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04:13:06 <jauaor> :)
04:15:08 <gogonkt> good evening
04:15:29 <Quiznos> hi
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04:16:39 <gogonkt> 37 nicks
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12:59:07 <kardinal> join #virtualbox
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13:00:04 <schme> I don't want to.
13:02:51 <I440r> whats wrong with #virtualbox :P
13:03:14 <I440r> its actually #vbox tho
13:13:48 <Raystm2> Hey Mark. Long time... Hope you are well. :)
13:14:31 <ASau> Time goes, #forth stays...
13:15:22 <ASau> Almost same names like 8 years ago.
13:17:13 <Raystm2> Nice to see you as well, ASau :)
13:17:44 <Qcoder00> Evening all
13:17:46 <Qcoder00> :)
13:17:55 <Qcoder00> FORTH is starting to grow on me :)
13:17:56 <Raystm2> This is why big manufaturing aims there products at the young. Once your set in your ways...
13:18:08 <Raystm2> Hi  Qcoder00
13:18:20 <Qcoder00> Me is having a LOL moment
13:18:40 <Raystm2> share?
13:18:50 <Qcoder00> It's easier to do things in FORTH than I thought..
13:19:03 <Qcoder00> That said it's harder to do them WELL as noob
13:20:22 <Raystm2> It's really fun to find stuff you once coded, and now can't believe you ever used any of those techniques. :)
13:20:48 <Raystm2> And then you realize you are only a few days away from that happening again and again. :)
13:21:37 <Qcoder00> Raystm2: Of course I at least understand FORTH is lower level than some lanaguges
13:21:39 <Qcoder00> :)
13:21:58 <Qcoder00> One technique i was considering usin goes way way back
13:22:13 <Qcoder00> *using
13:22:24 <Qcoder00> Shame JonesForth doesn't have a floating point stack
13:22:26 <Qcoder00> :(
13:22:38 <gogonkt> :)
13:22:58 <gogonkt> ASau: nice to meet you
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13:24:14 <Raystm2_> stupid bit supplier. knocked me off again. 
13:24:33 --- nick: Raystm2_ -> release
13:24:57 --- nick: Raystm2 -> Guest67808
13:25:15 <gogonkt> ...
13:26:04 --- nick: release -> Raystm2
13:26:26 <Raystm2> I used to know how to do this.
13:33:48 <Qcoder00> A pure S/W Floating point is possible
13:33:55 <Qcoder00> But I am not sure how to do it ;)
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14:02:02 <I440r> ray! hi - job searching atm :)
14:28:18 <ASau> Qcoder00: there're two implementations in Taygeta archive.
14:43:04 <Qcoder00> Link
14:43:05 <Qcoder00> :)
14:43:09 <Qcoder00> ?
14:43:30 * ASau sighs.
14:45:03 <Qcoder00> ASau: Sometimes finding things in large archives is made easier by specifc links
14:45:13 <ASau> files float.arc and float4th.arc
14:45:31 <ASau> ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth or so.
14:45:41 <ASau> there's ls-lR file.
14:45:49 <ASau> just to ease navigation.
14:46:14 <Qcoder00> OK
14:46:16 <Qcoder00> :)
14:46:21 <Qcoder00> Will take a look :)
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15:04:02 <I440r> i hate monster.com
15:30:02 <Quiznos> fix your dcc
15:30:03 <Quiznos> :>
15:31:06 <I440r> hi
15:31:09 <I440r> did you try it?
15:31:12 <Quiznos> yes
15:31:19 <I440r> i cant. its not my router, its my sisters and i dont have access
15:31:22 <I440r> this is HER house
15:31:28 <Quiznos> move out :)
15:31:35 <I440r> soon as i get a job
15:31:36 <Quiznos> or take over :)
15:31:40 <I440r> lol
15:31:48 <I440r> my dad has already taken over (or thinks he has) :P
15:31:53 <Quiznos> of course
15:32:00 <Quiznos> okl let's spend a few mins on the asm thing
15:32:14 <Quiznos> can we?
