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00:53:47 <DeforMobile> Does the programmer have control over the return stack?
00:54:05 <DeforMobile> Or is it just handled by the compiler and the word definitions?
00:54:15 <DeforMobile> I mean, there isn't any builtin functions for manipulating it, are there?
00:56:47 <DeforMobile> Also, can words be passed on the stack similar to a function pointer as an argument in C?
00:57:45 <ASau> In some systems return stack is real return stack.
00:57:51 <ASau> I'd say, in most of them.
00:58:37 <DeforMobile> Meaning that the programmer doesn't manipulate it, it only holds the return address for procedures?
00:59:01 <ASau> Real return stack means programmer has full control on it.
00:59:16 * DeforMobile scratches head.
00:59:23 <DeforMobile> Can you explain?
00:59:40 <ASau> "Return stack" is just another stack in ANS Forth.
00:59:47 <ASau> The name is historical.
01:00:01 <ASau> In earlier standards it was real return stack.
01:00:19 <ASau> In most systems this stays.
01:00:26 <ASau> Return stack is real return stack.
01:00:40 <ASau> But this isn't mandated by standard and thus is implementation-dependent.
01:00:57 <ASau> If you know Lisp, cf. CAR and CDR.
01:01:55 <ASau> They stand for historical Lisp implementation, there're no address and decrement registers in Lisp.
01:02:10 <DeforMobile> :someword other word; When someword is called, and then other is called, how does the compiler get back to word?
01:02:22 <DeforMobile> I thought it stored the return address in the return stack.
01:02:35 <ASau> On _real_ return stack.
01:03:01 <ASau> And, compiler doesn't go back easily.
01:03:35 <ASau> Unless you instruct it to do otherwise, it is one-pass.
01:04:03 <ASau> I think you should read some book on Forth.
01:04:12 <ASau> Like "Starting Forth" modern edition.
01:04:20 <DeforMobile> I have read it.
01:04:44 <ASau> Hm.
01:06:05 <DeforMobile> A long time ago though...
01:06:08 <ASau> I thought it explains that rather well...
01:06:25 <DeforMobile> ASau: What about my other question?
01:06:26 <ASau> I studied Forth with FIG Forth based book after Semjonov.
01:06:36 <ASau> Long time ago too.
01:06:55 <ASau> Can words be passed?
01:06:59 <ASau> Sure.
01:07:06 <DeforMobile> Aright.
01:07:08 <ASau> Read about execution tokens.
01:07:11 <DeforMobile> Are they often passed?
01:07:17 <ASau> Yes.
01:07:27 <DeforMobile> I remember something like ".r" or something weird like that was used to pass words.
01:07:30 <ASau> At least, I do.
01:07:44 <ASau> ' and [']
01:07:52 <DeforMobile> Ah, that's it I think.
01:08:01 <ASau> To get execution token.
01:08:12 <ASau> "execute" and "catch" to run it.
01:08:32 <ASau> Listen, I have to run.
01:08:45 <DeforMobile> Aright, thanks, I will reread starting forth.
01:08:58 <ASau> Will be off-line till the evening, probably.
01:09:24 <ASau> When new questions arise, ask.
01:09:38 <ASau> See you.
01:09:43 <DeforMobile> Yep.
01:09:44 <DeforMobile> o/
01:23:50 <DeforMobile> Oh wow, this is all coming back.
01:23:57 <DeforMobile> ^^
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06:13:34 <kspaans> Hmm, I recently bought "Threaded Interpretive Languages". I haven't gotten around to reading it though.
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07:07:43 * TreyB has more than one copy.
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14:38:37 <Quartus__> hi.
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15:18:36 <DeforMobile> "Tick always goes to the next word in the input stream. "  I do not understand that.
15:18:43 <DeforMobile> Can anyone clear it up for me?
15:19:04 <ASau> The usage is this: ' word
15:19:16 <DeforMobile> I know that.
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15:19:25 <DeforMobile> This example confuses me:
15:19:26 <DeforMobile> : SAY  ' 'aloha ! ;
15:19:34 <DeforMobile> SAY HELLO
15:19:49 <ASau> It bails out with error.
15:19:58 <DeforMobile> Why doesn't it take the xt of aloha?
15:20:05 <DeforMobile> Not according to starting forth chapter 9.
15:20:10 <ASau> Because it isn't state-smart.
15:20:25 <DeforMobile> Huh?
15:20:31 <ASau> You read the outdated Starting Forth.
15:20:38 <ASau> Get a modern revision.
15:20:40 <DeforMobile> http://forth.com/starting-forth/sf9/sf9.html
15:20:44 <DeforMobile> I am reading that.
