:03 problem with it is that it won't build for me on ARM linux. 01:26:12 Weird. 01:26:18 How so? 01:26:27 It should build there. 01:26:31 so I need to use something else later on. But I think when that need pops up I will write one myself. 01:26:36 I get some error.. hmmm.. 01:26:44 I don't quite remember. I will look it up later. 01:26:50 Tried to ask on clf? 01:26:56 what be clf? 01:27:01 comp.lang.forth 01:27:06 Also I play some with ventureforth. 01:27:14 ah My ISP provides no newsserver (: 01:27:18 Since gforth mailing list died, it's the only place to report bugs. 01:27:35 Use eternal-september or other free server. 01:27:44 * schme makes a note. 01:28:26 as for forth I have been off it for years... like most people I went basic -> asm -> forth -> over to C in the 90's -> lisp ;) 01:29:22 A&B posted there quite recently, thus you can get your bug fixed. 01:29:31 cools. I'll check it out. 01:29:32 --- join: Raystm2_ (i=rastm2@c-24-8-232-212.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 01:29:55 now laundry! 01:29:59 My RtF was a bit longer as chain. 01:30:01 I don't know what happened. Some how I power cycled. I hope I don't have a loose connect. 01:30:34 ASau: My intent is to build some hardware and have forth running in that hardware. Seems perfect for the task :) 01:30:40 it combines many of my loves. 01:30:47 soldering and "low level" madness ;) 01:30:55 and making noise! 01:32:31 :) 01:33:10 --- nick: Raystm2 -> Guest78070 01:33:43 --- nick: Raystm2_ -> Rasytm2 01:35:20 --- quit: Guest78070 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 01:36:09 * Rasytm2 watching erlang the movie, 01:36:23 People are fond of showing how a one liner in there language is a page of C. 01:37:04 A one liner in a language that is a page in C is prob'ly supported in the compiler by a page on something ,usually C . 01:40:17 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@LRouen-152-83-15-79.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth 01:40:31 Rasytm2: so what? 01:40:40 Compiler is one-time task. 01:40:58 Not the point. 01:41:24 What is then? 01:42:29 The top of my head. lol :) 01:42:46 C has loads of libraries and that matters. 01:44:37 I just saw someone demonstrate a one liner and compare it with a page of C They could have shown a one line C main () that would have amounted to the same thing. We never see all of the dependencies, therefore anybody can say there oneliner is comparable to a page of C. That was all I was saying. Nothing important, as usual. 01:45:07 there = their nearly every time I type it D'oh. 01:45:50 One line is 56 to 76 characters long in typography. 01:46:04 That's about human perception. 01:46:27 Thus it is invalid to make long "one line" C main routine. 01:46:31 The oneliner I was talking about would have taken up at least three incomplet lines of text. 01:47:08 Consider APL. 01:47:09 About the C... 01:47:26 It has rich set of array processing constructs. 01:47:29 I was saying that I could show just the main() and not all of its dependencies. 01:47:49 The main() could be just one call, so It could be very short. 01:47:56 Any matrix/tensor operation results in extra index variable. 01:48:06 And this is what comparison shows. 01:48:28 Sure, if "main" results in just one call, it shows as power. 01:48:34 I take your word as I've not studied those things. :) 01:49:03 Whether it comes from standard library or embedded language feature, nobody cares. 01:49:27 I'm just now reading Knuth and I'm only half done and have to do it all 7 more times after having done it ten. :) 01:49:28 It's pretty obvious, that having ready construct is plus. 01:50:00 Can't argue with pretty obvious. :) 01:50:49 Almost all my experience with Forth is this: 01:50:59 This? 01:51:03 1. I have a task. 01:51:14 2. I start prototyping it in Forth. 01:51:50 3. I find the need in some not-so-trivial feature, 01:51:53 like MD5, Vorbis, BSD sockets &c &c. 01:52:11 4. I plug the lack of it with FFI. 01:52:13 Oh lack of someone else already having done it? 01:52:29 5. I need some more nontrivial features. 01:52:44 I end up rewriting the whole thing in C or Scheme. 01:52:46 In forth that is. lack of forth software solutions? 01:52:54 I see. 01:53:03 Just because it is so damn hard to rewrite all those things. 01:53:10 in short time. 01:53:14 I wouldn't know. I don't have those kinds of problems. 01:53:26 I'm not a real programmer, I just play one on IRC. 01:53:40 And I'm real one. 01:53:49 I play nearly exclusivey now with a toy colorForth. 01:54:09 Even parsing OGG container wasn't implemented in Forth, 01:54:10 What kinds of stuff do you get to code? 01:54:15 since I was too short of time. 01:54:25 I see. 01:54:41 Though I've managed to complete Netflow 5. 01:54:58 * Rasytm2 looks up nefflow 5 01:55:22 But that's because the format is straightforward. 01:55:31 Anything that isn't, like ELF, is way harder. 01:55:53 Okay Cisco then? 01:55:57 Yes. 01:56:06 I see. 01:56:12 Forth community is broken: 01:56:34 it has amauteurs and high end professionals. 01:56:38 Noone in between. 01:56:55 --- join: ams (n=ams@gnu/inetutils/ams) joined #forth 01:57:23 Gosh I'd love nothing more then to hook up all of my old computers with colorForth using some simple networking. I mean simple is strong enough for me. 01:57:31 that's not broken at all 01:57:52 what you are saying is that pretty much everyone who isn't a beginner is actually quite good 01:58:15 there is only two states, them that know and them that don't :) 01:58:26 Forth community had the culture of placing code into public domain in past. 01:58:37 You can find some really good code from 80s. 01:58:41 not really 01:58:45 only system code 01:58:52 which isn't too interesting really 01:58:58 You can find some application code as well. 01:59:03 some, yes 01:59:20 Forth applications can often be very private. 01:59:37 And this makes Forth completely unattractive to modern professionals. 01:59:48 they aren't terribly useful for 3rd parties often 01:59:59 Generality, but I suppose it has a ring of truth. 02:00:09 Pretty any other language give you application level code. 02:00:10 by "modern professional" you mean code monkey 02:00:28 I think that anyone starts as code monkey. 02:00:37 no 02:01:01 As a scientist, I would tend to the least resistance. IF C was it, there I go, if Forth. A tool is a tool. 02:01:19 one still needs to know ones tools. 02:01:29 a "code monkey" is someone who is a "professional" who all day long all year long does nothing else then write thousands of lines of uninteresting garbage code 02:01:32 Rasytm2: that's not scientific way. 02:02:13 segher: there's still great deal of purely technical problems. 02:02:15 ASau some science is not very scientific. LOL that said. I'm not a scientist so what do I know. 02:02:16 rasytm2: yeah. i end up using C, Forth, or Perl most often 02:02:19 Like maintainance. 02:02:51 Rasytm2: I worked in research lab and have some reviewed publications. 02:02:57 C, elisp, bash/sed/awk, forth for my part.. 02:03:14 can't stand lisp, heh 02:03:33 why not? 02:03:39 dunno 02:03:46 just not my style i guess 02:03:54 * ams loves lisp 02:03:58 ASau I am truly proud to know that about you. I only ever hang out with people that have at the least 10 more IQ points. It's a good habit. :) 02:04:08 ams: sure, i can see why people like it 02:04:37 Rasytm2: Forth has unrealised potential of being really good tool. 02:04:45 wadda I miss? 02:05:02 But to be one it needs some years of active polishing. 02:05:22 Indeed. No arguement there. That has been the statement about Forth for many many years. colorForth too, but no one believes :) 02:05:37 I.e. it needs community with clear goal. 02:05:39 i never got why colorForth is so nice though... 02:05:41 forth, yes... 02:05:42 same is being said about lisp. no one believes there either. 02:06:05 I think the solution is to kill the non-believers. 02:06:11 schme: Lisp has all that polishment that Forth lacks. 02:06:16 schme: Lisp has: 02:06:21 ASau there should be a "linux like" project in Forth to create the Fowser web browser to bring community together. 02:06:21 1. Axiom. 02:06:23 2. Maxima. 02:06:26 3. Reduce. 02:06:30 4. FEMLisp. 02:06:37 5. Emacs 02:06:45 6. ASDF-Install. 02:06:48 emacs is complete shit, and elisp is a sad excuse for a lisp. 02:06:53 schme: oh bollocks 02:07:06 ams: Only reason I use it is for SLIME. 02:07:24 elisp is a damn good lisp for text editing, and extention. 02:07:29 schme: sure, but SLIME is killer feature then. 02:07:30 ASau: and yet.. with all these niceties. lisp lacks a good base of libraries :) 02:07:32 Lisp suffers what every other language including standard Forth, and that is beauricratic bloat. 02:07:50 schme: it has lots of libraries, way more than Forth. 02:08:01 ASau: more than forth does not really mean much ;) 02:08:19 schme: tried cliki.net? common-lisp.net? 02:08:30 Indeed. All langauges of import would have more libaries then Forth, I suppose, by defiintion if by anything. 02:08:40 ASau: Yes, of course. But more popular languages have a lot more. 02:08:49 I can pull in SXML/SXLT and web server in 15 minutes. 02:08:57 That gives me tools to create web interface. 02:09:04 What can I do with Forth? 02:09:13 point is forth can drive those libaries, anything can drive anything with the right "glue". 02:09:20 Oh, yeah, I have to fix sockets first, which I really did. 02:09:46 Then I have to read the source to understand how to stard 02:09:47 web server bundled with gforth. 02:09:52 Yes, I did that too. 02:09:52 ASau: I'm not arguing that forth has anything near the amount of decenct libraries that lisp has. I'm just saying.. that lisp is way behind the mainstream :) 02:10:03 Still far away from SXML/SXLT level. 02:10:10 lisp seems to have more momentum at the moment though. 02:10:32 schme: I've worked in commercial company that produced Lisp-written product. 02:10:50 ASau: congrats. me too. I've also worked commercially with producing forth code. 02:10:51 I wrote commercial code in EmacsLisp. 02:11:00 that sounds horrific! 02:11:11 schme: why? 02:11:18 elisp is very nice actually 02:11:20 Build a robot. What would you use? Build a website. What would you use? How many apples in an orange comparison? 02:11:21 I didn't have any chance with Forth. 02:11:27 ams: I don't enjoy elisp at all. and all interpreters for it are very slow. 02:11:36 schme: there is only one interpreter for it. 02:11:39 Rasytm2: web interface isn't rocket science. 02:11:45 ams: That's funny. I know of atleast 4. 02:12:00 Build a rocket science project. What would you use? 02:12:10 Fortran :D 02:12:14 hehe :) 02:12:17 hey fortran is sweet. 02:12:20 Well said. 02:12:23 schme: well, i'll tell you this: you're a var bad example of a troll. 02:12:40 Damn, I have BLAS, LAPACK, LINPACK, EISPACK, FFTPACK and many other PACKs. 02:12:45 ams: and this because you are not aware of more than one elisp interpreter? 02:12:55 Maybe we need something like cliki for forth. 02:12:58 All in public domain or near that. 02:13:15 'course there is the problem of writing some asdf-install look alike. and making shit work across forths. 02:13:20 Oh, I had pretty nice experience with FSL too. :) 02:13:28 schme: the only one that exists is GNU Emacs, Xemacs is GNU emacs. 02:13:30 We submitted fix back then. :) 02:13:42 schme: Zmacs didn't use elisp, nor did gosling. 02:13:58 ams: I'm sorry. if you look at the elisp engine then xemacs is much different. But still. Because you only know of two doesn't make two others dissappear. 02:14:04 schme: neither did ITS emacs. 02:14:07 There's CLimacs oh how it's spelled. 02:14:13 climacs doesn't do elisp. 02:14:26 climacs does cl... 02:14:35 comparing climacs to emacs is a bit odd.. climacs is a text editor. You woldn't write a mail client in climacs. 02:14:37 Emacs Elisp, If you code with that thing everyday I can see where all of that funtionality, even stuff you rarely use, could be helpful. I've tried it all ( 18 languages in all ) and It's all too much for littlie twinkey headed me. 02:14:42 though you could write one in clim and run it in the same session. 02:15:04 * Rasytm2 loved LOVED DrScheme. :) 02:15:09 I much prefer CL + CLIM over emacs anyday, of course :) 02:15:15 what I'd *really* like is SLIME for vim ;) 02:15:20 Rasytm2: atleast that is a fair opinion, instead of schemes "it sucks"... 