15:33:15 <Quiznos> for a quick review of basic intel programmer's view.
15:33:38 <Quiznos> and how i change it for my syntax
15:34:23 <I440r> heh
15:34:35 <Quiznos> is that an affirmative answer?
15:34:39 <I440r> ok. how do you change it for your syntax?
15:34:46 <Quiznos> no; intel first
15:34:51 <I440r> ok
15:34:54 <Quiznos> ax cx dx bx sp bp si di
15:35:06 <Quiznos> those are 16bitters
15:35:16 <Quiznos> al cl dl bl ah ch dh bh -- 8bitters
15:35:29 <Quiznos> both sets are valued 0..7 in the order above
15:35:35 <I440r> sp doesnt need to be supported it makes no sense in isforth
15:35:46 <Quiznos> regularity is good.
15:35:54 <I440r> but the others can all bue used as general purpose registers so 16 bits would need to be supportable
15:35:55 <Quiznos> this is the intel programmer's view
15:35:58 <Quiznos> not the forth asm
15:35:58 <I440r> k
15:36:13 <Quiznos> then the segment regs (even tho not used on Linux
15:36:19 <I440r> kk
15:36:23 <Quiznos> cs ds es ds fs gs (not in order
15:36:46 <Quiznos> now in my syntax; it's pretty forthy
15:37:03 <Quiznos> >r and r> are "push" and "pop" respectively
15:37:17 <Quiznos> taking the concept to the regs, i got
15:37:49 <Quiznos> push, a> c> d> b> s> ( sp) t> (bp) e> ( si) f> ( di)
15:38:06 <I440r> ive seen those before. i prefer the names >r and r> though because THOSE are more forth like :P
15:38:09 <Quiznos> pop, a< (a from...) c< d< b< s< t< e< f<
15:38:10 <I440r> but continue
15:38:24 <Quiznos> right; the words are pronounced the same way
15:38:30 <Quiznos> object.direction
15:38:53 <I440r> im dont think i like this idea. i specifically want an assembler that looks like an ASSEMBLER
15:39:00 <Quiznos> ok.
15:39:06 <Quiznos> then visit taygeta
15:39:49 <I440r> there isnt anything there
15:40:07 <Quiznos> according to loeliger, ther is no such thing as a forth assembler.  it's according to your heart's desire.
15:40:14 <I440r> i would want "push ax" and "push eax"
15:40:28 <Quiznos> if you dont want to drag forthers forward into something new then leave em in the dust.
15:40:41 <Quiznos> that's L&P|Intel syntax
15:40:45 <I440r> ok
15:40:45 <Quiznos> it's too damn complicated
15:40:53 <I440r> no. its assembler.
15:40:59 <Quiznos> no such thing.
15:41:10 <I440r> i have already been given permission to use the bigforth assembler in any way i want to
15:41:21 <Quiznos> forth words dont assemble, like os.apps do.
15:41:24 <I440r> but thats not an assembler i could ever use
15:41:24 <Quiznos> ok
15:41:37 <I440r> it uses ax bx cx dx for 16 AND 32 bit registers
15:41:38 <Quiznos> did you ever read loeliger's book?
15:41:42 <I440r> nope
15:41:44 <Quiznos> k
15:41:57 <Quiznos> it's a quick read
15:42:10 <Quiznos> it's not complicated (for a forther)
15:42:39 <I440r> Quiznos, i DID tell you right off that the ONLY assembler i would ever use in isforth is one taht can take my EXISTING assembler soruces AS IS with only spaces injected into it for the forth parser
15:42:39 <Quiznos> look; if you're having difficulty as you've mentioned to me, then there must be a prob
15:42:50 <Quiznos> ok
15:42:53 <I440r> i would never accept an assembler that requires i totally rewrite my entire kernel to fit IT
15:42:59 <Quiznos> ok
15:43:07 <I440r> if that means i dont have an assembler then that means i dont have an assembler
15:43:15 <Quiznos> that's giving up.
