00:00:00 --- log: started forth/09.09.03 00:38:26 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@210.188.173.245) joined #forth 01:00:54 --- join: thom_ (n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 01:04:20 --- join: GeDaMo (n=gedamo@212.225.115.96) joined #forth 01:28:43 --- quit: garfield__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:28:56 --- join: garfield__ (n=uwekloss@p54867B43.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 01:29:15 --- quit: f_[x] (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:29:53 --- join: Mat2 (n=user@p57A226E2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 01:30:07 hello 01:30:18 Hi Mat2 :) 01:31:43 not much discussion here ! 01:33:00 I seach for some discussion about the rational behind ANS wordlist implementation 01:34:34 Compromise is the rationale for pretty much everything in ANS 01:35:47 hmm, that's a very questionable design decisn in my opinion 01:37:23 I have some ideas about a dictionary concept based upon set theory (create sets which than can be simply joined or cloned as intersection or union sets etc.) 01:40:50 <- decision I mean 01:41:08 Aren't sets usually unordered? 01:41:50 I'm just wondering if that might create problems with search order 01:42:34 --- join: DrunkTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 01:42:54 yes, I have a implementation for retroforth but problems if I build a union set 01:43:58 that's because retroforth uses a simple linked list 01:48:09 (just like FIG Forth) 01:50:34 It's normal in Forth to search words in reverse definition order, a linked list is a simple way to do that 01:53:45 ok, but what if one want to move some words from one wordlist to another or duplicate whole wordlists ? 01:55:01 Hmmm ... why would you want to do that? 01:56:13 because this way I don't burdened with wordset hirarchies for the search list 01:57:13 it would be possible to simply create a set which inlcudes all words needed 01:57:28 (at run-time of course) 01:57:56 Just imagine you have two wordlists containing the same word and you want to search both - how do you determine the order they're searched in? 01:58:16 I use an intersection set 01:58:55 That allows you to determine the order? 02:00:42 --- quit: maht (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 02:02:02 I think so, the resulting is a simplke word list 02:02:05 simple 02:07:26 ok, I must work now, thanks for the discussion 02:07:29 ciao 02:08:51 --- quit: Mat2 ("Verlassend") 02:09:08 --- quit: gogonkt ("Lost terminal") 02:34:24 --- join: gogonkt (n=info@218.13.56.103) joined #forth 02:42:18 --- quit: impomatic ("mov.i #1,1") 02:59:12 --- join: f_[x] (n=user@241-90-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net) joined #forth 03:21:25 --- quit: nighty^ (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:21:33 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:21:33 --- quit: segher (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:21:34 --- quit: schme (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:21:34 --- quit: DrunkTomato (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:21:35 --- quit: madwork (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:21:35 --- quit: cmeme (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:21:35 --- quit: gnomon (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:21:35 --- quit: malyn (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:21:35 --- quit: KevinFish (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:21:37 --- quit: mathrick (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:21:37 --- quit: tarbo_ (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:21:37 --- quit: madgarden (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:21:38 --- quit: drhodes (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:22:00 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@CPE001d7e527f89-CM00159a65a870.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 03:22:00 --- join: drhodes (n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net) joined #forth 03:26:10 --- quit: nighty__ (Client Quit) 03:27:14 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 03:27:36 --- join: schme (n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme) joined #forth 03:27:58 --- join: DrunkTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 03:27:58 --- join: madwork (n=madgarde@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 03:27:58 --- join: cmeme (n=cmeme@boa.b9.com) joined #forth 03:27:58 --- join: gnomon (n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 03:28:00 --- join: maht (n=maht__@85-189-31-174.proweb.managedbroadband.co.uk) joined #forth 03:28:00 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-111-112.