02:15:25 especially running code backwards, now that's cool. 02:16:07 BTW, did any of you write LU decomposition in Forth? 02:16:25 you can do that with any program.. gdb has support for doing reverse debugging these days for some platforms. 02:16:43 Cool. :) 02:16:43 ams: My main issues with elisp: closures aren't there. There are "fixes" to make it pretend they are there, but it is so slow. No CLOS. No threads (atleast not in gnumacs and xemacs). No FFI (again atleast not in gnumacs). Just dynamic vars. 02:16:47 ams: Actually I could go on. 02:16:55 ASau LU? 02:17:28 schme: forth: no closures, no clos, no threads, no ffi, i could go on... 02:17:32 schme: forth sucks then? 02:17:33 Rasytm2: sorry, look it up. 02:17:40 ams: Uh.. I was saying I find elisp being a bad lisp. 02:17:48 ams: I have not said forth is a bad lisp. 02:17:55 (also gforth has ffi) 02:17:57 * Rasytm2 has written a half-ass attempt at Lisp in colorForth. Still need a def for atom comparison and eval but already have much list funcionality with just a few lisplike concepts. 02:18:06 Why use a shitty slow lisp when you can use a fast good one? 02:18:10 schme: those things aren't neede for elisp. 02:18:21 ams: threads?? 02:18:24 schme: as for a half hack for closures, noboy is pretending anything about them. 02:18:35 You mean that threads are not needed for emacslisp? 02:18:38 You're kidding. 02:18:48 Louisiana Universicy. I can't see where anybody could code that . 02:18:51 ams: If I want to write a decently fast webserver I think I need better speed than elisp gives me. 02:18:52 need? no, useful? yes. 02:18:56 university. 02:19:04 schme: yeah well, elisp isn't for writting webservers. 02:19:21 i wouldn't write a web server in awk, despite it being a good option for it 02:19:25 you can do web server without closures or threads. 02:19:31 ams: Right. which is my whole point. It's a very restrictive language and I see no point in using it. 02:19:37 ASau: of course I can. 02:19:42 again, web server isn't rocket science. 02:19:46 schme: it is for text editing, and it isn't very restrictive at all. 02:19:59 (there is a webserver written in elisp by the way) 02:20:07 ams: I know. 02:20:10 ams: That's funny. A lot of people seem to claim emacs is for running elisp apps.. like mail client, note organisers. 02:20:13 One in forth too. 02:20:19 and I'm saying I find elisp not very nice to work with. 02:20:27 schme: it is for editing text, mail client is about editing text. 02:20:27 so I don't use it. and everyone wins. 02:20:46 schme: well, you are just ignorant about elisp, nothing wrong with that i guess. 02:20:49 EmacsLisp is really somewhat unusual. 02:20:54 ams: That's bullcrap. How is tetris for "editing text" ? 02:20:55 many people find forth hard to work with... 02:20:56 eh 02:21:04 ignorant because I don't find it a good tool for what I do. That's great. 02:21:10 schme: people do strange things, that is called hacking. 02:21:21 ams it does take practice, for sure. 02:21:30 same with elisp. 02:21:49 * schme does not find elisp hard to work with at all. 02:21:53 Same with any language I suppose. 02:21:56 which is my point, just cause one finds something hard doesn't mean that it automatically sucks, schme obviously hasn't worked with elisp. 02:22:00 schme: maybe we could cooperate and do some OGG and other sound related things in Forth... 02:22:14 ams: That's very funny "I have not worked with elisp". 02:22:14 ASau: that would be cool :) 02:22:28 ASau: that sounds interesting. 02:22:30 ok laundry run. 02:22:45 Used to be a guy in here... Kc5tja was the nick and he's done forth OGG and recently a Blog server . 02:22:55 Ah fresh laundry. :) 02:25:09 A friend of mine has redefined musical harmony _- he calls it Hexagonal Harmony or also Forier Harmony and an instument to play such, all in colorForth. Neat project. 02:27:37 If you are driving machinery, there is nothing like banging and poking around with forth. IF you need your software to run in a world wihere other software exists then often you have to use the very same libraries to do so. In one world you don't need to do more then what is necessary to make the machine work properly, and in another you don't have to do anything that has already been done. /me contemplates this further. 02:30:38 If you have limited resourses: Forth. If you have all the room in the world ________ . 02:31:53 If you need speed, Chip ops. 02:32:28 Rasytm2: if you have limited resources --- no Forth. 02:32:33 Which of course this all boils down to. 02:32:42 ?? 02:32:51 The most hard resource is time. 02:33:02 I suppose that this requires a better def of limited. 02:33:20 You never have enough time. 02:34:02 A qualified Forth programmer and a quallified _______ programmer are both qualified... I don't see a problem with forth in that equation. 02:34:20 You either know what you are doing or you don't. 02:34:27 I know Scheme worse than Forth. 02:34:29 if you don't... don't do that.. 02:34:33 lol :) 02:34:58 To make web interface when I need it, I choose Scheme, 02:34:58 because I have SXML/SXLT there. 02:35:09 And it takes less time to read documentation and get it working, 02:35:12 I see. 02:35:19 even with fixing several bugs in implementation, 02:35:27 than writing analogous stuff in Forth. 02:35:38 Because in Forth I need to write string library first. 02:35:53 You are the actual software engineer, I'm mearly a hobbyist and have to by definition aquiesce to your superior experience. 02:35:54 Parser next and XML parser after then. 02:36:19 This is damn black hole. 02:36:51 Sure, if it is necessary to run XML I can see your point. 02:36:55 ASau, just choose decent forth 02:37:00 eech... 02:37:00 What if XML were not the problem 02:37:04 i hate the word software engineer... 02:37:09 :) 02:37:22 ASau, and you know - there is only one 02:37:26 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:37:29 f[x]: which forth provides XML library? 02:37:35 lol f[x] Mine! :) 02:37:38 And how much does it cost? 02:38:03 Remember: noone will spend money on that, since you get XML support in many languages for free. 02:38:04 the answer to what forth to use is always "mine" :) 02:38:30 Because even XML isn't rocket science these days. 02:38:30 But what if XML were not the problem? 02:39:05 Rasytm2: how do you work around XML? 02:39:12 http://spf.sf.net/docs/devel.en.html#xml 02:39:15 I don't know. 02:39:29 f[x]: port it to FreeBSD first. :) 02:39:49 let bsd get not broken linker first 02:40:07 It has better linker than linux. 02:40:26 or since when linux supports other apis other than native one? 02:40:37 but it can't link perfectly correct elf object file to executable, what a pity 02:41:02 Demonstration, please? 02:41:20 Doesn't SwiftForth or Gforth or win32Forth Cover most of these issues already? I would assume in a world where XML is important that Forth would already have interface. 02:42:15 Rasytm2: I work with embedded and/or server systems. 02:42:26 There's no "win32" there. ;) 02:42:32 sounds like a forth world. 02:42:54 And since we work with BSDs mostly (because of linux limitations), 02:43:07 you have pretty little choice among forth implementations. 02:43:24 Sure, I assume most "boards" for embeding come linux prepared. 02:43:45 I don't know if SwiftForth supports BSDs at all, but even if it did, 02:43:56 I understand your point. 02:44:04 you have much of code for free in other languages than Forth. 02:44:11 Sorry, was not thinking from your working perspective. 02:44:18 indeed. 02:44:50 The forth code is still free, but it's non existant is how I read you. 02:44:57 Thus commercial Forth is loser. 02:45:33 At my current work, we use these libraries: 02:46:20 sndfile for G.711a and RIFF, 02:46:41 PostgreSQL, 02:46:55 f[x] ty for link. I knew about SP-Forth but never encountered it till now. 02:47:16 Chicken Scheme with SXML and SXLT for web interface. 02:47:34 Maybe some others involved, can't recall for now. 02:48:03 lol never even heard of Chicken Scheme :) 02:48:08 So, to do that in Forth, I need at least G.711a implementation. 02:48:11 I'll look that up too. 02:48:20 And that. 02:48:23 RIFF is easy enough. 02:48:30 rigfht I'm back 02:48:36 wb :) 02:48:37 And I did PostgreSQL interface in Forth before. 02:48:39 ASau: So what was that about OGG? 02:48:56 ASau cool. 02:49:03 schme: we can start from latest release and convert in into Forth. 02:49:34 ASau: NOw I am very confused as to what we are talking about :) 02:49:35 schme: proposed Forths to support are: Gforth and pForth. 02:49:58 schme: or redo it in Forth, at your choice. 02:50:12 schme: I mean libogg 02:50:32 right yes. Ok now I'm following. ogg decoding. 02:50:32 * Rasytm2 would like to see a forth_ABNF parser that produced the working protocal. That way you could just tell the software to get the definiton of the protocal in ABNF which many are defined... You get the pic. 02:50:36 schme: I have some code for start. 02:50:40 (or whatever one does with oggs) 02:50:43 schme: encoding as well. 02:50:51 they're containers from what I understand. so maybe it's vbr really. 02:51:10 Sounds like interesting stuff :) 02:51:14 schme: ogg is container, it doesn't have any restriction on what's inside. 02:51:26 We put there text and PCM. 02:51:41 and it is even audio related. so it could tickle my interest nerve :D 02:52:05 I am mostly doing sound generation. software synthesis kind of thing. 02:52:06 ASau, http://www.sendspace.com/file/d7o3dt 02:52:11 not so much encoding and packeting 02:52:12 _IF_ we can get Vorbis or G.711-729 it'd be nice. 02:53:11 ASau: I can't think of a reason it is not doable. I'll start poking around. 02:53:23 * schme feels he really must cut down on his IRC time. So much coding time going to waste :) 02:53:35 f[x]: Makefile or instructions? 02:53:40 included 02:53:57 gcc -o spf4 spf4.o -Wl,forth.ld -ldl -lpthread -v 02:54:00 f[x]: invalid. 02:54:07 There's no libdl. 02:54:20 + you incorrectly use pthreads. 02:54:37 remove -ldl it is not needed for bsd iirc 02:54:48 what is wrong with pthreads? 02:55:06 -lpthread is also not needed. 02:55:10 It should be -pthread afair. 02:55:14 atleast on GNU. 02:55:27 ASau: nope. 02:55:33 Lol WII-Forth. When you need a programming language for a person that uses lots of hand movement to speak. 02:56:02 foody. 02:56:18 f[x]: + you lack .note section. 02:56:47 it is not needed but it is not wrong :) 02:56:49 I don't understand how you're expecting it to work. 02:56:56 It _is_ needed. :) 02:57:09 I meant -lpthread 02:57:40 ASau: pthread support is in the C library on POSIXoid systems. 02:57:47 ASau: -lpthread is just redundant. 02:57:51 same deal for -ldl 02:58:20 (though -ldl has other reasons for redudance) 02:58:27 gnu linker crashes. 02:58:43 ASau: kina doubt that 02:58:46 I see that you're using fixed address in linker script. 02:58:50 That's plain wrong. 02:58:55 See ASLR. 02:59:15 why is it crashing? 02:59:17 I'm not sure that you're allowed to use that address at all. 02:59:31 gcc: Internal error: Segmentation fault (program ld) 02:59:36 lol 02:59:48 ASau: what OS, and what version? 02:59:51 that's a bug in linker 03:00:12 and it was fixed half a year ago (and introduced 2 years ago or so) 03:01:21 why can't one use fixed address for executable? 03:01:32 Refer to ASLR. 03:01:35 ASLR is used primarily for shared objects 03:01:55 I'm not sure that that particular address is allowed to use for user programs. 03:02:08 Did you check that? 03:02:15 Can you point into documentation or source? 03:02:25 ASau: nothing wrong with using fixed addresses. 03:02:28 I can point into working binary :) 03:02:40 f[x]: point then :) 03:02:48 spf.sf.net :) 03:02:56 I doubt you can, since you don't have .note section 03:03:24 ASau: ? 03:03:44 what is this .note section? 03:03:57 it just contains some random info. 03:04:07 and it isn't a important section 03:04:08 Every program must have .note.netbsd.ident section, if it wants to run. 03:04:17 ASau: you on netbsd? 03:04:20 Yes. 03:04:25 ok, switch OS then. 03:04:30 netbsd is violating ELF standards. 03:04:38 see what I am talkign about :) 03:04:41 In what part? 03:04:49 it is perfectly valid ELF object 03:04:53 bsd can't link that 03:04:56 ASau: .note is not a require section of any binary. 03:04:58 whose problem is this? 03:05:07 Yours. 