00:00:00 --- log: started forth/08.01.13 00:04:10 --- quit: gnomon (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:05:08 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:05:21 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 00:08:49 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 00:08:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 00:10:41 --- join: gnomon (n=gnomon@CPE0050eb372bdb-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 00:13:50 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 00:41:47 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-0f121b15cb0913c1) joined #forth 01:16:52 --- join: Makic (n=veselic@adsl-254-159.eunet.yu) joined #forth 01:17:30 Hi 02:11:52 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-75-70-5-69.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 02:34:56 --- quit: Al2O3_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:25:15 --- join: Viper (n=viper@chello084114184044.13.15.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 05:25:31 --- nick: Viper -> viperhr 05:28:26 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 06:03:04 --- join: proteusguy (n=proteusg@ppp-124.120.218.169.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 06:26:38 --- join: probonono (n=User@ppp103-111.static.internode.on.net) joined #forth 06:33:36 --- join: ramkrsna (n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna) joined #forth 06:46:35 --- quit: probonono ("Arrgh.. box crashing again!") 07:01:11 --- quit: proteusguy ("Leaving") 07:19:37 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-e43530b72c19e424) joined #forth 08:52:21 --- nick: Makic -> Maki 09:15:09 --- quit: ramkrsna ("Leaving") 10:57:14 --- join: Deforma (n=joe@c-68-61-240-49.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:57:46 --- quit: Deformative (Nick collision from services.) 10:57:50 --- nick: Deforma -> deformative 13:14:09 --- join: DocPlatypus (n=doc@mousetrap.platypuslabs.org) joined #forth 13:14:13 yo 13:24:27 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 13:47:38 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 13:50:55 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 13:50:55 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 13:52:15 --- join: snoopy16 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-088-068-222-041.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 14:00:31 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 14:00:33 --- nick: snoopy16 -> Snoopy42 14:48:10 --- nick: maht__ -> maht 15:41:33 --- quit: neceve (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:07:43 does anyone still talk here? 16:07:49 not really 16:08:24 there aren't that many active forth-related open source projects 16:08:24 Time to time. 16:08:28 I'd be on here more if I had Internet where I live... I was riding free wi-fi that took a dump and never got back off the pot 16:08:34 OSS isn't the only allowable topic. 16:08:57 yeah I'm wondering what is up with GNU Forth ... want to see 0.7.0 released soon 16:08:59 the factor channel is very active and has 50 or more nicks on most days now 16:09:30 I can't wrap my head around Factor for some reason or at least for what I want to do it seems like Forth is easier to figure out and/or faster 16:09:49 Factor runs like a dog on my PCs 16:10:18 my fastest PC is either a 0.8GHz Celeron or 0.667GHz Pentium III (the latter of which was just recently acquired) 16:10:59 runs fast enough to power several web sites 16:11:15 i don't seem any web applications written in forth ;) 16:11:18 --- join: DocPlatypus_ (n=doc@mousetrap.platypuslabs.org) joined #forth 16:11:35 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Nick collision from services.) 16:11:37 --- nick: DocPlatypus_ -> DocPlatypus 16:11:55 my slowest PC is a 400mhz ARM phone 16:12:00 took something like 30 seconds to start the Tetris demo 16:12:13 did you guys get the last line of those? 16:12:20 that's because tetris was being compiled 16:12:23 yeah 16:12:32 oh I knew what I came on here about... 16:13:01 end-users don't compile programs though 16:13:08 is there not supposed to be a way to run a compiled GNU Forth image and have it automatically start a word instead of just dumping into the interpeter? 16:13:24 factor can build native binaries on windows and mac os 16:13:52 if I hack in '-e "main bye"' at the end it tries to interpet the image as Forth commands. before '--image-file' doesn't work either 16:14:10 DocPlatypus: see http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Modifying-the-Startup-Sequence.html#Modifying%20the%20Startup%20Sequence 16:14:48 ah-ha! 16:15:54 factorcode.org gets about 800 hits an hour 16:16:16 which isn't much, i wonder how i twill hold up with 10 times that much 16:16:18 DocPlatypus: you know they've released a snapshot of gforth from cvs? 16:16:35 http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Snapshots/ 16:16:37 okay, a more general Forth-related question... does it go against one of the Forth philosophies for Forth to be compiled into a native binary the way C, C++, C#, FORTRAN, BASIC, etc. usually are? 16:16:58 is factorcode.org running on an httpd written in Factor? 16:17:31 yes 16:18:56 there's a lot of dynamic content too 16:19:25 tathi: yes I'm running a very recent CVS checkout 16:19:41 recent enough to be GPLv3 16:20:35 --- quit: Maki () 16:21:07 oh, ok. 16:21:23 the cross compiler needs better documentation. I have had no luck with it and if I could figure out what was going on I'd write it myself 16:21:28 (the documentation I mean) 16:21:49 heh. Yeah, I looked at the cross compiler briefly and gave up. 16:22:05 Actually, I might be able to figure it out now... 16:22:40 --- join: DocPlatypus_ (n=doc@mousetrap.platypuslabs.org) joined #forth 16:22:54 tathi: most GNU variant distributions won't package just a CVS snapshot as an updated version, certainly not for something like a Forth system 16:23:04 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Nick collision from services.) 