00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.11.07 00:18:58 --- quit: arke_ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 00:55:02 --- join: arke (n=arke@x259.vpn.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de) joined #forth 00:55:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 01:40:14 --- quit: Baughn (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:50:45 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:51:27 --- quit: arcus ("Ex-Chat") 02:57:51 --- join: arke (n=arke@x268.vpn.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de) joined #forth 02:57:51 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 03:08:47 --- quit: forther (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:22:28 --- join: Baughn (n=svein@084202038064.customer.alfanett.no) joined #forth 04:15:44 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p5489F964.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 04:25:19 --- join: edrx (i=edrx@189.25.57.254) joined #forth 04:33:49 --- join: H4ns (n=hans@p57BBB9FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 04:41:22 --- quit: H4ns ("Leaving.") 04:41:42 --- join: H4ns (n=hans@p57BBB9FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 05:19:14 --- join: Off_Namuh (i=GPS@gateway/tor/x-b8d0859deaaeeecf) joined #forth 05:59:51 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 06:00:13 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 06:38:44 : adler ( c-addr u -- d. ) 0 1 2swap bounds ?do i c@ + dup under+ loop ; 06:40:00 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p5489CA38.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 06:42:16 which only comes to Adler-32 on a system with 16-bit cells, of course. 06:43:35 and it seems that it is a weaker function with a larger modulo. 06:48:01 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:49:50 and it should be called FLETCHER 08:16:22 --- quit: timlarson_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:34:14 --- join: forther (n=forther@c-67-180-150-67.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:47:11 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 09:06:30 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@230.sub-70-215-59.myvzw.com) joined #forth 09:13:54 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 09:40:49 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 09:45:09 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:05:04 --- join: arke (n=arke@p54A7DD58.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 10:05:04 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 10:16:21 adler-32 (as defined for zlib spec 1950, as used in PNG) does the sums in mod 65521 not 65536 10:33:27 man, I should get back into working on my forth 10:33:46 yes 10:34:08 looks like I haven't touched it since January 10:35:09 I somehow got it into my head that I don't like writing editors 10:36:06 there's tough decisions to make though 10:36:25 it's very tempting to make everything into menus 10:36:50 but that doesn't seem very good in terms of habituating 10:37:03 maybe it's fine so long as the menus stay arranged the same way 10:38:08 I've got the code browser all done, but editing is far from complete 10:38:24 I like the interface so far 10:38:53 standard set of keys under my right hand for left,right,up,down,follow link,go back 10:40:17 I think at some point I'll need something similar to "follow link" but more sophisticated. Something akin to a right-click menu 10:40:31 showing all references/actions related to that item 10:40:33 go on and build a nice editor interface, so that i can steal it :) 10:40:50 :) 10:41:54 Working on Fronds again? 10:41:59 tempted 10:42:05 I ran it and poked around a little 10:42:27 it appears that when I left off I was just starting to make it so you could type words into the editor 10:42:37 doesn't work so hot though 10:42:51 they're always yellow, and backspace ends the word instead of removing a character 10:42:54 Heh, I have the guts of a simple text editor written -- the "model" so to speak, with some limited "view" support. 10:42:57 But no controller as of yet. 10:43:21 i'm working on non-blocking io for windows ce 10:43:24 well, that's the trouble with making this fancy structured editor, is that I'll still have to make a text editor 10:43:34 tedious stuff 10:43:56 hmm... enjoy the mental masturbation of threads programming under Win32 API. :) 10:44:07 no threads here 10:44:07 (although, in many respects, POSIX is worse.) 10:44:13 OH, that's even worse. :) 10:44:27 just mutiplexed io 10:45:05 hehe, I can move the cursor around to different words, and my typing still appends the word I started writing 10:45:06 If you have an event-driven model already, the asynch-IO stuff works ok. 10:45:26 the problem is the win32 api 10:45:29 you have functionis that take 10 parameters, etc 10:45:29 heh 10:45:37 tasty! ;) 10:45:40 its hard to do it right in a stack language 10:45:44 Yep. 10:47:31 factor can generate a stand-alone executable of itself right? 10:47:51 no, the only executable is the vm written in c 10:47:56 ok 10:47:59 but it can generate turnkey images which are stripped down 10:48:07 and on mac os x i have a tool which packages this all up into a .app 10:48:16 very cool 10:48:38 oh, you know how to make a .app package? 