00:00:00 --- log: started forth/08.03.28 00:10:59 --- quit: charles54 (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 00:22:00 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 00:54:05 --- join: ecraven (n=nex@140.78.42.150) joined #forth 00:59:22 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p5B104319.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 01:31:39 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:33:02 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@ppp-124-120-226-71.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 02:36:52 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@p5187-adsau17honb13-acca.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) joined #forth 02:53:32 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-208-231.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 03:01:44 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 03:02:11 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 03:09:07 --- join: Maki (n=Maki@adsl-202-95.eunet.yu) joined #forth 03:41:42 --- join: Bushmills (n=nl@verhau.de) joined #forth 03:41:58 'morning 03:42:08 hi 03:42:24 hi 03:43:14 Maki: had a chance to look at http://forthfreak.net/snap/1206564298426225938.png ? 03:43:34 seen it :) 03:43:47 i think that addresses what you were looking for 03:44:02 (this is a plain edit buffer, can be any file) 03:44:44 (only "trick" is the alternative enter key i am using, instead of the normal enter, which simply line breaks) 03:44:54 can I connect to serial port? 03:45:13 if you can do through a shell, i don't see why not. 03:45:23 (for shell commands, you mean?) 03:45:30 nope 03:46:08 a, using editor over serial line? 03:46:14 I mean if I type some forth code, I press magic key and line goes to serial terminal 03:46:41 or I sellect part of code and evaluate it over serial term 03:47:18 forth code in editor can shell (nothing else am i doing here), so through a rube goldberg scheme of writing output to temp file, then shelling the command to send it, i think so. 03:47:20 instead of using two windows editor and termina 03:47:47 or, file can probably also written to serial. block save to named file 03:48:15 though i haven't tested that. but as serial port looks like a file, i am sure that one can write to it 03:50:32 both block save and save to accept a string parameter, to write to. 03:50:54 sorry phone... 03:51:46 "foobar.bla" blockwrite 03:51:49 as I understand in efte you can acces underlying forth system 03:52:02 ehm no, the other way around :) 03:52:06 this forth ssytem can connect to serial? 03:52:16 there is no underlying forth system. 03:53:14 didn't read docs :( 03:53:41 there is a forth like system written in efte scripts, and those script are very forthish too (but less then the interpreter, written in scripts, due to word name restrictions) 03:54:09 for example, where in the interpreter written as scripts, one can say : foo 10 0 do i . loop ; ... 03:54:29 in efte scripts, one would say sub foo { 10 0 do . loop } 03:54:42 because : and ; can't be used on that level 03:54:48 not yet :) 03:55:02 do i . loop ... 03:55:38 but there is not other forth "underneath" or "outside" 03:55:50 ok 03:56:12 all the forthish things are built-on or added as scripts. 03:56:18 in 03:56:40 i'd suggest to take a look at primitives.fte 03:56:59 that extends the built-in capabilities 03:57:37 so some primitives to acces serial port can be added? 03:57:57 (those words can be used from both "level 1" and "level 2" scripts. where "level 2" are now forth words, written in the forth interpreter written in scripts ... 03:58:01 can't look at source now, I'm in win 03:58:02 yes 03:58:16 i can give you the web browsable URL 03:58:28 shoot 03:59:30 http://efte.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/efte/trunk/config/primitives.fte?revision=1007&view=markup 04:00:24 this level is level 1, the "forthish" level 04:00:33 with word name restrictions 04:01:04 that's why it is sub minrot instead of -rot 04:01:19 and sub ... { } instead of : ; 04:02:10 and extending that level is http://efte.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/efte/trunk/config/fireshell.fte?revision=1008&view=markup 04:02:33 which does away with word name restrictions 04:02:55 essentually, implementing a small forth interpreter as scripts 04:03:23 using the eFTE provided command and scripts (including those in primitives.fte) as primitives 04:03:59 that's the one which i have on my alternative enter 04:04:28 also here is the feature added to >shell 04:05:06 so efte provides primitives like movefilestart, block.begin 04:05:16 yes 04:05:37 and user stack, return stack, 04:05:40 so it could support comopen comsendchar... 