15:43:22 <I440r> you could write the single greatest assembler ever devised for the intel procesors
15:43:31 <I440r> if it was not intel syntax i would not use it
15:43:38 <I440r> i have a reason for that
15:43:39 <Quiznos> i want to write forth words that handle the text.
15:44:00 <I440r> have you ever seen the assembler that was used in FPC?
15:44:20 <Quiznos> i used fpc back in the day, so, yea but havent seen it in years
15:44:26 <I440r> it cant be ported to isforth very easilly if at all but THATS the sort of look/feel im after
15:44:29 <Quiznos> it's in my archive/ somewhere
15:44:36 <Quiznos> k
15:44:38 <I440r> move eax, ' myconstant >body
15:44:44 <Quiznos> yea
15:44:55 <I440r> instead of mov eax, [myconstant+N]  
15:44:59 <I440r> which is what i have in my sources
15:45:17 <Quiznos> k
15:45:18 <I440r> though. i think it should be
15:45:29 <I440r>   mov eax, [ ' myconstant >body ]
15:45:36 <I440r> where the assembler defines [ and ] in some way
15:45:37 <Quiznos> right
15:45:49 <I440r> because its moving the contents of an address not the address itself
15:45:56 <Quiznos> yea
15:46:06 <Quiznos> @addy
15:46:07 <I440r> that allows for mov eax, ' myconstnat >body too
15:46:11 <Quiznos> old ptr-ism
15:46:15 <I440r> which points eax at the body of the constant
15:46:34 <Quiznos> k
15:46:40 <I440r> also things like : next lodsd jmp eax ;
15:46:43 <I440r> need to be supported
15:47:06 <Quiznos> but next isnt a high-level word
15:47:07 <I440r> when "next" is executed (its a colon definition) it assembles a lodsd followed by a jmp eax
15:47:11 <I440r> yes
15:47:17 <I440r> its an assembler macro. defined in FORTH
15:47:19 <Quiznos> ok so that is a macro
15:47:37 <Quiznos> then call it macro next lodsd eax jmp ;
15:47:51 <I440r> branches should also be ASSEMBLER like. not forth like with if. else then. they should be beq bne bxx byy etc etc
15:47:54 <Quiznos> so macro invokes assembler lexicon
15:47:58 <I440r> no
15:48:10 <I440r> actually the macro would be
15:48:28 <I440r> : next [assembler] lodsd jmp eax ;
15:48:52 <I440r> or some such. 
15:49:10 <I440r> fpc's assembler defined a: and a; which added and removed the assembler from context
15:49:20 <I440r> : next a; ..... a; ;
15:49:20 <Quiznos> ok
15:49:23 <I440r> or something like that
15:49:26 <Quiznos> yea
15:49:48 <I440r> but the fpc assembler makes use of something thats does not exist in isforth
15:50:12 <I440r> it relies on CODE and COLON being assembled and compiled into different sections
15:50:23 <I440r> this is how its global label mechanism works
15:50:23 <Quiznos> yea split segments
15:50:25 <I440r> code blah
15:50:27 <I440r>   ...
15:50:28 <I440r>   ...
15:50:30 <I440r> label foo
15:50:31 <I440r>   ...
15:50:32 <I440r>  ...
15:50:34 <I440r> ;code
15:51:00 <I440r> the LABEL word simply creates a constant but because the constant is compiled into a different section than the code being layed down by the assembler
15:51:07 <I440r> it worked
15:51:10 <I440r> isforth cannot do that
15:51:14 <Quiznos> k
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15:52:47 <I440r> i have no problem with "not supporting global labeles inside definitions"
15:53:02 <I440r> i have no problem not supporting branching to local lables outside the current definition
15:53:05 <Quiznos> but that concept isnt forthy
15:53:17 <I440r> what do you mean
15:53:25 <Quiznos> global labs outside a word
15:53:34 <I440r> right. fpc allowed it
15:53:35 <I440r> oh
15:53:37 <Quiznos> all labels sans next are local
15:53:38 <I440r> its ok to do
15:53:43 <I440r> lable xyzzy
15:53:47 <I440r>  lots of assembler code here
15:53:53 <I440r>   end-code
15:54:08 <I440r> and then having your assembler reference that global label
15:54:12 <I440r> thats fine
15:54:14 <Quiznos> but there are no global labels unless you mean the label that is the word's name
15:54:31 <I440r> what i think is not fine is branching to local or global lables in the middle of other definitions
15:54:39 <Quiznos> nods
15:54:58 <I440r> well
15:56:03 <I440r> if global labels are only supported by using coded definitions i see no bad side effects here :)
15:56:09 <I440r> code blah
15:56:12 <I440r>  ....