15:21:00 <ASau> Since ANS-94 tick isn't state-smart.
15:21:18 <ASau> It is regular, not immediate word, like it was before.
15:22:03 <ASau> Original SF 2nd ed. referred to '79 and '83 Forths.
15:22:24 <DeforMobile> Oh.
15:22:26 <DeforMobile> Aright.
15:22:29 <DeforMobile> So that example fails now?
15:22:59 <ASau> Your "say hello" tries to get xt of "hello".
15:23:13 <ASau> And store it into 'aloha.
15:23:25 <ASau> I don't know, if it is intended.
15:24:33 <ASau> Hm.
15:24:35 <ASau> Well...
15:24:49 <ASau> The SF at your link is modern enough.
15:24:58 <ASau> At least in that chapter.
15:25:47 <DeforMobile> : SAY  ' 'aloha ! ;
15:26:04 <DeforMobile> I don't see why it doesn't take the xf of 'aloha
15:26:14 <DeforMobile> I don't understand why it takes the xf of hello instead.
15:27:10 <DeforMobile> Well, I need to go, I will be back in about an hour.
15:27:31 <DeforMobile> If you want, I would appreciate an answer regardless, I will read it when I get back.
15:27:36 <DeforMobile> Thanks.
15:27:38 <DeforMobile> o/
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15:31:14 <ASau> You seem to miss the main point.
15:31:33 <ASau> Tick isn't immediate, it is executed when "say" is executed.
15:31:39 <tathi> DeforMobile: ' is not immediate, so it is compiled into SAY
15:31:50 <tathi> it doesn't actually happen until SAY is executed
15:31:50 <ASau> At that time the next word is "hello", not 'aloha.
15:31:57 <tathi> Heh.  What ASau said.
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16:37:38 <DeforMobile> ASau: Oh.
16:37:58 <DeforMobile> I see now.
16:38:01 <DeforMobile> And it's weird.
16:38:03 <DeforMobile> Heh.
16:38:19 <DeforMobile> The interpreter/compiler part of forth always trips me up.
16:38:34 <DeforMobile> Thanks tathi too.
16:39:12 <slava> i don't like the interpet/compile distinction
16:41:21 <DeforMobile> slava: Yeah, it's tricky.
16:44:53 <DeforMobile> Bah.
16:45:04 <DeforMobile> I would have understood if I would have read to [']
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16:51:00 <tathi> Yeah, I can see why Chuck chose that distinction, but I don't like it much.
16:51:27 <slava> i think its better to always compile.
16:51:40 <DeforMobile> I agree.
16:53:22 <DeforMobile> Mostly.
17:06:22 <DeforMobile> So uhm.
17:06:38 <DeforMobile> "Nested Levels of Execution" is confusing me now.
17:06:44 <DeforMobile> Oh, never mind.
17:06:49 <DeforMobile> I think the next part will clear it up.
17:07:02 <DeforMobile> I wish that this book had complete thoughts in a single heading...
17:09:06 <DeforMobile> Do most forths have tail call optimization?
17:09:32 <slava> not sure
17:09:37 <slava> many do
17:09:54 <slava> since its trivial to implement and enables some useful programming styles
17:13:39 <DeforMobile> Yeah.
17:13:43 <DeforMobile> I am an optimization fanatic.
17:13:50 <DeforMobile> It is by far my favorite aspect of programming.
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19:15:58 <LOOP-HOG> hi
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19:31:09 <DeforMobile> Hi.
19:37:28 <LOOP-HOG> hi
19:38:13 <LOOP-HOG> what is going on?
19:53:54 <DeforMobile> Not a ton.
19:54:46 <LOOP-HOG> I'm reading the VF_S24 Programmers Guide for kicks
19:54:54 <LOOP-HOG> I have no idea what I would do with this
19:55:18 <LOOP-HOG> the idea of owning a Forth chip on a thumb drive sounds neato to me, but then again, what would I actually do with it
19:55:45 <LOOP-HOG> supposedly if I could think of a great app for this thing, then I could maybe get an evaluation drive
19:56:05 <LOOP-HOG> but I don't know electronics, just programming.  That pretty much limits my abilities here
19:56:22 <DeforMobile> LOOP-HOG: Eh, don't hold your breath.
19:56:26 <DeforMobile> I asked for one months ago.
19:56:31 <DeforMobile> And I never got one.
19:56:33 <DeforMobile> No one does.
19:56:36 <LOOP-HOG> oh
19:56:40 <DeforMobile> It has always been like that.