10:48:47 its trivial 10:48:50 can I sucker you into packaging up the game that tathi and I hacked on? 10:49:02 we're done messing with it for a long time 10:49:04 i can explain how its done 10:49:21 I know basically how it's done, I just don't have MacOSX 10:50:05 it should be really easy, the game already builds fine on FreeBSD, ppc linux and x86 linux 10:50:45 hmm... I wonder if ubuntu has maconlinux 11:10:30 rrrr wtf? I'm finding disk images for macosx, but they require you to already have it to burn them (they keep going on about how burning in toast doesn't work) 11:11:26 slava: have you played vor? http://jasonwoof.org/vor 11:16:54 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-171-007.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 11:25:00 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 11:25:17 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 11:41:19 eh, that'll never work 11:41:29 I don't have time to screw around with mol 11:42:11 the people I see with macs tend not to have developer tools 11:42:29 maybe I should go to that 2600 meeting 11:45:33 * kc5tja cannot see JasonWoof at a 2600 meeting, with all those 1337 h4xx0rz. 11:45:35 ;) 11:46:03 I went to one noce 11:46:04 once 11:46:18 one idiot talked too much 11:46:32 I bought my laptop there 11:46:49 it had linux on it, but I wanted to see the wireless card work before I bought it 11:47:02 I managed to get a couple of the geeks obsessed with figuring it out 11:47:19 * kc5tja has never been to a 2600 meeting. 11:47:32 * kc5tja would like to attend this year's Forth Day though. 11:47:40 I don't want to go unless Chuck Moore will be there though. 11:48:42 why wouldn't he be there? 11:54:05 --- quit: Off_Namuh (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:00:08 --- join: Off_Namuh (i=GPS@gateway/tor/x-bb76aee669f134ca) joined #forth 12:05:14 Because he's not listed in the itinerary that's on the website. 12:05:23 I need to get off my butt and find out. 12:06:41 I stand corrected -- the itinerary has been updated since I last checked. 12:06:49 He (and a bunch of others from Intellasys) will be there. 12:08:16 cool 12:08:20 when's forth day? 12:08:26 17th, right? 12:08:26 I expect a full report 12:08:34 http://www.techshop.ws/ -- WHOA -- NEAT! 12:08:35 man, I like my forth! 12:08:46 even with all the weird quirks 12:09:01 the old editor (in herkforth, not Fronds) is pretty clunky in some ways 12:09:16 but also has some very handy features that I've not seen elsewhere at all 12:10:22 while I'm typing a word it displays as many tab-completions as it can fit on one line 12:10:31 You should write up a scholarly article on it. I'd blog it. :) 12:10:56 very cool, because I can start typing a word name that I hope exists, and if not, I complete a different one, and hit the go-to-definition key 12:11:04 define the word next to it's cousin 12:11:11 then hit the go-back key 12:11:19 and type it again, hitting space this time 12:11:33 brb -- I need to get to lunch while I still have time, and after that, I need to give a presentation on the project I've been banging my head on...er...developing for these past couple of months. 12:12:17 By brb, I meant, back in two hours or so. 12:19:35 Is chuck moore the same man who created moore's law? 12:30:21 Hmm, is parallel processing even possible in forth? 12:30:25 I do not see it. 12:59:37 everything is possible in forth 13:00:16 --- join: arcus (n=Miranda@130.195.209.73) joined #forth 13:08:36 --- join: doublec (n=doublec@202.180.114.137) joined #forth 13:15:02 def, not the same moore 13:15:14 wikipedia is your friend 13:18:37 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving") 13:21:36 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:21:52 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 13:21:52 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 13:42:47 hello all 13:50:25 --- quit: arke ("leaving") 13:50:30 --- join: arke_ (n=arke@p54A7DD58.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 13:50:53 anyone alive? 13:51:16 :) 13:53:26 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 13:53:34 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 14:11:43 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 14:11:43 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 14:26:26 yes 14:27:36 hy 14:27:38 hi 14:33:31 --- quit: JasonWoof (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:35:20 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-28-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 14:35:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 14:40:06 is it a mistake to not learn colorforth first? 14:40:14 to learn gforth with thinknig forth? 14:40:30 no, i think more people use gforth than colorforth 14:42:47 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 14:48:15 gforth and colorforth are different paradigms, really 14:48:27 the same philosophy but still very different 14:48:55 gforth (or any ANS forth, for that matter) is used much, much more than colorforth 14:49:18 but java is used a lto too adn I don't think java sounds fun 14:49:40 once I get into gforth more will I understand howto manage data? 14:49:51 do sorting and searching etc? 14:58:36 that's more of an algorithms thing 14:58:48 it's pretty much independent of programming language 14:59:16 some programming languages do have neat tricks for doing it that others don't, of course, but with familiarity of both the language and the algorithm they should be clear as day. :) 15:00:58 --- join: crest__ (n=crest@p5489F047.