15:56:13 <I440r>   ret
15:56:15 <I440r> end-code
15:56:17 <I440r> code foo
15:56:18 <I440r>   ...
15:56:21 <I440r>   next end-code
15:56:27 <Quiznos> but dont you have to swap stk to get the ret-addy?
15:56:28 <I440r> where NEXT is the above macro
15:57:01 <I440r> no. but it would be very bad if someont typed BLAH into the terminal
15:57:07 <I440r> as it doesnt return via next
15:57:27 <I440r> but if the coded definition of foo had a "call blah" within it... .. .
15:57:50 <Quiznos> so you allow for unbalanced stacks
15:58:06 <Quiznos> that's alot of caveat for the programmer to know
15:58:10 <I440r> of course i do. i dont do any stack checking within the compiler
15:58:15 <I440r> except on user input
15:58:20 <I440r> i check for under/overflow
15:58:43 <I440r> but its not the compilers job to make sure YOU as the coder dont do stupid things
15:58:59 <Quiznos> but the code should check for what it can
15:59:05 <I440r> no
15:59:08 <Quiznos> the porpose of forth is to avoid doing stoopit programmer tricks
15:59:13 <Quiznos> let it do the work it can.
15:59:15 <I440r> it should check for nothing
15:59:38 <Quiznos> we part company on this point.
16:00:44 <I440r> : min 2dup < if begin nip ;  : max 2dup < until drop then ;
16:00:49 <I440r> i think those are right 
16:00:50 <I440r> from memory
16:01:37 <I440r> its NOT the compilers job to make sure YOu as the user are not doing silly things likle putting ifs in one definition with the closing then in another
16:01:56 <Quiznos> thatll only work if you've got some kind of tail-call optimsing going on
16:01:59 <I440r> same same.  the compiler should not be making sure you are keeping your stacks balanced. thats MOST unforthlike
16:02:21 <I440r> no. it works perfectly if you get the definitions right. i might not
16:02:28 <Quiznos> at semi, compiler should fault user for incomplete structure bc there's a closer missing
16:02:33 <I440r> i was doing it from memory.  they are chuck moores definitions for min and max
16:02:38 <Quiznos> ok
16:02:40 <I440r> no it should not
16:02:57 <I440r> thats the compiler playing mommy and protecting the poor helpless coder from him/herself
16:03:06 <I440r> thats NOT a forthism
16:03:07 <Quiznos> no, it's common sense forthism
16:03:12 <I440r> no. its not :)
16:03:23 <Quiznos> ok; again, we part company on this point.
16:03:33 <I440r> the forth way is for the compiler to NOT stop you from shooting YOU in the foot
16:04:01 <Quiznos> that's an former ism that should be done away with given contemporary machine specs
16:04:28 <Quiznos> you arent writing an engine for a tiny machine.
16:04:32 <I440r> bs the comtemporary machine specs are what should be done away with
16:04:47 <Quiznos> i mean what users and coders have in front of them
16:04:48 <I440r> btw. i do not belive those above definitions are GOOD
16:04:53 <Quiznos> ok
16:04:56 <I440r> what im arguing is that its GOOD that the compiler ALLOWS them
16:05:06 <I440r> the compiler is NOT there to hold your hand
16:05:18 <I440r> its there to produce code. EXACTLY the code you have specified
16:05:20 <I440r> no matter what
16:05:28 <Quiznos> and i'm not advocating that it do so; i'm saying that it should be able to check for incompleteness
16:05:32 <Quiznos> which it can
16:05:37 <I440r> : foo begin not then if do something while if stop ;
16:05:39 <Quiznos> else code it in asm
16:05:52 <I440r> the ONLY time the compiler should bitch is if at ; theres a stack overflow or stack underflow
16:05:54 <I440r> well
16:05:56 <Quiznos> only if that makes sense in the current implementaiton
16:06:00 <I440r> more like "at end of input"
16:06:32 <I440r> the forth language is USER DEFINED.  how can the compiler even begin to tell the user that what he wrote makes no sense to IT
16:06:41 <I440r> i dont give a DAMN if the code made no sense to the compiler
16:06:46 <Quiznos> you define the environment
16:06:50 <I440r> no.
