00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.11.09 00:02:15 --- join: H4n1 (n=hans@p57A0D3DB.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 00:07:55 I've got a ThinkOutside Stowaway that I just plain love. The thing has stood up to some serious abuse, too. 00:13:54 hehe :) stowaway website says "r u all thumbs?" 00:15:12 --- join: H4n2 (n=hans@p57A0DA6B.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 00:17:10 cool, looks pretty well designed 00:17:30 the one I had, had the numbers, and folded in 4 pieces 00:20:13 --- quit: H4ns (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 00:23:12 oh, I see, the two models are significantly different 00:23:26 the ultra-thin one has less keys and stuff, and has one fold 00:23:47 the other (which looks like the same design as the thing I had in 2000 or 2001) has more keys, and three folds 00:25:40 Ah, I'm familiar with that model. 00:26:01 One of the nice things about the ultra-thin model is that it folds open and locks; it's suitable for typing on your lap. 00:26:08 It makes the long subway commutes just whip by. 00:27:04 very cool 00:27:22 that was the drawback of the one I had, you needed a good flat surface 00:28:36 with my palm hooked on and sticking out at a nice angle it felt ever so slightly precarious 00:29:06 that's cool they're bluetooth 00:29:10 that's changed in the last 7 years 00:29:50 I'm at thinkoutside.com... so weird how they have practically no information about them 00:30:01 click through to a store and it has a slightly larger paragraph 00:30:11 and a PDF with the same picture and some stats 00:30:19 There's a sad thing going on with them right now. 00:30:36 The people who actually developed the keyboard are absolutely obsessive about its quality and about supporting it. 00:30:46 The parent company - which, incidentally, keeps changing - not so much. 00:31:07 --- quit: segher (Connection timed out) 00:32:18 sigh: cedict-b5.fs:574: Dictionary overflow 00:32:58 --- quit: H4n1 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:33:13 this minimalist stuff really appeals to me 00:33:32 well, minimalist isn't the right word 00:36:37 eesh, it's $130 00:36:45 iirc I bought mine for $80 00:37:00 but it didn't have a bettery or bluetooth 00:37:13 --- join: segher (n=segher@82-217-247-28.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 00:37:26 Yeah, the current pricing for the ThinkOutside is ridonkulous. Check out Amazon.com. 00:39:15 ahh, $72.60, much better 00:39:36 that's so cool it can be bluetooth 00:39:51 that way they don't need a slightly different model for each different device 00:40:13 I had the palm knockoff Visor, so I had to get the special stowaway model for that 00:40:21 had a slightly different docking connector 00:40:35 then when my Visor died, the keyboard was useless 00:41:11 ok, I'm sold on the keyboard, now what handheld computer should I get to go with it? 00:41:25 don't think my computer or laptop supports bluetooth 00:41:50 Bluetooth dongles are so cheap these days that it basically doesn't matter. 00:42:12 Get something with a Broadcom BCM2045 chipset and a firmware flashed in after 2005 and it'll even include USB compatbility mode. 00:42:22 oh, I think I've seen a usb bluetooth thing that was tiny. the part that stuck out wasn't much bigger than the part that stuck in 00:42:47 ah, -1 ALLOT 00:42:49 Yeah, there are two companies that make those: Mogo and Princeton of Japan. 00:43:02 usb compatibility on what? 00:43:09 Can't find either in stock anywhere yet, and the manufacturers aren't divulging chipset info yet. 00:43:45 JasonWoof, the BCM2045 chip will, upon boot, present itself to your Bluetooth device(s) as a standard receiver, and to the host machine as a USB HI Device. 00:44:20 If you're using a keyboard and a mouse that have already paired with the adapter, when said adapter powers on, it will allow them to connect using a limited built-in implementation of HCI mode. 00:44:33 but I wanted that to move HERE backwards. doh. 00:44:36 Then it trivially translates that protocol into the USB HID protocol and forwards that along. 00:45:08 What this means is that, until the Bluetooth driver loads, your computer will recognize your Bluetooth keyboard and mouse as standard USB devices instead. 