00:00:00 --- log: started forth/08.11.03 00:14:49 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 00:16:54 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@61.7.144.97) joined #forth 00:22:24 --- quit: mathrick (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:22:33 --- join: mathrick (n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk) joined #forth 00:59:47 --- quit: mathrick (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 01:09:57 --- quit: xjrn (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:17:58 --- join: mathrick (n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk) joined #forth 01:22:49 --- join: xjrn (n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 01:23:28 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-4617e78985024b9b) joined #forth 01:43:55 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 01:57:04 --- join: ramkrsna (n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna) joined #forth 03:27:24 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-02a0b9584eff219b) joined #forth 03:44:09 --- nick: aguai_ -> aguai 03:47:23 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 04:15:01 --- join: jewel (n=jewel@dsl-242-184-103.telkomadsl.co.za) joined #forth 04:16:59 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.169.182.169) joined #forth 04:17:39 --- quit: jewel (Remote closed the connection) 04:18:13 --- join: jewel (n=jewel@dsl-242-184-103.telkomadsl.co.za) joined #forth 04:31:51 hi 04:35:40 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 04:50:58 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-d621b028e81a122f) joined #forth 06:16:13 --- quit: jewel (No route to host) 06:22:25 --- join: _mathrick (n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk) joined #forth 06:24:36 --- quit: mathrick (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:10:01 --- quit: Quartus (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:11:42 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE001b115d994a-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 07:11:42 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o Quartus 07:27:39 --- quit: qFox ("Time for cookies!") 07:31:00 --- join: qFox (i=C00K13S@145.97.222.132) joined #forth 07:34:28 --- quit: qFox (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:34:28 --- quit: Quartus (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:35:11 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE001b115d994a-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 07:35:11 --- join: qFox (i=C00K13S@145.97.222.132) joined #forth 07:35:11 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o Quartus 07:56:34 --- quit: _mathrick (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:07:14 --- quit: ramkrsna (Remote closed the connection) 08:18:31 --- join: _mathrick (n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk) joined #forth 08:24:21 --- nick: _mathrick -> mathrick 08:56:18 --- join: neceve (n=ncv@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 09:12:16 --- join: jewel (n=jewel@dsl-242-184-103.telkomadsl.co.za) joined #forth 09:24:35 --- join: GoNoGo (n=GoNoGo@cro34-3-82-236-93-215.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 10:15:11 --- join: crc (i=d8012b82@pdpc/supporter/active/crc) joined #forth 10:15:11 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 10:52:03 --- quit: GoNoGo ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]") 11:51:12 --- join: tgunr (n=davec@70-41-216-152.cust.wildblue.net) joined #forth 12:05:49 --- quit: jewel (Connection timed out) 12:19:30 --- join: jewel (n=jewel@dsl-242-172-01.telkomadsl.co.za) joined #forth 12:21:23 --- join: I440r (n=mark4@wsip-68-14-227-113.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #forth 12:21:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 12:21:39 anyone here know anything about how gnu make follows symlinks when you do a make -C ? 12:22:42 it looks to me like instead of just following the symlink it extracts the target path from the symlink and cd's into that. this means taht ../ of the target is NOT the directory it was in before it "followed" the symlink 12:29:58 that has nothing to do with make, but with how symlinks work 12:30:13 or, how chdir() works 12:31:05 your current working dir is just that: a dir. it isn't a pathname. 12:31:40 make -C ../... is really bad behaviour, btw ;-P 12:46:45 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 12:54:44 --- join: forther (n=forther@207.47.34.100.static.nextweb.net) joined #forth 13:03:42 I440r: afaik pretty much everything except interractive shells goes to the parent directory on ../ 13:04:06 the real parent directory, not the one with the symlink in it 13:04:52 one shell I used (fish I think) resolved symlinks on cd so this problem didn't exist 13:07:11 JasonWoof, well if the make util looks at the symbolic link and says "well it points over there" and then dos a "cd over there" instead of a "cd symlink" then ../ is NOT the directory containing the symlink 13:07:21 but is the parent directory of the TARGET of the symlink 13:07:25 BAD MOJO! 13:08:10 solution is to never use make -C but to cd xxxxxx && make 13:08:17 --- quit: madgarden_ (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:08:17 --- quit: aspect (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:08:17 --- quit: gnomon (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:08:21 --- join: aspect (i=aspect@burns.dreamhost.com) joined #forth 13:08:29 --- join: gnomon (n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 13:08:37 --- join: madgarden_ (n=madgarde@CPE001d7e527f89-CM00159a65a870.