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 15:18:23 --- quit: crest_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:32:17 nice 15:32:44 anyone here working on a live production website? 15:32:56 I was confused by soemone who said mod perl only works with old apache 1.3 15:32:58 ..... 15:36:13 java is fun when you're paying other people to code for you 15:40:01 lol 15:40:49 java could be funner 15:40:53 thats what my friend rob does, has offshore team, uses jsf and spring and al this stuff and databases, and blah and its lie I get a headache even trying to get a java environment up n running with an ide on my linux box. 15:40:56 I can think of much worse though 15:41:16 happy_guy1: you can download a package that includes the jdk, netbeans and glassfish from sun 15:41:23 happy_guy2, for java, eclipse is probably the best IDE ... did you have trouble setting that up? 15:41:26 heh 15:41:42 there's also eclipse of course 15:41:44 well, it's an opinion thing ... I don't like eclipse per se but for java it's really good 15:41:53 great auto complete, etc. 15:43:34 no its using it 15:43:42 its liek its own operating system 15:43:59 well its a "platform" 15:44:43 everywhere I work its java java java yet on IRC people says java=suck suck suck 15:45:03 first of all, java does suck 15:45:11 second of all, most irc people dont have real jobs so they don't know what they're talking about 15:46:04 doh 15:46:51 (I have a real job darn it, but I don't know a lot about programming...) 15:47:38 slava what kind of jobs are you on these days? 15:47:58 these days i'm doing a masters degree in math :P 15:50:24 where do you find time to do factor et all 15:50:32 why masters in math? 15:52:39 Applied mathematicians get all the chicks. 15:53:03 If Eclipse is anything like IntelliJ IDEA, the IDE would work well for a wide variety of languages. In a "real-world" setting, these tools are damn nice to have. 15:53:26 But, they're overkill for small projects, so they're best used only for large-scale, industrial-grade coding efforts. 15:53:39 tools always help for any size project 15:53:39 * kc5tja would really like to get a degree in physics someday. :/ 15:53:43 java is painful to code by hand 15:54:04 slava: Yeah, but the tool needs to be sized appropriately. :) You don't want a sledgehammer when a wrecking ball is called for. 15:54:18 well, setting up and using idea is not rocket science 15:54:22 For Java, Eclipse plugs into the compiler and can thus do extremely context dependent operations. 15:54:31 idea more so 15:54:41 IDEA sucks llama balls because it's inherently unstable. 15:54:48 why? 15:54:55 It leaks memory like a siv, and is the most likely cause for rebooting a workstation. 15:54:59 ah. 15:55:10 Otherwise, I rather like it. 15:55:13 poor Guy Steele :-[ 15:55:20 arcus: ? 15:56:15 Someday, I hope to leave the computer world all-together (meaning, using computers as my source of income) and would like to re-invent myself as a physicist. 15:56:23 * kc5tja sighs -- I can dream . . . 16:09:22 kc5tja: well, he had some kind of hand in designing Java, you know. 16:10:29 mostly he helped write the spec, after the language was already designed 16:10:34 gosling lead the design iirc 16:10:50 gosling has no excuse. he was an emacs hacker from back in the day, and he also developed news, a window system extensible with postscript. 16:11:14 i guess after having so much trouble debugging his stack flow in postscript, he took to hitting the bottle hard, and java was the end result. 16:11:22 lol 16:11:43 lisp people and perl people partiularly hate java in my limited exp 16:12:06 i don't hate java, i just think its the wrong tool in many domans where it is used 16:12:08 domains 16:12:24 i coded java from 1996 to 2005. until 2003 or so it was the only language i knew well. 16:13:04 woa 16:13:10 I thought all java types got rich 16:13:21 i didn't do any paid java work until 2002. 16:13:41 didn't really get rich :) 16:16:15 Java is the new Cobol because it was expressly engineered to support replacable programming talent. 16:16:30 i'm not sure if that was one of the explicit goals or not. 16:16:35 originally they wanted a language for set-top boxes, iirc 16:16:48 These very smart people had first-hand experience teaching the majority of people superior languages, and found that the majority just couldn't handle the concepts. So, he left them out. 16:17:39 --- quit: arcus ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org") 16:18:06 kc5tja: but then, they contradicted themselves by adding parametric polymorphism in java 5 16:18:19 They used a C-style syntax because that's what the masses were familiar with (OK), they removed all the horrible things you could do with C (Good!), but failed to replace them with useful alternatives for concise code (Bad!). Oh well. :) 16:18:31 Only because C++ had it. 16:18:49 they didn't add operator overloading or other c++ features 16:18:57 or the smarties couldn't express themselves in english 16:19:01 Prior to that, the general feelings were to just declare everything as Object and cast down from it. 16:19:02 So uhmm... 16:19:10 How can multi-scope be done then? 16:19:14 kc5tja: yup. 16:19:19 kc5tja: java's not very type safe. 16:19:24 BTW, Philip Wadler (of Haskell fame) is the primary architect of parametric typing in Java. 16:19:30 kc5tja: NullPointerExceptions, etc. 16:19:43 Because wouldn't they be working on the same stack? 