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host)) 06:40:12 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@61.7.144.97) joined #forth 06:43:49 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@59.38.224.237) joined #forth 06:44:01 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 06:50:59 I440r yes i'm greek ;p 06:57:31 --- quit: gogonkt`1 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 07:02:08 --- join: crc (i=d8012b82@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-56802f69324e1507) joined #forth 07:02:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 07:04:07 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@59.39.12.171) joined #forth 07:10:41 lol :) 07:10:54 my sister lives in athens 07:11:09 no were not greek tho she THINKS she is :P~ 07:35:53 --- join: Twey (n=Twey@unaffiliated/twey) joined #forth 07:48:06 --- quit: nighty__ (Client Quit) 07:48:26 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 07:49:26 --- quit: nighty__ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:51:32 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 07:53:26 --- join: H4ns1 (n=hans@p57A0EBD7.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 08:03:05 --- join: kar8nga2 (n=kar8nga@e-17.vc-graz.ac.at) joined #forth 08:07:20 --- join: kar8nga3 (n=kar8nga@e-17.vc-graz.ac.at) joined #forth 08:08:00 --- nick: kar8nga3 -> kar8nga 08:08:38 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 08:09:57 --- quit: H4ns (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:11:59 --- quit: kar8nga2 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 08:12:55 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@218.13.62.129) joined #forth 08:14:07 athens heh 08:14:26 i got myself out of there asap 08:15:01 Is it the city of terror? 08:15:22 BTW, why is lispnik interested in Forth? 08:15:56 minimalistic nature of forth 08:16:13 its just a bad city to live in 08:16:19 not my cup of tea 08:17:03 Well... 08:17:24 I really don't understand why Lisp minimalist might be interested in Forth. 08:17:39 There's more convenient way to minimal system, Scheme. 08:17:44 i dont like scheme 08:17:55 i do everything lisp in CL 08:18:36 Forth is worse anyway. 08:19:00 It combines worst of Scheme and Lisp in one: 08:19:00 well you can have 3-instruction forth implementation in 66 bytes 08:19:08 it is minimalistic and chaotic. 08:19:09 * H4ns1 is a lisper, too 08:19:11 don't think thats possible with scheme 08:19:17 --- nick: H4ns1 -> H4ns 08:19:30 i forth like because it is close to the metal. 08:19:40 3-instruction forth is cheating. 08:20:08 You can cheat that way in Common Lisp as well. 08:21:27 what do you mean by cheating 08:21:40 you have a host for the heavy duty stuff 08:21:43 athens is dirty and crowded 08:21:51 Have you read that Sergeant's article? 08:21:53 Is this #lisp all of a sudden? :) 08:22:12 * schmx likes forth because CL does the garbage collecting ;) 08:22:18 That 3-ins. Forth _is_ cheating. 08:23:02 lol #forth is not like other channels here. we have NO rules about "OFF TOPIC!!!" 08:23:05 It is send, receive, and execute _remotely_. 08:23:08 :) 08:23:33 So, what of any of the three you can't do in Common Lisp? 08:23:36 I440r: Nah, I'm just amused by how everyone is a lisper all of a sudden. 08:23:42 heh 08:23:46 not me 08:23:54 (also I think the question why do you, as a lisper, like forth? is a bit odd) 08:24:02 I440r: Hey aren't you the isforth guy? 08:24:08 maybe :) 08:24:30 im working on the documentation atm, i got the entire kernel documented and am working on the extensions 08:24:46 schmx, uses isforth? 08:25:11 No, I do not. I just randomly ran into the site for it ohh.. two or three days ago. 08:25:18 --- nick: schmx -> schme 08:25:28 ASau you can do everything in CL 08:25:35 just not in 66 bytes 08:25:42 its a new site and still under construction 08:25:48 I440r: I was curious if there was any work done towards an ARM port of it, but I assumed no :) 08:25:49 its only had a thousand or so hits lol 08:25:58 i would LOVE an arm port of it 08:26:17 xristos: if you make that 3-ins. Forth separation on host-target, it doesn't count. 08:26:31 there used to be a PPC port of it but thatas not maintinaed any more 08:26:31 xristos: you can't do that in 66 bytes _either_. 08:26:34 same witjh the fbsd port 08:26:40 Right. 08:26:56 xristos: you just omit code size of host part. 08:26:59 ASau yeah but i dont care about the host 08:27:03 right now my primary concern is the documentation which has been severely lacking 08:27:26 im not only writing the docs im developing the entire CMS that isforth.com uses 08:27:31 Ouch. 08:27:40 xristos: target part is also suspicious. 08:27:44 php/sqlite etc etc. and im NOOB at both haha 08:27:50 ASau in what way 08:27:54 xristos: first, you omit communication code size. 08:27:55 i pretty much got the cms worked out 08:28:11 I440r: The site seems usable anyway :) 08:28:27 ill add in a search feature eventually 08:28:37 I think I'll give this isforth a try, and see if I get interested enough to start banging my ARM up with it. 08:28:44 That's what I need anyway, more projects :S 08:28:51 xristos: second, you don't have memory constrained target most of the time. 08:28:58 you have an arm based linux device? 