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00:15:30 <Bushmills> is an object system without inheritance an object system?
00:16:29 <slava> yes
00:17:10 <Bushmills> i thought that inheritance, encapsulation and polymorphism was what characterised an OO system
00:17:24 <slava> an OO system is something that allows you to write OO code
00:17:43 <slava> the c++/java implementation is just one possibility
00:17:51 <slava> common lisp's object system is quite different for example
00:17:53 <slava> so is factor's
00:19:10 <Bushmills> the given characterisation applies to c++ and java . it includes iheritance.
00:19:17 <Bushmills> in
00:19:41 <slava> factor already had other features (mixins and delegation) which can achieve the same ends as implementation iheritance
00:19:53 <slava> i'm removing delegation because someone wrote a better implementation as a library
00:19:55 <Bushmills> but a system to which inheritance need to be added obviously doesn't have inheritance
00:19:57 <slava> and adding inheritance in its place
00:21:18 <Bushmills> ah. you make an OO system from it now :)
00:21:48 <slava> i already had what is called 'interface inheritance'
00:23:36 <slava> to me the most important part of OO is polymorphism
00:28:32 <Bushmills> not sure whether class methods, and messages to objects (maybe call them "triggers" in this context as "message" is more ambiguous, i think) should be counted too, or whether they should be attributed to encapsulation.
00:29:38 <slava> neither factor nor clos have class methods or messages to objects. they use generic functions instead
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00:30:47 <Bushmills> no encapsulation?
00:31:00 <slava> encapsulation is achieved through a module system.
00:31:13 <slava> if you want to make certain symbols private, your module doesn't export them.
00:31:23 <slava> whether they are data types, functions, or something else.
00:31:34 <Bushmills> if there is, i suppose you can call the applicable generic functions methods.
00:31:48 <slava> a generic function contains methods.
00:32:05 <Bushmills> if they can be used on any object, without the class specifying them, i'd say there is no encapsulation
00:32:07 <slava> each method provides a definition of the generic function specialized to a certain class.
00:32:27 <slava> eg, i can have an 'area' generic function with methods for 'rectangle', 'circle', 'triangle', etc.
00:33:13 <Bushmills> but both, "using encapsulation and "can use generic functions on objects without class specifying them" strikes me as contradiction.
00:33:23 <slava> are you familiar with clos?
00:33:32 <Bushmills> not terribly
00:33:36 <slava> so 'not at all'? :)
00:34:30 <Bushmills> just the base characteristics
00:34:46 <Bushmills> that it supports muiltiple inheritance,
00:34:53 <slava> so 'not at all'. anyway, if you want to encapsulate, you can make internals not be exported from your module.
00:34:59 <slava> that way people only access your objects through a public interface
00:35:04 <slava> so really its orthogonal to whether you have message sends or not
00:35:06 <Bushmills> no forced encap[sulation
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06:04:50 <JasonWoof> is there some way I can make an ssh connection resumable?
06:05:13 <Bushmills> JasonWoof: use screen on server side
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06:05:23 <Bushmills> also, openvpn helps, i
06:05:31 <JasonWoof> last time I tried to do a very large rsync backup, the connection timed out while my local machine was creating a file list
06:05:50 <JasonWoof> no, not resume the terminal session, resume the connection
06:06:17 <Bushmills> JasonWoof: i use openvpn, because of periodic dsl reconnects, with ip address changes. the interrupted ssh connection simply picks up where it was
06:06:27 <Bushmills> it only pauses during the reconnect
06:06:29 <JasonWoof> coool
06:06:41 <JasonWoof> always wondered what a vpn was 
06:06:53 <Bushmills> also chat clients and such, connection to jabber server, will not notice the reconnecty
06:06:56 <Bushmills> ect
06:07:07 <JasonWoof> sweeeet
06:07:15 <Bushmills> for them it looks like a temporary network digestion
06:07:26 <Bushmills> but continues as nothing happened then
06:07:57 <JasonWoof> no idea how this works :)
06:07:59 <Bushmills> VPN = virtual private network. a tunneled connection
06:08:27 <Bushmills> both machines get a new virtual interface, with ip addresses you assign ..
06:08:44 <Bushmills> and traffic between them is routed through this virtual interface
06:08:55 <Bushmills> for them, it looks like they're sitting on the same network
06:09:24 <Bushmills> for example, my local VPN interface has 10.86.80.6, the server has 10.86.80.1
06:09:38 <Bushmills> but there are 1000 km between them
06:09:42 <JasonWoof> ok, that makes sense to me between me and my server (and sounds _perfect_) but how does that help you with jabber?
06:09:51 <JasonWoof> does your jabber server run vpn you can access?
06:09:59 <Bushmills> oh, i run a jabber server on that server. and connect to it from the client.
06:10:06 <JasonWoof> sweet
06:10:17 <Bushmills> and an irc bouncer
06:10:24 <JasonWoof> is the jabber server easy to administer?
06:10:28 <Bushmills> yes
06:10:38 <Bushmills> web frontend 
06:10:52 <Bushmills> hardly anything to do
06:10:57 <JasonWoof> cool
06:11:08 <Bushmills> also running a web client at  http://verhau.de 
06:11:16 <Bushmills> the servers in the list are all the same machine.