16:19:48 parametic typing woa thats a moth full 16:19:57 s/multi-scope/parallel 16:20:06 Deformative: parallel scope? 16:20:19 Weird brain failure. 16:20:23 yeah. 16:20:33 Just parallel processing 16:20:39 in java? 16:20:41 it works just fine 16:20:46 In forth 16:20:53 depends on the forth. some support threads,s ome don't. 16:20:56 As with other languages, you need separate stacks to multithread. 16:21:10 Figured. 16:21:21 But you cannot pass args, well, I guess they can be taken from the top of the stack. 16:21:44 Precisely. 16:21:47 for inter-thread communication? 16:22:01 its the same as in other languages. 16:22:14 Same as it is in C, where fork() basically passes a "simple" argument (named the process ID) and, based on that, you can seek shared memory or some such. 16:22:15 you use locks, semaphores, mailboxes, or some other abstraction. 16:22:29 or what kc5tja said. 16:22:38 when you spawn a thread, typically you can pass some initial argument(s). 16:22:41 in factor, 16:22:44 [ 2 2 + . ] in-thread 16:22:47 spawns a thread which prints 4 16:22:48 fork is defentially NOT what I need. 16:22:51 2 [ 2 + . ] in-thread 16:22:51 also prints 4 16:22:54 Deformative: I used it as an example. 16:22:59 the new thread starts with a copy of the current thread's data stack. 16:22:59 Ah. 16:23:12 Because fork will duplicate mem on write. 16:23:15 2 [ 2 + . ] in-thread -- prints 4, but the current thread still has 2 on the stack. 16:23:23 And make an extra process I do not need. 16:23:27 i imagine other forths are similar. 16:23:42 Deformative: Processes in and of themselves are cheap. All threads in Linux are implemented as processes, for example. 16:23:54 The expense comes when you have to swap the PDBR in the CPU. 16:24:06 kc5tja: not as cheap as erlang threads 16:24:12 Page Directory Base Register, for those who don't know x86isms. 16:24:18 Erlang threads are lame. 16:24:21 why? 16:24:24 slava: They're not true "threads" in the sense that Deformative is talking, I don't think. 16:24:26 * Deformative does not like erlang for some reason. 16:24:34 kc5tja: i don't see why not. 16:24:45 slava: Because, to the kernel, it's all one thread. 16:24:47 I dunno, seems useless to make a new vm for threads when the kernel is already a vm for that. 16:24:52 kc5tja: one thread per cpu, actually. 16:25:02 User-space threading is 100% locked into whatever time slice the kernel allots for that one "meta-thread." 16:25:04 Deformative: sounds like you don't understand the concepts involved. 16:25:10 slava: Right. 16:25:23 i don't see what's wrong with m:n threading. 16:25:28 Well, IMO it would be much better to implement erlang vm's functionality in the kernel itself. 16:25:28 So you have (on a 2-CPU computer) 2 real threads, and N "sub-threads" within those. 16:25:44 Nothing is *wrong* with it. 16:25:49 Deformative: no it wouldn't, because nobody would use a language which does not run on existing opearting systems. 16:25:54 They're just not the kinds of threads Deformative is talking about. 16:26:09 slava: good point. 16:26:37 Anyways, how would threads communicate in forth? 16:26:44 just like in any other language. 16:27:11 Seems particularly unsafe in forth. 16:27:14 why? 16:27:14 And complicated. 16:27:23 its exactly the same. the forth stack nature doesn't enter into the picture at all. 16:27:38 you can either have your shared state with locks, or you can use mailboxes to send data back and forth between threads. 16:27:43 s/send/pass 16:28:11 go download a threaded forth and use it instead of asking here. 16:28:18 or channels, or futures/promises. They'd all fit well with forth. 16:28:32 doublec! 16:28:47 futures would have memory management issues, but if you could sort those out then yeah, they'd work nicely too. 16:28:48 with ficl I spawned multiple ficl instances in seperate threads and communicated with mailboxes 16:29:44 i had many spectacular hangs and crashes :-) 16:29:52 heh why 16:29:53 (due to my code, not ficl) 16:30:01 the mailbox code i wrote was buggy 16:30:04 and it was on a phone 16:30:05 ah. 16:30:06 so hard to debug 16:30:16 doublec: i reproduced your invalid header crash. 16:30:24 and truly spectacularly bad phone api documentation 16:30:29 its easier with certain heap settings. 16:30:31 slava, great! 16:30:43 smaller heap size seems to trigger it more frequently 16:31:05 found it while loading windows native io. never happened when loading other sources, though. 16:31:09 let me know when you've got a fix and i'll try bootstrapping again 16:31:11 yup 16:32:13 have you tried any arm forths on your n800? 16:32:32 I have a 770 16:32:33 :D 16:32:44 not yet 16:32:57 Nokia tablets are rather awesome. 