00:00:00 --- log: started forth/09.09.09
01:00:33 --- quit: DrunkTomato ()
01:47:04 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke")
01:51:26 --- join: aguaithefreak (n=aguai@114-36-112-219.dynamic.hinet.net) joined #forth
02:41:37 --- quit: schme (Remote closed the connection)
02:42:03 --- join: schme (n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se) joined #forth
03:04:54 --- join: neceve (n=ncv@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth
03:39:17 --- quit: crc (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
03:39:17 --- quit: madwork (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
03:39:17 --- quit: uiu_ (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
03:50:37 --- join: crc (n=charlesc@c-68-80-139-0.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth
03:50:37 --- join: madwork (n=madgarde@204.138.110.15) joined #forth
03:50:37 --- join: uiu_ (n=ian@schihei.net) joined #forth
05:07:55 --- join: thom_ (n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth
06:02:03 --- quit: crc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
06:26:54 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth
07:12:47 --- join: GeDaMo (n=gedamo@212.225.115.96) joined #forth
07:23:34 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke")
07:59:45 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@LRouen-152-83-15-79.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth
08:38:51 --- join: DrunkTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth
08:41:39 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving")
08:52:26 --- quit: GeDaMo ("Leaving.")
09:40:29 --- join: pgas (n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/pgas) joined #forth
09:41:09 --- join: impomatic (n=John@nat67.mia.three.co.uk) joined #forth
10:19:28 --- quit: tgunr (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
10:20:02 --- join: tgunr (n=tgunr@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth
11:03:39 --- join: f[x] (n=user@121-6-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net) joined #forth
11:39:15 --- quit: thom_ ("This computer has gone to sleep")
12:51:24 --- quit: f[x] (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
12:59:55 --- join: Quartus` (n=Quartus`@74.198.12.4) joined #forth
14:05:46 --- quit: pgas ("/quit")
14:11:50 --- quit: kar8nga (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
14:43:56 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
14:49:02 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-088-068-207-187.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
14:49:10 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection)
15:25:43 --- join: I440r (n=mark4__@c-69-136-171-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth
15:29:58 --- join: crc (n=charlesc@c-68-80-139-0.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth
15:29:58 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc
17:05:44 --- join: thom_ (n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth
17:08:09 --- quit: madgarden ("Leaving")
17:09:26 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@CPE001d7e527f89-CM00159a65a870.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth
17:40:04 --- quit: thom_ ("This computer has gone to sleep")
18:28:15 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@210.188.173.245) joined #forth
19:09:29 --- join: thom_ (n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth
19:55:55 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:52:25 --- quit: thom_ ("This computer has gone to sleep")
21:06:10 --- join: Rugxulo (n=user@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net) joined #forth
21:06:27 <Rugxulo> aha, I recognize crc   :-)
21:06:47 <I440r> hi
21:06:58 <I440r> did u used to have a different nic?
21:07:13 <Rugxulo> probably not what you're thinking, so no
21:07:34 <I440r> im was figuring you were a regular either in here or in one of crc's other chans :)
21:07:49 <Rugxulo> neither, seen him on http://board.flatassembler.net
21:08:43 <I440r> aha
21:08:58 <I440r> is flatassembler based on nasm? or is taht just yasm?
21:09:30 <Rugxulo> that's yasm
21:09:31 <I440r> isforth is nasm tho... i would prefer it if it had a built in assembler (pipe dream)
21:09:35 <Rugxulo> FASM is written in itself   ;-)
21:09:38 <I440r> i know yasm is
21:09:46 <I440r> aha are you the author?
21:09:51 <Rugxulo> nope
21:09:56 <I440r> kk
21:09:59 <Rugxulo> that's Tomasz G.
