00:00:00 --- log: started forth/08.03.24 00:32:56 --- part: kardinal left #forth 00:33:13 --- join: kardinal (n=kvirc@e180187079.adsl.alicedsl.de) joined #forth 00:33:36 --- quit: kardinal ("KVIrc 3.2.4 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/") 00:34:48 --- join: kardinal (n=kvirc@e180187079.adsl.alicedsl.de) joined #forth 01:41:44 --- quit: kardinal ("KVIrc 3.2.4 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/") 01:43:16 --- join: kardinal (n=kvirc@e180187079.adsl.alicedsl.de) joined #forth 01:46:42 --- quit: kardinal (Client Quit) 01:48:04 --- join: kardinal (n=kvirc@e180187079.adsl.alicedsl.de) joined #forth 02:10:56 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-02a07bd61aef6afd) joined #forth 02:35:13 --- quit: nighty^ (Client Quit) 02:46:59 --- quit: Al2O3 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:00:35 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 03:31:02 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 03:44:09 --- join: Maki (n=veselic@adsl-202-95.eunet.yu) joined #forth 03:46:19 Hi, I have implemented a word d*mod for modular multiplication such that 03:46:19 a b m d*mod gives (a*b)mod(m) 03:46:19 where a, b, and m are double cell (giving a double cell as result) 03:46:19 it works.... just wondering if somebody already implemented a similar word 03:51:27 This is a natral expression in a language like forth. This would appear as a word or an expression, most likely depending on the number of times used. When I find that I've created this expression over and over in code, I would give it a word and factor. This would mean coming up with a name, and I might choose 'contain' off the top of my head. This, I believe is the way forthers think. 03:57:22 Using a name to represent an action is prime symbolism needed to create concepts that the mind can use as shortcuts to abstraction. 03:58:01 Black box thinking. 04:03:08 Hi Ray. 04:03:33 Hello, Maki. How are you this morn. :) 04:03:51 Very well :) 04:04:11 Good. Got plans? 04:04:41 Yeah in making cross compiler 04:04:58 Oh cool. From what machine to what? 04:05:19 Win32Forth to my processor 04:05:20 I've never done one. I've always used others. 04:05:30 Ya. cool. 04:05:35 Win32Forth is cool. 04:05:45 Large word base. 04:06:06 Using win so you know 04:06:08 I liked the editor and how it's matured over the years. 04:06:18 Ya, I use win quite a bit. 04:06:18 not using it 04:06:35 Have you tried Jedit? 04:06:46 I don't use it either lol, I use Programmers File Editor for like 15 years now... :) 04:07:10 No not Jedit, tho I know it's been around a long time and people use it. 04:07:34 maki goes to see what is PFE 04:08:12 I can get PFE to do everything i've ever tried and a bonus is it acts like a real command line with output capture for WIN32 machines since 3.11 04:08:46 Well, that was PFE16bit :) 04:08:57 bnow it's PFE32. 04:09:04 did you find one? 04:09:52 I see. Any sytax coloring and code folding? 04:11:24 This command line, can you redirect it some how to serial port? 04:11:29 No, not really. Hasn't been updated or upgraded for many many years, and I like it for the stability. It's well executed other wise. You CAN set it for language recognition and I suppose there are ways to get the syntax colored, and I suppose simple macros could do the foldning but I've never needed or attempted such. 04:11:37 Checking. 04:13:36 can you do such a thing a dos prompt anyway? 04:13:42 if so you can with pfe. 04:14:16 Not sure. I'm not expert in dos scripting 04:14:27 see if I can find out... :) 04:15:02 I always liked the idea of editor with command line 04:15:23 i am working on an editor with built-in forth command line. 04:15:34 i.e. can type forth commands right into the edit buffer 04:15:52 me likee 04:16:07 http://efte.sourceforge.net 04:16:25 maki goes to see 04:17:05 no mode switch needed. "interpreter" is simply bound to another key, an alternative enter. 04:17:12 and interpreter itself is a script too 04:17:27 it's "query" reads input from cursor line 04:18:12 and https://sourceforge.net/projects/efte/ 04:18:27 if you look at it, don't go for 0.95 or 0.96 04:18:46 svn is the recent, lots of changes since 0.96 04:19:48 found it. Firs link is strange :( 04:20:08 Neat. :) 04:20:21 I'me checking it out next. 04:20:51 edit buffer makes decent terminal :) 04:21:05 Just found that the Command command for the command line in win32 xp doesn't have a word that is used to go comm over the serial ports. 04:21:44 with query not actually waiting for keys itself, but using the editor, the whole editor remains available also in forth "mode" (which isn't an mode in its own) 04:21:59 I would assume that one could use a batch called from the command line of pfe ( totaly doable ) then "Start" a program that did in windows. 