06:11:19 <JasonWoof> I would like to change jabber addresses
06:11:25 <Bushmills> jsut "virtual" jabber domains
06:11:27 <Bushmills> just
06:12:38 <JasonWoof> woh, another thing that would be amazing...
06:12:58 <JasonWoof> so when my laptop is firewalled, can vpn allow me to make ssh connections from my server to my laptop?
06:13:13 <Bushmills> means also one can run "sensitive" services on the server, which can easily be blocked for public, and ALLOW only on VPN ip address.
06:13:20 <Bushmills> yes, that too
06:13:26 <JasonWoof> sweeeeet
06:13:36 <Bushmills> no matter where you connect
06:13:52 <JasonWoof> god bless you sir
06:13:54 <Bushmills> as the vpn machines will/can have their own static ip addresses
06:14:12 <Bushmills> plus, all traffic goes through one single port.
06:14:38 <Bushmills> so no big issue with firewalls, masquerading routers and such
06:14:55 <JasonWoof> because my laptop will initiate the connection from wherever it is
06:15:19 <Bushmills> it will just look as it sits on the same switch as the other VPN machines
06:15:41 <Bushmills> one single hop, with traceroute ...
06:16:09 <JasonWoof> :)
06:17:09 <Bushmills> in fact, being able to connect easily to machines abroad, which are abroad, online through an unknown connection, is another use for it
06:18:28 <JasonWoof> just need some sort of always-online hub?
06:18:53 <Bushmills> yes, that would be good. after all, the clients want to know where to connect to
06:19:53 <JasonWoof> this is so cool
06:20:28 <JasonWoof> I used to have a fairly static IP at home and complete control of our router/firewall
06:20:33 <JasonWoof> but no longer
07:00:39 <Bushmills> i suppose, using a dynamic name service, like dyndns, to locate the server, for connecting to it, would work too
07:00:56 <Bushmills> never tried that, as i'm connecting to a static ip address
07:01:15 <JasonWoof> oh, my server's always had a static IP
07:01:49 <JasonWoof> I like being able to access the files on my home computer when I'm on the road
07:02:17 <JasonWoof> now that I don't have access to the firewall settings at home, this is tricky, but it seems VPN can hook me up
07:03:26 <Bushmills> your client still needs to find the server , of course. that's where dyndns can help.  once connected, it will use the internal address, usually an RFC1918 address is used to assign to vpn server and clients.
07:03:42 <Bushmills> the server can 'push" routes to the client
07:04:02 <Bushmills> telling it for what networks or ip addresses to route through the vpn server
07:05:24 <JasonWoof> my server has a static ip address, so I don't need dyndns correct?
07:05:37 <Bushmills> that is correct
07:05:51 <Bushmills> it is only so that vpn clients can find the server
07:05:54 <Bushmills> one way or the other
07:06:16 <Bushmills> if you set up openvpn, don't bother with a bridged configuration.
07:06:25 <Bushmills> use peer to peer, and push routes instead.
07:06:45 <Bushmills> gives you the same, but easier setup
07:06:49 <JasonWoof> I'm going through the quickstart thing
07:06:57 <JasonWoof> reasons for bridging didn't apply tome at all
07:07:12 <JasonWoof> s/tome/to me/
07:07:31 <Bushmills> yes. some peope think that bridging is needed to allow clients to see each other
07:07:39 <Bushmills> and p2p doesn't do that.
07:07:43 <Bushmills> but that's not right
07:09:08 <Bushmills> there are more interesting ways to use it. solutions for common problems
07:09:46 <Bushmills> for example, i don;'t need to configure smtp auth tell the smtp server who may relay mail
07:10:04 <Bushmills> i simple told the smtp server that the vpn network is "mynetwork" too
07:10:42 <Bushmills> or, with servers which require a static address (firewall) to log in ...
07:11:11 <JasonWoof> fancy
07:11:13 <Bushmills> i let the server push a route to my clients to that host. now when i connect, the connection comes on from the vpn server
07:11:45 <Bushmills> i always hated the effort of setting up smtp auth ...
07:12:00 <Bushmills> now vpn is a dead simple solution for that problem.
07:12:59 <Bushmills> i also automount server exports with nfs. over internet :)
07:13:28 <Bushmills> and, the other way around too. a specific web virtual host automounts a public dir on my desktop.
07:13:39 <Bushmills> so that one has a public web address.
07:13:40 <JasonWoof> hehe
07:13:57 <Bushmills> lots of creative things possible with vpn
07:15:03 <Bushmills> especially with services one doesn't want to let loose on public internet.
07:15:13 <JasonWoof> why do you use nfs instead of mod_proxy?
07:15:27 <Bushmills> firewall
07:15:33 <Bushmills> my desktop is behind a router
07:15:47 <Bushmills> but openvpn is allowed through. therefore nfs
07:15:50 <Bushmills> but not web
07:16:02 <JasonWoof> nfs can go through openvpn but not mod_proxy?
