00:00:00 --- log: started forth/08.03.31 00:05:08 --- quit: Al2O3_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:23:35 --- join: Al2O3_ (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 00:31:41 --- quit: Al2O3 (Connection timed out) 00:57:06 --- quit: slava (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:57:06 --- quit: timlarson (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:59:52 --- join: slava (n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com) joined #forth 01:09:20 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 01:18:37 --- quit: timlarson (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:19:14 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 01:48:29 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:49:55 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-ef31e27260a1b5c9) joined #forth 02:06:26 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@ppp-124-120-227-87.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 02:28:30 --- quit: nighty^ (Remote closed the connection) 02:30:39 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 02:37:52 --- quit: Al2O3_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:15:43 --- join: Al2O3_ (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 03:21:13 --- quit: Al2O3 (Connection timed out) 05:13:15 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 05:26:37 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@p1022-adsau16honb13-acca.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) joined #forth 05:39:35 --- join: ccfg (n=pitkajus@tuomi.oulu.fi) joined #forth 08:05:50 --- quit: Quartus` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:10:45 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:16:18 --- quit: Al2O3_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:45:03 --- join: Quartus` (n=Quartus`@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 08:52:14 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 08:53:30 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-93e74fa4b2aa071a) joined #forth 10:25:50 --- join: JasonWoof (n=JasonWoo@unaffiliated/herkamire) joined #forth 10:25:50 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 10:36:24 --- join: Maki (n=Maki@adsl-202-95.eunet.yu) joined #forth 11:47:50 --- join: Al2O3_ (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 11:52:32 --- quit: Quartus` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:55:22 --- quit: Al2O3 (Connection timed out) 12:11:58 --- join: MalfermitaKodo (n=kansu@xdsl-78-34-142-1.netcologne.de) joined #forth 12:12:52 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:17:54 --- quit: Al2O3_ (Connection timed out) 12:23:54 --- quit: Malfermi1aKodo (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:02:48 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 13:13:27 HONK! 13:15:28 oh dear ... 13:18:40 sorry 13:19:15 maybe I shouldn't have had so much sugar :) 13:19:42 I can only imagine what one could do with forth in a sugar high 13:20:04 SWAP SWAP SWAP SWAP SWAP SWAP SWAP 13:20:55 whole lotta nothin1 13:21:06 anybody played with the forth foundation library? 13:21:24 heard it's got hashes, regexp and all kinds of goodies 13:39:26 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 13:39:26 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 13:40:17 ffl has some nice stuff... 13:40:48 cool 13:40:48 not a finely crafted library, but it works. 13:40:53 heh 13:41:01 does it work well? 13:41:22 It works just fine as far as I know. 13:41:38 I'm probably just reacting to the poor english and whatnot. 13:41:42 heh 13:41:48 is the code ugly? 13:41:53 and the three-letter prefixes on the names. 13:42:05 that sounded a little extreme 13:42:08 The bits I've read aren't bad. 13:42:21 all words have three leter prefixes? 13:42:46 guess that makes sense if you've got three different kinds of lists 13:42:46 http://ffl.dvoudheusden.net/doc.html 13:42:56 yup. each module has a three-letter prefix 13:43:46 suppose you can't just say "import append remove list-alloc from doubly-linked.fs" like in some languages 13:44:18 right 13:44:29 I should point out that I've only really used the string buffer stuff. 13:44:48 I played around with a few of the other bits, but that's all. 13:45:18 this came up because someone asked me why I abandoned gforthcgi 13:45:31 needed some data structures? 