03:05:24 (that is why it is called .note) 03:05:27 ams, thanks for clarifying that, I am still seeking for the ELF.pdf 03:05:31 (it is notes about the binary, like ident info) 03:05:33 'Cause many software runs pretty nice here. 03:05:42 ASau, broken argument 03:05:49 ASau: yes, and then some doesn't, .note is not a requrie section. 03:06:04 Broken software doesn't, sure. :) 03:06:11 ASau, admit you are defending bsd because of some zealotic reasons 03:06:14 ASau: right, netbsd is broken, good that you argee. 03:06:40 f[x]: no, because it is much more convenient than everything else. 03:06:45 there are _proper_ ways to get info about "ident" crap in an elf 03:07:01 netbsd adopted ELF, ELF standard is clear on this point, netbsd violates ELF 03:07:09 pretty simple as for me 03:07:18 --- join: GeDaMo (n=gedamo@212.225.115.96) joined #forth 03:07:23 Proof is yet to be seen. 03:07:43 ASau: okie, i'll bite... 03:07:48 ASau: prove to us that netbsd is not broken. 03:07:58 you have not shown any prove that it is actually doing as advertised 03:08:14 ams: pretty much software runs without problems. 03:08:44 ASau: that is not proof. 03:08:45 If SPF is exception of this rule, then SPF is the first suspect. 03:08:52 ASau: please prove that netbsd is not broken, or shut up. 03:09:00 ASau, where is your logic? Or did you get humanitarian education? 03:09:08 ams: it is obvious, what's exception of rule. 03:09:21 thus it is first to check. 03:09:33 ASau: spf works on windows, GNU, some BSDs, only platform it doesn't work on seems to be netbsd... 03:09:46 ASau, it is easy to check that spf4.o is valid ELF 03:09:47 ASau: the execption of the rule is not spf, since it runs on a plethora of platforms, all quite diverse... 03:09:51 ams: gforth works on windows, gnu, bsds. 03:09:55 ASau: thus, it must be netbsd that is broken. 03:09:57 NetBSD included. 03:09:58 ASau: yes, and? 03:10:01 Thus, SPF is broken. 03:10:06 uhm... 03:10:07 ok... 03:10:23 12:10 /ignore ASau 03:10:33 If you state that NetBSD violates some standard, prove it. 03:10:33 i don't have time with idiotic trolls. 03:10:52 One doesn't prove the lack of violation, refer to logic. 03:11:00 Cf. "negative proof". 03:11:10 it is a bug to barf on a non-existant PT_NOTE section, period, end of story. 03:11:25 that same logic has "pretty much software runs without problem" argument? 03:12:12 Did you study logic? 03:12:21 sure 03:12:33 and I can read too 03:12:39 Ever learnt what "negative proof" is about? 03:12:50 so how about those lakers? 03:13:13 of course 03:13:15 There is no negative proof. 03:13:17 * GeDaMo thinks "This can't be #forth, there are people /talking/" 03:13:27 lol ;) 03:13:32 :P 03:14:04 f[x]: Then you should know what you ought to prove. 03:14:30 I showed taht multiple times already 03:14:42 object file is valid - right? 03:14:43 That bug in GNU compiler? 03:15:25 please tell - is spf4.o valid ELF? 03:15:50 No idea, the burden is on you. 03:16:32 PT_NOTE is not a required section of an ELF. 03:17:01 that it is easy - I state that it is correct :) 03:17:11 Prove it. 03:17:49 Anyway, what your example shows is the bug in gcc. 03:17:49 it is valid according to the standard 03:18:08 Not in BSD code. 03:18:25 I suppose ( my opinion on this has no bearing save it is entered into the log so that it looks like a participate) IF software A works on set B the set of all OS's save one that it does not, Then I have to assume that it is easily fixed. If Software A runs on set B save for one OS becase the One OS is not using a starndard proceedure included in set B, then... 03:18:31 I don't bother with checking whose bug it is 03:18:44 netbsd fails to link perfectly valid ELF file 03:19:13 if there is another (purely true BSD) linker - try it out 03:19:58 well, it is lunch, i should be hacking. 03:20:30 * Rasytm2 just ate a very decent lunch. Now it's time to stab my belly with needles. :) 03:20:39 or a needle. 03:21:21 diabetic? 03:21:26 ya.. 03:21:38 Is loader script you provide described in standard? 03:21:43 Went undiagnosed for a very very long time and I died at work. Now I don't work. 03:22:07 I try not to die either. 03:22:26 nope 03:22:53 Thus, you're using non-standard feature of gnu loader and it fails. 03:22:55 f[x]: don't waste your time mate 03:23:13 And this is BSD fault, of course :D 03:23:27 ASau, failed again. It is described in ld docs and it is just an instruction to the linker 03:24:28 gcc -pthread -o spf4 spf4.o -v 03:24:31 Links nice. 03:24:44 Sweet! you got it going ASau? 03:24:52 but it won't work :) 03:24:56 :( 03:25:07 Sure, because you violate OS API. 03:25:22 prove ;) 03:25:23 All OS API or just netBSD API ? 03:25:44 ( like I need to know ) lol 03:26:19 moreover, what API you are talking about at the link stage? 03:26:32 I suppose this is the definition of "Starved for Entertainment" Lol. not to speak bad of you kind men, but what the heck am I doing here. lol :) 03:26:45 It links nice if you strip non-standard linker script. 03:27:24 strip all ld scripts from your system, reboot, and then we'll talk 03:27:25 The resultant program violates memory protection. 03:27:30 ASau Have you just added NetBSD to the list of OS's that run that software? 03:27:51 ld script is there for reason 03:28:07 http://www.xkcd.com/386/ 03:28:34 f[x]: all loader scripts are in test suites. 03:28:55 OS doesn't use them. 03:29:05 And it runs nice :) 03:29:06 GeDaMo ROLF man :) 03:29:28 :D 03:29:29 what about software that is loaded by the OS? 03:29:43 GeDaMo: the problem is that it isn't even evening. 03:30:09 f[x]: never met loader scripts in practice. 03:30:11 You only sleep at night? You're so traditional :P 03:30:25 Maybe some crazy software uses it, but it's minority. 03:30:28 GeDaMo it's usually me, but i'm fond of saying I only hang out where the IQ percent is at least 10 more points then me and therefore by definition i'm always wrong and am used to it and even benefit. 03:30:35 (If it uses at all.) 03:30:42 ASau, discover - ld uses them internally 03:31:15 Rasytm2: accepting that you're wrong means you're more likely to learn :P 03:31:28 f[x]: Then ld is smarter than you, it manages to write correct ones. 03:31:35 True that. 03:31:58 ASau, wow, so much times you said nonsense and never tried to prove it 03:32:12 this script is of course valid :) 03:32:15 f[x]: it is obvious that this system runs fine without ld scripts. 03:32:50 You even reply to my words, which reach you without manualy written ld scripts involved. 03:33:18 from now on I'll call segv fine 03:33:40 "*(int*)NULL=0;" is valid operator. 03:33:57 It doesn't mean it works. 03:34:12 and it runs fine 03:34:14 gg 03:34:27 You seem to follow this logic. 03:34:29 bye f[x] nice to meet. 03:37:19 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:43:59 Okay, cool found a plus for using colorForth, readable bytecode in dump. I suppose that doesn't make up for any kind of lack . :) 03:46:43 I saw ASau's point ealier about what software to use under constraints relating to time/money and the like. I use colorForth because it's a brand new ancient canvas that no-one has tread upon and i can invent what ever I want because I don' t have any constraints at all to consider. 03:47:25 I can see where that would NOT be conducive to productive, profitable, code. 03:49:41 I said earlier that a tool is a tool but a chrome-vandium wrench is equivenlent to a stainless steel wrench until you try to reach upper bounds of the capabilities and the CV wrech breaks. 03:53:45 Often the first thing a wrench is needed to do is to break a fastener's hold and that can tend towards the limits. This is when we wish we started with the stainless steel. After that inial losening, anything, even fingers alone, works. 03:53:49 where is this going. LOL 03:54:52 You don't have to be going anywhere in particular in order to enjoy the journey :P 03:54:58 :) 03:55:34 Often the problem with picking the right software tool is not a cut and dry as the early choise of wrench. 03:56:04 You get deep into a problem before you find out your language might have been better chosen. 03:57:40 then that is a problem witih the language. 03:57:48 a language should be able to be adapted to its task. 03:57:53 forth and lisp do that nicely. 03:57:57 most other languages don't. 03:58:56 I suppose I was going ( and had started to ) try to move ASau's point to where he could see that often, the problem domain as it exists in the current world is easily by passed with better thougth. CM proves this often when he codes forth but then he is a fully qualified mathmatician and programmer that invented such a paradigm. 03:59:41 ght ght ght ght ght ght ght <<----- G H T practice 04:00:56 Knuth is pretty clear about how to determine computability of tools. 04:02:25 All those summa's are still a tad over my head. I endeavor to learn :) 04:03:39 Rasytm2: sure, it may be passed with better thought, 04:04:00 but the problem stays still: you have to be compatible with others. 04:04:02 Often one can not move tho, and then there we are. :) 04:04:11 agreed 04:04:36 colorForth may be nice, and you may have JPEG decoder there. 04:04:44 But JPEG decoder isn't enough. 04:05:02 PNG :) 04:05:20 I mean it's a PNG decoder not Jpeg unless i've missed something recent. 04:05:26 Even FreeDOS has ways to communicate with the world. 04:05:29 Encoder really. 04:05:47 hm... any barcode reader forth hacks? 04:05:48 colorForth lacks that ability. 04:06:15 ams: you'll here usual in this land answer now 04:06:17 DIY :D 04:06:21 :( 04:06:33 I've had email conversation using colorforth as the text editor and unix as the net client. 04:07:05 I've processed HTML in colorForth... 04:07:10 wrote a lisp. 04:07:15 Running colorForth hosted may be compromise, 04:07:22 but this raises other questions. 04:07:38 Yes, indeed ASau, and I do run a windows version of cf as well. 04:08:23 that reminds me. Co-lisp-forth requires native testing. 04:08:42 works in windows okay. Still no eval() yet. I will do it. 04:09:06 I just use the forth for evaluation currently. 04:09:20 obviously D'oh. 04:11:14 You know, often ( how often) a forth coder need only return to code created to add a feature or correct a situation in a new process. I mean to say that once a Forth coder codes something like a server, it may never need to be revisited. 04:12:28 Rasytm2: that isn't anything very special to forth... 04:12:44 I suppose this is because if the coder is also the USER then there is an end to the process that is equal to the coders level of satisfation. That process does not satisfy the greater user community. 04:12:49 i've got code that i use every day for the past 10 years, and i've not done anything spectacular to it ... 04:13:04 ams not special but still an attribute. 04:13:33 it is code i depend on for my daily work... would get quite pissed if it didn't work :-) 04:13:33 I'm sure you do. 04:13:40 :) 04:14:11 a few years ago i was thinking about refactoring the stuff... 04:14:13 what do you code ams? 04:14:17 ya? 04:14:22 looked at it hard, and couldn't find any decent way of doing it... 04:14:29 Rasytm2: here lies fault of each and every language considered "write-only". 04:14:30 it does what it is supposed to do, that is it. 04:14:47 Pythonistas bring it into their motto, afair. 04:14:55 You don't write code for computer. 04:15:01 (i think im ight have renamed a variable to something sensible, but that is it...) 04:15:04 You write code for human. 04:15:07 ASau only a programmer is write only. A good program by a good programmer is readable and documented. 04:15:10 Rasytm2: me? anything, and everything. 04:15:22 cool ams :) 04:15:56 was pondering about how much work it would be to make a barcode reader in forth. 04:16:11 Perl re strikes me as wrte-only and then that breaks my last statement to ASau. 04:16:20 given an image, spit out any and all abrcods it has. 04:16:28 Hm. 04:16:41 That may take a _lot_ of time. 04:16:46 ams Fedex uses such a thing. Hard-- relative? :) 04:17:13 well, i suck at image processing.. 04:17:19 graphics is a no go for me usually... 04:17:26 i did write one in C.. 04:17:36 but it used a lot of liraries for the image stuff 04:17:48 You can try to FFI... 04:18:03 * Rasytm2 is disassembleing vIdle and 3d visual Python to do 3d in colorForth. 04:18:25 studying on the web and looking into stuff like old DOOM code. :) 04:18:27 eh, why? 04:18:32 why disassemble... 