00:00:00 --- log: started forth/08.05.28 00:01:36 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-5119c0ff01198ec0) joined #forth 00:11:18 --- join: ac_ (i=ac@rainbow.koenig.ru) joined #forth 00:29:36 --- quit: ac_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:29:53 --- join: ac_ (i=ac@rainbow.koenig.ru) joined #forth 01:04:22 --- quit: manic12 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:30:18 --- quit: ac_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:30:32 --- join: ac_ (i=kvirc@rainbow.koenig.ru) joined #forth 03:41:00 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 04:16:26 --- quit: ac_ ("Leaving") 06:03:35 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 06:14:23 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 06:15:44 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-324215291957dc1f) joined #forth 07:37:35 --- quit: ramkrsna ("Leaving") 07:55:30 --- join: neceve (n=ncv@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 08:10:43 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@AMarseille-151-1-81-251.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth 08:30:21 --- part: kar8nga left #forth 09:17:24 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 09:19:08 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-d145cda37011af94) joined #forth 09:22:28 --- join: I440r (n=mark4@70.102.202.140) joined #forth 09:25:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 09:26:35 --- quit: nighty__ (Client Quit) 09:27:53 lol poppavic is now fully devoiced in #c wtf 09:44:40 fucking HATE the c language 09:57:52 I440r: you don't have to hate it just because it sucks 09:58:06 no i have to hate it because i have to use the fucking thing 09:58:34 need to determin file size, told not to use fskee/ftell but to use fstat. man fsta == TLDR 09:58:56 erm man fstat even 10:02:18 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 10:02:47 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 10:03:02 fstat looks easy 10:04:11 struct stat s; stat("path", &s); printf("size: %i", s.st_size); 10:04:21 way too much information to wade throu the man page. im juust googling for example code that uses it 10:04:22 stat() returns -1 if it fails 10:04:34 you don't have to read the whole thing 10:04:42 just look at the prototype, includes required, and example IN THE MAN PAGE 10:04:44 you ALWAYS have to read the whoe fucking thing 10:05:06 im not at a linux terminal, th eONLY man pages i get are from googleing shit 10:05:09 there's an example in the man page, you don't have to google it 10:05:27 google for "man fstat" and it'll probably show you the same thing I'm looking at 10:05:28 ok. tell me how to man blah in windows please 10:05:43 sorry, im just getting frustrated 10:05:48 way 10:05:48 too 10:05:49 fucking 10:05:50 complex 10:07:24 huh, the man pages for it that I'm seeing by googling "man fstat" don't have the example 10:07:49 I440r: you go to gogole, and type "man fstat" 10:07:52 google 10:08:04 ive been reading the man page for fstat from... 10:08:15 http://www.opengroup.org/ 10:08:25 T L D R 10:08:53 way too much bullshit, it took me 10 minutes just to see the freeking st_size element of the structure 10:09:04 man pages are the suck. specially c function man pages 10:09:19 i have to force myself to read that puke 10:09:23 so i miss shit 10:09:32 --- part: JasonWoof left #forth 10:09:37 its always "cant see the woods for the trees" 10:13:34 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@unaffiliated/herkamire) joined #forth 10:13:34 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 10:18:29 sweeet 10:18:42 I440r: found an awesome site for linux manpages: http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/online_pages.html 10:19:22 since my man-page was way better than the 4 I found via google (if only because it has a nice example) I went back to my man page, and followed the link at the bottom 10:19:25 found that page 10:19:31 :) 10:19:34 i bookmarked it 10:19:53 you can search and browse all their manpages online. they've got them in nice html, and you can actually click the references to other man pages 10:21:09 ya 10:21:59 good, searchable docs is important! 10:22:38 good docs. searchable is a plus lol 10:22:59 i hate man pages though, it all started with a man 2 i-forget-what that said only "you do not need to know this" 10:23:11 then i saw the man page for getopt which reads like a legal document 10:23:22 the argument of the first part blah blbh of the second part shal blah blah 10:23:30 shudder 10:33:55 http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/online/pages/man7/standards.7.html 10:34:05 I had no idea how recent most of those specs are! 10:35:00 yea. thats the problem lol. "bleeding edge" 10:35:17 but that's the funny thing 10:35:19 unix is old 10:35:31 yea. it should have matured by now :/ 10:35:44 making your fstat system call work the same as the old unix mainframes is not "bleeding edge" 10:36:33 but it seems to me that most of the unix-like OSes were written mostly before the standards were ratified 10:36:41 or even published in many cases 10:38:16 sounds like forth :) 10:38:27 heh 10:50:51 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 10:52:36 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-41f9e3dde56a8f4f) joined #forth 11:06:30 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 11:09:54 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@AMarseille-151-1-81-251.