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 13:11:32 ../ always references the parent directory 13:12:03 the only exception is some shells, who shorten $PWD to the last / 13:13:25 afaik "make -C foo" and "cd ff && make" do exactly the same thing 13:14:57 if i cd foo and foo is a symlink 13:15:06 then cd .. takes me to the directory containing the symlink 13:15:14 NOT to the parent directory of the target of the symlink 13:15:31 make -C does a cd "/target/of/the/symlink" as far as i can tell 13:15:45 so .. from THERE is not the directory containing the symlink 13:16:28 if i ln -s /usr/src/linux linux from within my home dir and cd linux and then cd .. im NOT in /usr/src 13:16:30 im in ~ 13:33:23 --- quit: crc ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") 14:04:27 --- quit: jewel (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 14:13:16 im wrong wtf 14:13:44 cd some-symlink and then cd .. then i DO get to the parent of the symlink 14:14:04 i mean the parent dir of the target of the symlink 14:23:17 play on fake stockmarket: http://chartgame.com/play.cgi 14:23:32 i would've made 1k profit in 20 days! 14:23:34 :p 14:38:03 --- quit: qFox ("Time for cookies!") 14:59:34 --- quit: neceve (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:36:12 --- quit: forther ("Leaving") 15:48:23 --- quit: tgunr (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:15:17 cool, factor is now 4 times faster than gforth on the spectral-norm floating point benchmark 16:16:07 by virtue of gforth slowing down, or factor speeding up? 16:16:24 the latter i think 16:16:34 :) 16:18:30 more than 5 times faster on nsieve-bits 16:21:37 after the next round of compiler improvements it will be time to add factor to the language shootout 16:23:07 We're going to have to rename you "Optimizo". 16:23:20 nah. gforth is just an interpreter after all 16:24:11 Still, I'm sure factor is improving vs. its old self, too. 16:25:10 yeah, i just rewrote the code generator 16:41:33 cd -L works in certain shells because the shell itself keeps track of the pathnames used to get to the dir. make (and pretty much anything else) doesn't. 16:42:23 yea. cd symlink and then ls .. does not give u the dir containing the link 16:42:32 indeed 16:43:01 you cannot traverse symlinks backwards, although certain shells pretend you can 16:43:07 ya lol 16:44:10 the original "problem" has a different solution though: just do not run make on anything that's not in your subtree, and you will be _much_ happier 16:44:51 if you need some sibling built before you, have your parent sort that out :-) 17:21:13 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:37:58 --- quit: lasts (Remote closed the connection) 17:53:47 or better yet.... nver do #include "../../whatever.h" 18:11:30 --- quit: gnomon (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 18:11:48 --- join: gnomon (n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 18:15:26 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@210.188.173.245) joined #forth 18:33:38 --- join: sunwukong (n=salvi@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp) joined #forth 18:50:25 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 18:50:47 --- join: mark4 (n=mark4@wsip-68-14-227-113.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #forth 18:50:49 why not? that has a well-defined meaning 18:50:53 oh, he left 18:51:02 who left? 19:43:00 --- nick: madgarden_ -> madgarden 20:19:16 mark4: it happened before you were there, youngster 21:03:14 segher: we were helping I440r learn about .. in linux directories 21:03:57 and how that works with symlinks 21:04:36 I explained it all to him, then he ignored me and stated the problem again 21:04:49 then I explained it another way, and went on with my life. 21:05:06 I come back again to see that he again ignored me, and just tinkered with it enough to figure out what was going on 21:05:34 guess I need to strengthen my resolve to not bother responding to him 21:24:25 --- join: foxLapto1 (i=flash@221.220.161.237) joined #forth 21:32:08 jasonwoof: heh 21:32:56 what's up guys? any interesting projects? 21:36:13 right now? project bedtime 21:36:18 oy 21:36:32 maybe I'll have to do something interesting myself 21:36:55 but i'm vaguely off-and-on still working on my VM -- i decided to make it a C target as well, since it's so easy to do 21:37:13 target? 21:37:19 target 21:37:29 like, make GCC output code for the VM 21:37:35 ahh 21:37:57 interesting 21:38:06 don't think I ever considered doing that 21:38:24 i decided to add a framepointer (with offset addressing, just like the user pointer) so making it a C target comes natural then 21:38:58 i mean, GCC doesn't know how to handle a two-stack machine, but it knows about stack frames 21:39:00 oh, so it's not a stack machine? 21:39:05 it is 21:39:22 but you can take the address of something on the stack 21:40:23 you update this framepointer automatically on call/return ? 