16:33:07 * doublec agrees 16:33:08 i'm not exactly sure what i'd use one for 16:33:13 other than running factor :) 16:33:28 chatting on irc on the bus of course 16:33:36 i can do that with my 8525 :) 16:33:45 I use it mostly for pdfs 16:33:51 ah. 16:34:01 you're 8525 is 2x the cost of the internet tablet :) 16:34:02 Very good for pdf viewing. 16:34:13 doublec: nope, it's 1/0 cheaper cos i got it for free :) 16:34:13 I got my 770 for $140 16:34:19 hehe 16:35:32 The 770 is pretty sturdy too, I really like the case design. 16:35:46 does the n800 have a camera? 16:35:47 But the memory card sucks. 16:36:50 slava, yes 16:37:02 rats 16:37:10 not a very good one tho 16:37:21 but... but... does it have... umm... a windows logo on the back? 16:37:25 let me answer that one for you: NO!!!! 16:37:29 :) 16:37:38 doublec: does the 800 have the usb hack like the 770 does? 16:37:43 for usb host? 16:37:47 Yeah. 16:37:49 With the usb hub. 16:37:53 i seem to remember reading about it 16:37:58 but i haven't tried it 16:38:00 I wish they just put damn usb ports on it. 16:38:02 I did. 16:38:10 Rather fragile and unportable though. 16:41:33 doublec: how's the battery life? my 8525 lasts only about an hour if i'm compiling stuff etc 16:41:40 which is a pain cos i can't take it on the bus and hack :) 16:43:54 Well, my 770 lasts a very long time when the screen is off. 16:44:04 About 3 hours with the screen on. 16:46:08 sure, my phone lasts a long time on standby too 16:46:13 but its no good for hacking :) 16:46:21 i have to keep it plugged in 16:47:32 I dunno if it is stanby. 16:47:39 Because it can still compute while the screen is closed. 16:47:45 ah. 16:48:11 Very efficient arm and dsp. 16:50:50 --- part: happy_guy2 left #forth 16:51:19 i was ssh'd to it while the screen was off doing bootstrap for about 6 hours 16:51:25 that used most of the battery 16:51:43 that's a very high cpu usage tho 17:19:11 --- join: H4n1 (n=hans@p57BBB9FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 17:20:16 --- quit: Quartus (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:20:16 --- quit: H4ns (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:20:16 --- quit: rbarraud (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:20:17 --- quit: nighty- (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:20:17 --- quit: Snoopy42 (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:20:17 --- quit: mem4tim (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:20:30 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-171-007.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 17:20:30 --- join: mem4tim (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 17:25:18 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 17:25:18 --- join: H4ns (n=hans@p57BBB9FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 17:25:18 --- join: nighty- (n=nighty-@66-163-28-100.ip.tor.radiant.net) joined #forth 17:25:18 --- join: rbarraud (n=rbarraud@gateway.quickcircuit.co.nz) joined #forth 17:27:23 --- quit: jdrake_ (Network is unreachable) 17:37:35 --- quit: rbarraud (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:37:35 --- quit: nighty- (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:37:35 --- quit: Quartus (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:37:36 --- quit: H4ns (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:39:34 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 17:39:34 --- join: nighty- (n=nighty-@66-163-28-100.ip.tor.radiant.net) joined #forth 17:39:34 --- join: rbarraud (n=rbarraud@gateway.quickcircuit.co.nz) joined #forth 18:00:58 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 18:03:24 --- join: Al2O3_ (n=Al2O3@c-75-70-5-69.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:03:38 --- quit: Al2O3_ (Remote closed the connection) 18:26:15 --- quit: Al2O3 (Connection timed out) 18:40:41 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-75-70-5-69.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:42:40 --- join: Al2O3_ (n=Al2O3@c-75-70-5-69.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:43:13 --- quit: forther (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:47:19 I am looking for a forth system written in C, any suggestions? 18:48:57 gforth is good if you want/need ANS compatibility and 4p is good if you don't mind losing ANS compatibility :) 18:49:21 gforth is written in C? 18:49:24 Ooh, neat. 18:49:33 I downloaded the wrong package apparently. 18:52:30 the source is at http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/gforth-0.6.2.tar.gz 18:52:48 There are no .c 18:52:50 All .fs 18:53:02 Never mind. 18:53:09 /engine 18:54:23 yup 18:54:28 I am just wondering about the stack construction. 18:54:33 And rot 18:54:55 And the type of the stack. 18:55:30 --- join: Quartus___ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 18:57:08 --- join: forther (n=forther@c-67-180-150-67.