00:45:47 awesome 00:46:12 ayrnieu: moving here backwards is fine 00:46:32 ayrnieu: you might want it to be alligned though 00:50:06 As for what handheld computer you want, though, that's a pretty personal question. What is or are your use case(s)? 00:51:04 JasonWoof - in fact, I was ( XT ) ALLOTing 00:51:50 by way of ( c-addr u xt ) STRNIG, 00:52:15 ayrnieu: huh? 00:52:46 sorry, JasonWoof, I don't know how to answer that question. 00:53:04 although I get a dictionaary overflow anyway :-) cedict-b5.fs:53588: Dictionary overflow 00:53:20 ayrnieu: I can't make sense of any of your pseudocodo 00:53:41 so I didn't waste time by figuring out how to increase the dictionary. 00:54:10 JasonWoof - well, there's a stack comment and then there's a word. The forth words are all-caps. 00:54:15 gnomon: I'll need an ssh client primarily. I want wifi. extra bonus points if I can do VoIP 00:56:42 ayrnieu: you were passing an execution token to ALLOT? 00:57:10 aye. 00:57:14 oops 00:58:37 gnomon: I want to be able to install geeky free-software stuff, like a text-mode web browser 01:02:50 gnomon: do most bluetooth+wifi pdas have enough CPU power to do VoIP? 01:02:58 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 01:03:48 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-23cdd265a0212c4a) joined #forth 01:04:13 JasonWoof, most decent PDAs and phones these days have Bluetooth; it's not much of a differentiating factor. 01:04:43 WiFi, however, is a premium medium; those devices which support it almost always also support VoIP and other "advanced" stuff. 01:05:07 ok 01:05:15 I actually know of very few devices which support running text-mode browsers natively (the N8[01]0 and others fit the bill, though). 01:05:43 If you just want VoIP, WiFi, Bluetooth and SSH, pick any Nokia device from the E series that supports WiFi. 01:05:46 That's not important, ssh client is though 01:06:03 If I have ssh and a hankering for w3m I can use it through ssh 01:06:11 Y'exactly. 01:06:41 --- quit: segher (Connection timed out) 01:06:48 more important to me is that it's not locked into proprietary-only software 01:06:52 I recommend the E61i if you're looking for a PDA form factor and really kick-ass battery life; and the upcoming E51 if you also treasure compactness, though you'll be sacrificing screen size. 01:07:16 --- quit: forther (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:07:37 Although the Symbian platform itself is not open source, it is open in the sense that you can run third-party native binaries on it; and many Nokia employees support open source software personally and professionally. 01:07:51 There's an officially support Python distro, for example. 01:08:10 I don't mind if the os is proprietary 01:08:28 so long as it's possible for indipendant geeks like me to port things to it 01:10:42 --- join: segher (n=segher@82-217-247-28.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 01:15:23 the E61i is a cell phone too? 01:19:02 I'm not up on the lingo I guess. "smartphone" means cellphone+pda? 01:23:14 having my computer and my cellphone be the same device is still a little incomprehensible to me 01:23:37 otoh, I carry a cellphone anyway, and it would be very cool if it could do ssh 01:35:01 --- quit: H4n2 (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 02:02:48 --- join: H4ns (n=hans@ip-90-187-34-8.web.vodafone.de) joined #forth 02:02:57 --- quit: segher (Connection timed out) 02:04:41 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 02:09:50 --- join: segher (n=segher@82-217-247-28.