04:05:45 an array, used as memory 04:06:06 stack primitives ... 04:06:17 oh yes 04:06:48 just I'm not sure if You want to bind to os api? 04:06:53 on that level, it would be adding another primitive. 04:07:32 well, we want to get 1.0 out eventually, therefore we're in a sort of code freeze. i try to remove features, not add them, at the moment 04:07:44 ok 04:07:53 and provide them as scripts, where it makes sense 04:08:09 already down from about 900 kb to around 600 kb :) 04:09:14 reason for this is, we want to replace the current script interpreter completely 04:09:31 so the less in in there, and using it, the easier that will be 04:10:13 essentually moving a more forthish VM in, instead. throwing out the current script compiler too. 04:10:36 and run on editor level what is currently level 2 script interpretation. 04:17:00 My laptop is going crazy. CD door just oppened without any reason... 04:21:57 Bushmills: gtg bbl 04:22:30 --- quit: Maki ("Leaving") 04:22:39 --- join: MalfermitaKodo (n=kansu@xdsl-78-34-129-168.netcologne.de) joined #forth 04:23:00 heh! this chan exists! Hi @ all! 04:23:12 hi 04:24:15 good that you point out that this channel exists. 04:24:24 otherwise ppl wouldn't know :) 04:24:46 I was just surprised and voicing my own emotion... 04:25:02 ah. right. 04:25:17 not a statement of the kind "hey, one can breath air" 04:27:07 * MalfermitaKodo is already glad to find new ressources on the language that metacrawler didn't find within the first pages 04:28:13 http://wiki.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?ForthCommunities 04:29:33 ah... 04:31:18 * MalfermitaKodo is very n00bish, I had to research about FORTH for an assignment and I liksed the concepts behind it 04:31:37 who gives forth assignments? 04:33:11 it was a college assignment about different programming languages and the philosophies behind it 04:33:18 *behind them 04:35:20 interesting 04:35:22 and unusual 04:45:09 --- quit: ecraven ("brb") 06:31:33 --- join: Quartus` (n=Quartus`@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 06:32:23 have you discovered this book yet: http://home.claranet.nl/users/mhx/sf.html ? 06:32:53 and then there is http://www.forthfreak.net/thinking-forth.pdf 06:33:15 http://thinking-forth.sourceforge.net/ 06:34:39 --- join: HyperDimensions (n=me@c-69-139-118-23.hsd1.ky.comcast.net) joined #forth 06:47:38 --- quit: Quartus` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:57:39 --- join: Quartus` (n=Quartus`@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 06:59:00 --- quit: timlarson__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:59:40 --- join: timlarson__ (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 07:16:24 Bushmills: ty for the links 07:16:26 --- quit: madwork ("?OUT OF DATA ERROR") 07:16:27 I'll look at them now 07:17:44 oooooh... the first is the one, a relative gave me when I told him that I researched forth. (That guy is a CS teacher) 07:28:52 --- quit: timlarson__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:43:05 --- join: Maki (n=Maki@adsl-202-95.eunet.yu) joined #forth 07:59:57 --- quit: Crest ("Leaving") 08:28:26 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:34:23 --- join: madwork (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 08:39:41 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@ppp-124-120-226-71.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 08:50:54 --- join: JasonWoof (n=JasonWoo@unaffiliated/herkamire) joined #forth 08:50:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 08:57:37 MalfermitaKodo: and here is one to play with which you can take with you (as link): http://forthfreak.net/jsforth80x25.html 08:58:07 jsforth! 08:58:18 ty, but I already installed gforth on my craptop 08:59:08 (I won't torture it with JavaScript since that would mean I'd need FF (and she has only 36 MB of RAM)) 08:59:42 Yeah, you wouldn't want FF. Wait. What? 09:00:16 My craptop is ancient... 09:00:28 And that means an FF is what? 09:00:53 FF is such a hog 09:01:01 I use epiphany, but even that is probably beyond what you want on that thing 09:01:24 Help me out. What is FF? 09:01:39 with ff3something I can type most of a url before it stops trying to make a fancy helpful popdown of what I might have been typing 09:01:40 firefox 09:01:42 Firefox 09:02:02 jsforth seems to work well 09:02:05 it's word addressed :) 09:02:26 epiphany works well with it 09:02:37 compiles even faster than firefox 09:02:54 looks like the DOM model allows a bit quicker access to iframes 09:03:06 compiles?! 