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 03:28:00 --- join: segher (n=rehges@84-105-60-153.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 03:28:03 --- join: KevinFish (n=fish@c-98-208-14-225.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 03:28:03 --- join: malyn (n=malyn@unaffiliated/malyn) joined #forth 03:28:27 --- join: mathrick (n=mathrick@130.226.70.177) joined #forth 03:28:27 --- join: tarbo_ (n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo) joined #forth 04:13:13 --- quit: f_[x] (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:15:26 --- quit: GeDaMo ("Leaving.") 04:19:42 --- quit: DrunkTomato () 06:01:48 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@LRouen-152-83-15-79.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth 06:06:09 --- join: luptenschteiner (n=User@unaffiliated/probonono) joined #forth 06:14:21 --- join: f_[x] (n=user@95.132.255.176) joined #forth 06:20:52 --- quit: probonono (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:24:01 --- quit: tgunr (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:31:13 --- join: DrunkTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 06:37:28 --- join: InvisibleTomato (n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru) joined #forth 06:52:26 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote closed the connection) 07:00:14 --- quit: DrunkTomato (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:05:26 --- join: impomatic (n=John@nat65.mia.three.co.uk) joined #forth 07:16:56 --- join: GeDaMo (n=gedamo@212.225.115.96) joined #forth 07:20:52 --- join: jauaor (n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo) joined #forth 07:23:05 Hi :-) 07:26:52 Hi impomatic :) 07:30:57 :) 07:33:50 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 07:54:53 --- nick: luptenschteiner -> probonono 08:56:21 --- quit: nighty__ (Client Quit) 09:30:08 --- quit: gogonkt ("Lost terminal") 09:30:53 --- join: gogonkt (n=info@218.13.56.103) joined #forth 10:28:32 --- join: pgas (n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/pgas) joined #forth 10:47:19 --- quit: f_[x] (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:49:23 --- quit: jauaor (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 10:52:12 --- join: neceve (n=ncv@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 10:53:04 --- quit: thom_ ("This computer has gone to sleep") 10:58:35 BEANS 11:09:22 Jelly Beans? 11:09:34 --- join: thom_ (n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 11:19:42 any kind :) 11:33:03 --- quit: thom_ ("This computer has gone to sleep") 11:53:35 Beans, beans, the musical fruit, the more you eat, the more you toot :P 12:15:46 --- join: Judofyr (n=Judofyr@cE49EBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) joined #forth 12:24:59 --- join: aguaithefreak (i=aguai@114-36-119-210.dynamic.hinet.net) joined #forth 12:26:04 --- quit: aguaithefreak (SendQ exceeded) 12:26:25 --- join: aguaithefreak (i=aguai@114-36-119-210.dynamic.hinet.net) joined #forth 12:42:21 --- quit: KevinFish ("Leaving.") 12:49:08 --- join: Quartus` (n=Quartus`@74.198.12.6) joined #forth 12:53:35 --- join: Qcoder00 (n=chatzill@dyn-62-56-104-242.dslaccess.co.uk) joined #forth 12:53:49 I don't need to implement a FORTH in BBCBASIC 12:54:04 Someones ported over a VERY simple FORTH already 12:54:17 Why would you have to do it in the first place? (: 12:54:46 schme: Because I wanted to use some specifcis about VDU code 12:55:19 ok you've lost me :) 12:55:51 Anyway... http://annexia.org/forth seems to be what was adpated by someone else 12:56:07 schme: Rather than having to write a Lot of windows API calls 12:56:44 I just do Move 800,400 , Draw 900,400 to draw a straight line in BBC BASIC 12:56:52 In forth that would be something like 12:57:04 What I was wondering was.. why would you do anything in BBC BASIC? (: 12:57:05 800 400 MOVE 900 400 LINE etc... 12:57:13 schme: Portablity ;) 12:57:20 :O 12:57:32 You could, of course, do it MOVE 800 400 LINE 900 400 ;) 12:57:43 Huh? 12:57:54 I thought you put params on a FORTH stack first? 12:58:13 Not if you make your word read forward. 12:58:31 But really, don't do that (: 12:58:35 I'm not fully understanding 12:59:01 Also in BBC BaSIC Grpahics is done by sending control code via the charcter IO... 12:59:23 On the original BBC Micro you did grpahics something like this 12:59:58 : oswrch
