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09:12:49 <snowrichard> hi
09:12:51 <gogonkt> lo
09:12:52 <snowrichard> got some sleep
09:13:10 <snowrichard> was up for a long time building the new gentoo system 
09:15:22 <snowrichard> I'm recording some music off the net now
09:19:45 <snowrichard> getting coffee
09:30:31 <snowrichard> got some chicken nuggets
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09:49:08 <gogonkt> still building?
10:00:04 <snowrichard> no its all done
10:01:42 <snowrichard> I need another coffee and my meds thought
10:01:44 <snowrichard> I need another coffee and my meds though
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10:19:19 <snowrichard> got a phone call
10:21:09 <snowrichard> hi qFox 
10:21:20 <snowrichard> quartus
10:44:41 <qFox> hello
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11:06:35 <gogonkt> snowrichard: http://www.ladyada.net/make/digg/
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11:22:55 <Quartus`> hi.
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11:36:35 <gogonkt> :)
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20:04:29 <LOOP-HOG> anybody up for a chat
20:16:57 <LOOP-HOG> anybody up for a chat?
20:17:32 <kspaans> LOOP-HOG: What's goin' down?
20:20:31 <LOOP-HOG> I watched the x-prize's Lunar Lander Challenge on internet video
20:20:33 <LOOP-HOG> it sucked
20:20:48 <LOOP-HOG> do you know what that is?
20:21:06 <kspaans> Yep. Not particularly interested though.
20:21:12 <LOOP-HOG> I don't blame you
20:21:21 <LOOP-HOG> I think that the game was crooked
20:21:25 <kspaans> Too busy playing with C++ bitfields and unformatted i/o. :)
20:22:31 <LOOP-HOG> what are you doing in particular, what is this for?
20:22:58 <kspaans> LOOP-HOG: Just an assignment for school. "Data Abstraction and Design" an OOP course.
20:23:17 <kspaans> In particular? Reading UTF8-encoded chars from a file.
20:23:36 <LOOP-HOG> ok
20:23:40 <LOOP-HOG> do you ever use Forth?
20:24:16 <LOOP-HOG> not in school I don't imagine
20:29:26 <kspaans> LOOP-HOG: Nope, I learned Scheme in school. I'd like learn Forth, then write a forth interperter one day.
20:29:42 <kspaans> interperter/compiler, I haven't figured out which yet.
20:30:03 <kspaans> Possibly in Scheme. ;-)
20:35:44 <LOOP-HOG> Forth is both an interpreter and a compiler.  YOu can't separate them out in Forth
20:37:11 <kspaans> I think I understand that much. But if you're writing "one", isn't it possible to do one that doesn't actually output any machine code?
20:37:29 <kspaans> hmm, perhaps that's a dumb way to define a "compiler".
20:37:45 <kspaans> Either way, I need to learn Forth first. :)
20:38:55 <LOOP-HOG> learn forth first
20:39:30 <LOOP-HOG> check out the books  starting forth and thinking forth
20:39:39 <LOOP-HOG> theyare online
20:39:57 <kspaans> Oh, score!
20:40:19 <kspaans> I've got an old book, I forget what's it called, it's from byte magazine, something from the 80's about threaded interpretive languages.
20:40:45 <LOOP-HOG> it might have forth info in it
20:40:51 <kspaans> And I've asked this here before (and saved that convo), but I'm going to ask again: LOOP-HOG What would you suggest for a Forth implementation to use?
20:41:01 <LOOP-HOG> swiftforth
20:41:12 <kspaans> Never heard of it!
20:41:22 <LOOP-HOG> if for nothing else the documentation
20:41:27 <kspaans> I was considering either gnuforth, or... that one that hcsw.org wrote...
20:41:27 <LOOP-HOG> just  a min
20:41:31 <kspaans> Sure.
20:41:51 <kspaans> Oh, windows.
20:41:55 <kspaans> I'm a *nix user. :P
20:42:03 <LOOP-HOG> just a min
20:42:27 <LOOP-HOG> have you visited  forth.com
20:42:49 <LOOP-HOG> it is run by the second person to ever learn forth, after Chuck Moore who invented it, Elizabeth Rather
20:42:55 <LOOP-HOG> they are still in business
20:42:58 <kspaans> Cool!
20:43:06 <LOOP-HOG> they have alot of experience with Forth naturally
20:43:13 <kspaans> Is Chuck still trying to create and sell Forth-based "hardware" ?