09:03:12 (jsforth uses iframes to emulate blocks which care on server) 09:03:20 are 09:03:39 weird 09:04:02 you have a source based distro on your 36MB laptop? 09:04:06 try 21 load 09:04:11 that loads the disassembler 09:04:18 see 09:04:45 Think he's talking about how fast jsforth compiles. 09:05:13 in comparison to firefox 09:05:30 must be disk i/o related 09:05:39 well, block i/o 09:06:08 ahh 09:11:34 has anyone built a computer with an ech e scetch display? 09:11:48 <@JasonWoof> you have a source based distro on your 36MB laptop? <--- no, I use damnsmalllinux 09:12:07 cool 09:12:14 I did NOT want gentoo to compile on her 09:12:27 my 128MB laptop came with gentoo on it 09:12:34 coool! 09:12:53 a previous owner said he did it from stage one too 09:13:00 meaning compiled gcc and the kernel and everything 09:13:26 neatness 09:13:48 that eventually got hopelessly out of date, and I installed ubuntu 09:14:14 I might have been happier with debian, but too late 09:16:00 --- join: forther (n=forther@c-67-180-150-67.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:16:19 I seem to spend an inordinate amount of time messing with my computer after switching distros 09:16:32 I really don't have a spare week 09:16:41 and ubuntu's working pretty well 09:17:01 wish the kernel had a patch I was reading about which adds mouse deceleration 09:18:23 with the current mouse speed stuff the only way to slow the mouse speed for slow movements is to kill accelleration completely 09:18:41 I like accelleration, but I need the base mouse speed to be slower 09:31:31 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:31:57 --- quit: Quartus` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:32:18 just looking at the mouse settings .. "Dwell Click" that's somethng new .. not having seen that yet. sounds stressful .. "keep mouse moving or it will click" 09:32:51 yikes! 09:33:12 but autorepeating mouse button for double click may be useful 09:33:43 eh 09:33:55 I like holding the mouse for right-click on devices that don't have two buttons 09:34:07 like the touch screen on my n180 tablet 09:34:16 ah. 09:34:39 might have been nice on my old mac too 09:34:43 http://forthfreak.net/snap/1206722059217219032.png these settings, seen to be new with gnome 2.6.22 09:34:48 depending on how long the delay was 09:35:08 i suppose that is what ubuntu runs too 09:35:56 hmm... I think "secondary click" means right-click 09:36:16 since "primary" seems to mean left 09:36:40 i understood it as "if you keep that button pressed, it will double-click" 09:37:54 yeah, not sure why they're using that weird language 09:38:07 maybe it was translated from German or something 09:53:21 --- join: Malfermi1aKodo (n=kansu@xdsl-78-34-133-156.netcologne.de) joined #forth 10:05:14 --- quit: MalfermitaKodo (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:06:54 the gnome control panel for the mouse (last I checked) had a slider for speed, and one for acceleration. but the "speed" one did nothing. 10:08:20 --- nick: Malfermi1aKodo -> MalfermitaKodo 10:08:48 ah. "secondary" means, "alternative". not single, not double 10:09:27 an additional type of event on the same button 10:09:53 I'll bet you 3 wurphles it'll do a right-click. try it 10:10:21 look below, where actions are assigned to clicks 10:10:46 there is single click, double click, drag click and secondary click. 10:15:20 yep 10:15:33 secondary click is still right-click 10:16:16 they're just trying to be more generic about it, since on that same control panel (on the other tab) you can select "left handed-mouse" which switches the buttons 10:17:16 primary click is mouse button 1 (commonly called left-click) 10:17:24 secondary click is mouse button 2 (commonly called right-click) 10:18:54 the reason they don't say "secondary click" instead of "right-click" for button 2 is that if you select "left handed mouse" then the right mouse button is mapped as button 1 (normally left-click) 10:30:21 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p5B104319.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 10:37:15 the original smalltalk environment solved these issues nicely 10:37:57 by having red, yellow and blue buttons 10:38:08 my music is playing slow 10:38:35 think it was after watching youtube 10:39:00 how do I reset my sound card? 10:45:10 lament: how do three coloured buttons solve something three grey buttons are unable to? 10:45:23 and what issue is it they solve? 