04:22:48 I did something like that. And used Win API to talk to serial 04:22:57 you can redirect output of program to serial in dos. i iirc, con: was the name of the output device 04:23:05 a key combo could run a macro that sets all this up, executes it, and then if it still has reach you can use this interface or more likely switch to the interface of the desired program. 04:23:21 I don't think it's still there, but checking... 04:23:28 input may be a tad trickier. even though you can redirect, but there was something strange about reading from serial in dos, i forgot what 04:23:51 ya, it's gone. or not under 'con' any more. checking web sources... 04:25:02 oh yeah "copy con new.bat" could rightline like a file from the command line. and type new.bat would type it with out editor to the consol. 04:25:09 >Bushmills Any precompiled sources for Win? 04:25:30 http://efte.cowgar.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl alternative for the first link 04:25:39 maki, yes, but not recent ones. 04:26:03 but i think we'll put a more recent win package online again soon 04:26:13 ok 04:26:16 been in a freeze and bugfix phase for some time now 04:27:36 >Ray But You can't redirect it to serial? 04:28:29 I mean without special prog. 04:32:09 >Bushmills can I build efte under Ubuntu? 04:33:03 sure 04:33:19 runs under X nicely 04:33:48 trying to download 04:34:01 no luck 04:34:06 trying mirir 04:35:16 svn co https://efte.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/efte/trunk efte 04:36:21 after that, to sync with last sources, it is just, cd efte ; svn up 04:41:17 sorry phone... 04:41:55 I have found a lot od source files in my browser. What to do now? Panic! 04:42:52 I'm Ubuntu beginner so I don't know what you mean by cd efte ; svn up 04:43:40 Anyway I have tried to download from all sources with no luck 04:44:12 Only last site gives sources. 04:44:41 Dont know how to download them all at onec with directories... 04:44:49 *once 04:44:52 i gave you a command to get them all 04:44:58 svn co https://efte.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/efte/trunk efte 04:45:23 I'm now in win 04:45:28 you don't really want to download all files one by one 04:45:35 :) 04:46:00 I have to reboot. 04:46:17 I'll try it later. 05:02:21 Maki, I'm still looking up how to program the required chips involved. ended up in a wikibook ... 05:02:45 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Serial_Programming:8250_UART_Programming 05:02:54 This would be all new to me. 05:03:36 BUT it's stuff I desparately need to know to run colorForth hobby projects that communicate with other external devices 05:04:10 My friends can do it, but I've never been exposed to this until I read their code. 05:04:28 Raystm2: serial port programming is not too difficult. 05:04:42 Seems as you say. 05:04:47 setting the line parameters and bitrate is probably the most involved 05:04:53 just need to know the 'stuff' :) 05:04:58 ya. 05:05:09 and the words that describe the stuff. 05:05:17 after that, it depends whether your input needs interrupt support, or whether you can do by polling. 05:05:34 Cool. 05:05:37 polling may lose characters if you're too slow. interrupts are more involved setting up in code. 05:06:09 the UART shows in a bit flag when it has a character availabe, and you just read it from the port. 05:06:23 We have colorforth interupts and we have all of the serial / parallel / and USB and ethernet drivers . 05:06:58 so if you have them .. why do you need to code them? 05:08:22 8250 is on most later hardware replaces against a 16x5x which has an on-chip fifo. 05:08:34 16 deep. 8250 hasn't 05:08:44 I don't need to code them per se. they are coded for me already. At this low level one needs to know how to exectute the code properly, and how to go from driver to driver when transfering data, and how to unencode certain encodings of data. 05:09:56 so with the 8250 your code needs to pick chars up when they become available, before the next one is complete, or your line flow control will signal "can't receive". with the 16xxx devices, you have some slack because the chip can store 16 chars. 05:10:20 makes sence ;) 05:10:33 make sure that you really have a 8250, because you may be missing desirable features if you have the 16xxx 05:11:06 I'm sure this machine contains the 16xxx variety. 05:11:37 either that or it contains software in windows to treat the chip as if it were??? 05:11:43 yeah, i'd expect so. has been in wide use as replacement for at least 15 years 05:11:46 That just may be. 05:12:29 running a 8086 or 80286? 