20:43:16 <LOOP-HOG> there is even a history of Forth to read there
20:43:18 <LOOP-HOG> yes
20:43:22 <LOOP-HOG> he is getting very close
20:43:24 <kspaans> I may or may not have read that.
20:43:30 <LOOP-HOG> intellasys.net
20:43:34 <kspaans> I've read a fair bit about Forth online.
20:44:07 <LOOP-HOG> gforth if you use linux I guess, but I'm a windoz user
20:45:18 <LOOP-HOG> comp.lang.forth
20:45:24 <kspaans> Heh, a forth that can compile to Java bytecode, PORTABLE!
20:45:48 <LOOP-HOG> there have been a few of those
20:45:59 <LOOP-HOG> not really the area that Forth is used for
20:46:07 <LOOP-HOG> Forth is usually used for embedded aps
20:46:12 <LOOP-HOG> there is some use in desktop aps
20:46:40 <LOOP-HOG> one thing about learning Forth is using the stack
20:46:45 <LOOP-HOG> that is one of the most tricky things
20:46:54 <LOOP-HOG> another is learning to factor
20:47:15 <kspaans> Factor? As in refactor code?
20:47:49 <kspaans> I'm not much into embedded stuff, but I like the idea that Forth is kind of like an OS in itself. I really like OSes.
20:48:41 <LOOP-HOG> yes refactor code
20:48:46 <LOOP-HOG> it is
20:48:51 <LOOP-HOG> it was once it's own OS
20:49:11 <LOOP-HOG> there have been some impressive projects using Forth OS
20:49:31 <LOOP-HOG> like multiuser systems where a computer that is considered weak today would be used by hundreds of users
20:49:36 <LOOP-HOG> just one computer
20:49:40 <LOOP-HOG> that was when they were expense
20:49:42 <LOOP-HOG> expensive
20:49:47 <LOOP-HOG> you don't really need to do that nowadays
20:49:54 <LOOP-HOG> computers are cheap
20:50:51 <kspaans> Makes sense.
20:52:42 <LOOP-HOG> I might go to ForthDay in the San Jose area next month
20:52:48 <LOOP-HOG> then I can meet Chuck for the first time
20:53:02 <LOOP-HOG> and have him autograph my copy of Starting Forth
20:53:06 <LOOP-HOG> :)
20:54:07 <kspaans> Cool!
20:54:54 <LOOP-HOG> it's something that ive wanted to do for several years now
20:55:52 <LOOP-HOG> I can meet Jeff Fox too.  I wonder who else whill be there
20:55:58 <LOOP-HOG> John Rible?
20:56:05 <LOOP-HOG> C.H. Ting?
20:56:31 <LOOP-HOG> do you know the way to San Jose?
20:57:40 <kspaans> I've only been outside of Canuckistan 3 times in my life. :)
20:57:51 <kspaans> Granted, I'm only 19.
21:07:15 <kspaans> That said, how hard can it be to buy a plane ticket to San Jose?
21:15:01 <LOOP-HOG> where is Canuckistan?
21:15:09 <LOOP-HOG> I do know a little geography
21:15:18 <LOOP-HOG> you seem to speak english well, or atleast to write it well
21:17:14 <kspaans> Hehe, Canada. Canuckistan is just a silly name I use for Canada, since we _do_ have a fair bit of oil.
21:17:30 <TreyB> But you have to wring it out of sand pits.
21:17:42 <kspaans> This is true.
21:18:15 <LOOP-HOG> oh
21:18:29 <LOOP-HOG> I feel sorry for Alberta because of all of the polution due to the extraction of the tar sands
21:19:35 <TreyB> I think the US imports more oil from Canada than any other country.
21:20:20 <kspaans> Liekly.
21:20:32 <kspaans> I just think it's sad that we don't refine more of it here.
21:20:52 <kspaans> Because we buy so much non-crude oil back form the US at an inflated price. :(
21:21:02 <kspaans> Kind of like the whole softwood lumber thing.
21:21:11 <kspaans> But then again, I have a biased point of view of that. :)
21:21:20 <LOOP-HOG> well, I understand where you are coming from
21:21:40 <TreyB> If someone thought they could make money off of refining the crude up there, they probably would.
21:21:58 <kspaans> It's my naive understanding of it all, so far at least.
21:22:19 <TreyB> The refining infrastructure costs a fortune, and takes a while to pay back.
21:23:04 * TreyB lives in the Houston area, where we refine 1/4 of the US's petro chemicals.
21:23:22 <kspaans> One of my "school chums" is from the Houston area!