21:40:26 --- quit: foxLaptop (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)) 21:40:34 nah, in the prologue/epilogue 21:40:49 ok 21:40:53 so it's optional 21:40:57 as far as the VM is concerned, it is equivalent to the UP 21:41:01 yah 21:41:17 i think i'll use it for Forth locals as well 21:41:24 so it's basically an address register 21:41:28 not that i ever use locals myself, but heh 21:41:30 yeah 21:41:39 one that has insns with offset addressing 21:41:42 that's fun 21:41:50 fovium has an address register. it's nice 21:42:03 but does it do offset addressing? 21:42:05 I can't decide exactly how to use it, and occatially make bugs as a result, but it's definitely nice 21:42:32 is fovium some hardware thing? 21:42:36 no, it's for sweeping through memory 21:42:43 does fetch and increment type stuff 21:42:54 right, an auto-increment reg, like A and B on most Forth machine 21:42:55 no, just a little VM I dreamed/coded up with tathi 21:43:01 k 21:43:17 very very nice for memory moves and compairs 21:43:47 my VM has some things in common with modern forth machines, but it is designed specifically for running it on some other host machine 21:43:55 i have an insn for moves :-) 21:43:59 I was occationally tempted to use it in high-level code, but after a while I found that that was usually a mistake 21:44:09 right 21:44:13 only in certain kernels 21:44:26 yeah, a move instruction might be good 21:44:51 I was thinking that if I really went somewhere with this project, it'd be cool to have a JIT 21:44:53 i implemented a move primitive in my OF -- that was one of the only two optimisations i did to it 21:45:08 and then it was plenty fast 21:45:26 I might do that if I ever need it. 21:45:33 right now I'm pretty good at using things where they are 21:45:46 the other opt was wordlist search caching -- it uses stupid linked lists, and compiles itself on the run (straight from flash memory :-) ) 21:45:50 and the system is so small, that I can move just about everything so quick you can't tell 21:46:19 yeah, I never do more than one dictionary lookup in a row 21:46:21 yeah, but in OF, i need to copy OS kernel around, and stuff like that 21:46:40 it was noticeable slow (in the cycle-exact simulator, that is) 21:46:55 currently my dictionary is just a bunch of arrays. the names one is a list of pointers to counted strings 21:47:11 i don't have a dictionary yet :-) 21:47:21 can't decide on how to do it best 21:47:27 I put in quite a lot of time into mine, not recently though 21:47:35 don't do it best 21:47:44 --- join: foxLaptop (i=flash@222.131.179.245) joined #forth 21:47:45 do it simply, then improve it later when you know what it should be like 21:48:00 there are many dimensions to "best". simple is one 21:48:06 :) 21:48:20 and i have thought about the problem a lot 21:48:47 i need to handle many dictionaries, and there are many names that occur in a lot of them 21:48:50 my little OS (fronds) for the VM (fovium) is a re-write of my previous forth-like system 21:49:20 rewriting is nice because you can do things differently that ran to deep to change in the old system 21:49:26 but of course it takes a lot of time 21:49:44 at some point I'll probably make my dictionary structure more flexible 21:49:57 i dunno, i never found anything too deep to change. i'm pretty good at that stuff ;-) 21:50:15 i like a rewrite now and then though, if only because you get to give a totally new feel to it 21:50:17 oh, well, I should mention that my development was self-hosted 21:50:26 so I couldn't break the system for a while, while I rearranged stuff 21:50:34 it had to always work 21:50:39 don't self-host, eh 21:50:46 host in a previous version 21:50:50 well, I made a nice IDE 21:51:00 IDEs are death-traps 21:51:12 the main point of the project was to make programming easier and more fun 21:51:13 which it did 21:51:19 cool :-) 21:51:31 anyway, like i said, i should work on project bedtime now 21:51:33 cya 21:51:42 ok, ttyl 22:01:43 --- quit: foxLapto1 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:05:21 --- join: ramkrsna (n=ramkrsna@nat/redhat-in/x-6b5cdfb9967c5176) joined #forth 22:14:21 --- quit: Quartus` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:40:32 --- quit: xjrn (Nick collision from services.) 22:40:37 --- join: foxLapto1 (i=flash@123.113.220.183) joined #forth 22:41:43 --- join: qFox (i=C00K13S@132pc222.sshunet.nl) joined #forth 22:42:57 --- join: xjrn (n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:50:31 --- quit: foxLaptop (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:54:20 --- quit: xjrn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:09:06 --- join: gogonkt`1 (n=info@125.34.32.13) joined #forth 23:12:13 --- quit: gogonkt`` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 23:20:50 --- quit: gogonkt`1 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 23:28:16 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 23:28:17 --- quit: foxLapto1 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:30:16 --- join: gogonkt`` (n=info@124.64.19.41) joined #forth 23:32:39 --- join: foxLaptop (i=flash@123.113.220.183) joined #forth 23:38:02 --- join: xjrn (n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 23:40:45 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@61.7.144.97) joined #forth 23:45:49 --- join: foxLapto1 (i=flash@221.220.170.164) joined #forth 23:58:55 --- quit: foxLaptop (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/08.11.03