16:23:05 --- nick: DocPlatypus_ -> DocPlatypus 16:23:08 looks like the gforth guys need to fgiure out a release process 16:23:13 instead of being elitist 16:23:20 yes four years between releases is a bit much 16:23:44 soon we're going to set up daily builds with automated testing and notification when things break 16:23:54 yeah, I totally agree that they should release a new one. 16:24:00 there's a lot of new stuff in CVS 16:24:28 unfortunately Anton seems pretty adamant about not releasing until a bunch of stuff gets "finished." :( 16:24:42 tathi: would you consider the addition of words like under- and -! to be bloat? 16:25:06 I have an app where I have a good use for a -! as strange as it may seem 16:25:47 i don't think a few bytes is bloat 16:25:48 I know I can always 'swap negate swap +!' or whatever but that to me seems clumsy 16:26:14 seems fine to me. 16:26:46 I think '2 PICK' should have a name too -- every time I try dealing with strings I seem to need it. 16:26:56 in factor we call that pick :) 16:27:00 there's no general picker 16:27:11 yeah, I know :) 16:28:03 we had a guy come along today and play around with using xml-rpc to talk to flickr.com web services. that's pretty cool 16:28:10 --- join: DocPlatypus_ (n=doc@mousetrap.platypuslabs.org) joined #forth 16:28:27 xml-rpc is bloat, not -! :-) 16:28:29 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Nick collision from services.) 16:28:31 --- nick: DocPlatypus_ -> DocPlatypus 16:28:34 hehe 16:28:42 lol 16:29:07 I don't know why I'm getting dumped like a batch of garbage tonight 16:29:18 because you need to get a real internet connection ;) 16:29:43 we have DSL here but there's some kind of wiring issue 16:31:06 did that last comment make it through? 16:31:23 that would depend on what the hell the last comment actually was. 16:31:25 which one? :) 16:31:36 about locals 16:31:40 no 16:32:09 I'd love to see the GNU Forth extention to locals make it into the next Forth standard 16:33:47 --- join: DocPlatypus_ (n=doc@mousetrap.platypuslabs.org) joined #forth 16:33:58 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Nick collision from services.) 16:34:02 --- nick: DocPlatypus_ -> DocPlatypus 16:34:19 #$%&*@! 16:35:06 I was saying: I'd love to see the GNU Forth extention to locals make it into the next Forth standard 16:39:34 Ok. 16:40:59 I've never tried using locals... 16:42:19 Except in rare circumstance, they're a red flag for better factoring. 16:44:53 they're useful for mathematical formulas 16:44:58 I use them to make code more readable 16:45:15 in factor locals can be used to make closures which allow you to express certain things in nice ways 16:45:42 In Forth, they commonly show that you've got a problem with either the order, or the number, of stack items -- or both 16:45:42 yes 16:46:23 i've found that having higher order functions and real data types makes locals even less useful 16:46:59 i consider forth's VARIABLEs a red flag for poor factoring also ;) 16:47:08 the tradeoff you make between Forth and Factor, is that having all these data types makes it a lot harder to fit the VM into constrained environments 16:47:30 when building a languag you need to have specific problems in mind 16:47:37 well, Forth and Factor are not the same animal 16:47:38 i want to build web applications and desktop GUI applications 16:47:50 recetly i've started looking into high-end mobile phones 16:48:01 so i optimize for developer time, not CPU time 16:48:22 traditionally forth has been aimed at the embedded market 16:49:15 in a few months i'm going to add factor to the language shootout, i think by then i can be faster than gforth on most benchmarks 16:49:20 especially anything with floating point 16:49:34 GNU Forth already beats the stuffing out of kForth on pispigot 16:49:44 kForth is an ITC interpreter though 16:50:03 on some benchmarks, like spectral-norm, my compiler already optimizes out all type checking and dispatch 16:50:21 on others i need to improve the type analysis before it can reach that level 16:50:44 from there i can work on better register allocation and control flow analysis 16:50:58 the idea is that the developer writes high level code and the compiler makes it efficient 16:53:57 --- join: DocPlatypus_ (n=doc@mousetrap.platypuslabs.org) joined #forth 16:54:28 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Nick collision from services.) 16:54:31 --- nick: DocPlatypus_ -> DocPlatypus 17:00:08 --- quit: arke ("leaving") 17:20:37 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:22:41 --- quit: viperhr (Remote closed the connection) 17:26:05 was that virl? 17:28:21 DocPlatypus? not to my knowledge 17:29:40 viperhr [n=viper@chello084114184044.13.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit 17:29:53 ah. Possible. 17:30:50 just curious 17:31:04 seems probable 18:12:15 --- join: KipIngram (n=KipIngra@c-98-196-82-10.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:12:22 --- quit: KipIngram (Client Quit) 18:13:03 --- quit: timlarson ("Leaving") 18:17:36 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 18:22:53 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 20:05:26 --- quit: timlarson (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:05:36 --- join: timlarson__ (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 21:29:54 --- quit: Al2O3 () 21:34:10 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-75-70-5-69.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:39:36 --- join: arke (n=arke@p54A7CA76.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 21:39:36 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 21:46:16 --- join: ramkrsna (n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna) joined #forth 21:50:33 --- join: ramki (n=ramki@unaffiliated/ramkrsna) joined #forth 23:38:11 --- join: JasonWoo1 (n=jason@c-71-192-28-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 23:38:11 --- quit: JasonWoof (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:39:06 --- nick: JasonWoo1 -> JasonWoof 23:39:12 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 23:57:39 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/08.01.13