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:59:26 Ugh, why can't it be named with something like, oh I dunno, stack.c... 18:59:36 * Deformative hates code that he must look through for days to get. 19:01:20 --- quit: Al2O3 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:11:01 Deformative: That's like, what, most all code ever written? :) 19:12:41 --- join: arke_ (n=arke@p54A7E28F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 19:13:35 kc5tja: most all C code, yes. 19:13:55 C++ too 19:14:11 Properly abstracted D or lisp, I can understand pretty fast. 19:16:11 Deformative - look at ficl or pforth, for that. 19:16:29 Which is more efficient? 19:17:11 To me, there is zero difference between how D is structured and how C++ is structured. 19:17:35 I can grok Lisp provided that the more abstruse looping constructs aren't used. :) 19:17:38 Delegates help. 19:17:40 A lot. 19:18:54 And the arrays are properly abstracted so that you don't get confusing multiple pointers. 19:19:30 Plus no preprocessor to get in the way. 19:19:31 :) 19:19:47 http://www.hans-eric.com/code-samples/d-delegates-look-like-closures/ 19:19:49 Some more too, but this isn't hte channel for that. 19:19:50 I just read that. 19:19:53 That looks nifty. 19:19:54 But... 19:20:06 can the block of code properly capture free variables? 19:20:56 Eh, whoever wrote that should have used lazy instead. 19:20:58 IMO 19:21:17 lazy evaluation is another thing, along with auto as well as nice templates. 19:22:04 Anyways, what is more efficient pforth or ficl? 19:22:12 I've used neither. 19:22:20 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:22:45 Is there a bot here? 19:22:47 ?benchmarks 19:22:56 there is not. 19:23:50 What is bigForth? 19:24:14 a forth system. 19:24:31 Obviously, heh. 19:24:34 Never mind. 19:25:40 bigForth is a subroutine-threaded Forth system for Linux. Not sure of its performance characteristics though. 19:26:01 It does have a GUI wordset, apparently, called MINOS. I've never used it, but I found its existance intriguing. 19:30:03 --- quit: Quartus___ (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:03 --- quit: rbarraud (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:03 --- quit: nighty- (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:03 --- quit: Quartus (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:04 --- quit: mem4tim (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:04 --- quit: Snoopy42 (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:04 --- quit: uiuiuiu (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:04 --- quit: segher (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:04 --- quit: arke_ (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:04 --- quit: gnomon (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:05 --- quit: timlarson (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:05 --- quit: Fractal (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:05 --- quit: Al2O3_ (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:05 --- quit: JasonWoof (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:06 --- quit: edrx (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:07 --- quit: H4n1 (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:07 --- quit: arke (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:07 --- quit: Deformative (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:07 --- quit: kc5tja (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:07 --- quit: forther (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:08 --- quit: madgarden (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:08 --- quit: crc (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:08 --- quit: ccfg (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:09 --- quit: happy_guy1 (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:09 --- quit: maht (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:09 --- quit: ayrnieu (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:09 --- quit: madwork (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:09 --- quit: slava (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:09 --- quit: CyberSpace (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:10 --- quit: uiuiu (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:10 --- quit: cmeme (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:10 --- quit: crest__ (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:10 --- quit: doublec (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:10 --- quit: Off_Namuh (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:10 --- quit: TreyB (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:30:10 --- quit: mrsbrisby (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:43:13 --- join: mrsbrisby (i=nimh@nimh.org) joined #forth 19:43:13 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 19:43:13 --- join: Off_Namuh (i=GPS@gateway/tor/x-bb76aee669f134ca) joined #forth 19:43:13 --- join: doublec (n=doublec@202.180.114.137) joined #forth 19:43:13 --- join: crest__ (n=crest@p5489F047.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 19:43:18 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@unaffiliated/herkamire) joined #forth 19:43:18 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o JasonWoof 19:43:25 --- join: crc (n=crc@pdpc/supporter/active/crc) joined #forth 19:43:25 --- join: forther (n=forther@c-67-180-150-67.