07:16:34 <Bushmills> ah. yes it could go through it too when using the vpn ip address/hostname.
07:16:39 <JasonWoof> you could put your home computer at 10.8.8.2
07:16:51 <JasonWoof> on the server: ProxyPass 10.8.8.2
07:16:52 <Bushmills> just thought of using its public name. the DSL ip address. that one is blocked
07:17:07 <JasonWoof> right
07:17:14 <Bushmills> yes. but the nfs mount is used for other things, not just web forwarding.
07:17:47 <JasonWoof> advantage (or perhaps disadvantage depending on how you're using it) of proxypass is that it runs dynamic content on your home computer
07:18:10 <Bushmills> result: just a simple symlink (haven't even set up a virtual host for it, using a server one i had before, just symlinked the dir to a different location
07:18:46 <JasonWoof> nift
07:18:47 <JasonWoof> y
07:19:10 <JasonWoof> I make a lot of dynamic sites (php+mysql) and develop locally (on my laptop)
07:19:18 <JasonWoof> occationally it'd be handy to give my client access
07:19:33 <Bushmills> there could be still another reason, which doesn't apply here:
07:19:39 <Bushmills> with nfs, no local web server needed
07:19:56 <JasonWoof> right, thought you might have done that on purpose
07:20:06 <JasonWoof> I need one anyway, and would prefer that it  be used
07:20:19 <JasonWoof> my local database and local php scripts match up
07:20:34 <JasonWoof> wouldn't want the local copy of my php running on the server's database
07:20:52 <JasonWoof> sounds like you've got a different situation
07:21:11 <Bushmills> well, not "on purpose" in the sense to avoid web server to web server. more in the sense of reusing what has been enabled anyway
07:21:40 <JasonWoof> convenience :)
07:21:50 <JasonWoof> to me setting up nfs sounds incenvenient
07:22:10 <Bushmills> and the option to turn off local webserver, for maintenance, config, whatever.
07:22:16 <JasonWoof> otoh setting up proxypass is almost just a copy-and-paste for me
07:22:22 <Bushmills> without affecting remote operation
07:23:21 <Bushmills> yeah. i use that with some disk- and cpu intense sites, which have been moved around a bit, to another servers
07:24:49 <Bushmills> including when the forthfreak site changed server and i wasn't up yet for a DNS record change.
07:25:20 <Bushmills> (may have needed to revert to previous server quickly, not having clients wait the TTL DNS record period)
07:25:48 <JasonWoof> wait, do I know you?
07:25:55 <Bushmills> i think so
07:26:06 <JasonWoof> what's your usual/old nick?
07:26:26 <Bushmills> you know rance muhamitz, from 200 motels>?
07:26:43 <JasonWoof> no
07:26:51 <Bushmills> when we was asked "who the hell do you think you are, you motherfucking son of a bitch"
07:27:06 <Bushmills> when he answered in a soft voice "i am known by many names"
07:27:08 <Bushmills> :)
07:27:38 <Bushmills> well, in there he wanted musicians to sign the contract with blood. gave them a needle instead of a pen
07:27:48 <Bushmills> to prick their finger with it
07:27:57 <JasonWoof> gross
07:28:16 <JasonWoof> can't remember who started forthfreak
07:28:39 <Bushmills> well, jimmy carl black then said "you aren't the devil, you can take your needle and stick it into your ass"
07:28:48 <Bushmills> and does that himself to rance muhamitz
07:28:56 <Bushmills> at that moment, hell burst open :)
07:29:19 <JasonWoof> ok, remind me  not to see that movie
07:29:50 <JasonWoof> so you're arke? futhin?
07:29:51 <Bushmills> well. devil appears later again, as a cartoon character with the size of a fly.
07:29:53 <Bushmills> lol
07:30:01 <Bushmills> you may know me as Speuler
07:30:06 <JasonWoof> ahh, thanks
07:30:15 <Bushmills> or onemanarmy ?
07:30:22 <JasonWoof> Speuler
07:42:01 <JasonWoof> ok, so I set up my laptop, and my tablet with openvpn on different subnets (say 10.66.66.2 and 10.37.37.2)
07:42:27 <JasonWoof> and on thursday I've got them both connected to the same local NATed, firewalled network
07:42:42 <JasonWoof> and I scp a file accross, using vpn
07:42:59 <JasonWoof> what are the chances that the file will go directly, without going through my server?
07:46:58 <Bushmills> ah. pretty slim
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08:44:41 <JasonWoof> sweeet, vpn setup
09:10:04 <JasonWoof> and on my tablet too :)
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09:30:51 <Bushmills> of course you could set up the laptop as server, so that tablet can connect to it, around the machine which would otherwise be the server
09:31:37 <Bushmills> but that still means, tablet must be able to find an connect to laptop
09:33:06 <JasonWoof> right
09:33:18 <JasonWoof> and once the tablet finds the laptop, I'm all set
09:39:34 <JasonWoof> man, ssh is a really nice program
09:39:47 <JasonWoof> just set up my keys
09:39:51 <JasonWoof> authorized_keys
09:39:55 <JasonWoof> and more in my .ssh/config
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