10:45:52 double click und holding down a button? 10:46:28 Bushmills: you don't need to say "left-click" and "right-click" 10:46:47 and what will left-handed people do? 10:48:12 "the function on green key had i not mapped it on blue key"? 10:48:13 in my experience... adapt to anything :) 10:49:10 or will they open the mouse, and swap the keys? 10:49:32 possibly. it's symmetrical 10:49:55 what's the advantage of calling a key "green" instead of "left" ? 10:50:10 you could open the mouse and swap the keys :) 10:50:56 if there is a red key, i see an advantage. it is one letter shorter than "left" 10:52:07 in fact, since modern mice don't come with colored buttons, you're free to put colored stickers in whichever order you want :) 10:52:19 other than that i don't really see what it solves 10:52:31 yes. so nobody knows where the green key is 10:52:43 but everybody knows where left is :) 10:53:08 not the left-handed people - the poor guys have everything switched around :) 10:53:26 imagine a program saying "press the key with the color which corresponds to your left key" hehe 10:53:48 i guess left-click right-click is way better for blind users (blind users... of a mouse? i must be on crack) 10:54:58 (note: i'm left-handed. I'm not sure why anybody would use a left-handed mouse.) 10:55:13 mouse, or mouse button mapping? 10:56:08 reversed buttom mapping makes sense only when the mouse itself is left-handed (you're using it with your left hand) 10:56:12 *button :) 10:56:30 what is a left handed mouse? mine is symmetrical. 10:56:35 a shaped one> 10:56:36 ? 10:56:47 --- quit: JasonWoof (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:56:50 it's a mouse you use with your left hand :) 10:56:59 i'm just not sure if there's any reason to prefer any hand for the mouse 10:57:04 ah. like a left handed screw driver? 10:57:08 it's not like writing, which is actually hard 10:57:33 and requires a ton of coordination 10:58:09 anybody could probably learn to use the mouse with either hand after brief training. IT's just that right-handed people start with their right hand and stick with it. 11:00:17 --- join: JasonWoof (n=JasonWoo@unaffiliated/herkamire) joined #forth 11:00:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 11:20:55 Bushmills: did you write jsforth? 11:25:24 JasonWoof: yes 11:26:02 very cool 11:26:10 thank you 11:26:18 indeed, very cool! 11:27:22 was the first (and only) thing i ever wrote in javascript :) 11:27:38 heh 11:27:38 http://forthfreak.net/jsforth.js source 11:27:50 was it you doing bashforth too? 11:27:54 yes 11:28:10 how'd that go? 11:28:26 compiled after two days (i.e. colon defs) 11:28:38 and then it was just refinement 11:29:30 when i did that, i knew bash. contrary to the javascript version, with which i learned some js with. 11:29:50 so the bash thing was easier. 11:30:24 i/o also less of an issue - didn't have to implement a terminal for it. 11:31:32 otoh the js version is more complete. bashforth doesn't attempt to stick to any standard. just .. common forth ... where against jsforth tries to stick to DPANS 11:31:56 here's a funny thing with jsforth: 11:31:59 1 33 << . 11:31:59 2 ok 11:32:03 http://wiki.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?ForthCoreWords 11:32:46 yes. 33 anded with 32 11:32:54 ehm. 11:32:58 with 2^32-1 11:33:39 see << says this: tos = s[sp--] << tos; 11:34:13 you mean with 31. 11:34:15 internally, any number is a float. 11:34:48 there are situations where i have to force them to bahave like integers 11:35:00 which i do by anding with 2^32-1 11:35:23 bit operations are among those 11:35:25 right, but that has nothing to do with it 11:36:32 (2^33) & (2^32-) does not equal 2 11:36:36 it's zero 11:36:48 (2^33) & (2^32 - 1) does not equal 2 11:37:29 only way I can see getting 2 as an answer is if you're fiddling with the operand before 11:37:44 ie taking 33 and making it into 1, either with mod or by anding it with 31 11:38:18 : << 31 & lshift ; 11:38:47 but true, << does not limit to 32 bit range 11:39:07 I did: 1 33 << . 11:39:12 got: 2 ok 11:39:51 I shouldn't get 2, I should get 2^33 or 0 11:40:15 I'm just curious why it does this 11:40:22 1 33 << looks like 1 $ffffffff and << 11:40:27 from SEE it looks like this is how javascript handles shifts 11:40:28 try 1 34 << 11:40:52 1 33 $ffffffff and << i mean 11:40:53 4 ok 11:41:18 why do you keep talking about $ffffffff? 11:41:21 it's obviously 31 11:41:56 yes 11:42:01 33 $fffffff and . 11:42:03 33 ok 11:42:06 because i'm only half focused :) 11:42:16 wake up man! 11:42:26 now when I SEE << 11:42:33 it doesn't show any of this 11:42:42 javascript << looks like a rotate 11:42:49 it's not 11:43:02 that was my first though 11:43:26 12345 16 << 16 << . 