of routine CALL 13:00:21 Sorry 13:00:29 (: 13:00:31 I am tyring to recall what the code is... 13:00:35 http://www.bbcbasic.co.uk/bbcbasic.html 13:00:47 anyway oswrch was a system routine 13:01:03 which in BBC BASIC you accessed via CALL form BASIC 13:01:12 so if I'm understanding this all right.. you're running bbcbasic on windows ? 13:02:13 --- join: Qcoder00_ (n=chatzill@dyn-62-56-126-141.dslaccess.co.uk) joined #forth 13:02:34 GeDaMo: That there is nuts. 13:02:40 Why is anyone using this? (: 13:02:45 --- quit: Qcoder00 (Nick collision from services.) 13:02:51 --- nick: Qcoder00_ -> Qcoder00 13:02:53 Why? BBC BASIC's good :P 13:03:09 I asked if anyone had done a FORTH in BBC BASIC 13:03:35 Someone said it would be better to do a FORTH directly that used the BBC Micro style I/O 13:03:50 From what I remember there was a Forth available on the BBC micro 13:03:50 GeDaMo: I have never used it. Haven't used basic since I let go of my zx. is it better than any other random basic? 13:04:04 schme: The Windows incarnation is 13:04:10 GeDaMo: Indeed 13:04:13 2 13:04:21 There are undoubtedly better basics available now but it was good at the time 13:04:25 One was a straightforward implementation of Forth-79 IIRC 13:04:36 The other was a specalist FORTH called AMPLE 13:04:44 which was used to control a synth 13:04:50 woho 13:04:50 Yeah, I had the Hybrid 500 13:05:01 isn't controlling synths the purpose of pretty much everything anyway? (: 13:05:12 The reason I had asked about a BBC BASIC FORTH 13:05:16 --- quit: Judofyr (K-lined) 13:05:23 was because I had wanted to see an AMPLE for Windows 13:05:25 ;) 13:05:52 http://www.colinfraser.com/m5000/m5000.htm 13:05:53 Given that AMPLE is essentialy a specialist FORTH dictionary 13:05:55 It sounds like you would get rt problems there. 13:06:20 schme: Some of the original Music 5000 was controlled in assembler code 13:06:24 Could one ever imagine getting good latency running like that? 13:06:27 Sure. 13:06:40 but on top of some basic in windows.. wouldn't that be shit for latency? (: 13:06:47 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 13:06:52 schme: DirectMusic manages not to lag 13:06:59 Many games use DirectSound 13:07:23 lag is not what I'm talking. 13:07:28 and DirectSound had been driven from BBC Basic 13:07:31 if you want to control a synth you want *low* latency. 13:07:47 No serious audio software uses directsound because of latency issues. 13:07:47 schme: the thought I had for a Windows AMPLE 13:08:00 You would have too look into something like ASIO 13:08:03 was to not control the synth directly but to have it generate MIDI messages 13:08:23 Given that most synths connected to Windows stuff are MIDI these days 13:08:28 Yes. 13:08:41 but they bypass pretty much all of windows. Using something like ASIO. 13:08:47 to avoid the high latency of windows. 13:08:53 GeDaMo: So given that AMPLE is a specialist FORTH dictionary... 13:09:27 Is it plausible to think that a Windows AMPLE could be implemented using a sutiable Win32 based forth ? 13:09:52 I don't see why not 13:10:27 The core difference is that you would need to send MIDI msgs rather than controlling the synth directly 13:10:53 I see windows users reporting 40-50ms latency on MIDI. It's way too much :( 13:10:58 That is unless someone is masochistic enough to write the assmbler code to make FORTH words for talking with ASIO 13:11:07 Or do it under Linux 13:11:31 But it's a fun project for sure (: 13:13:30 iForth seems to have some MIDI related software 13:13:44 woho 13:13:46 (: 13:16:21 GeDaMo: Jonesforth which I linked seems to be under a liberal license 13:16:38 It however would need a lot of work to bring it up to being a Windows AMPLE 13:16:42 Jonesforth is an example of how to implement a forth 13:16:57 (for a start it's got no real error protection) 13:17:24 GeDaMo: If someone implements an AMPLE for Linux I will be suprised . 