05:12:41 post-286 is probably 16xxx 05:12:59 oh. windows. :) no 8086 ... 05:13:04 one machine = pentium 1 other in the chain will be pentium 4. 05:13:27 but this will be all in colorforth with out benefit of OS. 05:13:55 chip remains the same. use the 16xxx datasheet, not the 8250 then. 05:14:06 I'll try to learn how to do some cross compilation stuff. 05:14:25 Yes, will do. thank you much for that advice, it will serve me well. Much appreciated. 05:14:33 yw 05:15:48 It's always been my dream to have some obscure language that me and a few others could run on ( ANY in the dream ) machines with out benefit of OS and do just about anything any os could do. Then I nearly woke up. 05:16:25 and then you'll be coding a chess board for it 05:17:52 lol indeed. 05:17:58 Which colorforth system are you using 05:18:02 all. 05:18:05 well. not all 05:18:13 those machines exist btw. different flavours. from micro controllers to work stations. 05:18:15 I've not used the sourceforge stuff yet. 05:18:47 the one laptop per child should be able to boot into forth too, wihtout booting into linux. 05:19:01 Any project with those connected machines in mind? 05:19:20 there is forth on board, after all 05:19:41 indeed, and it can. only problem a forth project is going to have is ring 0 access in the kernel. Such can be overridded with a free code, but this code does not ship with the product and has to be specifically asked for. 05:20:11 ehm ... forth is on board before linux has been loaded 05:20:23 shouldn't need linux at all 05:20:42 there are protections . 05:21:06 I'm told there are protections from Mitch Bradley, of the project. 05:21:12 i suppose it is just a key combination to press during boot 05:21:30 He's over at #olpc and #sugar. 05:21:33 indeed. 05:21:50 This could be different for every machine if they want to be assess about it. 05:22:03 like alt-apple-F, or stop-a on PPC apples, and sun workstations. 05:22:28 i like sun in that respect .. no boot required. 05:22:29 I would assume this will be the exact way it will pan out, just as you have it. 05:22:38 it just pops up a forth window 05:23:11 apples you'd need to reboot for them to listen to that key combination 05:23:37 but probably a stand alone AVR Forth is much more educative 05:23:41 and portable too 05:24:52 found that one recently for avr: http://wiki.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?amforth 05:25:54 there are several avr forthes. but this one seems to be the most assembly+forth one as far. haven't looked at all of them though. 05:27:07 plus it has been updated several times in the last few months. means it isn't fossilized. 05:29:04 Have you looked at flashForth for PICs? My friend says it works fine. Updated recently... 05:31:09 no, haven't 05:31:25 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-d6e1e7abc658b6b8) joined #forth 05:32:31 That harward architecture isn fit for forth... 05:33:01 But anyway forth is what you make of it :) 05:36:14 Make I. 05:36:54 there is no need to mingle data with code. not even with forth 05:37:11 I would like to see the worlds first anticipatory software helper. Once started it would anticipate your every need and desire and that would be probl'y boring :) 05:37:26 you can keep address lists (high level words seperate from primitives 05:37:46 missing a ) behind "words" 05:38:29 oh I see. 05:38:54 ya some sort of "this is deeper" symbol appended as a program standard. 05:39:08 O 05:39:36 I've see 'chars, called tick characaters. 05:40:25 you can even code the interpreter to recognize some of these symbols and do some prep work before true usage of the word. 05:43:46 In FlashForth one has to select type of memory for words like: here , while in amForth some words work with data, others with code. 05:44:51 I'm not sure that you can make that distinction go away 05:46:41 Maybe with ARM7 processors. These can execute from on chip RAM. And new words are added to RAM but kernel is in Flash... 05:47:09 Raystm2: you're durch? 05:47:12 dutch 05:47:49 ah, sry no 06:00:11 Raystm2: an editor, which, say, completes started flow control structures, by typing out the rest of the flow control statement when you started one .. that's something what you could call "anticipatory". but those things are not too popular, probably because too distracting, taking the programmers thoughts of his task, while needing to check whether the computer "anticipated" correctly. also, the sudden screen activity does distract. 