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21:24:10 <LOOP-HOG> TreyB, what do you think of the economy of the Huston area>
21:24:23 <LOOP-HOG> I'll say that the economy of Oregon isn't that great
21:25:22 <TreyB> We didn't have the insane rise in housing prices here, and so the slump hasn't hurt as much.
21:25:33 <kspaans> Rises?
21:25:41 <LOOP-HOG> oh
21:25:44 <LOOP-HOG> jobs?
21:26:01 <kspaans> Shouldn't  the bubble have completely sunk housing prices?
21:26:12 <LOOP-HOG> I've played with the idea of moving to Huston b4
21:26:34 <TreyB> We didn't have the big bubble, kspaans, so we escaped most of the sudden deflation.
21:26:43 <kspaans> Oh, neat.
21:27:34 <TreyB> And we've got quite a diverse economy these days, not just energy but biotech and a huge port.
21:27:59 <LOOP-HOG> what do you do TreyB?
21:28:23 <TreyB> Software engineer, these days working on over-the-air diagnostics for cell phones.
21:28:55 <TreyB> I work for a company out in Moutain View, CA from my upstairs office.
21:29:14 <LOOP-HOG> do you Forth at all?
21:29:55 <TreyB> The version of our software that GM's on Monday has a pForth-derived interpreter embedded in it.
21:30:06 * kspaans the Computational Mathematics undergrad!
21:30:24 <LOOP-HOG> GM's ??
21:30:45 <TreyB> "Gold Master", basically, a QA certified release.
21:30:52 <LOOP-HOG> oh
21:30:59 <LOOP-HOG> congrats
21:31:49 <TreyB> Thanks.
21:32:29 <TreyB> I will shortly have perhaps the most widely distributed Forth environment on the planet, but no one will know about it :-)
21:32:44 <LOOP-HOG> this goes into cellphones?
21:32:47 <TreyB> Yes.
21:33:41 <LOOP-HOG> a cellphone must be a very complex peice of hardware and software, if forth can be imbedded in it as just one of it's softwares
21:34:06 <LOOP-HOG> cellphones have an OS then
21:34:19 <snowrichard> my razor runs java apps
21:35:12 <LOOP-HOG> my old cell phone was too slow to run java games fast, but I had a few of those
21:35:17 <LOOP-HOG> the games were really slow
21:35:38 <kspaans> I like how my PowerBook has openfirmware, which is basically just a forth environment. :D
21:35:39 <TreyB> The Forth interpreter exists as part of a library we provide to the handset OEMs.  They submit metrics (bits of phone status) to our library, and we decide which ones to keep and which to ignore based on a profile sent to the device.
21:36:29 <TreyB> The new version uses Forth to do smarter filtering of metrics on the device.
21:37:49 <LOOP-HOG> so who says that Forth is no longer in use?
21:38:04 <TreyB> Not I :-)
21:38:19 <LOOP-HOG> Trey, do you have an opinion on the new Forth chip
21:38:31 <TreyB> The SEAForth stuff?
21:38:35 <LOOP-HOG> yeah
21:39:08 <TreyB> Pretty damned spiffy, but not something everyone will use.
21:39:57 <LOOP-HOG> yeah
21:40:08 <TreyB> It sure makes you change the way you think about code.
21:40:14 <LOOP-HOG> I might go to Forthday.  They are supposed to talk about SeaForth there
21:40:26 <LOOP-HOG> is that something that might be used in a cellphone?
21:40:27 <LOOP-HOG> or no?
21:40:27 <TreyB> I managed to go a couple of years ago.
21:40:34 <LOOP-HOG> how was it?
21:40:44 <TreyB> Interesting.
21:40:49 <LOOP-HOG> do you know the way to San Jose?
21:41:05 <TreyB> Indeed :-)
21:41:23 <LOOP-HOG> Chuck should be there.  Jeff Fox might be there
21:41:36 <TreyB> When does it happen this year?
21:41:45 <LOOP-HOG> 15th
21:41:52 <TreyB> Nov?  *sigh*
21:42:03 <LOOP-HOG> :(
21:42:11 <LOOP-HOG> you can't make it?
21:42:16 * TreyB flys back from Shenzhen on the 15th.
21:42:56 <TreyB> I have to go visit a couple of companies integrating our stuff.  One in Taipei and the other in Shenzhen (north of Hong Kong).
21:43:04 <LOOP-HOG> they make all of the cellphones in China
21:43:07 <TreyB> I leave on the 3rd.
21:43:25 <LOOP-HOG> it's great that you are doing Forth stuff though
21:43:26 <TreyB> They make a metric f*ckload of them there, for sure :-)
21:44:02 <TreyB> Yeah, I basically got hired to integrate the forth interpreter.