3d stuff is easy 04:19:09 Is it? I am only beginning the project and still don't know the requirments of even if it can be done. I assume it can. 04:19:25 Ray trace is something i need to learn next. 04:19:37 trivial. 04:19:46 (and this is from a person who hates graphics) 04:19:47 cool, that make me feel better :) 04:19:57 Do you? 04:20:16 yes, when it comes to programming. 04:20:41 are you the one that want's to do sound? 04:20:55 no wait. ASau was talking to someone about ogg. 04:21:28 my client sometimes doesn't let me go back that high in the conversation. I suppose I could open a log. 04:21:40 It was schme. 04:21:45 ty :) 04:22:00 no 04:22:05 Huh? 04:22:06 ty too 04:22:17 yikes we poked schme :) wb 04:22:22 hello. 04:22:30 waddaimiss? 04:22:46 I should turn highlighting off :( 04:22:51 The ramblings of an old man with a young hobby? :) 04:23:02 woho! 04:24:17 Lol when your penis no longer works there is only mental masterbation left. :) sorry if I offend. 04:24:39 BUT you get more done! :) 04:25:01 There's viagra. 04:25:07 I should put that on my resume. 04:25:12 viagra? :P 04:25:12 I am viagra proof. 04:25:17 ehehe. 04:25:25 ok I'm not sure I want to understand all this. 04:25:29 no lol that i don't waste time masterbating 04:25:42 Rasytm2: What makes colorforth a nicer thing to use than some other random forth? 04:26:14 I am honestly very curious. 04:26:25 yeah, me too... 04:26:35 I guess it demands a colourful output device :S 04:26:35 i can't stand colorforth to be honest, from the little i have seen of it that is 04:27:39 Nothing. It's absolutely horribly sparce. and that is why i'm attracted. there is only the kernel, a small compiler, and even smaller ( the smallest i've seen ) interpreter and just a couple of included applications. everything else I did myself and I can prove it. 04:28:07 you mean that the two insn to write next is not enough? 04:28:17 I've started to do some Euler probs with it and it's neat for that. 04:28:18 end result of my current hackery will only have a not too big LCD display.. unless one hooks something else up. So I dunno if that will even work well with colorforth. 04:28:39 Rasytm2: Yes, that is very attractive features for me. I'm just worried about the colours :) 04:29:24 (and there's the obvious fact that it is x86 :P) 04:29:29 a bit of a downer! 04:29:32 ams some reason I don't parse your last. 04:30:26 Rasytm2: i mean, how does that differ from any other forth? 04:30:41 every other forth comes with more. 04:30:48 that I know of . 04:30:53 someone already did it. 04:30:57 i just get a damn headache from all the colours 04:31:16 I will need to take a look at it again at some time 04:31:23 Rasytm2: well, fine, but every forth is as small as well... 04:31:33 now laundry run! 04:31:34 * Rasytm2 knows of atleast one colorForth editor written in colorForth with colorBlind mode, which makes the forth look like old forth. 04:32:54 I like it because I can read the dumps. Not that i do that very often any more but when learning, this was a tad helpful. 04:33:11 I like it because I think differnetly "in" it. 04:34:00 well, i don't get it... i don't see the charm of colourforth. 04:34:12 My solutions to problems are often cheep and clever and not at all considered something professionals would call good form or what ever, but it's the fact that I can produce in it faster then any other forth . 04:34:13 i can read the dumps of any decent forth as well 04:34:35 ams no real coder would. It has to be used to be appriciated. 04:34:52 appreciated? ya that spelling I think. 04:34:57 read dumps? 04:35:18 Well, I don't read the dumps any more, but I can. 04:36:02 do it all the time, and for much more convulted things than simple forth words 04:36:13 The language is bytecoded therefore each 32bitWord is a Tagged Token that if you know the encription, not difficult, you can read it like in the editor in color. 04:36:40 Prob'ly why CM did it. He was, after all writing sourceless programs. 04:37:45 ams there is not a 1 to 1 relationship between most languages and the way it is stored in memory. 04:37:53 you already know this. 04:38:18 but in colorForth there is. a word is a token and it's 32 bits. 04:38:20 uhm, sure there is. 04:38:40 anyway, i'm outa here. 04:38:53 most languages go thru some sort of compiler that completely re-wrties the code, or am i somehow not correct about this? 04:38:58 cool :) 04:39:03 ty for convo. 04:39:49 When i wrte colorForth, i am the compiler. 04:40:13 The tokens are each a part of the compiler and I am the optimizer. 04:42:32 I suppose the only reason to use colorForth is to see if things can be done very simply. 04:43:19 the only real reason to use colorForth is to understand the new multi-chip paradigm and to be able to code the cores. 04:43:43 I'm learning that as quickly as possible. 04:44:13 I can colorForth with the best of them. but I still don't know how to do multi-core programming. 04:44:36 But when I do, I'll be a rare breed. 04:45:21 and rare breeds ( when they get hired) get payed for their expertise. 04:46:32 in these multi-cores, what would be considered the part of the language that boots up with colorforth, with a couple of exceptions, IS the chip-core. 04:46:56 I wonder, when they're damn going to fix FILE set in standard? 04:47:02 In the beginning there was the word. And not the word is the chip. 04:47:10 not = now. 04:47:23 --- quit: GeDaMo ("Leaving.") 04:48:17 Does colorForth support APIC? 04:48:24 ?? 04:48:28 This is not new. Nothing about colorForth is new. BUT it comes from a man that has had to use Forth longer then anyone else and has solved every kind of computing problem one can think of, and if THAT guy says it do-able, who am I to argue. 04:49:17 We program the NorthBridge directly. 04:49:27 we program South thru north. 04:50:05 Tim Neitz has done a multi-tasking colorFOrth that uses interrupts. 04:50:20 He coded an entire interrupt suit. 04:50:24 suite even. 04:50:46 we talk to the net card directly, and the graphics accelerator as well. 04:51:12 Any source available? 04:51:32 Lets see I believe I have a copy to show you.... please stand by. 04:51:34 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 04:51:37 Can I boot it with multiboot loader? 04:51:48 From CD? 04:52:21 http://www.dnd.utwente.nl/~tim/colorforth/Raystm2/mv050314.html 04:52:53 We don't use cd because we write back to the image to save it but we do use USB thumbstick memory and boot off of that. 04:52:58 Well... This is of no use to me. 04:53:13 Your welcome :) 04:53:16 sorry. 04:53:31 Again Forth problem: 04:53:38 it is incompatible with pretty everything. 04:53:52 a cd can use the forth floppy image to boot I understand. 04:54:07 It can be boot from a grun loader I'm certain. 04:54:12 grub even 04:54:16 I can setup qemu to try it out. 04:54:28 cool. 04:54:33 But this limits what colorForth can have access to. 04:54:43 Is that so? 04:54:49 Again, I need something comprehensible. 04:55:09 Right, I understand. You dont' have the time. I get that. 04:55:34 Yes, I spend too much time on unrelated stuff already. 04:55:50 I'd like to spend more, but you know, 04:55:59 Oh wait lol the entire first 18 blocks is just crap from the boot section. 04:56:04 there're only 24 hours and I need to sleep from time to time. 04:56:06 you have to go down the page to get to code. 04:56:12 lol :) 04:56:47 the byte code html-er program doesn't translate the boot/kernel section. SOrry for confusion. 04:57:18 I'm of a mind to get that bytecode HTML-er to just provide a listing of the asm that builds the kernel. 04:57:43 ok I'm back. 04:57:43 then it could tack that ontop of the html bytecode. 04:57:59 Wb 04:58:05 * schme reads the sb. 04:59:10 "SB" as "sound blaster"? 04:59:16 scrollback 04:59:29 never gonna buy no soundblaster ever. I am very not happy with creative. 04:59:34 The new htmler- not used in that pick of my own software -- does a better job of creating links through-out the page to make dependencies link to each other. 04:59:42 even if they actually started producing quality audio cards I would not buy it. 05:00:13 I'm not sure anyone's going back to anything other than HDA. 05:00:21 Oh yeah one us colorCoders is driving his DAC and therefore his MIDI equipment with colorForth. 05:00:27 The river has no return. 05:00:32 HDA ? 05:00:36 that intel onboard shite? (: 05:00:39 high definition audio. 05:00:44 well sure. 05:00:57 I'm convinced creative are doing high def audio. 05:01:13 Rasytm2: that is interesting with the MIDI 05:03:31 indeed it is. He's using it to re-define the scale to as many as 512 notes in the octave. Typically it's 63 notes numbered odd from 1 to `127, as odd notes are the harmony and even is the dischord. but somewhere in the neighborhood of under 512 distinctive notes in a scale is hard for a human to discern between notes. 05:05:11 sounds more like a bird chirp then a differenciation between notes at that density. 05:05:28 Midi does atleast 1000. 05:05:43 prob'ly something binary like 1024 05:07:43 The implicatons of all of this is that a new keyboarded instrument can be fashioned to allow for perfect harmony thru out the modulation from key to key. You may or may or may not know but the A the 6fh note in the key of C is NOT the A the second note in the key of G. 05:07:51 It just don't divide that way. 05:08:30 But this new system allows for the two A's to co-exist with-out that terrible beating our ears take when we listen to modern western music. 05:10:06 western harmony is an aquired taste like beer or whiskey or cigarrets. and just as bad for you lol :) 05:11:13 Rasytm2: Yes. 512 notes in an octave is beyond human hearing. We have enough problem with 12. 05:12:12 Rasytm2: I do not know what you mean with " but the A the 6fh note in the key of C is NOT the A the second note in the key of G". In the tempered western scale it sure is. 05:12:14 TO make this work, music is increased from 5 prime to 7 or even up to 13 prime and this means the notes relating to the 7 11 and 13 harmonic frequencies are added ( three entire scales as well ) to the scale. 05:12:37 yees. 05:12:43 high school music theory ;) 05:13:03 You can do the math all day and still come up with different frequencies for G's A verses C's. 05:13:22 Not in the tempered scale. 05:13:34 good thing music is not math! 05:13:41 a fiction, an agreement. Not harmonic but discordant. 05:13:47 but it IS math. 05:13:56 of course it is not math. 05:14:25 You can use math to describe aspects of music, sure thing. 05:14:39 that does not make music == math true 05:14:45 math is music is math. 05:14:48 That's the point. 05:14:55 absolutely not. 05:14:59 music is not math, and math is not music. 05:15:15 we don't hear math in western music because the math is not used correctly. We fudge it to fit. 05:15:28 That's just balls. 05:15:39 math is not something one "hears". It just a tool to describe the world. 05:15:45 But if we did, we'd have a hearing appreciation for math. 05:15:48 and saying music is math.. is just silly. 05:16:08 How is math == the fingering technique of a good flautist? 05:16:10 * Rasytm2 not ashamed to be silly but.. 05:16:16 that is surely a vital part of music. 05:16:46 and saying music == math.. How come no one is using a drum set to do some fancy set theory or what heck, eh? 05:16:49 Wait, didn't we learn that type of Math with deCartes and Newton? 05:17:09 It is quite obvious, to me atleast, that math != music 05:17:33 It is quite obvious that music <> physics either. 05:17:39 really? 05:17:48 math is just a tool to describe things. 05:18:04 music is the inspiration for Physics, I know that doesn't make them equal... 05:18:15 why is no one using a violin to solve equations? 05:18:16 Music is just a tool to describe things. 05:18:17 because math != music. 05:18:46 That's subtle point. 05:19:28 You may find some weird problem, where diff.eq. arises that may be easily solved by/on violin. 05:19:34 ehehehe. 05:19:35 Right. 05:19:50 but it is horse shit to say that music == math. 05:20:05 Math can come in handy when doing music theory though, that's a given 05:20:35 and very much when generating noise ;) 05:20:37 --- join: Raystm2 (i=rastm2@c-24-8-232-212.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 05:21:33 forier transforms can be performed. Math can descibe physical motion, Music is nothing more then vibration. 