00:00:00 --- log: started forth/08.10.02
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00:26:16 <gogonkt``> Found MenuOS wrote in asm,Anybody wrote ForthOS ?
00:27:48 <ASau> http://forthos.org/
00:28:26 <ASau> Writing simple OS in Forth is easy.
00:28:44 <ASau> Writing anything more usable is very hard.
00:39:52 <gogonkt``> hoho
00:40:00 <gogonkt``> GUI?
00:42:40 <gogonkt``> seem another forth system :(
00:43:37 <ASau> Even w/o gui.
00:44:45 <gogonkt``> downloading iso
00:56:59 <gogonkt``> hoho,cool,booted in vmware :D
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04:18:29 <qFox> isnt forthos old? i remember looking it at a loooong time ago....
04:19:02 <slava> heh
04:19:11 <ASau> qFox: Andy posted on clf, that he's not going to maintain it.
04:19:38 <slava> a 'web browser' in factor: http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=50
04:19:47 <slava> its just wrapping apple's webkit library in a window.
04:19:48 <ASau> IIRC, the question was about maintaining domain name at all.
04:23:51 <qFox> ok, the discussion didnt reflect that here. but the name just sounded familiar :)
04:24:28 <qFox> whats clf?
04:29:24 <ASau> comp.lang.forth
04:54:53 <qFox> of course :)
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05:40:45 <gogonkt``> MenuOS look good,it wrote in asm, why no one wrote a GUI os in Forth?
05:41:21 <gogonkt``> Forth seem easier than asm.
05:52:24 <ASau> Asm is good only if it is spiced with much of anything more powerful.
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06:19:12 <gogonkt``> hoho
06:19:30 <slava> gogonkt``: because writing OSes is kind of pointless
06:20:11 <gogonkt``> we did民\
06:20:34 <gogonkt``> we didn't need more os, in fact.
06:21:39 <gogonkt``> got it
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09:00:38 <jonphilpott> hi all, im new to forth and i have a question regarding idioms... i'm writing a program that uses a binary tree, is it wrong or unidiomatic to use the dictionary to store the tree nodes?
09:00:57 <ASau`> It is plain wrong.
09:01:13 <jonphilpott> how so?
09:01:18 <ASau`> Though it is weird enough to make use in some cases.
09:01:44 <ASau`> How are you going to remove your "nodes"?
09:02:11 <ASau`> This isn't supported by the standard and many implementations follow tradition.
09:02:22 <jonphilpott> ok.
09:02:44 <slava> use a forth with an object system
09:02:52 <slava> then you can define a tree node data type.
09:03:02 <ASau`> Just to use tree node, you need object system?
09:03:04 <ASau`> How so?
09:03:45 <ASau`> struct cell% field left cell% field right end-struct tree-node%
09:03:59 <ASau`> No objects needed.
09:04:01 <slava> struct are a simple object system
09:04:11 <ASau`> They are not.
09:04:26 <ASau`> They are simple, Oberon-style records.
09:04:36 <slava> whatever. any facility for defining data types lets you implement trees without much hassle
09:08:42 <jonphilpott> i'm writing a cross assembler, i wanted to store the assembled opcodes in a tree sorted by the destination address, that way if the source code did something crazy like "org 0 ; .... org 10 .... org 4... " the assembled output will still sorted. 
09:09:20 <ASau`> What's wrong with traditional approach?
09:09:33 <jonphilpott> what is the traditional approach? :)
09:09:55 <ASau`> E.g. classic 68K postfix asm.
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09:10:24 <ASau`> ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth and so on.
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09:11:58 <ASau`> E.g. ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Tools/asm386.fth
09:14:39 <jonphilpott> if im reading this right, the assembled opcodes are appened onto the end a dictionary entry each time?
09:14:49 <ASau`> I don't see where you need trees, even if you write single-pass asm.
09:15:02 <ASau`> You can do it that way.
09:15:17 <jonphilpott> ok.