21:10:11 * Rugxulo is just some random schmo
21:10:44 <I440r> heh ull fit rite in here :P
21:11:06 <I440r> u shud convert to forth. }:)
21:11:31 <Rugxulo> seen Forth a little, liked it, didn't quite understand every nook and cranny, recently (past two weeks) been playing with Befunge a lot   ;-)
21:11:36 <I440r> did u just randomly drop by or were u looking for someone? :)
21:11:43 <Rugxulo> random, is that okay?  :-)
21:11:46 <I440r> yea. that doesnt take as long to get to grips with as most ppl think
21:11:51 <I440r> maybe :)
21:12:00 <I440r> lol
21:12:07 <I440r> ANYONE is welcome in this channel
21:12:10 <I440r> erm mostly lol
21:12:29 <I440r> i also prefer the channel to not be anally retentive about what people are and are not allowed to talk about
21:12:37 <I440r> no topic is "off topic"
21:13:14 <I440r> tho. i dont exactly dictate taht policy either heh
21:13:43 * Rugxulo isn't familiar with isforth
21:14:12 <I440r> well. thats ok too. i LIKE it when ppl use my work but if you chose a "standard" forth thats ok too
21:14:27 <Rugxulo> standard as in ANSI?
21:14:33 <I440r> ya
21:14:44 <I440r> im probably the single most anti ans forth person you will ever meet :)
21:14:46 <Rugxulo> usually that means GForth
21:15:01 <Rugxulo> I doubt it, there are lots of Forth gurus who do things their own way
21:15:01 <I440r> http://www.isforth.com/docs.php?t=ans
21:15:22 <I440r> well im somewhat RABID about my anti ans beliefs
21:15:29 <I440r> which rubs some ppl the wrong way :)
21:15:47 <Rugxulo> actually, I think there are now two FASM-based Forths:  Reva, FreeForth
21:15:57 <I440r> ive heared of reva
21:16:00 <Rugxulo> (RetroForth? I can't remember, I guess it used something else)
21:16:12 <Rugxulo> I'll be honest, I always confuse crc with ronware   :-)
21:16:13 <I440r> retro is crc's im not sure if its nasm or not
21:16:17 <I440r> lol
21:16:19 <I440r> ronware?
21:16:24 <Rugxulo> the Reva dude
21:16:38 <I440r> oh diff ppl for sure :)
21:16:41 <Rugxulo> I think Reva was loosely based upon Retro, and I know FreeForth was a least partially inspired by RetroForth
21:16:51 <I440r> ya
21:17:04 <I440r> i know reva is retro based
21:17:15 <Rugxulo> very loosely though, by now
21:17:20 <Rugxulo> from what I can tell
21:17:20 <I440r> i wish the authors of those would hang in here
21:17:33 <I440r> its ok. isforth is "very loosly" based on tom zimmers FPC for dos :P
21:17:33 <Rugxulo> Ron had a website, but I forget   :-/
21:17:42 <Rugxulo> so isforth runs in DOS?
21:17:55 <I440r> actually i have a version of it that does but isforth is a linux forth
21:17:56 * Rugxulo downloaded but never really used FPC
21:18:11 <Rugxulo> of course, Linux Linux Linux ("Marsha Marsha Marsha")   ;-)
21:18:26 <I440r> the kernel for isforth was coded in assembler and assembles with nasm
21:18:34 <I440r> i use no external libraries for anything
21:19:04 <I440r> even if you dont USE isforth u shud check out the sources, ive had ppl tell me that they understand them somewhat even though they dont code asm OR forth
21:19:08 <I440r> had a few ppl say that
21:19:17 * Rugxulo knows a little asm
21:19:34 <I440r> its kind of a prime directive for ppl to be able to understand the code. even if you dont understand the language (yet?)
21:20:04 <I440r> and im working on isforth.com. i think the entire kernel is documented there but i want to improve on it A LOT
21:20:20 <I440r> ive also got quite a bit of the extensions documented but this also needs more work
21:22:27 <Rugxulo> so you use Linux syscalls directly?
21:22:32 <I440r> yup
21:22:47 <Rugxulo> I was gonna say, isforth.com via NASM ... you kinda have to  :-)
21:22:55 <Rugxulo> you know FASM also runs on Linux   :-))
21:23:10 <Rugxulo> (among others) and assembles itself
21:23:14 <I440r> heh no. dont HAVE to but linking to a lib at that level would have been counter productive
21:23:24 <I440r> yes. i think ive looked at the soruces
21:23:34 <I440r> if i remember right they are about as well commented as nasm
21:23:40 <I440r> i.e. practically nothing in there
21:23:50 <I440r> which seems to be the MO for most coders these days
21:23:52 <Rugxulo> literally there is only like 5% comments (or less!) in FASM   :-(
21:24:02 <I440r> thers over 50% comments in isforth
21:24:18 <I440r> which is why people can read and understand it
21:25:13 <I440r> isforth needs an assembler built in but in the 2465294 years ive been working on it (off and on) ive not been able to get my head around that problem
21:25:32 <Rugxulo> well, it would be vastly different syntax probably
21:25:38 <Rugxulo> lots of people have tried, though
21:25:46 <I440r> no. thats the point
21:26:02 <I440r> i will NOT use a traditional forth assembler where move eax, 5 becomes 5 # eax mov
21:26:34 <I440r> if you wrote the single best forth assembler in the world i would not use it unless it could take my EXISTING sources and assemble those AS IS
21:26:41 <Rugxulo> dumb question, but is isforth completely 386 or does it use newer instructions too?