05:22:18 Rasytm2: sure one can think of music as vibrations. if one just thinks about the sound. And you can use math to describe said motion. That does not make math == the actual motion. 05:22:21 vibration is totally predictable by math. 05:22:23 BTW, when doing our RT sound recognition we've found that least squares are faster than FFT. 05:22:44 Which I find strange even today. 05:22:46 Rasytm2: Yes, that it is. That does not make the vibration == math. 05:23:07 the pi vibrates. 05:23:20 Rasytm2: I'll also argue that music is more than just vibrations. 05:23:25 but oh well. 05:23:29 I need to make me some more coffee 05:24:01 coffee ought to be provided free by the state 05:24:34 I disagree. 05:24:39 And I would say that western music is totally ( for the most commercial part ) predictable with math. Simon Cowel knows mathmatically how much the new star will earn from the proper usage of a subset of all things music related. 05:24:46 Coffee may as well be banned. 05:24:52 It doesn't make difference. 05:24:57 lol coffee/state. good one :) 05:25:03 Rasytm2: That is a very odd statement saying that western music is predictable. 05:25:30 The statement is odd, but the fact stays: 05:25:30 Rasytm2: Give me the equation to tell me what the next laurie anderson album will sound like. 05:25:39 western music is way less variational. 05:25:52 way less variational than what? 05:25:53 variative 05:26:00 I find a lot of variation in just bach's work alone. 05:26:01 Than, say, Balkan. 05:26:06 Or Latin. 05:26:14 Totally predictable. I don't hear songs on the radio any more. I've been a professional musician, had songs published and performed and I tell you now that it is all formula based. 05:26:36 Rasytm2: Seems very odd to say that all western music is totally predictable by math. That is what I'm saying. 05:26:59 All of music is described with numbers The Tonic is the one the Dominant is the 5 the subdominant the 4. 05:26:59 Rasytm2: Sure a lot of the radio pop music is formula based. But that is just a small subset of "western music". 05:27:14 sure that is again high school music theory. 05:27:27 I have no idea how you can use that to predict what the next marcus miller album will sound like. 05:29:00 also most cultures have formulaic music when it comes to the pop music in said culture. That is very much not unique for 'western music'. 05:29:21 Go to india, you find formulaic music. Go to the native swedes, you find formulaic music. 05:30:12 --- join: Raystm2_ (i=rastm2@c-24-8-232-212.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 05:30:12 I can sit down right now and make a western song without using the dominant or subdominant. How do you predict what it will sound like, eh? 05:30:34 Minor. 05:30:53 Dont use those majors and you are left with the minors. 05:31:07 that's balls! 05:31:47 I just picked up a guitar and played B#dim fifteen times in a messed up rythm. Guaranteed western music. It's all in the "western scale", and you did not predict what it sounded like at all. 05:32:32 How many chords? key of C wester usually three chords you took the two majors and left me with Em Am and Dm the 3rd the 6th and the 2nd which is perfectly okay and is also the three most important chords of the relitive minor key to C of Am and is totaly country and western-able if you will. 05:33:04 Rasytm2: Just the one chord. B#dim all the way. 05:33:25 Rasytm2: Yes. it is "usually" like that in the pop music of western culture. But you are making claims to be able to predict all western music. 05:33:59 Great. B#Dim is really 4 chords based on the 4 notes that make up that chord, every time you move the diminished up three frets you get the same chord. 05:34:09 Rasytm2: I am not moving anything. 05:34:20 B#dim is Hdim in sane notation, right? 05:34:26 You don't have to. The chord IS moving enharmonically. 05:34:33 Rasytm2: I am waiting for you to predict what this song sounds like, ie. what rhythm I am using to play the chords, and what melody is used with it. 05:34:39 Rasytm2: it is not moving anywhere. 05:34:48 ASau: B#dim would be H#dim in stupid notation. 05:34:55 ASau: which much resembles Cdim 05:35:27 H is a chord name but I was of the impression that it was speaking to Bb. 05:35:39 H is dumb. it's a typo. 05:35:44 B is what it is. 05:35:53 No, it's a chord in classical harmony. 05:35:56 I was speaking B#, or H# if you prefer typo notation. 05:36:03 no. It is a typo made by some monk ages ago. 05:36:08 lol :) 05:36:09 H# is C in sane notation. 05:36:18 ASau: H# / B# is very much not C. 05:36:21 --- quit: Rasytm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:36:32 Anyway, "dim" isn't characteristic for western music. 05:36:35 but this all dun matter. 05:36:53 ASau: I am well inside the western music scales. 05:37:00 Half diminished is the leading tone chord. 05:37:12 and even if I was doing 'standard pop progression' you couldn't predict what this shit would sound like. 05:37:23 A full diminished chord appears in Melodic and Harmonic scales. 05:37:25 Raystm2_: Ya that's classical theory. That's not how I'm using it. 05:37:26 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote closed the connection) 05:37:26 and modes 05:37:32 yees. 05:37:39 I'm sure everyone knows their high school music theory :P 05:38:01 I don't think everyone does. Everyone in here does for sure. :) 05:38:14 yes. THose are the ones I was referring to. 05:38:15 ehehehe 05:38:57 ok 05:39:00 now I need to cook more food! 05:39:01 Mathmatically, to predict what you will play and how you will play it, we get into infinte theory of possiblites. 05:39:12 yum 05:39:27 Raystm2_: You're the one saying you can predict what all western music sounds like. Dunno how that works with infinity ;) 05:39:37 ya. 05:39:43 some of those oysters coming up. 05:39:51 I did say it is predictable. I never claimed to have those skills :) 05:39:53 now you two get off IRC nad write some code :P 05:39:53 evening :) 05:40:00 lol :) 05:40:11 hi gogonkt 05:40:25 I can't write code with my nad. 05:40:31 Or the other one. 05:40:35 nad? 05:40:42 I just dont teabag like that. 05:41:04 what is 'nad'? 05:41:14 quoteing schme "now you two get off IRC nad write some code. " 05:41:42 Nad is most certainly AND in this case but a 'nad' is short for gonad. 05:41:58 :) 05:44:10 Today, people use software typically searching the internet for trends to use to write music any more. That system is obviously totaly mathmatical. 05:44:29 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:45:00 It searches word usage, beats and tempo, what other artists are doing. A tally. 05:48:07 schme btw, from our 'high school' theory, we know that by definition a diminished chord with a 3b-5b-7b is a minor chord as I said earlier and therefore I did predict atleast what type of chord you would play form the few hints that you gave. 05:48:38 Not a real good defence but then I'm working with this mind :) 05:49:26 I certainly could not predict the timing of the second strum if you will but the first is a certainty. 05:50:40 If music was not mathmatical it could not be digitized, is that true by definition? 05:54:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_and_mathematics one never need argue on the internet when wikipedia can do it for you :) 05:56:09 Math and Music: A Primer http://members.cox.net/mathmistakes/music.htm 05:56:16 :) 05:57:38 There is much talk about the relationship between mathematics and music, which mostly consists of speculation by those on the outside, concerning some of the obvious things they have in common. Yet there isn't much said by those on the inside, and as a former student of mathematics and a lifetime musician, I will attempt to shed some light on the subject. I think that the degree that you can understand the relationship between music and 05:57:42 from http://www.woodpecker.com/writing/essays/math+music.html 05:58:59 Am I right enough yet, dear ego mine. lol Sorry I suppose this can end now. 05:59:14 Seeing that there is no longer any op-position. 06:00:12 Saying that math and music are not each is like saying 'I don't know math or music" in my ears. 06:06:54 hello. 06:07:29 Hi :) 06:08:52 right. 06:09:06 Saying that math == music is, to me, like saying "I can't tell one thing from another". 06:09:15 lol :) 06:10:05 Raystm2_: That essay you linked to at woodpecker.com also says the two are not the same thing. 06:10:19 Does it lol I never read it. :) 06:10:32 just the top paragraph that made my point. 06:10:37 Raystm2_: If they indeed were the same thing then why on earth would we have two seperate words? 06:10:38 reading.... 06:10:59 that top paragraph clearly says they are not the same thing. It claims there is a relation between the two things. 06:11:05 if there is a relation they need to be different. 06:11:33 two seperate words... jerk and ass are two different words but i'm always both. Water is ICE STEAM and LIQUID but it's one thing in three forms. 06:11:37 two things that are identical does not have stuff in common. 06:11:52 ice is not water. ice is made of water. 06:11:52 lol 06:11:58 lol 06:12:02 you so funny 06:12:12 what ice and steam has in common is water. 06:12:15 music is made of math 06:12:21 absolutely not. 06:12:24 math has musical properties. 06:12:47 but even if math had "musical properties" and music was made of math. 06:12:52 that does not make them the same thing. 06:13:04 What you are saying there is "ice is made of water, therefor water == ice" 06:13:54 and regardless of all this you can't make stuff out of math. Math is not a physical thing. 06:13:58 if I start with pure water, no mater the temperature I only have pure water. 06:15:20 ... 06:15:21 and? 06:15:32 If I have math, I can show the elements of music. If I have music I can show the math. 06:15:45 that's bullshit. 06:16:16 How is it possible that that statement qualifies so highly in your ranking as bullshit? 06:16:21 What use is math in the technique of tapping a note on a guitar? 06:16:26 all you can describe is the actual sound. 06:16:29 and theory. 06:16:55 and saying that math == music is just.. so messed up. 06:17:04 everything about a guitar is math as well. Every part is mathmatically chosen to work together properly. 06:17:20 yes you can describe aspects of music using math. You can also describe how a tree will grow using math. Does that make the tree == math? 06:17:41 uh yes. One has used math as a tool to create an instrument to fit a specific scale, sure thing. 06:17:49 that does not make it so the guitar is made out of math. 06:17:55 Math is not a thing you can make shit out of. 06:18:01 infact I now endeavor that the entire universe is the concatenation of mathmatically proven particals and there fore all things are math. 06:18:20 That's just balls, and you know it. 06:18:40 math is just a tool we use to describe things. You can't make things out of an "idea". 06:19:38 in an infinte universe by definition ideas ARE things and nothing is made with out the inteligence to make it. All man made things are very obviously once ideas. 06:19:50 ... 06:20:13 with math not having any form of physical representation. You are not making things out of a theory. 06:20:15 You make things out of things. 06:20:28 I can go as far as saying music is vibrations, and you can use math to describe said vibrations. 06:20:30 in an infinite universe of unpredicable possiblities there must by definiton exist a place where this is so. 06:20:33 that does not make math == vibration. 06:20:44 good thing we don't live in such a place. 06:21:03 There's result of Andronov or someone else in that domain about vibrations. 06:21:09 all things are vibration. our brain vibrates the electricty that creates math. 06:21:27 You can't restore the shape of drum from acoustic spectrum. 06:21:43 I have *no* idea how one can even think that vibration == math. 06:21:50 Now that's plain stupid. 06:22:07 There're a whole lot of processes in brain, that don't involve vibration. 06:22:18 And without them you can't sense let alone think. 06:22:33 which part of the brain is made of something other then vibrating atoms? 06:22:42 Are you speaking of the mind? 06:22:48 made of the brain. 06:22:50 Does the word choline estheraze tell you anything? 