16:06:53 <I440r> you define the language
16:06:56 <I440r> period
16:07:03 <I440r> there is no such thing as a forth program. 
16:07:11 <Quiznos> every word is a program
16:07:19 <I440r> there is forth and you change that language to fit your application
16:07:31 <I440r> YOU define the forth language by making IT fit your problem
16:07:32 <Quiznos> but you implemented the engine and core
16:07:35 <I440r> you dotn make your problem fit the language
16:07:37 <Quiznos> that's the environ
16:08:34 <I440r> someone once said about unix....
16:08:57 <I440r> we did not develop the unix operating system to prevent you from doing stupid things because that would also prevent you from doing clever things
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16:09:09 <Quiznos> i've read that too
16:09:12 <I440r> we can take your arguement further by making forth a typed language
16:09:26 <Quiznos> already been done :)
16:09:32 <I440r> i.e. NO you can NOT store that CHAR data in that memory address because that memory address is reserved for BYTE data
16:09:34 <I440r> wtf
16:09:48 <I440r> thats something that all forth programmers should be diametrically opposed to
16:10:05 <Quiznos> look mark, i get what you're saying but I think you're missing the chance to improve on the Forth concept;  even CM changed his own model.
16:10:09 <I440r> thats another (more radical) instance of the compiler dictating to the developer what he can and cannot do
16:10:10 <Quiznos> with the passage of time.
16:10:42 <I440r> well.  cm said that "the ans forth standard does not describe the forth language but a language of the same name"
16:10:54 <I440r> i say that statement can be equally applied to colorforth and seaforth
16:10:55 <Quiznos> nods; same with c, ansic and gnuc
16:11:13 <I440r> isforth is not ans compliant. its not 83 compilant
16:11:19 <I440r> its 100% ISFORTH compliant
16:11:20 <Quiznos> yea
16:11:36 <I440r> and ill never make isforth protect YOU from YOU
16:11:43 <Quiznos> pls dont document it like DMNPS or whatever that ansi document is 
16:11:59 <I440r> have you even looked at www.isforth.com?
16:12:11 <Quiznos> not in some time
16:12:40 <Quiznos> locahost isnt doing so well; bowser probs, x probs; slow to fix but getting there.
16:12:51 <I440r> suggest you browse it extensivly.  every word, label, constant, variable, EVERYTHING in the entire forth kernel is documented there
16:12:56 <I440r> ive also started on the extensions
16:12:58 <Quiznos> ok
16:13:06 <I440r> what distro do you use
16:13:11 <Quiznos> slack
16:13:26 <I440r> erm.  slack is too difficult to maintain
16:13:32 <Quiznos> not to me
16:13:32 <I440r> try gentoo. its far FAR superior
16:14:01 <I440r> i can do a gentoo install in my sleep. if you boot a machine to the install cd and create a login i can do the install fro you from HERE :P
16:14:06 <Quiznos> i've been a slacker far too long to change; but i have tried and occasionally use live-cd's
16:14:13 <Quiznos> lol
16:14:16 <Quiznos> nah
16:14:45 <Quiznos> on your cell phone no doubt? :)
16:14:50 <I440r> gentoo handles deps better than ANY other distro. period
16:15:06 <Quiznos> i dont need that level of dep handling.
16:15:14 <I440r> erm i think they DO produce a ssh client for my phone but im not about to pay for it :P
16:15:22 <Quiznos> k :)
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