21:26:44 <I440r> i would accept the injection of a space or two here or there
21:26:50 <Rugxulo> 'cause anything more than 586 gets complicated fast
21:26:51 <I440r> it uses newer
21:26:55 <I440r> not really
21:27:03 <I440r> not if you look at the opcodes in ocral
21:27:03 <Rugxulo> newer? such as?
21:27:05 <I440r> octal
21:27:14 <Rugxulo> ocral is easy to understand too, from what I hear   ;-)
21:27:19 <I440r> well im not using mmx or sse or even fpu
21:27:28 <Rugxulo> CMOV?
21:27:32 <I440r> no
21:27:46 <I440r> im not doing any "fancy" stuff
21:28:02 <I440r> mov eax, [ebx + 2 * edx]  <-- there might be some of that tho
21:28:56 <I440r> i consider cmov to be an opcode only the OS iteself should be messing with
21:29:26 <I440r> do u run linux?
21:29:41 <Rugxulo> not really, though I've tried it semi-infrequently
21:29:50 <I440r> what do u run?
21:29:53 <I440r> windows?
21:30:03 <Rugxulo> yes although "for fun" I use DOS
21:30:06 <I440r> i went cold turkey from windows to linux
21:30:07 --- quit: DrunkTomato ()
21:30:10 <I440r> i still run dos :P
21:30:16 <Rugxulo> I don't program Windows
21:30:23 <I440r> i blew away EVERYTHING (except my asm sources :)
21:30:26 <I440r> me either
21:30:41 <I440r> i didnt even downgrade from dos To windows till 98 was already out for over a year
21:31:05 <I440r> i think microsoft has never, in their entire history of their existence EVER produced anything worthwhile
21:31:24 <I440r> the only reason i even have any OS's of theirs is because work kind of demanded it
21:31:46 <I440r> i have an xp install in a VM here and i have my laptop dual booting to it
21:31:59 <I440r> 99.9999999999% of my time is spent in linux
21:32:01 <Rugxulo> so you've never tried Vista?
21:32:15 * Rugxulo is on Vista now
21:32:23 <I440r> yes i have vista installed in a vm here too. i think ive booted it aobut 8 or 9 times and i just hate it more and more and more
21:32:29 <Rugxulo> not saying it's a bad OS, it's not, it works okay, but for DOS is blows big time (way worse than XP)
21:32:31 <I440r> i dont even run it
21:32:43 <I440r> i have dos installed into a vm here
21:32:46 <I440r> with virtualbox
21:33:13 <I440r> ill probably be releasing my dos version of isforth eventually
21:33:15 <I440r> but thats not nasm
21:33:25 <I440r> that will only assemble with a registered version of a386
21:33:35 <Rugxulo> which I have   :-)
21:33:41 <I440r> you registered?
21:33:42 <Rugxulo> but should be easy to translate to something else anyways
21:33:48 <Rugxulo> yes
21:33:53 <I440r> i live abut 10 miles from EJI
21:33:54 <I440r> and no
21:34:10 <Rugxulo> no? too many macros? it can't be THAT hard
21:34:15 <I440r> i very VERY seriously doubt you could translate those sources into anything that didnt turn them into a clusterfuck
21:34:24 <Rugxulo> heh
21:34:34 <Rugxulo> I didn't say I want to go through that tedium, just that it's possible   ;-)
21:34:35 <I440r> no not too many. i just make use of some VERY CLEVER macros
21:34:41 <I440r> heh
21:34:46 <Rugxulo> ndisasm ftw!   ;-)
21:35:01 <Rugxulo> how big is isforth.com anyways? (20k?)