19:56:46 <DeforMobile> All forth chips are rarely distributed.
19:56:49 <DeforMobile> Vaporware.
19:56:51 <LOOP-HOG> what did you tell them that you wanted to do with it?
19:57:03 <DeforMobile> The only people who will ever really get them are employees.
19:57:18 <DeforMobile> I just said I was a hobbiest. 
19:57:44 <LOOP-HOG> I think that you have to show them that you would actually put it into some real world product
19:57:57 <LOOP-HOG> my mind draws a blank though
19:58:07 <DeforMobile> That is full of shit.
19:58:19 <DeforMobile> No one can say they have a good plan for the chip if they have never tried it.
19:58:31 <DeforMobile> That is why real chip companies give away evaluation chips for FREE.
19:58:35 <DeforMobile> Free shipping and everything.
19:58:36 <DeforMobile> Try it,
19:58:39 <DeforMobile> Ask pic for some chips.
19:58:49 <DeforMobile> They sent me like $50 in chips, with overnight shipping.
19:58:53 <DeforMobile> and I didn't even pay a dime.
19:59:32 <DeforMobile> They say that just because they need ideas because they made these chips without any business plan or money to start the business.
19:59:41 <DeforMobile> That's my view on it anyway.
19:59:53 <DeforMobile> I got an email from them like two weeks after asking.
19:59:59 <DeforMobile> Then months without hearing a thing.
20:00:04 <LOOP-HOG> Also, if you did get a Forth chip somehow, it would be stuck inside of a thumb drive and then you would not have access to the pins, which would make it hard to really evaluate
20:00:14 <DeforMobile> And from the discussion in this channel, I deduct that it is very common for that to happen.
20:01:06 <LOOP-HOG> maybe they only got 50 chips or something, and they can't really just give them to us
20:01:25 <DeforMobile> That is roughly the situation.
20:01:47 <DeforMobile> A lot of good they are going to do with 50 chips, aye?
20:01:56 <DeforMobile> That has been the trend with all forth chips.
20:02:39 <LOOP-HOG> have you ever seen a real forth chip in real life?
20:02:49 <DeforMobile> No.
20:03:21 <LOOP-HOG> I did.  I went to visit Greg Bailey when he had his office in downtown Portland Oregon and he took it out of a drawer and showed it to me, but it wasn't hooked up
20:03:46 <LOOP-HOG> I'm trying to remember
20:03:48 <DeforMobile> Heh, maybe some employees will show up in here again to verify that seaforth isn't vaporware. 
20:03:53 <DeforMobile> That was funny.
20:04:19 <LOOP-HOG> I think it was an NC4000, but not sure
20:05:11 <LOOP-HOG> well unless regular nobodies like you and me can get ahold of one, then people like you will continue to think that they are vapor, so they should understand that
20:05:30 <LOOP-HOG> no insult intended
20:05:59 <DeforMobile> There are people who are much less of a nobody than I who agree.
20:06:22 <LOOP-HOG> may I ask what you do and what you might have used the chip for?
20:06:34 <DeforMobile> I am just a bored optimization freak sixteen year old.
20:06:38 <DeforMobile> A toy.
20:07:32 <DeforMobile> Maybe try some simulations or some weird parallel thing.
20:07:48 <DeforMobile> Not like that cannot be done the gpu.
20:08:03 <DeforMobile> But it would just be fun to fool with a unique instruction set like that.
20:08:07 <LOOP-HOG> Yhea, I'd probable just use it to blink some lights and use it to play back some sound samps using somebody elses code
20:08:34 <LOOP-HOG> do u know 4th?
20:08:58 <DeforMobile> I did.
20:09:06 <DeforMobile> I am rediscovering it.
20:09:22 <LOOP-HOG> I like SwiftForth
20:10:41 <DeforMobile> Well, if I had a forthdrive, it's would probably get most of it's use via someone other than I.
20:10:48 <DeforMobile> Over ssh or something.
20:10:49 <DeforMobile> Heh.
20:11:07 <LOOP-HOG> what have you written in Forth?
20:11:29 <DeforMobile> Not a ton.
20:11:35 <DeforMobile> I have just fooled around with it.
20:11:40 <DeforMobile> I never found it very practical.
20:11:56 <LOOP-HOG> I wrote video game for an old Atari computer before, it worked great
20:12:04 <DeforMobile> I will probably be a C person forever.