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:43:25 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@bas2-kitchener06-1096752101.dsl.bell.ca) joined #forth 19:43:25 --- join: ccfg (n=pitkajus@tuomi.oulu.fi) joined #forth 19:43:25 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o crc 19:43:30 --- join: arke (n=arke@p54A7E28F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 19:43:30 --- join: gnomon (n=gnomon@CPE0050eb372bdb-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 19:43:30 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 19:43:30 --- join: Fractal (i=frax@i.got.the.skillz.to.pay.the.billz.org) joined #forth 19:43:31 --- join: kc5tja (n=kc5tja@c-24-6-87-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:43:31 --- join: H4n1 (n=hans@p57BBB9FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 19:43:31 --- join: Deformative (n=joe@c-68-61-240-49.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:43:31 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o kc5tja 19:43:34 --- join: edrx (i=edrx@189.25.57.254) joined #forth 19:43:36 --- join: segher (n=segher@82-217-247-28.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 19:43:36 --- join: uiuiuiu (n=ian@81.169.184.117) joined #forth 19:43:51 As a state, it's California. As a country code, Canada. 19:43:52 --- join: Quartus___ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 19:43:52 --- join: rbarraud (n=rbarraud@gateway.quickcircuit.co.nz) joined #forth 19:43:52 --- join: nighty- (n=nighty-@66-163-28-100.ip.tor.radiant.net) joined #forth 19:43:52 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 19:43:52 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-171-007.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 19:43:52 --- join: mem4tim (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 19:43:53 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0007e97df149-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 19:43:53 --- join: happy_guy1 (n=gav@147.21.16.3) joined #forth 19:43:53 --- join: maht (n=maht@85-189-31-174.proweb.managedbroadband.co.uk) joined #forth 19:43:53 --- join: CyberSpace (i=HydraIRC@c-68-63-244-236.hsd1.ky.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:43:53 --- join: ayrnieu (n=julian@005M17.oasis.mediatti.net) joined #forth 19:43:53 --- 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pforth is available easily through my package manager (ubuntu) 20:15:13 Deformative: what do you like about it? 20:17:30 I made a new border for my site: http://jasonwoof.com/ 20:18:57 a little silly I think. 20:19:06 but an improvement over the old: http://old.jasonwoof.com/ 20:20:31 --- join: H4ns (n=hans@p57BBB9FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 20:21:43 --- quit: kc5tja (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:21:43 --- quit: H4n1 (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:21:43 --- quit: Deformative (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:24:24 --- join: kc5tja (n=kc5tja@c-24-6-87-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:26:02 --- join: Deformative (n=joe@c-68-61-240-49.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:27:56 --- part: edrx left #forth 20:31:26 JasonWoof, looks pretty good 20:31:47 cool. thanks for looking 20:31:57 the old one was too flat 20:32:18 it'd be great for one-color printing... 20:32:49 very pleased I figured out how to get it so I could edit one corner and the others would automatically match 20:32:57 neat-o 20:33:13 yeah :) 20:33:19 in inkscape (which I like very much) 20:33:56 I cut off the left and bottom that weren't updating, so I had just one corner 20:34:06 then "cloned" the object and flipped the clones around 20:34:34 sounds simple enough 20:34:47 when I update the original, the changes copy over to the clones, but the clones keep their location and mirroring 20:35:02 neat 20:35:08 I just had to line them up right (which is very very easy in inkscape) and fill in the hole in the middle 20:35:34 inkscape has the best allignment and spacing features 20:35:37 --- join: H4n1 (n=hans@p57BBB9FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 20:36:22 I had a guide rule at 500px (the width of the original graphic) and at first I was reluctant to cross it 20:36:45 but once the idea hit, I had fun extending past it and shrinking the vertical part from it 20:38:18 --- quit: H4n1 (Connection timed out) 20:41:24 I actually broke open my forth project today 20:41:28 haven't touched it since January 20:41:38 on the way home I had a great idea for how to do tables 20:41:40 wow, topical ;) 20:41:45 :) 20:42:05 simple jump tables (give index n, it calls nth word) 20:42:12 or lookup tables (like case statements basically) 20:42:45 I have a mechanism for that in Quartus Forth -- select xt one xt two xt three end-select 20:43:04 where one, two, and three, will be selected accordingly for inputs of 0, 1, or 2 20:43:43 I've been wanting a way that is very easy to input, has (if possible) no extra markup after each element in the table 20:43:54 my idea is to have the lookup just look through the source tokens 20:44:06 I'm storing the source as tokens, which are mostly just a reference to the dictionary 20:44:53 ansii pseudo-code: : my-table ' my-table table-exec; foo bar baz qux quux 20:45:33 mine are stored as tokens