13:45:44 one of my reasons being that I didn't have code to do a host of useful things, like deal with hashes, string manipulation, etc 13:45:55 he asked if I'd looked at ffl 13:46:28 I'm so used to having automatic type conversion, string interpolation, and garbage collection for web scripting 13:46:45 most of my web scripts don't do anything clever, they just mung up text 13:46:49 pass data around 13:46:50 yup 13:46:59 I think is better at doing clever things 13:47:25 and I figure when I want to do something faster than it can be done in PHP I'll probably want to go straight to C 13:47:42 "I think is better at doing clever things" ? 13:48:12 I think _forth_ is better at doing clever things than it is at string mangling 13:48:20 ah. 13:50:27 I should finish my fastcgi and templating stuff. 13:50:52 Don't remember why I got bogged down... 13:53:49 eh, life 13:54:04 huh, just started reading the ffl cmdline args parsing stuff 13:54:37 looks like it's designed to spit out the --help page that tells you about the options that you teach it how to parse 13:54:42 kinda wish it was the other way... 13:54:56 wish I could just write the --help output and it would parse that and figure what to look for on the cmd args 13:55:21 Did you read that paper by Alan Kay's working group? 13:55:31 That was pretty damn cool. 13:55:34 about a month ago I was reading up on this project to create a new programming system/os/thing 13:55:46 Steps to a new paradigm of programming or something like that 13:56:00 they were into parsers and stuff, and to implement TCP they wrote a parser for the bit diagrams in the RFCs 13:56:09 hehe, I think that's what it's called 13:56:27 STEPS sounds right 13:56:37 "STEPS Toward The Reinvention of Programming" 13:56:45 yeah. 13:56:58 some of the names were confusing tome 13:57:03 to me 13:57:06 yeah. 13:57:09 sounded pretty rad though 13:57:25 I thought the parser could have been much better written. 13:57:28 I agree with the basic premise (current systems are too complex to be reasonably dealt with) 13:57:35 Very cool that they can do that sort of thing though. 13:57:39 yeah 13:57:53 Not that it's really *that* difficult. 13:58:09 I really like the idea of having an accessible meta-language 13:58:10 Just that not many other people have started putting the pieces together. 13:58:17 so you can program in whatever language you like, and it can be translated 13:58:27 if you're good at parsers and code-generators, seems to me that could really work 13:58:43 sounded like they got a big chunk of money about a year ago? 13:59:06 I dunno. 13:59:25 something like that I think 13:59:30 Some guy from Microsoft started a company to do sort of similar things, and he's totally pouring money into it. 13:59:47 I don't really like the way software is going 13:59:51 I get the projects confused a bit sometimes. 14:00:01 pretty soon my computer will just grind to a halt when I start firefox 14:00:21 hehe 14:01:20 I'd love to see someone take on a project to make a small browser. 14:01:29 yeah, this is what I was reading: http://vpri.org/pdf/steps_TR-2007-008.pdf 14:01:32 It just doesn't seem as hard as everybody makes it out to be. 14:01:36 That's the one. 14:01:39 yeah 14:01:51 dillo was cool, but don't think anybody's coding on it anymore 14:02:14 I think it's a matter of needing so many pieces that just aren't there 14:02:20 yeah, possibly. 14:02:29 it's gotta be designed right from the begining 14:02:42 A major stalling point with dillo was when they realized they needed a plugin architecture 14:03:17 hi all 14:03:21 But it seems to me that you could start simple, with just the basic rendering model. 14:03:27 also when they realized that they needed to change how they represented the document 14:03:32 Get something simple working, then add the complicated bits in later. 14:03:33 hi slava 14:03:45 yeah, seems that way to me too 14:03:51 but there's just so much crap to deal with 14:04:01 like huge files 14:04:04 ads 14:04:06 popups 14:04:16 guess you can avoid a lot of that up front by being text-only 14:04:33 and there's interface issues 14:04:57 yeah. 14:05:00 character encodings 14:05:10 And firefox makes a *huge* number of really really stupid interface decisions. 14:05:16 yep 14:05:27 I pretty much don't use it anymore 14:05:31 epiphany works for me 14:05:31 oh? 14:06:00 I upgraded to the ubuntu unstable (hardy) and it's got firefox 3-beta or something 14:06:13 I can hardly type a URL into it it's so clunky 14:06:36 hey, whadda ya know? epiphany is already installed. Guess I'll have to try it. 14:06:46 I can type 15-20 characters of the web address before it finishes thinking about possible completions, and actually displays what I'm typing 14:06:54 it's the "gnome browser" 14:07:40 there's a couple annoying things, like you get a dialog when you close google maps 14:07:56 but the plugin manager is much better 14:08:15 I've never used firefox plugins. 