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 02:36:33 --- quit: segher (Connection timed out) 02:36:41 --- quit: H4ns (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:42:19 --- join: H4ns (n=hans@ip-90-186-183-176.web.vodafone.de) joined #forth 02:44:21 JasonWoof, yes, sorry. "Smartphone" is normally taken to mean "a cell phone which also allows you to run natively-compiled binaries"; a feature phone or a dumb phone is one which allows no third-party code, or which allows only sandboxed Java apps or the like. 02:44:44 ahh, good definition 02:45:29 the E61i looks pretty fancy 02:45:47 I wanted to be tied to as little infrastructure (chargers, connector cables, &c.) as possible; that's why I got a smartphone. In terms of hardware design, it's primarily a phone; but my E50 also runs a fully memory-protected multitasking OS on a 200+MHz ARM CPU, and my keyboard lets me settle in to some serious hacking when I get the urge. 02:45:52 will it run without a SIM card? 02:45:58 Thankfully, yes. 02:47:03 The main problem with Nokia E series devices in namerica is that it's hard to find a retailer that offers a warranty, and because of this, the prices can sometimes be tremendously inflated. 02:47:17 I just switched to verizon, which is not the most high-tech carrier, as far as I can tell 02:47:22 But main, the E61i and its predecessor are some seriously solid kit. 02:47:31 Verizon - are they GSM-based? 02:47:33 I alwys forget 02:47:33 . 02:47:46 wikipedia says GSM/CDMA 02:48:00 the E61i said it does GSM and WCDMA 02:49:17 Yes; the problem there is that CDMA networks jealously guard the keys which allow them to authorize devices on their network. 02:49:39 But hey, you're the Verizon customer - you'd know better about that than me. Do Verizon phones use SIM cards? 02:50:00 I'd be surprised if they did, since CDMA is a more advanced protocol than GSM. 02:50:09 Whoops, I've got to run. 02:50:13 JasonWoof, catch you later? 02:50:37 ok. thanks for all the advice! 02:50:44 no card I could find. 02:50:47 looked under the battery 03:30:52 --- join: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-173-6.cable.telstraclear.net) joined #forth 03:40:02 --- quit: slava (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:52:33 --- quit: H4ns (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:30:56 --- join: H4ns (n=hans@p57BBAE82.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 04:34:20 --- quit: doublec () 04:39:09 --- join: H4n1 (n=hans@p57BBAD37.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 04:51:36 --- quit: H4ns (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:54:52 --- quit: H4n1 ("Leaving.") 05:19:08 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0007e97df149-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 05:19:55 --- join: edrx (i=edrx@189.25.93.129) joined #forth 05:33:13 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 06:10:08 --- quit: Al2O3_ ("Eggplant & SenseTalk: Driving Success Through Automation") 06:50:43 01:36 < gnomon> For everything else, I'm not even bothering to take performance into account anymore. I'm just caring about 06:50:46 noise, heat, Linux compatibility and price. 06:50:58 That's why i'm using an IBM T20 laptop. From 1999. 06:51:30 It turns out that you should also care about reliability, battery life, and physical intactness. 06:51:38 But hey, I only paid US$300. 07:11:03 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving") 07:27:11 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-75-70-5-69.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:29:45 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 08:20:57 --- join: forther (n=forther@c-67-180-150-67.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:09:46 JasonWoof: My LG phone (Verizon) has a micro-MMC memory card. I have 512MB cards, but I believe they now go up to 1GB to 2GB or so. 09:21:59 --- quit: KragenSitaker ("leaving") 09:54:31 kc5tja, microSDHC cards that go up to 6 gigs are now widely available in my area. I've got a 2GB card in my E50. 10:12:30 gents hows it going 10:12:36 not much going on in here it seems 10:18:38 hi 10:24:10 slava how the math? 10:24:13 :) 10:24:23 good. i'm submitting my thesis today or monday 10:24:34 I stopped at partial integrals in high school 10:24:42 never got inot martixes or differentails 10:24:45 into 10:31:23 * kc5tja wishes he had what it takes to complete a degree . . . 10:31:51 Good luck on the thesis. 10:44:31 gnomon: Nice. I'm sure that we have such capacities here too. 10:44:39 I just never bothered to look beyond 6GB. 10:44:41 err 10:44:42 2GB 10:44:53 My 512MB card is still mostly empty. 11:01:06 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-90aaf44e3a5fea86) joined #forth 11:04:47 degree? 