09:15:18 <ASau`> It is done so, since it coincides with hosted asm use.
09:16:02 <jonphilpott> i want to build a z80 assembler for a computer im building.
09:16:12 <jonphilpott> eventually i'd like to use that assembler to build forth for that computer.
09:16:21 <ASau`> Z80 is easy.
09:16:30 <ASau`> ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Archive/others/8080asm.arc
09:16:38 <ASau`> :p
09:16:51 <jonphilpott> where's the fun in that :) 
09:17:03 <ASau`> All you need is adding IX, IY and DJNZ support.
09:17:49 <ASau`> Other commands are as simple, as K580's.
09:18:51 <ASau`> You will have enough fun, trying to implement anything in
09:18:51 <ASau`> Forth, which is possibly _fast_ on K580.
09:19:27 <ASau`> I have no nostalgic feelings of that time.
09:19:29 <jonphilpott> K580>
09:19:31 <jonphilpott> ?
09:19:38 <ASau`> Except for unified text and video.
09:20:58 <ASau`> K580 series is what is called 8080, 8085, U880(A), Z-80(A) &c.
09:21:16 <jonphilpott> ah
09:21:32 <ASau`> My box used KP580BM80.
09:22:14 <ASau`> AFAIR, it is approximatly Z-80A.
09:23:06 <jonphilpott> ok.
09:23:58 <jonphilpott> in general if you're building datastructures like trees, etc, where /is/ the correct place to store them?
09:24:09 <slava> in the heap
09:24:45 <ASau`> Yes, in the heap.
09:25:34 <jonphilpott> great.
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22:46:17 <LOOP-HOG> hi
22:46:29 <gogonkt``> howdy
22:47:13 <LOOP-HOG> I'm watching a video on youtube of the SpaceX falcon launch
22:47:52 <LOOP-HOG> I'm jealous
22:50:53 <gogonkt``> reading CH. Ting's eforth site :)
22:52:18 <LOOP-HOG> are you facinated by the 40 core chip?
22:54:03 <gogonkt``> newbie <==
22:55:27 <LOOP-HOG> Chuck Moore who created Forth also created a 40 core Forth chip, that is to say, a microchip with 40 Forth microprocessor inside of it
22:55:34 <LOOP-HOG> http://www.intellasys.net
22:57:13 <gogonkt``> ...40 core!!?
22:57:41 <ASau> gogonkt``: why not?
22:58:11 <gogonkt``> how much?where can I got it?
22:58:17 <gogonkt``> cost
22:59:22 <ASau> I don't think it is of any use to you.
22:59:39 <gogonkt``> ...sure
23:00:12 <gogonkt``> I think so too
23:01:22 <LOOP-HOG> It's mostly for imbedded applications, like maybe a robot arm in a factory, or something like that
23:01:28 <ASau> gogonkt``: you should read clf, Forth community is more USENET-centric.
23:01:31 <LOOP-HOG> this won't be put into a desktop computer
23:02:05 <gogonkt``> I read it evey day
23:02:05 <LOOP-HOG> the cost would I presume a few dollars apeice, but only if you order like a million of them
23:02:36 <LOOP-HOG> if you are an electrical engineer and can prove that you are serious, then I suppose it is possiable to get a development kit
23:03:03 <LOOP-HOG> is it true that you can only order 1000 of them at a time or more?
23:03:25 <gogonkt``> ^o^
23:03:26 <LOOP-HOG> maybe somebody will order 1000 of them and sell them off individually, or make hobby kits out of them
23:03:26 <gogonkt``> hoho
23:04:35 <LOOP-HOG> I don't know what I would use it for except to play around with, such as try to get it to run an LCD screen and a touch pad interface or something
23:05:31 <LOOP-HOG> it just sounds really neat
23:06:13 <gogonkt``> run forth it arm soc is really more.in my side.
23:06:26 <gogonkt``> in arm+
23:06:57 <LOOP-HOG> ok
23:07:55 <gogonkt``> learn forth just for hobbist,not for job.