14:08:22 I know Troy has a couple nice ones. 14:08:25 you just go into plugin settings and say "adblocker: yes" and they dissapear 14:08:36 firebug is amazing for building websites 14:09:04 click an element on the page and it'll show you all css rules that apply, and let you change them, and it updates the display 14:09:10 nice 14:09:13 excellent javascript debugger too 14:09:19 i like safari 14:09:23 i don't even have firefox installed on my new mac 14:09:36 safari is nice, but proprietary, and afaik not available for linux 14:09:46 doesn't matter if its proprietary, it works well and its fast 14:09:54 matters to me 14:10:00 * JasonWoof checks if the windoze version runs under wine 14:10:12 that's because you're one of those weird linux zealots who uses an old computer and complains about anything that's not GPL :) 14:11:08 yeah. damn those people who don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on a new computer every two years! 14:11:52 sorry, but I don't think it's that weird to want to not trust software vendors 14:12:08 if they're so trustworthy, then why won't they show us the code? 14:12:09 nothing wrong with open source 14:12:18 or proprietary software for that matter 14:12:27 sure, I just don't want to use it 14:13:59 i like new computers. they're fsater 14:14:02 --- nick: Mikoange1o -> mikoangelo 14:14:31 I like not buying new computers; it's cheaper. :) 14:14:44 --- nick: mikoangelo -> Mikoangelo 14:14:55 533 MHz is plenty fast enough for anything I want to do normally, if only the software didn't suck so much. 14:15:36 there's a computer here at work that runs 8 virtual machines 14:15:53 533mhz wouldn't be fast enough for that, and you won't find a 533 mhz machine that cna hold 8 gb of ram either :) 14:16:21 new computers are expensive 14:16:42 I'm not saying it's fast enough for everything anyone would want to do. 14:16:47 and it's wasteful to throw stuff out and replace it when it still works just as well as it ever did 14:16:54 But for browsing the web it should be plenty. 14:17:01 is that all you use a computer for? 14:17:01 works for me. 14:17:08 I've got 500Mhz here 14:17:23 it's probably the most computing-intensive thing I do. 14:17:24 firefox gets slower by the week, but other browsers do fine 14:18:12 I chat, edit text files, compile, browse, and occationally edit web-resolution emages 14:18:30 firefox and oowriter are the only programs that run unreasonably slowly 14:18:52 my laptop has 2gb but i need to upgrade because i run vms too 14:19:00 that's really the most memory-hungry thing i do 14:19:10 cpu is fast enough 14:19:27 we develop software at work that has to run on many OSes 14:19:32 ahh 14:20:41 running two systems at once sounds a little resource intensive 14:20:48 yeah, especially if one of them is solaris 14:20:48 still seems like 1GB aught to be enough 14:20:54 I'm doing fine running one OS on 128MB 14:21:14 what kind of software are you developing? 14:21:36 server apps 14:23:27 I thought people mostly needed lots of ram for graphical stuff 14:23:38 or if you have lots of data... 14:23:45 true 14:24:26 if we were using java i'd need even more memory... :) 14:25:01 don't get me started on java 14:26:01 firefox is bad for the environment 14:27:14 anybody know the name of a really simple config file parser/format? 14:27:21 well peopl like jeff fox keep talking about writing a full-featured web browser in 4kb of code 14:27:23 I think all it supported was comments and key: value lines 14:27:25 but they never show any code 14:27:35 JasonWoof: yaml, json, xml 14:27:40 simpler 14:27:55 litterally, just comments and "key: value" lines 14:28:00 and blank lines of course 14:28:10 yaml is like that but you can use inentation to make tree structure 14:28:14 there are yaml libraries for any language 14:28:29 json is simple too 14:28:30 I know about yaml, it's way more complex than the one I'm trying to remember the name of 14:28:41 why does it matter if its complex if you can use a library? 14:28:44 they both have data types, and support arrays and hashes and such 14:28:47 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 14:28:55 because complex makes it slow 14:28:57 it's one line of code to read or write it in either case 14:29:03 and big 14:29:08 you're reading and writing 100mb config files? 14:29:10 then use a database 14:29:11 and sometimes confusing 14:29:15 linking is slow 14:29:16 no text format will work well 14:29:19 linking? 