08:28:59 sure 08:29:05 xristos: and when you do have, usually you don't use Forth. 08:29:08 I440r: Yes, I do actually. 08:29:11 cool :) 08:29:12 what do you use 08:29:28 i have a nintendo DS here that i intend to eventually put isforth on 08:29:31 xristos: you use Linux, and it isn't written in Forth. ;) 08:29:47 ASau, i wish it were 08:29:48 Linux in under 1k ? 08:29:59 my emerge -uD world would take 20 seconds instead of 4 or 5 hours sometimes 08:30:08 I440r: One of the nifty zaurus c3200. 08:30:17 xristos: how much accessible RAM do you have there in _reality_? 08:30:24 500 bytes max 08:30:30 cool :) 08:31:09 ARM THUMB has 16-bit instructions, right? 08:31:25 yes but the logic behind thumb is flawed 08:31:26 --- quit: schme ("Lost terminal") 08:31:47 Thus you have 250 words for you "Forth". 08:31:54 they created thumb to be more space efficient than arm but the thumb instruction set is so gimped that you end up with larger executables than if you just used ARM and FORTH 08:32:08 --- join: kar8nga_ (n=kar8nga@e-17.vc-graz.ac.at) joined #forth 08:32:19 i.e. write a full 32 bit arm forth and it your code will be more efficient than the equiv THUMB based code 08:32:42 Anyway, you can't do much within 500 instructions+data memory. 08:32:56 You better reduce Linux part footprint. 08:32:58 i WAS going to write a call threaded arm forth with an optimizer just to prove i could do it heh 08:33:09 --- quit: kar8nga (Nick collision from services.) 08:33:36 --- nick: kar8nga_ -> kar8nga 08:33:40 but to do that i would need an arm assembler written in forth for isforth and so far the ONLY assembler ive ever been able to write is my 8051 assembler 08:34:02 When you win at least 4 K cells, it becomes more useful. 08:34:27 I doubt you ever really need to write assembler for being able to implement Forth. 08:34:38 --- join: schme (n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se) joined #forth 08:34:42 yes you do. 08:34:46 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 08:34:54 isforth is incomplete because it cannot compile its own sources 08:35:01 Why? 08:35:13 any forth compiler that cannot metacompile itself is incomplete 08:35:15 You can go with combined Forth-specific instructions for that. 08:35:21 any forth compiler written in C is not forth 08:35:44 isforth needs an x86 assembler so i can metacompile my own kernel but i cannot write that assembler 08:36:06 There's absolutely no need to do that assembler. 08:36:19 oh? how do you expect isforth to assemble its kernel? 08:36:27 I omitted that part when worked on 8086 Forth. 08:36:55 Use your own Forth-specific instructions and implement them straight in machine code. 08:37:11 asau your nuts 08:37:24 im not hand encoding every single opcode i want to support 08:37:29 --- join: aguaithefreak (n=aguai@122-116-183-8.HINET-IP.hinet.net) joined #forth 08:37:36 theres huge chunks of my extensions that i want to recode in assembler 08:37:38 Don't support them. 08:37:51 huge chunks of the kernel that should be REMOVED from the kernel and put in extensions 08:38:07 not supporting == foot in self shoot 08:38:23 No. 08:38:26 isforth is a mere shaddow of what it COULD be 08:38:27 You're wrong. 08:38:35 Oh, please. 08:38:45 "Forth is a mere shadow of what it could be." 08:38:54 agreed 08:39:07 We've heard that long ago. 08:39:16 but we dont have huge mega corporations working on it the way we do have for java, c, etc etc 08:39:30 Python doesn't have either. 08:39:38 PERL doesn't have it either. 08:39:42 nope 08:39:42 ? 08:39:52 they have THOUSANDS of people working on them 08:39:57 Sure. 08:40:11 show me a single forth that has thousands of people working on or with them 08:40:18 Because they don't have corporations behind them, they rely on people. 08:40:40 And Forth people doesn't even attract other developers. 08:40:49 isforth is a one man show 08:41:19 with a few people along the way that have helped in varying degrees. not to put down their contribution but 99.9999999999999% of isforth was MY work 08:41:30 Isforth isn't attractive either. 08:41:48 no. it has flaws which im not able to address as i am not able to metacompile 08:42:49 im constrained within a box and much of what i want to do with isforth is OUTSIDE that box 08:43:04 In particular, it doesn't attract me because it is linux-only and GPLed. 08:43:17 its got a NON viral gpl license 08:43:26 go to www.isforth.com and click on the license link 08:43:33 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@218.13.55.81) joined #forth 08:43:40 Really? 