11:04:58 I have a BA economics from UCLA 11:05:19 and let me tell ya my phone never stops ringing 11:17:29 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-178-112.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 11:21:10 I rather find that hard to believe. 11:25:10 --- quit: ygrek ("Leaving") 11:25:25 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 11:25:27 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 11:26:54 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-bf71c40791a3a9a5) joined #forth 11:39:30 sometimes I feel like jak baur in 24 11:55:02 I'm sure. 12:27:08 --- join: Robert (i=robert@unaffiliated/robert) joined #forth 12:33:25 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 12:35:28 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-df645f59c542b56f) joined #forth 12:58:23 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 13:14:24 kc5tja: does your phone do wifi? 13:17:06 My nokia 770 does wifi! 13:17:10 But it cannot make calls. 13:17:13 :P 13:21:08 --- join: gavino1 (n=gschuett@147.21.16.3) joined #forth 13:32:13 wow ron paul seems cool 13:32:15 :) 13:33:02 Yeah, I've never seen anyone get that much astroturfing done, ever. 13:33:12 It's really quite impressive. 13:33:45 bernanke is a tool 13:43:55 Robert: I suspect he may actually have a real grass-roots effort going. 13:44:52 Probably, someone with no supporters at all would be pretty lame. 13:44:53 I don't think he has the money to do the astroturfing at such a level. 13:45:09 I wish politician in usa would listen to the people more. 13:45:39 * TreyB happens to live in his district. 13:46:15 I think I voted against him last time, just as a backlash against Republicans in general. 13:47:07 * TreyB bails to pick the kids up from the bus. 13:52:53 as a libertarian I am backlashing against big government. 13:54:44 --- join: Deformati (n=joe@c-68-61-240-49.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 14:03:33 ah 14:03:49 forth can emulate multitasking wow how is that possible 14:03:57 if thens are evil according to chuck moore 14:03:58 woa 14:04:12 * Deformati saw it the same way. 14:04:18 Still do I guess. 14:05:49 Could be easier to write with an object oriented system. 14:06:00 Object oriented forth, there is some language like that I think. 14:20:16 guess? 14:22:56 --- quit: Al2O3 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:23:02 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-75-70-5-69.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 14:24:34 --- quit: Al2O3 (Remote closed the connection) 14:25:10 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-75-70-5-69.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 14:34:12 --- part: edrx left #forth 14:37:36 Sure. 14:44:15 how would you keep a database in memory in forth? 14:47:32 linxu, the question is vague 14:47:59 be specific. 14:51:32 I like the starting forth book. 14:51:43 Any more language books written in the same mannor? 14:52:40 manner. It's unique. 14:53:20 Is that a no? 14:54:29 unique means it's the only one of its kind. The same author wrote Thinking Forth, but it's not the same style. 14:59:08 leo is writing no more? 14:59:39 Hmm. 14:59:45 I have a big list of books to read. 14:59:59 And for some reason I am trying to read them all at the same timer instead of independently. 15:00:03 not to my knowledge. He's a puppeteer now, if I recall correctly. 15:00:03 Oh well. 15:00:14 * Deformati wanders off. 15:00:39 That sounds weird enough to be true. 15:02:48 oh Im weird too, I am fascinated by forth, common lisp, clustering, plan9 and horro movies... 15:02:53 horror even 15:03:12 I noticed forth works with some vlsi cad program? 15:03:20 cad is a graphical program is it not? 15:03:33 (I don't even know what vlsi means) 15:03:58 Chuck Moore certainly uses some unorthodox software development methods. 15:04:10 Very Large Scale Integration, iirc. 15:05:01 now does this involve graphics? 15:05:03 linxu, wikipedia. Vlsi. 15:05:08 go look. 15:05:13 like even star trek one level graphicS? 15:05:43 gavin. Warning. 15:06:20 k 15:06:31 quartus what are you reading lately? 15:06:42 whats in your stack as it were? 15:06:45 fiction mostly. 