06:01:42 so however an "anticipatory" system would work - it should not distract. while at the same time, allow to check, immediately. sort of difficult to bring these demands together. 06:04:45 the mentioned editor i am coding for has autoindenting/undenting for flow control structures and high level words. it aligns if with else with endif, until while repeat again with begin, loop with do, and such, indents the lines between one level,. even that is a bit .. distracting. i think most sudden screen activity is. 06:08:37 we are talking about a machine that can measure every part of you millions of times a secong. 06:08:41 -g+d 06:09:18 I suppose distraction is what it will do best. 06:09:41 When you want something it can not provide right away, you must be immediatly distracted to wait out the wait time. 06:10:51 Distractions can be anything and if you are programming, indeed you would be distracted from the distraction if the program distracts you, which it will not as far as you can tell. 06:11:25 Might even make the problem a bit harder to find till it needs you to find it. 06:14:33 ah. in that respect, anticipatory programming exists. it is called "software industry" 06:14:58 :) 06:15:01 I get that. 06:15:13 maybe not as intimately as you... 06:15:39 but we have such stuff in basic business operations. It's all like a program when it's executed well. 06:15:54 Triggers, is the term I use. 06:16:08 I'm not really a programmer I just play one on the web. 06:17:47 trigger mechs can be reciept of delivery triggers pop purchase order triggers adjust inventory levels, triggers print all possible parcial and completed delievers requireing recieved parts, which triggers production and ship scheduleing ... 06:18:20 big old circular whoorlpool like stack. 06:18:45 Depending on your focus. 06:19:26 --- join: Alpha98 (n=Alpha@cm167064.red91-116.mundo-r.com) joined #forth 06:19:27 I mean that the vortex is dependant on your view point as everyone sees everything dumped on them. 06:20:58 Alpha98, it would be nice to tell what the channel you're inviting to is all about before inviting. 06:21:37 shhhh! I didn't invite Raystm2, okay dude! :0 06:21:39 :) 06:22:10 --- part: Alpha98 left #forth 06:23:15 oh yeah /me = not Dutch, but I did find out that there is Scot in my background, as well as already knowing about the Spanish Irish and Canadian French. 06:24:20 I'm a mutt and my children are worse adding German and Swedish to the mix. We are well rounded European-Americans with out a slave holder in the bunch as far as i can tell. :) 06:24:26 me happen to sit in ireland now 06:24:31 Neat. 06:24:42 never mind the whois info. that's an irc bouncer 06:24:50 I'd love to join you for a round at the local. 06:24:56 lol :) 06:25:21 ah. didn;t know it was you 06:25:56 i simply deny all join invitations for which no clue what it is about is given 06:26:31 not me 06:26:40 I didn't invite anyone anywhere. 06:26:50 I was telling the truth that i didnt' get an invite. 06:27:13 I'm with you. I've followed IRC links to my dismay before. 06:27:29 ONLY virus I can remember getting was from IRC. 06:32:32 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@p5187-adsau17honb13-acca.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) joined #forth 06:46:18 --- nick: Raystm2 -> CosmicRaYs 06:46:55 --- nick: CosmicRaYs -> Raystm2 07:21:54 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:22:43 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@ppp-124-120-231-146.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 07:25:50 yaay. copyfs - versioning virtual file system. all files written there are implicitely put under version control. no explicite checking in. 07:26:04 sounds great for sources 07:38:27 I don't know. I do wish that I'd get used to useing some versioning system when I write stuff, instead of making corrections. 07:43:18 --- join: arke_ (n=arke@p57A77287.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 08:00:25 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:01:18 for local files, i still use RCS. very simple checkin operation, no setting up of repository or such. 08:01:57 svn is what i use on networks mostly atm. 08:02:53 but both require the checking in as an explicit step. 08:03:51 for single user, RCS beats the others for simplicity, i guess. 