too 20:45:43 same idea, different syntax 20:46:43 : table-exec dict->src 2+ src@ execute ; 20:46:57 right -- select compiles something similar 20:47:08 : src@ ( n definition -- nth-word ) 20:48:04 hmmm... I wonder if I can make this handle immediates properly 20:48:39 ain't that the sticky wicket 20:49:02 hence the xt syntax in mine 20:49:05 handles everything 20:50:06 does? 20:50:26 oh, you have a word XT 20:50:58 I think mine'll handle immediates propperly if you put them in yellow 20:51:03 Right. : my-table-thingy SELECT XT zeroth XT firs t XT second END-SELECT ; 20:51:09 and I do tok-do instead of execute in table-exec 20:52:05 so funny how in forth what looks like pseudo-code is real code... 20:52:05 showertime. bbiab 20:52:11 k 20:55:37 --- quit: doublec () 20:57:15 --- quit: JasonWoof (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:57:57 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@unaffiliated/herkamire) joined #forth 20:57:57 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o JasonWoof 21:11:52 --- join: H4n1 (n=hans@p57BBB9FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 21:11:52 --- join: Baughn_ (n=svein@084202038064.customer.alfanett.no) joined #forth 21:11:52 --- quit: Baughn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:11:52 --- quit: warpzero (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:14:09 --- join: warpzero (n=warpzero@208.74.136.138) joined #forth 21:16:47 --- join: jdrake__ (n=jdrake@fyodor.hcoop.net) joined #forth 21:23:08 hmmm... won't work without modifying the compiler 21:23:23 which I may do... I was thinking I'd have to make a whole new datatype for tables 21:24:13 --- quit: H4ns (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:24:17 to handle immediates seemlessly, I need them to be in yellow (execute) so the dependancies are compiled properly 21:24:56 but I don't want them to actually be executed when the table-word is being defined 21:28:00 all this to avoid syntax in the table layout? 21:28:50 --- quit: JasonWoof (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:30:27 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-28-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:30:27 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 21:32:40 all this to avoid syntax in the table layout? 21:33:32 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 21:38:42 --- quit: ayrnieu (Connection reset by peer) 21:46:14 I don't have syntax 21:46:25 --- quit: kc5tja (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:47:10 well, I don't have extensible syntax 21:47:18 don't have parsing words 21:47:27 I store the sorce already parsed into tokens 21:49:21 --- join: kc5tja (n=kc5tja@c-24-6-87-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:51:12 man, freenode ain't doin' so well this evening 21:52:39 --- quit: kc5tja (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:39 --- quit: H4n1 (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:39 --- quit: timlarson (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:39 --- quit: arke (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:39 --- quit: Fractal (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:39 --- quit: gnomon (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:52:49 --- join: kc5tja (n=kc5tja@c-24-6-87-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:52:49 --- join: H4n1 (n=hans@p57BBB9FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 21:52:49 --- join: arke (n=arke@p54A7E28F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 21:52:49 --- join: gnomon (n=gnomon@CPE0050eb372bdb-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 21:52:49 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 21:52:49 --- join: Fractal (i=frax@i.got.the.skillz.to.pay.the.billz.org) joined #forth 22:05:31 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@82-217-247-28.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 22:06:27 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:07:02 --- join: ayrnieu (n=julian@005M17.oasis.mediatti.net) joined #forth 22:07:34 right now I build tables rather explicitly: 22:08:29 here 0 , ' ed-up key-c lt, ' ed-down key-t lt, constant ed-cmd-table 22:10:16 create ed-cmd-table 0 , ' ed-up key-c lt, ' ed-down key-c lt, 22:11:05 does> ." and I sometimes once-off one of these." ; 22:12:38 that 0 at the begining is my table size 22:13:11 : lt, , dict->cfa addr->branch , dup ++ ; 22:13:21 ah, then the does> can give you ( -- a n ) 22:13:25 : ++ dup @ 1+ swap ! ; 22:13:59 nah 22:14:04 the count's there if you want it 22:15:50 well, presumably you do, but no sense cluttering the stack with it until you do 22:16:59 words that operate only on ( a n ) are useful; consider the PARTITION of a merge sort, for instance. 22:17:45 but sure. 22:21:23 --- quit: Quartus__ (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:21:23 --- quit: Quartus (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:21:23 --- quit: rbarraud (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:21:23 --- quit: nighty- (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:23:07 on tables, have you read that part of Thinking Forth? 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