20:12:06 <LOOP-HOG> it even had a cartoon in it like pacman
20:12:12 <LOOP-HOG> if you won the game
20:12:30 <LOOP-HOG> the problem was I didn't have any playtesters, so it was super duper hard
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20:12:35 <LOOP-HOG> ofcourse I could beat it
20:12:41 <LOOP-HOG> nobody else could
20:12:49 <LOOP-HOG> even get past the 3rd level, ha ah
20:13:13 <DeforMobile> I started programming in Lisp, then I went to C and never really found something I would rather use.
20:13:18 <LOOP-HOG> which begs teh question, why are you hanging out here, not that I'm against it
20:13:46 <DeforMobile> Just because I don't use it, doesn't mean I don't find it interesting.
20:13:51 <LOOP-HOG> I actually tried to learn C in community college, and it just pissed me off, because I already knew Forth and couldn't think of a reason why this was better
20:14:37 <LOOP-HOG> like, why would I use a function which limits me to passing out one ( and always just one ) value
20:14:49 <LOOP-HOG> It's a weird perspective I guess
20:15:27 <LOOP-HOG> I realize that it is because of mathematics, and C and it's ilk are described in terms of conventional mathematics
20:15:41 <DeforMobile> Well.
20:16:04 <DeforMobile> I dunno.
20:16:33 <DeforMobile> I always fool around with making my own language.
20:16:35 <LOOP-HOG> Maybe it's because the computer department was heavily influenced by the mathematics department in the far past
20:16:38 <DeforMobile> Something I am constantly working on.
20:16:49 <LOOP-HOG> you make your own language in C?
20:16:50 <DeforMobile> New styles, new syntax, always writing specifications.
20:17:01 <DeforMobile> I usually write interpreters in D.
20:17:07 <LOOP-HOG> D?
20:17:13 <LOOP-HOG> wut is D?
20:17:21 <DeforMobile> It is like C++
20:17:29 <DeforMobile> Just cleaner and less common.
20:17:42 <slava> http://www.digitalmars.com/
20:17:46 <LOOP-HOG> make a language and call it  :D   pronounced smiley  lol
20:17:48 <DeforMobile> Yep.
20:18:00 <DeforMobile> Heh, it's just something I am always doing.
20:18:02 <DeforMobile> Not sure why.
20:18:12 <LOOP-HOG> it beats smoking crack I suppose :)
20:18:26 <LOOP-HOG> or causing unwanted pregnancies
20:18:30 <DeforMobile> I have to have made at least 6 language specs in the past two years.
20:18:33 <LOOP-HOG> Just being a butthead
20:18:36 <DeforMobile> Only implemented two.
20:18:51 <DeforMobile> The one I am currently working on is very bizzare. 
20:18:58 <LOOP-HOG> how so?
20:19:14 <DeforMobile> Eh, I am publishing some work on it.
20:19:20 <DeforMobile> So I cannot really explain until that goes through.
20:19:22 <DeforMobile> Sorry. :(
20:19:34 <LOOP-HOG> ok
20:20:52 <LOOP-HOG> how about SpamForth(tm)
20:21:19 <LOOP-HOG> a special Forth made just for harvesting emails and spamming people... lol
20:21:36 <DeforMobile> Heh.
20:23:08 <DeforMobile> I am also really interested in self modifying code and code that will generate code at runtime.
20:23:33 <LOOP-HOG> that's interesting
20:25:54 <LOOP-HOG> there is actually a book, just one book, on Forth at my local technical bookstore.  I flipped through it but the quality of the code therein was so poor as to make the book uninteresting me to
20:26:01 <LOOP-HOG> I can't remember the title
20:26:18 <LOOP-HOG> I just thought to myself, why bother with Forth if you can't write elegant code in it
20:26:56 <DeforMobile> Heh.
20:27:11 <LOOP-HOG> no factoring
20:27:18 <LOOP-HOG> huge definitions
20:27:40 <LOOP-HOG> which makes your code look like big assembly listings 2 me
20:28:17 <DeforMobile> Hehe.
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20:29:13 <LOOP-HOG> forther!
20:29:26 <LOOP-HOG> r u a forther?  forther.
20:30:23 <DeforMobile> Forther works for intellasys. 
20:30:29 <DeforMobile> He has a forthdrive.
20:30:48 <DeforMobile> If I remember correctly.
20:30:52 <LOOP-HOG> WOW
20:30:56 <LOOP-HOG> coral him!'
20:31:10 <LOOP-HOG> say.....forther....what about the Forth Drive?
20:32:25 <LOOP-HOG> hes hiding
20:40:49 <LOOP-HOG> I'm tempted to try Glypher
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22:54:50 <LOOP-HOG> hi
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23:32:44 --- quit: MalfermitaKodo (Success)
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/08.08.21