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth 11:18:30 --- join: I440r (n=mark4_@70.102.202.140) joined #forth 11:19:15 --- part: kar8nga left #forth 11:36:41 --- quit: I440r (Remote closed the connection) 11:38:22 --- join: I440r (n=mark4_@70.102.202.140) joined #forth 11:49:04 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 12:00:53 --- join: Quartus` (n=Quartus`@205.205.50.1) joined #forth 12:03:15 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus`@205.205.50.1) joined #forth 12:04:18 hi 12:08:54 def, missed your query yesterday 12:09:15 catch/throw are probably what you're after 12:26:01 --- quit: Quartus` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:03:36 --- part: Baughn left #forth 13:26:23 --- join: I440r (n=mark4_@70.102.202.140) joined #forth 13:29:33 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 13:40:42 --- quit: neceve (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:41:31 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-088-068-219-184.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 13:42:02 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Nick collision from services.) 13:42:16 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 13:42:18 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 13:44:36 --- join: ecraven (n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net) joined #forth 13:52:18 hehe, there's a movement to set a world record for most software distributed in 24 hours when firefox 3 comes out 13:52:41 funny line on the page: it's that easy. We're not asking you to swallow a sword or to balance 30 spoons on your face, although that would be kind of awesome. 13:53:24 * slava isn't downloading firefox 3 14:03:19 @#*&($#@! now we'll never make the record ;) 14:06:26 :) 14:38:55 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 14:38:55 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 14:44:17 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 14:57:38 --- join: kar8nga (n=kar8nga@AMarseille-151-1-81-251.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth 14:57:51 --- part: kar8nga left #forth 15:02:23 --- join: manic12 (n=manic12@c-98-227-139-160.hsd1.il.comcast.net) joined #forth 15:16:34 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Ray@unaffiliated/raystm2) joined #forth 15:24:22 --- quit: Raystm2 (Client Quit) 15:39:45 --- join: I440r (n=mark4@70.102.202.140) joined #forth 15:40:40 ok, someone splane to me why it takes windows TWO FUCKING HOURS to format an 80 gig drive 15:51:53 Does the return stack strictly contain return addresses? 15:51:57 Actual jump locations? 15:52:01 Or does it contain more?\ 15:53:45 usually return addresses... 15:53:55 You can put other things on it with >R 15:54:11 loop index/limit for DO..LOOP and friends are usually stored on the rstack 15:55:34 Ah, that helps quite a bit. 15:56:23 What are you trying to do? 15:56:51 I am trying to understand what the return stack does. :) 15:57:25 Ah, ok. :) 15:57:28 I was wondering how the stack was free of frames, and yet procedures still return. 15:57:37 But then I remembered about the return stack, and now it makes sense. 15:57:47 Yeah. separate data and return stacks 15:59:36 Standard programs are only allowed to use it for temporary storage within a word. 16:12:05 tathi: I am guessing that one is top down, the other is bottom up? 16:12:32 implementation detail; you don't need to know about that. :) 16:12:54 Sometimes they both grow down 16:13:37 Yep, it is just so well designed, everything is thought out so well. 16:14:00 --- join: uiuiu (n=ian@HSI-KBW-085-216-030-033.hsi.kabelbw.de) joined #forth 16:14:25 Well, it *has* been around for a while... 16:15:01 --- quit: uiuiu (Client Quit) 16:15:56 Deformative, you cannot guarantee that from within ANY given definition that the top item of the return stack is your return address 16:16:10 in fact. you cant guarantee anything is there unles YOU put it there yourself 16:16:28 which imho is a flaw with ans but thats just me :) 16:17:06 tathi "you dont need to know this" is a c'ism not a forth'ism 16:17:26 there is no system. there is no user. there is just forth 16:17:31 there is no spoon! 16:17:42 I440r: That's your opinion. I don't agree with you there. 16:18:15 show me the spoon :P~ 16:18:47 --- join: uiuiu (n=ian@HSI-KBW-085-216-030-033.hsi.kabelbw.de) joined #forth 16:18:56 I've never had occasion to write code that knows how the data on the stacks is stored; I don't see that there's any reason to care about it. 16:19:13 I mean, sure, if you're curious how it actually works, that's fine. 16:19:18 theres no reason why that info should be "off limits" 16:19:27 I agree. 