11:43:26 0 ok 11:44:40 alternative explanation, javascript ands shift count with 31 11:45:21 seems that way, at least the js in epiphany 11:46:29 " An ambiguous condition exists if u is greater than or equal to the number of bits in a cell." 11:46:50 http://www.forthfreak.net/dpans/dpans6.htm#6.1.1805 11:47:08 yeah, it's really not a problem 11:47:13 I was just curious 12:23:04 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-911de5c0f7f31722) joined #forth 12:26:17 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 12:26:56 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-83cd9d8c76f93012) joined #forth 12:53:12 --- join: Quartus` (n=Quartus`@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 13:11:06 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 13:11:38 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-3253978745e1e0b3) joined #forth 13:26:38 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 13:26:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 14:04:22 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 14:20:32 --- quit: Crest ("This computer has gone to sleep") 14:38:24 --- join: Mikoangelo (n=Mikael@0x3e42d364.adsl.cybercity.dk) joined #forth 14:47:39 --- quit: JasonWoof ("Leaving.") 14:48:54 good morning, people 14:49:15 good morning, Mikuju! :> 14:50:21 How are all you good Forthians doing today? 14:57:15 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 15:36:22 --- quit: HyperDimensions (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:36:29 --- join: HyperDimensions (n=me@c-69-139-118-23.hsd1.ky.comcast.net) joined #forth 15:44:01 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-088-068-219-232.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 15:51:37 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 15:51:50 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-098-227.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 15:55:49 Hi. 15:58:46 --- quit: snoopy_1711 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 16:00:20 Hi 16:08:09 Hi 16:10:45 Hi 16:22:47 --- quit: Maki ("Leaving") 16:42:03 bah... I feel remindedn of a quote from a cynic's site: Optimization means to change a program that runs slowly so it won't run at all :( 16:55:00 As someone once told me for unspecified reasons: That's because you're doing it wrong! 16:56:04 it works now 16:56:12 reminded of it by...? 16:56:13 and yes, I HAD to rewrite it 16:56:37 Quartus`: by my attempts to replace some evil code 17:06:09 hi all 17:06:12 * slava has a new laptop 17:07:23 great! what kind of laptop? 17:07:39 macbook pro 17:08:24 * MalfermitaKodo resists urge to start discussion about OS choice... 17:08:43 MalfermitaKodo: Mac OS X is not the enemy! 17:10:42 don't tempt me 17:18:37 --- join: ecraven (n=nex@plc9-214.linzag.net) joined #forth 17:36:22 Hi slava. 17:37:23 MalfermitaKodo: i write code for lots of different OSes 17:42:04 ah k... 17:44:35 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 18:04:51 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 18:39:29 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 18:41:38 --- quit: Quartus () 19:44:40 --- quit: forther ("Leaving") 19:49:15 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 19:49:15 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 20:20:35 --- join: Al2O3_ (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:28:12 --- quit: Al2O3 (Connection timed out) 20:34:00 --- join: magnusj (n=magnus@pool-71-175-138-222.phlapa.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 20:34:09 --- quit: proteusguy (Connection timed out) 20:34:41 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@ppp-124-120-225-139.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 20:40:39 --- join: JasonWoof (n=JasonWoo@unaffiliated/herkamire) joined #forth 20:40:39 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 21:19:21 --- quit: JasonWoof ("Leaving.") 21:57:17 --- join: Malfermi1aKodo (n=kansu@xdsl-78-34-130-232.netcologne.de) joined #forth 22:09:03 --- quit: MalfermitaKodo (Connection timed out) 22:34:06 --- join: edrx (i=edrx@189.25.62.238) joined #forth 23:31:48 --- quit: Quartus` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:52:35 --- quit: Fractal ("[BX] It's a huge shit sandwich and we're all gonna have to take a bite.") 23:59:37 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-089aee75d1546ec4) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/08.03.28