08:04:52 can be as simple as ci -l yourfile 08:07:06 but not sure how a VCS can be used instead of making corrections. having previous versions doesn't mean that suddenly your bugs mystically disappear 08:46:37 --- quit: Al2O3 (Connection timed out) 08:47:12 just playing with in-document scripts. i can, on a line in the middle of any document, enter : rep character repeat$ type$ ; and press alt-grey enter, upon which this definition is removed from line (but compiled). cursor sits at begin of line again, where i can enter 72 rep = (alt-grey enter) which again replaces input from that line against 72 = now. looks pretty flashy, doing this whilst editing the doc. 08:48:24 (the $ comes from, a string stack has been provided for common string operations, those have by naming convention a $ appended.) 09:14:06 --- nick: malyn -> malyn_ 09:14:35 --- nick: malyn_ -> malyn 09:31:06 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:18:39 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 10:18:47 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 10:30:30 --- quit: tgunr () 11:01:19 --- join: tgunr (n=davec@70-41-248-186.cust.wildblue.net) joined #forth 11:27:12 --- quit: TreyB_ ("leaving") 11:27:18 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@74.203.168.157) joined #forth 11:38:57 --- join: GoNoGo (n=GoNoGo@cro34-3-82-236-93-215.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 12:30:45 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 12:30:45 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 12:38:06 wb Q :) 12:38:19 Hi. 12:38:31 Hope you are well. 12:38:46 Hanging in. You? 12:38:52 Indeed. :) 12:39:13 Will have to take R3 to girl friends any minute but here till then :) 12:39:47 R3, eh? 12:40:12 Found out the surname is really... 12:40:30 Sainte Marie did Suprenant. 12:40:42 did, eh? 12:40:53 lol dit 12:40:56 sorry. 12:41:01 dit? as in 'said'? 12:41:29 some Canuck Grandpa dropped ( yes as in say or said or said to be ) dropped it. 12:41:36 ah. 12:41:43 Must have been the beer. 12:41:56 Then his son did STE. 12:42:01 then my dad dropped the E 12:42:18 St. Marie. R3 is pissed and likes the extended name. lol 12:43:32 I too have a hand in the spelling of the name when I asked my dad how to spell the middle name Arthur, I mentioned that a U would give us all the "vowels and sometimes y" and he changed it from that point on as well. 12:44:27 R3 is known as TRay and is spelled R3. 12:44:42 or that's his handle. 12:48:11 I take the whole translation of the last name to be " Sainte Marie ( the virgin Mary ) who is said to be suprising. 12:49:07 if I understand the Surprenant properly. 13:14:17 Maybe. 13:14:25 I am no expert. :) 13:14:56 Especially not when it comes to Canuck Grampas. 13:53:26 --- quit: kardinal ("KVIrc 3.2.4 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/") 13:56:50 --- join: mark4 (n=mark4@70.102.202.140) joined #forth 14:04:08 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 14:07:55 --- quit: GoNoGo ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.12/2008020121]") 14:15:05 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-059-101-181.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 14:15:20 --- join: ecraven (n=nex@plc9-214.linzag.net) joined #forth 14:15:36 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Nick collision from services.) 14:15:48 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 14:21:54 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 14:45:46 --- join: Al2O3_ (n=Al2O3@c-76-120-54-133.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 14:47:16 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 14:51:18 --- quit: mark4 ("Leaving") 14:58:13 --- quit: Al2O3 (Connection timed out) 15:10:32 --- quit: Maki () 15:16:48 --- join: Maki (n=veselic@adsl-202-95.eunet.yu) joined #forth 15:17:43 --- quit: Maki (Client Quit) 16:25:26 --- join: maki (n=maki@adsl-202-95.eunet.yu) joined #forth 16:40:23 --- quit: Quartus` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:04:24 --- quit: Al2O3_ () 17:20:44 --- join: aspect (i=aspect@burns.dreamhost.com) joined #forth 17:21:08 --- quit: maki ("Leaving") 17:41:45 --- join: kardinal (n=kvirc@e180187079.adsl.alicedsl.de) joined #forth 18:01:51 Hi. 18:08:23 --- join: |kardinal| (n=kvirc@e180191175.adsl.alicedsl.de) joined #forth 18:25:53 --- quit: kardinal (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:54:53 --- nick: |kardinal| -> kardinal 20:05:32 --- quit: timlarson (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:10:56 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@210.188.173.246) joined #forth 20:11:29 --- quit: kardinal ("KVIrc 3.2.4 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/") 20:20:06 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 21:16:56 --- quit: timlarson (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:18:15 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 23:04:14 --- quit: crc (Remote closed the connection) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/08.03.24