08:43:43 YES 08:43:53 i removed the viral nature of the LGPL from isforth 08:43:56 --- quit: kar8nga () 08:44:11 any time you produce an executable with my compiler then part of YOUR executable will have been derived from MY soruces 08:44:17 THAT part of your executable is LGPL 08:44:29 the part derived from your sources may have ANY damned license you want 08:44:34 that has always been my license 08:45:05 Nice! 08:45:21 Then the other part stays: linux-only. :( 08:45:41 well actually, i have a nice DOS port of it hehe 08:45:56 unreleased 08:46:03 I don't work neither with DOS nor with Linux. 08:46:18 i fixed the 8051 assembler and disassemblers in the dos version and wrote an 8051 simulator 08:46:27 i need to port over those fixes and the sim to linux 08:46:34 what os do you use 08:47:10 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@218.13.55.81) joined #forth 08:47:18 At work, where I could use Forth and contribute anything back to Forth community, we use FreeBSD. 08:47:25 I use NetBSD myself. 08:47:37 there is a fbsd port of isforth but it is not maintained and seems to not work any more 08:48:05 if you think you can get it to work i can give you a download link 08:48:30 --- quit: gogonkt`` ("Reconnecting") 08:48:40 Well, if you give the link, I'll check, what if I can do anything with it. 08:49:10 www.isforth.com/isforth-fbsd.tar.gz 08:49:35 you should also get the linux version as it has some changes in the kernel 08:49:44 that would need to be ported over 08:50:14 that zip contains alot of .svn dirs in it bleh sorry 08:50:36 i just zipped it all up from where i was trying to get it to work 08:51:22 Do you mean 1.22b? 08:51:29 yes 08:51:38 Alright. 08:51:43 the fbsd version is based on an older version of the linux code 08:51:54 so it will need to be fixed and brought up to date 08:52:03 I'll try to check, if I can do anything useful with it. 08:53:22 i would like to see netbsd and openbsd ports too but thers no way im working on that lol 09:05:44 --- quit: nighty__ (Remote closed the connection) 09:42:34 --- join: Quartus` (n=Quartus`@207.245.250.60) joined #forth 09:44:29 --- quit: gogonkt`1 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 09:50:36 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@218.13.51.41) joined #forth 09:58:19 --- quit: crc ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") 10:07:14 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@218.13.52.207) joined #forth 10:07:36 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 10:17:40 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@e-79.vc-graz.ac.at) joined #forth 10:21:53 --- join: kar8nga_ (n=kar8nga@e-79.vc-graz.ac.at) joined #forth 10:26:24 --- quit: kar8nga_ (Client Quit) 10:27:06 --- join: kar8nga_ (n=kar8nga@e-79.vc-graz.ac.at) joined #forth 10:27:49 --- quit: kar8nga (Nick collision from services.) 10:27:53 --- nick: kar8nga_ -> kar8nga 10:35:17 --- quit: gogonkt`1 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 10:36:28 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@218.13.51.76) joined #forth 11:02:35 --- quit: gogonkt`1 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 11:04:07 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@218.13.51.192) joined #forth 11:10:50 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 11:18:22 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@218.13.55.173) joined #forth 11:23:40 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@218.13.52.120) joined #forth 11:25:23 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 11:26:35 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@61.7.144.97) joined #forth 11:28:33 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 11:31:53 --- join: workthrick (n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk) joined #forth 11:32:43 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 11:33:34 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 11:34:07 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@61.7.144.97) joined #forth 11:59:07 --- quit: gogonkt`1 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 12:00:45 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@218.13.52.120) joined #forth 12:16:26 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 12:19:59 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@218.13.54.131) joined #forth 13:01:33 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@218.13.51.12) joined #forth 13:04:18 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 13:12:08 Which is more efficient, generally — using an extra stack cell or performing a swap? 13:12:21 Or rather, which is preferable? 13:12:46 theres not that much in it :P 13:13:11 Indeed 13:13:17 But a swap can't be very expensive either 13:13:27 It all _depends_. 13:13:49 So there's no general rule of thumb? 13:13:52 No. 13:13:57 OK, thanks. :) 13:37:48 --- join: kar8nga2 (n=kar8nga@a-83.vc-graz.ac.at) joined #forth 13:38:22 --- quit: kar8nga (Nick collision from services.) 