15:07:08 a science fiction novel recommended by a friend, today. 15:07:19 ever read black company by glen cook? 15:07:31 no. 15:08:09 so what is it? 15:08:26 the Algebraist 15:19:59 JasonWoof: No, not to my knowledge. It is not suitable for use as an Internet Access Device, even though it has a web browser and whatnot built-in. 15:22:49 --- quit: forther (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:24:35 hmm 15:24:58 I wonder how different a book would be to me to read the uk version 15:29:48 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 15:29:48 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 15:34:25 --- join: crc_ (n=crc@pool-70-110-143-33.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 15:36:23 --- quit: crc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:38:35 --- join: crc__ (n=crc@pool-70-110-143-33.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 15:38:51 --- nick: crc__ -> crc 15:39:03 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 15:41:07 --- join: forther (n=forther@c-67-180-150-67.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 15:50:32 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/de14de1cfcbc1d26/0254633a5bb9cfd3# 15:50:35 interesting 15:52:47 Hmm. 15:52:54 I don't really like forth looping. 15:53:42 --- quit: crc_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:56:54 why is that 15:57:21 Dunno. 15:57:28 Just doesn't quite fit. 15:57:53 hm 15:59:21 Anything in particular? 15:59:58 Well, the block structure works, it just needs some getting used to. 16:00:05 But I don't like the limit/variable deal. 16:01:19 The two different stacks confuses me a bit as well. 16:07:28 Brb, restarting. 16:08:11 Never mind. 16:08:15 Imma wait a bti longer. 16:09:24 hey kc5 16:09:28 u there? 16:27:09 only sometimes. 16:31:38 I was reading about some forth databases on the fig site 16:31:50 how does one lern to create such databases in forth? 16:31:54 learn 16:32:10 Did anyone manage wget'ing starting forth? 16:32:14 It is tricky; 16:32:21 by doing and studying. 16:35:27 --- quit: forther ("Leaving") 16:39:16 --- quit: Al2O3 ("Eggplant & SenseTalk: Driving Success Through Automation") 16:40:19 enough with the 'how do I learn?' questions. You learn by reading, to start with; by trying, second. Repeat as required. 16:40:42 s/did/has 16:40:58 I just noticed my own grammar mistake. 16:41:06 Was not correcting you. 16:47:35 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-75-70-5-69.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:56:31 --- quit: Quartus__ ("used jmIrc") 16:56:45 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 17:34:15 --- join: Robert__ (i=robert@ua-83-227-163-7.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 17:41:40 --- quit: Robert (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:44:31 --- join: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-173-6.cable.telstraclear.net) joined #forth 18:25:19 --- quit: doublec () 18:28:23 found another good linux game: holotz-castle 18:28:31 tathi: I bet you'd like it 18:32:31 I've seen it, never tried it 18:47:38 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 19:30:00 --- nick: jdrake__ -> jdrake 19:32:43 --- quit: Deformati (Remote closed the connection) 20:02:07 --- join: LOOP-HOG (n=jasondam@c-76-105-172-75.hsd1.or.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:02:16 hi 20:05:36 --- join: Deformative-II (n=joe@c-68-61-240-49.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:06:34 hi 20:13:41 --- quit: Deformative-II (Remote closed the connection) 20:57:51 --- quit: LOOP-HOG (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:57:59 --- join: LOOP-HOG (n=jasondam@c-76-105-172-75.hsd1.or.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:58:03 hi 21:01:10 The X-Prize Cup Sucked, I was there 21:01:28 http://www.moonmall.org/saturday-october-27-2007.html 21:01:40 http://www.moonmall.org/x-prize-cup-2007.html 21:41:35 Back from work. 21:41:38 At long last. 21:57:40 --- quit: LOOP-HOG () 22:02:18 Awesome. So there is a 58,000 gallon oil spill in the San Francisco bay. 23:00:43 --- join: edrx (i=edrx@189.25.93.129) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.11.09