21:35:10 <I440r> the executable?
21:35:25 <I440r> -rwxr-xr-x  1 mark4 mark4  72255 Feb  1  2009 isforth-old
21:35:44 <I440r> wtf why isnt there a ./isforth in there lol
21:35:50 <Rugxulo> I assume most of that is data
21:35:52 <I440r> but yea thas about the rite size
21:35:55 <I440r> alot of it is
21:36:03 <Rugxulo> pwned by teh evil 0verl0rdz!!
21:36:22 <I440r> -rwxr-xr-x  1 mark4 mark4  80507 Sep  9 23:36 kernel.com
21:36:29 <I440r> thats the size of the unextended forth kernel
21:36:38 <I440r> ewww thats unstripped lol
21:36:55 <Rugxulo> strip it then upx it   ;-)
21:37:00 <I440r> -rwxr-xr-x  1 mark4 mark4  17668 Sep  9 23:36 kernel.com
21:37:07 <Rugxulo> O_O
21:37:19 <I440r> the extensions are quite extensive
21:37:41 <Rugxulo> such as what exactly?
21:37:48 <I440r> i have a very VERY nice forth version of ncurses but that only takes about 4k of object space in the executable
21:38:09 <I440r> well thats ONE extension. thers also a memory manager in there which most forths traditionally dont have
21:38:31 <I440r> download it and take a look :)
21:38:38 <Rugxulo> Linux version?
21:38:39 <I440r> i kinda gotta go zzz. got werk
21:38:50 <I440r> ya i didnt release the dos version yet
21:39:01 <I440r> i plan to tho
21:39:03 <Rugxulo> I know, but I'm wondering why separate FreeBSD and PPC downloads?
21:39:31 <I440r> because ppc is not x86 and because fbsd has a totally different way of doing syscalls
21:39:33 <Rugxulo> and okay, nitey nite  ;-)
21:39:38 <I440r> the fbsd doesnt work any more
21:39:40 <Rugxulo> yes, I know all that
21:39:42 <Rugxulo> o_O
21:39:52 <Rugxulo> I wonder if Linux compatibility would work then
21:40:05 <I440r> im a heretic. im about " <-- that interested in maintaining portability
21:40:29 <Rugxulo> same with every other Linux user   :-)
21:40:34 <I440r> nope im pretty sure it didnt when i tried it heh
21:40:35 <Rugxulo> and Windows too
21:40:50 <I440r> no. "one source file fits all" is the modern way
21:40:51 <Rugxulo> Mac OS X is worse (10.4 or 10.5 required for almost everything), SNOBS!
21:41:11 <Rugxulo> not if it isn't one of the big three, esp. *nix
21:41:21 <I440r> cept its one source file with 2984659284 #defines which serves only to intereleave 248956294 different versions of that source file all into the same clusterfuck gordian knot
21:41:33 <I440r> which is why i wont support conditional compilation in isforth
21:41:59 <Rugxulo> yes, IOCCC proved that anything can be misused   ;-)
21:42:08 <I440r> anyway i do gotta zzz
21:42:10 <I440r> lol
21:42:17 <Rugxulo> okay
21:42:19 <Rugxulo> nitey nite
21:42:30 <I440r> download it tho and take a look :)
21:42:35 <Rugxulo> done  :-)
21:44:08 <Rugxulo> P.S. can't help but laugh, "License" is bigger than "kernel.com"    :-))
21:54:20 <I440r> lol im a heretic
21:54:40 <Rugxulo> why?
21:55:22 <I440r> i dont produce bloatware
21:55:58 <Rugxulo> Linux isn't exactly small anymore
21:56:02 <Rugxulo> (nor Windows)
21:56:13 <Rugxulo> FreeDOS ftw!   :-)
21:56:43 <I440r> no but its not bloated either
21:56:55 <I440r> and its secure. windows never has been and never will be
21:57:07 <I440r> anyway now im gone for sure lol
22:03:56 --- part: Rugxulo left #forth
22:57:21 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@LRouen-152-83-15-79.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth
23:22:00 --- join: f[x] (n=user@129-3-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net) joined #forth
23:37:09 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote closed the connection)
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/09.09.09