13:38:26 --- nick: kar8nga2 -> kar8nga 13:44:03 --- quit: gogonkt`1 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 13:48:34 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@218.13.51.157) joined #forth 13:53:41 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@218.13.52.234) joined #forth 13:56:45 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 14:31:00 --- join: mykespb (n=chatzill@89.163.42.89) joined #forth 14:32:20 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@218.13.51.2) joined #forth 14:33:18 --- quit: gogonkt`1 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 15:20:15 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 15:22:22 --- join: tathi (n=josh@dsl-216-227-91-166.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 15:22:22 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 15:23:01 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@218.13.56.176) joined #forth 15:36:29 --- quit: qFox ("Time for cookies!") 15:36:55 --- quit: kar8nga (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:41:38 --- quit: ASau (Remote closed the connection) 15:41:57 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@218.13.51.58) joined #forth 15:42:02 --- join: ASau (n=user@193.138.70.52) joined #forth 15:49:58 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 15:52:12 --- quit: gogonkt`1 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 15:52:48 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@218.13.54.148) joined #forth 15:53:41 --- quit: mykespb (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:58:54 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@218.13.58.4) joined #forth 16:07:33 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 16:13:54 --- quit: gogonkt`1 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 16:20:05 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@218.13.62.44) joined #forth 16:51:35 --- join: Tell360 (i=76570347@119.101.229.232) joined #forth 16:56:13 --- part: Tell360 left #forth 17:10:42 --- quit: nxt (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:36:11 --- quit: Quartus` ("used jmIrc") 17:45:43 hi all 17:48:03 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@59.38.224.142) joined #forth 17:52:58 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 18:22:11 --- join: nxt (n=nxt@77.207.25.109) joined #forth 18:25:23 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 18:44:09 --- quit: gogonkt`1 (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:44:19 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@218.13.60.151) joined #forth 18:59:15 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@116.5.48.227) joined #forth 19:00:58 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 19:13:50 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@59.38.231.103) joined #forth 19:21:55 --- quit: gogonkt`1 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 19:45:56 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@59.38.234.242) joined #forth 19:48:00 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 20:06:15 --- quit: gogonkt`1 (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:06:16 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@59.38.234.242) joined #forth 20:14:23 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 20:17:23 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@218.13.56.48) joined #forth 20:28:05 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 20:42:45 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@116.5.48.236) joined #forth 20:56:21 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@59.38.231.166) joined #forth 20:56:57 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 21:10:47 --- quit: gogonkt`1 (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:12:19 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@121.9.35.32) joined #forth 21:44:09 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@218.13.58.7) joined #forth 21:46:02 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 21:52:56 --- quit: gogonkt`1 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 21:53:41 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:55:01 --- join: probonono (n=User@unaffiliated/probonono) joined #forth 21:56:50 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@59.38.200.46) joined #forth 22:17:04 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@61.7.144.97) joined #forth 22:23:34 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@218.13.45.16) joined #forth 22:26:48 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 23:24:35 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@218.13.61.52) joined #forth 23:27:33 --- quit: gogonkt`1 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 23:38:13 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@59.39.13.166) joined #forth 23:38:35 --- quit: schme ("leaving") 23:39:27 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:48:04 --- join: schme (n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se) joined #forth 23:48:44 --- quit: xristos (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/09.02.14