21:44:38 <kspaans> TreyB: Neat! Do you have forth stuff on your resume?
21:45:18 <TreyB> Not really.  I've done forth as a part-time hobby for most of my carreer, though.
21:45:56 <TreyB> (I had all the forth books before I got hired)
21:47:26 <LOOP-HOG> cool
21:47:59 <TreyB> Pretty much.  Getting hired to do what you do for fun doesn't suck ;-)
21:48:02 <LOOP-HOG> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gsUuZMpXHk
21:48:34 <LOOP-HOG> :D
21:50:31 <TreyB> About the forth chip in cell phones: they could use it, but it would probably end up as an I/O control chip rather than for something else (like the radio).
21:50:47 <LOOP-HOG> that makes sense
21:51:08 <TreyB> But the wireless speaker sample project they did with the SEA24 looked interesting.
21:51:22 <LOOP-HOG> It might still be possiable to get a thumb drive if you can send them an email about an interesting experiemtn to do with the chip
21:51:27 <LOOP-HOG> thing is though, the pins are not exposed
21:51:28 <TreyB> And I think they did that with a pair of 24s.  A pair of the 40s might just do it.
21:51:52 <TreyB> I don't have the EE skills, just software.
21:52:18 <LOOP-HOG> to be a really kick butt forth programmer, be both a software and a hardware engineer
21:52:29 <TreyB> I've done drivers and such in previous lives, but never hardware.
21:52:46 <TreyB> Yeah, I have a ton of respect for the forth guys that do hardware bring-up.
21:53:15 <kspaans> TreyB: What's driver development like? I'm considering that kind of work. Anything low-level really.
21:53:35 <LOOP-HOG> if you like low level, why not learn forth?
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21:54:13 <LOOP-HOG> what does forther use forth for?
21:54:26 <TreyB> I did graphics drivers for BeOS (worked for Be for 5 years), plus graphics drivers and low-level stuff for the abandoned PalmOS 6 (also about 5 years).
21:55:32 <TreyB> LOOP-HOG: did you mean that question for me?
21:55:47 <LOOP-HOG> there is a forther named forther
21:55:52 <TreyB> Ah.
21:56:39 <TreyB> kspaans: you really have to understand the language you work in and how it relates to its runtime environment.
21:58:35 <TreyB> kspaans: and you need to understand the hardware framework the device lives in (the various busses, the differences different CPUs make, etc.
21:59:00 <kspaans> LOOP-HOG: Why haven't I learned Forth yet? I have really poor time managment  skills and I should relly try and concentrate on school more so I don't fail anymore classes. :)
21:59:22 <kspaans> TreyB: OK, so you need to be able to read hardware schematics and that kind of thing?
21:59:23 <TreyB> Nothing really beats trying to bring a driver up, though.
21:59:28 <kspaans> :D
22:00:09 <TreyB> kspaans: depends on the hardware.  Graphics drivers, not so much.  BIOS level USB/FireWire/I2C busses, a bit.
22:00:53 <kspaans> BIOSes! Now those sound like a black art! Aren't they still programmed mostly in assembly, or something lower these days?
22:01:32 <TreyB> Actually, the SEAForth dev boards might make a decent place to play.
22:02:11 <TreyB> I think they do them mostly in C with very close attention paid to the assembly/C interface.
22:02:19 <kspaans> Oh, neat.
22:02:50 <TreyB> In the old days they did them in assembly, but today's PC BIOS takes 512K or so.
22:02:51 <kspaans> Alas, I should go home and go to bed, have to wake up in about 5 hours to go to Toronto for the Ontario Linux Fest. :)
22:03:01 <TreyB> Have fun tomorrow!
22:03:32 <TreyB> Enjoy your youth.  You'll get old fast enough ;-)
22:03:32 <kspaans> Thanks! And thanks for the tips / nice to meet you.
22:03:44 <kspaans> Hahaha, that's for sure.
22:03:53 <LOOP-HOG> stay out of trouble!
22:03:56 <LOOP-HOG> :)
22:04:26 <TreyB> Find a decent Gyro place and have one for me.
22:04:37 <kspaans> Wow, funny you mention that.
22:04:42 <kspaans> there is a really good one near campus.
22:04:59 <kspaans> They give students a deal: two beef or lamb gyros for $6!
22:05:06 <kspaans> Anywhoo, night all.
22:05:06 * TreyB 's wife's family lives in Ontario.
22:05:19 <TreyB> G'night!
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