16:19:39 But you need to realize that it is probably different on different Forth systems. 16:19:52 And that knowing it has no practical use. :) 16:20:04 : asm> r> opcode >r !> opcode ..... ; 16:20:36 every time an opcode numonic is execute the PREVIOUS one is the one that actually gets executed. the current opcode wont execute until the next one is seen 16:20:54 cannot do that without absolute confidence that the top of return stack IS your return address 16:21:19 and in ans forth you are NOT allowed to know what is at the top of the return stack on entry into any given definition 16:21:22 f l a w 16:21:23 Er...but that's not what I was talking about. 16:21:36 its the same thing 16:21:42 No, it's not the same thing at all. 16:22:17 I said I couldn't think of any practical use for knowing whether the return stack grows upward or downward in memory (or indeed, whether it's stored in addressable memory at all). 16:22:46 well. you cant guarantee that it IS stored in accessable memory (think pic ugh) 16:22:47 I agree that it would have been nice if the standard specified that return addresses were one cell on the return stack. 16:23:05 tathi they cant do that. an "optimizer" might inline your function 16:23:12 i.e. there is no return address there... 16:23:35 compilers modifying the order of operations behind your back are allowed. you having control of your return stack is not 16:23:35 So? 16:23:44 flaw 16:24:03 IMO if the optimizer doesn't handle that case, then it is broken. 16:24:16 Which...if they document it, and give you a way to turn it off, then...OK. 16:24:45 the ONLY optimizer that can handle every case you might throw at it is YOU 16:24:45 But a serious optimizer should have no trouble dealing with inlining properly. 16:25:10 But that's no reason to throw away optimizers. 16:25:40 thyeres also another very serious flaw with the whoe optimize thing. optimized code is often very difficult to debug so people turn it off for development and turn it on for production 16:25:59 thats fine in maybe most cases but there are times when that is not acceptable 16:26:06 i.e. "you FLY what you tested" 16:26:09 --- quit: uiuiu ("Living") 16:26:37 Whatever. We've been over this several times before; neither of us is going to change his mind. :) 16:26:41 --- join: uiuiu (n=ian@HSI-KBW-085-216-030-033.hsi.kabelbw.de) joined #forth 16:26:53 --- quit: uiuiu (Client Quit) 16:30:03 --- join: uiu (n=ian@HSI-KBW-085-216-030-033.hsi.kabelbw.de) joined #forth 16:31:36 --- quit: uiu (Client Quit) 16:33:59 --- quit: JasonWoof ("rebooting to fix stupid soundcard") 16:35:21 --- quit: uiuiuiu ("Living") 16:36:25 --- join: uiu_ (n=ian@schihei.net) joined #forth 16:37:23 --- join: uiu (n=ian@HSI-KBW-085-216-030-033.hsi.kabelbw.de) joined #forth 16:42:16 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:42:19 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 16:47:36 --- join: TreyB_ (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 16:47:36 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:47:54 --- quit: TreyB_ (Client Quit) 17:10:01 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-65-96-165-155.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:10:11 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 17:26:32 I440r: a good optimizer doesn't hinder debugging 17:40:45 yay! I got rid of firefox's stupid slow-as-hell location bar dropdown 17:41:54 I match exactly the reccommended system requirements for ff3 17:42:15 and yet I can type about half a URL before that stupid location box would catch up to my typing 17:42:25 and after that it would lag behind slightly 17:42:25 heh 17:42:48 note, that I match the reccommended, not just the minimum requirements 17:42:55 (recommended is about double the minimum) 17:43:24 hope the damn thing never comes back 18:06:41 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:07:47 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@61.7.144.97) joined #forth 18:18:25 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 19:48:55 --- quit: Snoopy42 (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:48:57 --- quit: cmeme (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:57:23 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-088-068-219-184.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 19:57:23 --- join: cmeme (n=cmeme@boa.b9.com) joined #forth 20:25:43 --- join: edrx (i=edrx@189.25.156.146) joined #forth 20:46:19 man, I suck at programming right now 22:46:00 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-dddb6d0f6d8515a6) joined #forth 22:47:38 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 22:49:05 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-736e1c2045ba9d44) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/08.05.28