06:22:53 made of the atoms 06:22:59 no. 06:23:06 thats two words 06:23:12 which one. 06:23:15 It means nothing to me. 06:23:20 It is one word here. 06:23:24 lol ;) 06:23:48 Raystm2_: Seriously though. What you are arguing is that because you can use math to describe a specific thing, then math and that thing are the same thing. 06:23:52 English is stupid language, it breaks things into more words than necessary. 06:24:24 not found! 06:24:30 Raystm2_: It is obvious to me taht you can do a lot of things using math that are *very* difficult to do using just vibrations. 06:24:39 are you spelling it correctly? 06:25:23 I saw that Dr. John Conways cellular automation is Turing complete. 06:25:36 I'm sure I can describe the inner workings of an elephant's heart using math. Does that make elephant's heart == math. 06:25:45 Hm. 06:25:45 I don't see anyone solving equations using elephant's hearts. 06:25:48 I believe it's called the 150 or some such. 06:25:51 Maybe it is still one word. 06:25:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylcholine 06:26:04 ty ASau :) 06:26:36 ok time to make some pizza. 06:26:38 bbl 06:26:46 Okay, what part of that chemical is not vibrating atoms? 06:26:51 by schme :) 06:26:54 very interesting channel this! 06:27:04 indeed, it used to be. 06:27:15 Great place to sharpen your lead pencil. 06:27:37 Raystm2_: chemical reaction is everything about non-vibrational moves. 06:28:01 Which atom is not vibrating again? 06:28:02 If it were contrary, there would be no reactions at all, 06:28:36 Again, reactions are all about _non_-vibrational moves. 06:28:46 molecules may exhibit some form of stability, but the atoms that make it up all vibrate otherwise they would be frozen 06:28:55 Where's vibration, when reaction proceeds? 06:29:01 in each atom 06:29:04 always 06:29:06 never stops 06:29:16 What does have to do with chemical reaction? 06:29:21 molecules are what you are toalking about. 06:30:11 what does chemical reactions have to do with the point that all things are made of vibrating things, because if they are made of atoms those atoms are not frozen and vibrate in there locals. 06:30:54 What's the return period along dimension of that very bond, that breaks or establishes during the reaction? 06:31:14 still not part of the point. 06:31:34 youve gone macro on me. 06:31:46 So, your brain is made from non-vibrating things, like molucles. 06:32:08 wihich are made of vibrating things like atoms 06:32:15 Atoms don't vibrate either. 06:32:23 certainly they do. 06:32:23 What does vibrate in the atom? 06:32:46 and when they are tightly packed they vibrate in very tight movement. 06:32:59 Elements of spectroscopy on #forth. 06:33:03 :) 06:33:10 Which atoms in brain are tightly packed? 06:33:19 Elements of cristallochemistry on #forth. 06:33:56 So, what's the spectrum of atom? 06:34:02 If an orange were the size of earth we'd see that all the atoms are the size of cherries vibrating in there locals. 06:34:19 How do they vibrate? 06:34:24 What distance changes? 06:34:31 Between what and what? 06:35:00 I'm not that well versed but I bet I can find it. 06:35:45 Another part: how molecule hamiltonian is decomposed into atomic ones? 06:35:51 is this decomposition strict? 06:36:32 Elements of quantum chemistry on #forth :D 06:37:01 sweet@ 06:38:10 It is plain stupid to talk of atoms as vibrating things. 06:38:20 In fact, nothing vibrates. 06:38:33 These all are approximations. 06:39:27 You can't separate electrons and nuclei movements in strict mathematical sense. 06:39:37 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html <-- that program told me that all atoms are vibrating. That atoms in space are vibrating at 3 degrees above abolute zero and therefore not frozen yet but someday... 06:40:26 This isn't strict explanation. 06:40:54 Nothing "vibrates" in the sense you're accustomed to. 06:41:05 Right, agreed. for the most lowest common denominator audiance for sure. 06:41:06 The temperature is ca. 3 degrees. 06:41:09 That's true. 06:41:16 But that's not about vibration. 06:42:43 It is about equilibrium state of electromagnetic radiation aka photon gas. 06:42:48 http://www.mcasco.com/p1vib.html 06:43:13 This is even closer to my specialty, than quantum chemistry. 06:43:30 Extending our notion of what makes up the motion of a particle or system of particles, we should now consider that kind of motion where the object dithers about in the neighborhood of a point in the space of our reference frame. Such motion is called "vibration" or "vibratory motion" from previous link 06:44:12 If you extend the meaning of "vibration", you can cover any arbitrary movement. 06:44:22 This is mechanical part, close to math. 06:44:37 This doesn't mean that every movement is vibrational in usual sense. 06:45:41 I'm not extending anything, i'm pasteing in to chat what is being taught as Physics 1. They use the term, not I. 06:45:48 well I do to. D'oh 06:46:03 I did't define it obviously. 06:46:54 If I am in error, it is because what is being taught is also in error. 06:49:17 From same page, tends towards my Music point You may have noticed the label on the previous display was "Simple Harmonic Oscillator". This terminology comes from the form of the position vs. time plot. An oscillator in which the restoring force is proportional to the displacement vibrates with a particularly simple function of position vs. time. The function is x = A*cos(w*t + f) . The sine and cosine functions are called har 06:52:20 Sure, but where did you met any harmonic oscillator in reality? 06:52:40 electronics class. Built them too. 06:52:57 All these first semester courses give you introduction. 06:53:01 You mean naturally? How about quartz? 06:53:07 --- join: Elench (n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench) joined #forth 06:53:20 And introduction is the only thing you can make in the 1st course. 06:53:41 Oh, is returning force in quartz harmonic? 06:54:07 My electronics instructor worked for Sprague Capcitor and was on the team that invented the quart-crystal timed wristwatch. :) 06:54:12 If it were, quartz exhibited Debye heat capacity behaviour. 06:54:14 And it doesn't. 06:54:40 The returning force? 06:55:46 I now that when a quartz crystal is made to send a ping that the same quartz crystal harmonizes with the returning wave off of the submarine and I can read that vibration with a meter to determing the sub. 06:55:54 "Restoring" 06:57:30 The link is the introduction course or my electronics class. Sorry I can't tell the difference from the context. :) 06:59:03 I also know that a quartz crystal changes electrical energy into vibratory kinetic energy vice versa. 06:59:27 Because a sonar works. 07:00:47 Sure, and vibratory kinetic spectrum while close to isn't harmonic still. 07:01:40 not harmonic? all any thing needs to me harmonic is sympathetic. or so I believe. 07:01:48 me = be 07:03:03 if my little E-string on my guitar vibrates when I pluck the Big E, then they are sympathic and harmonic and ALSO other stings vibrate because they are sympathetically harmonic. 07:03:16 --- join: GeDaMo (n=gedamo@212.225.115.96) joined #forth 07:03:42 They harmonize by definition. 07:04:13 Oh, guitar string is nice. 07:04:26 Ever looked at acoustic spectrum? 07:04:38 It is enlightening. 07:04:49 20-20khtz or aprox. 07:05:02 When we were writing sound recognition, we used guitar for tests. 07:05:13 Neat :) 07:05:28 My colleague didn't understand why the hell there're so many harmonics 07:05:44 when he pluck open string. 07:05:47 there is one for every prime number. 07:05:53 oh! okay :) 07:06:55 Then I explained that when he plucks the string, _everything_ starts to vibrate. 07:07:09 The guitar corpse included. 07:07:16 sure. indeed. 07:07:43 Some other strings start to sound too. 07:08:06 acknowledged :) 07:08:33 send signal ACK :) 07:08:43 And you say "harmonic oscillator". :) 07:09:04 Yes? What about? 07:09:19 Okay wait. 07:09:22 lol 07:10:51 oscillator and harmonic ( not my words but from that link ) when used as "harmonic oscilltor" does that mean the harmonies are oscillating or does the device create oscillations of different slectable harmonies. 07:14:48 "Oscillator" means that it vibrates. 07:15:09 "Harmonic" means that it's described by harmonic restoring force. 07:15:26 i.e. proportional to deviation from equilibrium state. 07:18:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispersion_forces 07:19:11 I may have to make a new defintion in my mind of what vibration IS like you said. I'm just now reading van der Waals force in that link. 07:20:57 so things have settled down? 07:21:22 No, we're talking about women rights on another channel. :D 07:21:31 I find using math to generate parts of music just splendid. 07:21:39 If you are asking me... I'm so tired that I can nolonger defend my position. :) 07:21:46 ASau: I don't understand "women rights". Does it include baking and cleaning the house? :P 07:22:06 like math for creating the oscillators that feed other shit. 07:22:10 just splendid. 07:22:36 :P 07:22:40 hehe 07:23:01 Does colorforth work well on qemu? 07:23:08 or do I need to actually boot it on my machine here? 07:23:47 I've not used qemu. Years ago someone said colorForth-- the original-- was slow. 07:24:36 slow is ok. 07:24:48 most recently colorForth is a file the size of a floppy diskette because it runs ( with minor changes ) the same in windows as it does natively. 07:25:02 guess I need to go buy me some windows then. 07:25:05 or a floppy drive. 07:25:08 The file is self booting but uses a seperate executable in windows to start it. 07:25:20 Right. 07:25:25 but who on earth has some windows! 07:25:36 I think I'll try the floppy image with qemu 07:25:50 now adays you can boot from USB port with sanDisk memory properly formated. 07:25:56 cool. 07:26:24 "can boot -- USB" on some machines. 07:28:36 CM chose Windows because it came with the PC. He chose the PC because it was the cheapest thing on the market. His only purpose was to code directly to memory using DOS's Debug, which is totally coding hex directly into memory. 07:29:09 I am looking at http://www.colorforth.com/install.htm and none of the download links seem to work. 07:29:45 Ya you don't want colorForth 1 unless you want colorForth 1. I've got copies at... 07:29:51 Yes. x86 sure is the most bang for the buck. 07:29:52 ok. 07:29:55 so where do I look? 07:30:24 http://colorforthray.info/Colorforth2.0a.zip <--- testing that links in.... 07:30:39 nopt 07:30:42 nope 07:30:51 okay ... 07:31:33 ok I guess no colorforth :P 07:31:36 OH capital F 07:31:59 http://colorforthray.info/ColorForth2.0a.zip 07:32:43 How do I boot this? 07:32:48 also now small c capital F like most people spell it. 07:33:08 No floppy? right? 07:33:18 right. I find in this zip file a .exe a .ico some .cf some .doc 07:33:39 no floppy. But i'd like a disk image that boots on the metal 07:33:42 w/o requiring windows 07:34:44 right OkadWork.cf is the template file that is the executable. You can raw write it with dd to a USB stick but it has to be in the boot position of the stick. I've not done that yet so I'm not sure how that goes. 07:35:08 Other have. 07:35:18 They are in the Color-Forth google group. 07:35:26 or on C.L.Forth 07:35:42 hmmm 07:36:17 oh I see. right. 07:36:31 Chuck Moore also has experience using USB boot. 07:37:05 By now he may have composed a pat standard answer but it's not linked into his website. 07:38:21 pat standard? 07:39:26 You are too young to have had opportunity to be exposed to expressions as pat standard answer. :) 07:39:47 I have no idea what "pat standard" even means. 07:39:49 I shall try to modernize. :) 07:40:04 perhaps it is more related to english being *far* from my main language. 07:40:12 I see. :) 07:41:18 A pat answer is an answer that you have given so many times that you actually repeat a script in your head with out thinking. A standard one is the answer that many use. :) 07:41:44 hmm ok. 07:41:49 I need to move to the other box. 07:41:50 bugger 07:43:11 Yikes my battery back up just sent me into hybernation. 07:43:38 but i seem to have recovered from powerdown with out loss of connection. 07:44:00 I was shut off for a few seconds there. :) 07:46:05 cf seems not work so fine on qemu for me. 07:46:40 Thank you for trying and reporting that. Do you have anything specific you want me to parrot to anyone trying qemu? 07:46:44 cf is really picky on hardware support 07:46:52 Indeed. Hi crc :) 07:47:05 I was able to get a copy of cf1.x running under vmware a few years back, but no longer have it :( 07:47:17 Raystm2_: I'm not sure. I fired it up using qemu -fda OkadWork.cf foo.img and I got.. odd stripes. 