23:08:15 <ASau> I write prototypes in Forth sometimes.
23:08:56 <LOOP-HOG> I did a little bit of Forth last night, 
23:09:12 <ASau> Last night I did adaptive integration.
23:09:37 <ASau> One-dimensional for now though.
23:10:48 <gogonkt``> forth for robot project, with avr/arm.
23:12:06 <LOOP-HOG> I worked on my simple text editor and not taking program :^/
23:12:45 <gogonkt``> ha
23:14:14 <LOOP-HOG> ha
23:15:13 <gogonkt``> why not VIM?
23:15:46 <gogonkt``> I used VIM for any text editting.
23:20:44 <LOOP-HOG> because I like forth
23:21:20 <gogonkt``> VI.f ? You wrote that?
23:21:32 <LOOP-HOG> huh?
23:21:50 <LOOP-HOG> i did not write vi
23:22:15 <LOOP-HOG> I want to go to Forth Day on Nov 15th
23:22:20 <slava> hi fellas
23:22:22 <LOOP-HOG> hi
23:22:28 <gogonkt``> tried vi.f days ago.
23:22:36 <gogonkt``> I tried vi.f days ago.
23:22:51 <LOOP-HOG> we were talking about the 40 core chip, and then what we use Forth for
23:24:58 <gogonkt``> = =!
23:25:04 <gogonkt``> hoho
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23:26:13 <gogonkt``> can it became a PS3?
23:26:24 <LOOP-HOG> I don't know
23:26:43 <gogonkt``> or nds
23:26:50 <gogonkt``> :D
23:27:16 <gogonkt``> PS3's cpu only 8 core
23:27:21 <LOOP-HOG> maybe a DS
23:28:34 <LOOP-HOG> will there be an online chat or a message board for the Intellasys chips?
23:28:43 <LOOP-HOG> we could ask in there, just out of curiosity
23:30:30 <gogonkt``> curiosity is great
23:31:20 <LOOP-HOG> http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2005/12/vg_pocket_max_m.html
23:31:21 <gogonkt``> maybe us can run Open40core project
23:31:48 <LOOP-HOG> there is a $20 cheap handheld game machine.  I wonder if the 40 core chip could be used for one of these?
23:32:07 <LOOP-HOG> VG Pocket Max is like an NES
23:34:33 <gogonkt``> but Game is more important in a game machine project,no great game no one use the machine
23:35:25 <LOOP-HOG> true
23:35:34 <LOOP-HOG> I think that the software problem would kill this idea
23:36:05 <gogonkt``> yes
23:36:30 <LOOP-HOG> I first thought of this idea to create something like a VG Pocket Max excecpt with 3D graphics, but the problem would is that it's harder to create 3D games than 2D games
23:36:53 <LOOP-HOG> never mind that you don't have enough ram for textures with a $20 unit
23:37:13 <LOOP-HOG> but could it do it theoretically?
23:37:38 <gogonkt``> price not a big deal,if it's usefull
23:38:13 <LOOP-HOG> you can't compete with Nintendo and Sony, not really
23:38:21 <LOOP-HOG> they are just too popular
23:38:30 <LOOP-HOG> who would buy a no name brand game machine?
23:38:42 <LOOP-HOG> that is why I was thinking of making it super cheap
23:39:45 <LOOP-HOG> just playing around with ideas
23:40:08 <LOOP-HOG> I wonder if they have any design wins?
23:49:07 <gogonkt``> sound cool
23:49:22 <gogonkt``> talk less do more
23:52:11 <LOOP-HOG> sure
23:52:19 <LOOP-HOG> it's easy to just talk
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23:53:42 <gogonkt``> may a dream become true need do a lot of things
23:54:12 <gogonkt``> s/may/make/
23:57:20 <LOOP-HOG> ok, bye for now.  sorry I can't think of anything else semi-intellegent to say
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