13:19:57 GeDaMo: Richard Russell who wrote BB4W appears to have taken JonesForth's example and written a limited wrapper for it 13:20:18 I.E It uses some internal BB4W routines as a bootstrap to start 13:20:49 On Windows to get MIDI support would mean coding some stuff to do a WIn32 api call to MidiOpen etc... 13:21:02 but I can see AMPLE on Windows being possible 13:21:10 On Unix systems you should just be able to open the MIDI interface as a file 13:22:38 http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/manxgeneral.html looks a bit familar ;) 13:23:02 GeDaMo: If you are interested in trying to do AMPLE for Linux I wish you the best of luck :) 13:23:17 I thought you wanted to do it? 13:39:31 --- quit: pgas ("/quit") 13:40:39 No 13:40:46 I was only floating an idea :) 13:41:04 I don't know enough yet to be able to consider doing it :) 13:52:21 http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/manxgeneral.html hmm 13:52:21 To be honest someone could probably reporgram MANX to read AMPLE 13:52:21 iForth seems to be a commerical FORTH system though 13:52:21 Jonesforth at least has the advantge of being free 13:52:21 gForth and interfacing with Linux that way is another possibility... 13:52:21 Hmm... 13:52:21 I should start a page 13:52:21 There's also bigForth 13:52:21 As despite by name I am not a FORTH coder to any level of experience. 13:52:21 *my 13:52:21 "MINOS is available under the GPL, not the LGPL. I want to stress that this means you cannot develop applications with it that are not either under the GPL, or distributed seperately as sources, just as with other GPLed libraries (for example, readline). For people wanting to develop applications with it that are under different licencing conditions, a [html]commercial licence is available... 13:52:21 ...at request so that MINOS can be a choice for proprietary systems, too. I'll certainly give major contributors a fair share." 13:52:21 Since when has a tool being GPL meant you can't develop NON GPL code with it? 13:52:21 Anyway 13:52:21 GeDaMo 13:52:21 : As i said I'm probably not the best person to try and code a large project 13:52:21 but providing MIDI support in Windows for Jonesforth is possibly very easy... 13:52:24 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bb4w/files/Miscellaneous/forth.zip is the Richard T Russel verison, although you will need to be a memebr of the BB4W Yahoo Group to download it :) 14:06:34 It runs, but there's no error checking ;) 14:06:36 :( 14:06:48 So things like stack underflow aren;t yet looked for. 14:06:54 I have to go 14:07:21 GeDaMo: Please consider looking into a translation of AMPLE to a Linux Forth system though ;) 14:07:36 I hope it's an idea that's worth looking into :) 14:07:38 --- part: Qcoder00 left #forth 14:07:52 I have difficulty completing a coherent sentence let alone doing any serious programming :P 14:21:51 "Since when has a tool being GPL meant you can't develop NON GPL code with it?" -- that's because MINOS is not just a tool, but a *GPL'd library* 14:54:50 There was a BBC Forth ROM and accompanying book on eBay a couple of weeks ago. 15:00:19 Qcoder is a bit obsessed with that AMPLE thing 15:11:41 --- quit: GeDaMo ("Leaving.") 16:26:40 --- join: scj (i=syljo361@static-ip-62-75-255-125.inaddr.server4you.de) joined #forth 16:38:50 --- quit: InvisibleTomato (Client Quit) 16:53:42 --- quit: Quartus` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:40:29 --- join: KevinFish (n=fish@c-98-208-14-225.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:17:20 --- quit: impomatic (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:58:38 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@210.188.173.245) joined #forth 19:47:01 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 19:54:50 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (i=Snoopy_1@dslb-088-068-207-161.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 20:32:14 --- join: thom_ (n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 20:40:53 --- quit: segher (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 20:48:21 --- quit: thom_ ("This computer has gone to sleep") 21:26:13 --- join: C0LTz (n=C0LTz@c-98-223-58-184.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:43:49 --- join: thom_ (n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 23:03:39 --- quit: C0LTz (Remote closed the connection) 23:10:20 --- quit: KevinFish ("Leaving.") 23:36:48 --- join: f_[x] (n=user@95.133.253.105) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/09.09.03