07:47:37 maybe if I try to emulate x86-32 it will work better. 07:47:40 * schme tries 07:48:12 Odd stripes means it boots but you have not got the right setting for display 07:48:49 what settings? 07:48:56 I haven't seen no settings (: 07:49:10 this can be fixed either by me changing the setting on my copy saving it and sending it to you, or we can ( if you can follow instructions to the t ) do it remotely from your not working so well copy. 07:49:50 What settings should I look at? 07:49:53 really a vesa setting needs to be changed. There is one for nVidia and one for ... 07:49:57 and are we talking qemu settings or what? 07:50:02 but I'm emulating vesa. 07:50:13 schme these are internal words in the system that needs to be changed. 07:50:20 hmm ok 07:50:22 where do I look? 07:50:58 I'm pretty certain qemu is not emulating no nvidia :) 07:51:28 One setting is for ati .. sorry I was looking them up. 07:52:35 we can use a hex editor and try to search for the $10cd4118h which is the vesa for nvidia and change that to $10cd4123 for ati. 07:52:43 it is emulating this 07:52:46 Cirrus CLGD 5446 PCI VGA card or dummy VGA card with Bochs VESA extensions (hardware level, including all non standard modes). 07:53:01 I'm not on nvidia or ati though. 07:53:42 There are three settings that seem to work besides those two there is $10cd4117. 07:53:56 those are all 1024x768 settings. 07:54:12 there are colorForths for 800x600 as well. 07:54:26 Where do I find all these? 07:55:40 $10cd is the interrupt, and 4 is the linear framebuffer on and ati 123, nvidia118 or the old standart 117. Where do you find them in the image? 07:56:07 Let me get a hex editor and i'll give you the relitive address. 07:56:19 dling hex editor. 07:57:58 uh 07:58:04 no where do I find all these colorforths. 07:58:16 i tried sourceforge, there was some iso. 07:58:19 didn't work out so well. 07:59:14 Okay finding links for you. I"ve been off line quite a while due to many reasons one of which was I lost an hdd and had to replace it . I'm just now getting all my software back. 07:59:22 ehehe 08:01:02 have you tryed xcolorforth? http://colorforthray.info/XcolorForth.tar.gz 08:01:06 nope. 08:02:07 ah bugger. just lajnuk 08:02:10 lajnux 08:06:14 ASau: was it you that suggested somewhere I could post my ARM + gforth problem? 08:06:33 also now new today from my site .. http://colorforthray.info/GLcolorForth.tar.gz 08:07:11 XcolorForth ? GLcolorForth? 08:08:29 schme: yes 08:09:03 ASau: Where was that? 08:09:16 oh yees I remember. you even suggested some newsserver 08:13:00 ./main.c:846: error: 'N_noop' undeclared (first use in this function) <= that's it. 08:13:14 an 800 x 600 at http://colorforthray.info/downloads/original/c4-800x600-p2bd-01.zip 08:14:08 --- join: neceve (n=ncv@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 08:16:00 multi-tasking colorforth is nasm compiled as opposed to MASM http://colorforthray.info/downloads/mtcf.tgz 08:16:59 comes with the build files -- no make file present. 08:17:51 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 08:18:54 crc terry loveall's site disappeared again. :( 08:18:59 :( 08:19:11 to build the mtcf: nasm cmcolor.asm 08:19:24 right. ty crc :) 08:19:39 the main file includes the other two at the proper places 08:20:04 crc those are all on your server now. if they were they are now archived as well. 08:20:31 ok 08:22:16 the multi-tasking colorforth is a sub project of smallFonts colorForth and therefore has small fonts in the block and you can see more code per block with it, consequently. 08:29:24 When I crashed my computer I had a thumb drive hooked in and I had a tiny moment of clarity and syncronized my links.. I should have much of what's missing from Terry's site on the drive as well. Checking now. taking forever to load. 08:30:30 lol i've been afraiid to do the reverse operation, I mean to move the stuff from the thumbdrive to the new HDD. 08:32:21 --- join: lukego (n=lukegorr@84-72-45-92.dclient.hispeed.ch) joined #forth 08:36:41 I've got a copy of Enth/Flux that works under Qemu 08:40:29 Enth/Flux recomended as a first colorForth very highly by Ray. :) 08:40:38 even in the third person. 08:40:43 --- nick: Raystm2_ -> Raystm2 08:44:46 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@LRouen-152-83-15-79.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth 08:47:39 * crc is looking through old files to see what loveall files remain... 08:49:39 found it :) 800x600 colorforth boot floppy for qemu :) 08:49:41 I may have some old mirror of loveall site. 08:51:07 http://retroforth.org/qemu-c4th.gz 08:51:10 floppy image 08:51:13 for qemu 08:51:27 (boots to dos; run "c4" at the prompt to start colorforth) 08:54:50 crc: I'll try it out :) 08:58:58 Does it work with keyboard? 09:01:44 yikes /me is tired. yawn; up all night 09:03:32 nappy bye time :) 09:03:45 I let the machine time out. 09:13:14 ASau: yes 09:13:29 I did a few quick tests and it seems to work properly 09:13:52 Ah, yeah, figured that it works, but I need manual page with key bindings. 09:14:12 ray would be more helpful there 09:14:25 * crc only dabbles occasionally with colorforth 09:40:20 --- quit: Judofyr (Remote closed the connection) 10:13:19 --- join: gogonkt_ (n=info@218.13.57.95) joined #forth 10:25:34 --- quit: gogonkt (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:35:44 Keybindings start in the color.asm file after the ACT lable if I recall. 10:36:12 Tell me if you need a copy. 10:37:57 They will be the same for all colorForths with the exception that colorForth2.0a and colorForthForWindows <-- entirely different from 2.0a, --> will have also a qwerty layout included with the CM ChuckVorack. 10:38:59 may computer neve timed out, and I have the hiccups. 10:39:06 may = my 10:39:18 seems a pain to work with qwerty (: 10:39:19 neve+r 10:39:43 does it? I don't know, I only use it for everything other than colorForth. :) 10:40:04 I suppose it is the same as dvorak, just different 10:40:32 ya, by a couple of keys not in same place and the rest not used at all. 10:42:25 the six keys ( 2 above 2 below and 2 on the home row ) between the fingers when they are "home" are not mapped in and in actual Dvorak one or two of those keys would have been used instead. 10:43:49 Okay, guess wifey took daughter to work and I woke to the sound of the apt door shutting. 10:45:36 still have hiccups, some one scare me, some one tell me they are going to take my internet away if I don't stop. 10:48:27 The prodigal wife return-eth. 10:54:59 Oh Oh also, some new funtionality has been mapped into the left keyboard for the editor when the editor is loaded in colorForth2.0a. 10:57:01 these are in the bytcode on blocks 90 and 92 for the "search keys" , the colorChanger key on block 94. The blue-words key for block 98 is NOT currently mapped in. 10:58:36 Unless you some how got a more recent copy from Intellasys or CM since the release of 2.0a the blue key IS mapped in on those versions. I don't know that those versions are public yet. I'm betting not yet. 11:02:20 For block 98 I believe that one only need to follow the model on blocks 90-96 to hack the new icon into the display map, set the 98 block to load on boot and have it execute 'seeb' for see blue-words as the block is loading. 11:03:02 --- join: Judofyr (n=Judofyr@cC694BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) joined #forth 11:03:14 I've not used blue words yet and I understand that they are somehow immediate while in EDIT time. 11:03:50 wow 11:05:11 --- quit: kleinjt (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:06:36 --- join: Raystm2_ (i=rastm2@c-24-8-232-212.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 11:06:47 --- quit: f[x] (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:07:30 Stupid cable company. We are currently on the phone to them. they just dropped my connect again while testing the onDemand problems we've been having. 11:08:41 --- join: f[x] (n=user@95.133.171.16) joined #forth 11:09:21 --- nick: Raystm2_ -> Raystm2__ 11:11:08 --- nick: Raystm2 -> Guest64002 11:13:23 --- nick: Raystm2__ -> Raystm2 11:13:58 --- nick: Raystm2 -> Raystm2__ 11:14:27 --- nick: Raystm2__ -> Register 11:14:57 --- nick: Register -> Guest61738 11:15:06 --- nick: Guest61738 -> Raystm2__ 11:17:30 --- quit: DrunkTomato () 11:22:05 --- nick: Raystm2__ -> Raystm2 11:22:42 okay all nicks fixed and registered and I finally learned about the Group command that I could have done all that with all the nick changes. AH too late :) 11:23:31 --- join: kleinjt (n=kleinjt@tarsonis.dhcp.rose-hulman.edu) joined #forth 11:24:49 --- quit: Guest64002 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:25:37 and THAT one can now never be me if I've got enough nicks to keep from being guest when I come back up from sigLossage. 11:28:47 Wait I guess you DO have to change nicks after all. Glad you know this now ? 11:28:54 --- nick: Raystm2 -> Raystm2_ 11:29:00 --- nick: Raystm2_ -> Group 11:29:51 --- nick: Group -> Raystm2_ 11:31:26 msg NickServ VERIFY REGISTER Raystm2_ qjzyogficxnt 11:31:29 lol 11:32:19 --- nick: Raystm2_ -> Raystm2 11:32:59 NOW fixed. sorry for nick changes. 11:33:01 Everyone writes down p4$$w0rd. :D 11:33:05 lol :) 11:33:20 that's THERE verify password and not mine, but you knew this. 11:33:25 their even 11:34:07 You had about a second to be me while i verified. 11:35:02 funny the one-underline nick doesn't come up with the INFO command for the no/2underline nick. odd. 11:37:41 I suppose if you have more then 2 nicks you have to reg them sepperately and if you do to many nicks in a row you have to have e-mail verify. 11:38:19 Those are all new to me with freenode. I suppose things have changed a bit sinse LiLo died. 11:45:07 Raystm2: I have two nicks. I don't remember having any email verify. 11:45:15 they're the same password and all 11:45:20 --- quit: tarbo (Remote closed the connection) 11:46:18 oh ya one uses GROUP 11:50:05 right. I added a third and freenode pitched a verify bitch. 11:50:27 two are just not enough with the way comcast keeps droping sig. 11:53:12 hehehe 11:54:03 comcast has always had iffy connectivity 11:54:07 they have always totally sucked 11:56:20 I feel the suckage. Whats that *nix simple text editor 4 letters starts with N? I'm having a senior moment here. :) 11:57:11 Nano? 11:58:22 GeDaMo NANO! win a prize ty 11:58:30 :P 11:58:50 I couldnt get past niXX for large values of XX . 11:59:14 and 'i' was literally and subjectively incorrect. :) 11:59:18 There's only one unix text editor, 2 letters starts with "e". 11:59:23 :p 11:59:33 vi ? lol :) 11:59:46 "vi" doesn't start with "e". :p 11:59:55 I know I know. the funny part is that it doesnt start with e. 12:00:04 And "vi" isn't unix text editor, it is BSD text editor. 12:00:12 :p 12:00:17 I see. did not know that. thank you for clarity. 12:00:51 BSD started as three programs, written by Bill Joy: 12:01:06 csh, vi, and pc. 12:01:10 That I didn't know either. 12:01:20 really? okay thats cool. 12:01:25 he developed termcap for vi 12:01:31 You don't like any of them do you? hehe :) 12:01:48 I'm not sure about the last. 12:01:52 c=corn? 12:01:58 pc? 12:01:59 "C". 12:02:01 according to the book termcap and terminfo he did 12:02:16 oh okay just plain C shell. 12:02:24 Probably, it was csh, vi and termcap. 12:02:30 * Raystm2 looks up pc 12:02:36 OH okay. 12:02:51 All three suck the most. 12:03:03 ed then, as answer to earlier question. 12:03:48 I like ed. 12:05:10 I enjoy how "All three suck the most." parses in my head. In my head one must suck more then the other two but I totally understand what you mean and it's haha funny to me. :) 12:06:14 --- quit: ASau (Remote closed the connection) 12:06:44 There My remote close ASau is working. lol :) 12:06:44 --- join: ASau (n=user@83.69.240.52) joined #forth 12:06:50 wb :) 12:08:06 * Raystm2 puts on airs like Ada Lovelace as he is first coder other then author of ColorRetro. 12:08:26 i hate css 12:08:34 Use DeCSS :) 12:08:52 im talking style sheets lol 12:09:03 Background: black Comments words: black. I wonder if someone is trying to tell me something. 12:09:41 Mark why are you talking s-sheets? 