14:29:30 a few ms? 14:31:15 if you're not getting paid for this then i guess its ok to spend time re-impelementing yet another config format as a learning experience 14:31:22 othewrise you're wasting time and money 14:31:43 what the hell are you talking about? 14:31:51 it's already written, I'm just trying to remember the name of it 14:31:58 it's simple, it works 14:32:24 i think it's part of Jeff Fox's full-featured GUI OS with web browser that fits in 4kb of RAM and runs on non-existent SeaForth chips 14:32:31 I think its called iTV 14:35:45 --- join: skas (n=skas@support.agiledigital.com.au) joined #forth 14:38:50 yep, Jeff talks a lot and doesn't show much 14:42:20 fwiw seems safari mostly works under wine 14:43:17 safari uses the same html widget as konqueror 14:43:20 but its had some changes 14:43:28 i think they get merged eventually though 14:54:49 --- nick: Mikoangelo -> Mikoangelo_ 15:01:07 --- join: crest__ (n=crest@p5B1043FC.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 15:05:59 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-115-083.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 15:08:36 --- join: Quartus` (n=Quartus`@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 15:10:55 hmmm 15:11:00 I can never seem to keep track of it 15:11:10 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus`@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 15:11:20 I think apple forked it, then maybe konqueror was going to use apples fork 15:11:23 something 15:12:38 yeah, apple's fork is called webkit, but it sopen source and from what i heard it was mostly kept in sync with khtml 15:12:45 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 15:13:02 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 15:13:37 --- nick: Mikoangelo_ -> Mikoangel 15:14:35 --- quit: Snoopy42 () 15:15:17 --- quit: tathi ("singing; bbl") 15:17:24 --- quit: crest_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:24:06 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-103-255.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 15:34:07 --- quit: Quartus` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:38:03 --- quit: Maki (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:42:06 well, if the license is kind enough, I'd love a fully open source linux browser based on it 15:42:15 I'm sure apple made some important improvements 16:35:28 --- quit: Quartus__ ("used jmIrc") 16:35:42 --- join: Quartus` (n=Quartus`@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 16:37:48 --- nick: Mikoangel -> Mikoangelo 16:40:00 --- quit: timlarson ("Leaving") 16:50:30 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 17:42:23 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 17:42:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 18:10:47 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@210.188.173.246) joined #forth 18:49:44 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 18:49:57 --- join: Al2O3_ (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:56:27 --- quit: Al2O3 (Connection timed out) 19:13:00 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:20:15 --- quit: Al2O3_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:42:42 --- quit: timlarson (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:42:54 --- join: timlarson__ (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 19:45:09 --- join: adu (n=andrew@pool-71-178-14-80.washdc.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 19:46:15 --- part: adu left #forth 20:02:04 --- join: Al2O3_ (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:09:26 --- quit: Al2O3 (Connection timed out) 20:19:14 --- quit: JasonWoof (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:35:07 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:41:25 --- quit: Al2O3_ (Connection timed out) 20:52:11 --- join: Al2O3_ (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:55:11 --- quit: Quartus` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:59:02 --- quit: Al2O3 (Connection timed out) 21:19:13 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:26:09 --- quit: Al2O3_ (Connection timed out) 21:42:17 --- join: Al2O3_ (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:48:06 --- quit: Al2O3 (Connection timed out) 22:07:19 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:13:24 --- quit: Al2O3_ (Connection timed out) 23:10:08 --- quit: skas (Remote closed the connection) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/08.03.31