12:10:01 because im trying to fix something on my site. its not cooperating 12:10:15 Style-shits. 12:10:40 flush them. Flush them all! :) 12:11:00 crap-style-shits. 12:11:25 as opposed to the human-style-shits. 12:12:08 Cascading style-shits <-- shit rolls down hill afterall. 12:12:48 wow hiccups are back. this is rare for my but twice in an hour? please! 12:13:06 "rare for ME but" not my butt. 12:14:05 I'm going for coffee, anyone? 12:15:18 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-088-068-193-055.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 12:16:16 Does anyone else purchase food and then read the containor to find out you really bought nothing? 12:16:34 ? 12:16:39 My daughter bought a box of crackers called Nut-thins, they have nothing in them. 12:16:49 no nutrition, no vitamins no nothing. 12:17:02 Nope, that never happens me. 12:17:07 lol :) 12:17:15 Food seldom comes in "containers" here. 12:17:23 I guess milk does. 12:17:24 Oh! cool. 12:17:33 and meat is packaged too. 12:17:35 but yeah. 12:17:45 if we want crackers we grind some flour and make 'em. 12:17:54 seems too complicated to go buy some 12:17:59 * schme likes it easy 12:18:11 Hey, let me give you a hand full of flour while you shop for a handfull of butter. Lol < "no containers" get it ) :) 12:18:24 ehehehe 12:18:29 --- join: ForthIRC (n=mhx@65.244.211.131) joined #forth 12:18:32 haven't eaten butter in years tbh 12:18:37 it's disgusting 12:18:51 --- quit: ForthIRC (Client Quit) 12:18:57 No one has. Its for the Elite wealthy now. even the rich cant afford it :) 12:18:57 I never understood what people use it for. I see some people put it on bread. 12:19:06 huh 12:19:08 seems dirt cheap. 12:19:16 real butter is rare. 12:19:24 spread is cheap. 12:19:29 spread is not butter. 12:19:32 real butter is in pretty much every store. 12:19:38 indeed it is. 12:19:48 don't seem to rare too me. 12:19:50 too expensive to use like it once was. 12:19:57 rare to purchase. 12:20:03 huh. 12:20:10 That I have not noticed. 12:20:16 doesn't meet standard requirments of a good purchase. 12:20:49 I don't see why anyone would be buying butter in the first place. 12:21:07 What I find amusing is people buying water in bottles. 12:21:44 It's got the kinds of fats that most people associate with things like icecream and they are large molecules and roll well on the tongue. 12:21:48 schme: totally agree with you :-) 12:21:57 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:22:04 water in bottles ya. hehe 12:22:11 a buck a peice 12:22:17 just get a good RO filter 12:22:23 right. 12:22:27 any css guru's in here? 12:22:34 not i. 12:22:40 filter? wtf 12:22:44 just take water from the tap. 12:22:51 reverse osmosis filter 12:22:56 no need for that crap. 12:22:59 tap water is not fit for consumption. 12:23:05 I440r: not a guru, but I've played with it quite a bit 12:23:06 sure it is, we have excellent water. 12:23:20 i bet you have over 500 PPM pf impurities 12:23:29 we do too. Rocky Mountains glacier water. 12:23:36 I'm not surprised yankee tap water is dodgy though. 12:23:40 Coors is just down the street. 12:23:49 Not here. pretty good here. 12:24:00 here in Norway everyone take water from the tap :-) 12:24:04 http://www.isforth.com/kern.php?t=isforth <-- tell me how to get the prev and next links in the bottom right to sit ON the damned footer bar 12:24:07 i cant figure it out 12:24:09 tap here as well. 12:24:41 people walk and bike here too. That was the first odd thing that my children noticed when we moved here from Ft Worth-less 12:24:53 actually tho i dont normally drink water unless its been filtered through some well ground coffee beans :) 12:25:11 Judofyr: you norweigans drink tap water because you are copying us swedes :P 12:25:35 haha 12:25:44 lol sweeden still pissed they lost norway?? :) 12:25:46 I married a Swede. 12:26:15 I440r: dunno. Us southern swedes are really more upset that denmark lost us to sweden. 12:26:16 I think we own about 1% of all shares in the whole world 12:26:19 It's true what they say about the Swedish. Good snugglers. 12:26:25 lol 12:26:29 hehe 12:26:47 Judofyr i'm not surprised. :) 12:28:06 I440r: try to put the wtf-div above the hits-div 12:28:13 unfortunately, like the rest of the economic world, those shares are worthless. :) 12:28:14 Judofyr: you a judoka? 12:28:20 that would be wrong 12:28:26 schme: yup 12:28:31 Judofyr: cool beans! 12:28:37 i want the hit count on the far left. the copyright centered and the links on far right 12:28:40 schme: how'd you know? :O 12:28:52 im not happy about moving the links into the status bar 12:29:00 I440r: as long as it's floated right I think it would work… 12:29:08 I see the counter on the left and just next on the right. CR n the middle. 12:29:27 i wanted them at the bottom of the content area but that doesnt work right either 12:29:44 Judofyr: I dunno. it could be "judofyr" suggesting it :P 12:29:53 they move well with the change of size in Opera. 12:30:41 they move right. they jsut are not positioned right 12:30:41 * Raystm2 clicks next expecting to also see a prev on the next page... 12:30:59 and that works as well. 12:31:01 im unhappy about putting them in this area anyway. i wanted to have a type deal 12:31:09 but therse not enogh room here 12:31:11 I see. 12:31:14 I440r: if you wanted it at the bottom of the content area, it might work to .content_area { position: relative } and #wtf { position: absolute; bottom: 0; right: 0; } 12:31:18 might 12:31:21 I'm not sure 12:31:40 no way to extend any one of top or bottom of that area of the page. that's weird isn't it. 12:31:46 Judofyr, i had them there previously and when i shrink the viewport to smaller than the content i get a NEW scroll bar in the content area 12:32:06 and the prev and next would overlap the content text 12:32:14 ah. 12:32:28 i.e. they would always be exactly N pixles above the top of the footer instead of "at the bottom of the content area" 12:32:49 sure. 12:33:18 possibly not good for a small browser. I'm thinking some sort of phone that I don't really know about. 12:34:02 I440r: why display: table-cell? 12:34:43 because they are in a CSS table 12:35:01 im moving them back into the content area tho i dont like them there 12:36:04 I440r: I assume you're not a designer … ? 12:36:07 using position absolute is fail 12:36:13 very much NOT :P 12:37:28 :D 12:48:58 ok. i SORT of have it right but thers still something wrong 12:49:23 the links are at the bottom of the content area but are below the view within this area. this area now has its own scrollbar 12:49:31 you have to scroll it to get to the prev/next links 12:49:47 i want that only if the viewport has been made too small for the content within it 12:50:51 --- quit: Snoopy_1711 () 13:07:33 --- quit: f[x] (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:10:56 I440r: the drop shadow behind the body text is annoying 13:13:54 i know 13:14:03 others have said so. i was planning on removing it 13:14:12 but to my eye it actually makes the text MORe readable 13:14:48 * crc disagrees *strongly* 13:15:21 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-101-168.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 13:18:40 ya. others have too. ill change it :P 13:18:43 its on the todo 13:19:22 ok 13:20:20 it already was on the todo :) 13:22:42 --- join: Maki (n=Maki@dynamic-78-30-139-176.adsl.eunet.rs) joined #forth 13:26:43 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote closed the connection) 13:30:48 wb crc :) 13:42:00 removed the shadow but it looks blury to my eyes now 13:43:06 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 14:06:12 it looks better to me 14:06:34 * crc suggests that you could have two stylesheets, and allow switching between them 14:13:05 --- quit: Maki ("Leaving") 14:16:30 nah ill just go with this :) 14:16:57 i wanted to fix the css but my main concern is fixing the content 14:17:39 i think im going to make it one word description per page and add examples of how the words are used 14:18:11 maybe 14:23:13 Mark that's prob'ly a hassle now that is easily maintainable Later and you might be glad you did. 14:24:09 ray: as long as the content is kept separate from the presentation/structural stuff, it's easy enough to fix later 14:24:40 the entire site is done dynamically 14:24:51 well mostly 14:25:12 thers some things i need to make more dynamic ive just not done so 14:25:44 the actual content text is not stored in a database but the site is templated php 14:26:33 is the body text too dim now? i didnt like the bright white text color 14:26:39 but it might be too subdued now 14:26:47 it is a bit dim 14:27:29 --- join: tarbo (n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo) joined #forth 14:28:20 brightened it up slightly 14:28:52 hmm might darken background more too. 14:36:27 crc of course you are correct DOH! me. 14:59:12 --- quit: GeDaMo ("Leaving.") 15:45:48 --- join: segher (n=rehges@84-105-60-153.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 15:59:04 --- join: Raystm2_ (i=rastm2@c-24-8-232-212.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:15:35 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 16:25:37 ok i think i fixed all the broken parts as much as i can. still not perfect tho :/ 16:25:54 but now i finish the content. got too much to do :/ 16:27:11 think i sould maintain support for 2.2 kernels? 16:27:40 i.e. 2.2 kernels dont support anonymous shared memory blocks 16:44:30 huh? 16:46:18 isforth 16:46:42 should i maintain support for 2.2 linux kernels 16:46:57 i wouldn't, heh. not even 2.4 16:46:58 like. does anyone even run linux 2.2 any more ? wtf for? 16:47:17 the "huh" was wrt "2.2 doesn't support anon mem" 16:47:38 it doesnt support anonymous SHARED 16:47:47 it has to be private if its anon 16:48:34 it does support it. not via mmap() perhaps? 16:48:51 erm gotta go eat. brb :0 16:48:59 and no it doesnt support anon/shared 16:48:59 but there is also /dev/shm and stuff 16:50:28 anyway, just drop 2.2 support, no one will miss it. people still do run 2.2 fwiw (i even run 1.3 on one box still) 16:50:55 no one will expect all (or even most!) new software to run on it 17:01:00 --- join: Raystm2 (i=rastm2@c-24-8-232-212.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:06:32 --- quit: Quiznos (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:15:11 --- quit: Raystm2_ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 18:18:04 --- join: crc_ (n=charlesc@c-68-80-139-0.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:34:40 --- quit: crc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:48:28 --- quit: Raystm2 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 19:02:44 --- quit: crc_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:10:54 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:11:26 --- join: I440r (n=me@c-69-136-171-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:14:35 --- join: Quiznos (i=1000@c-68-56-143-229.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:15:35 --- join: Raystm2 (i=rastm2@c-24-8-232-212.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:51:46 --- join: crc (n=charlesc@68.80.139.0) joined #forth 19:59:33 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-096-113.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 20:08:10 --- nick: gogonkt_ -> gogonkt 20:16:14 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 20:45:03 --- quit: aguai_ (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:45:29 --- join: aguai_ (i=aguai@114-36-118-226.dynamic.hinet.net) joined #forth 21:14:04 --- quit: Raystm2 ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 21:27:21 --- join: DrunkTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 21:39:53 --- nick: Quiznos -> PurpleSmurf 22:05:02 --- join: appell (n=username@114-30-102-224.ip.adam.com.au) joined #forth 22:06:08 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@LRouen-152-83-15-79.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth 22:29:02 --- quit: ASau ("bye all") 22:29:08 --- quit: appell ("Leaving") 22:45:54 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote closed the connection) 23:04:20 --- quit: DrunkTomato () 23:35:51 --- join: appell (n=username@114.30.108.192) joined #forth 23:36:35 --- quit: appell (Client Quit) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/09.09.20