00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.11.06 00:07:14 --- join: Off_Namuh (i=GPS@gateway/tor/x-4c6d0de05fd1045d) joined #forth 00:14:58 --- quit: Off_Namuh (Remote closed the connection) 00:20:24 --- quit: Quartus (Connection timed out) 00:20:36 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 00:20:36 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 00:21:42 --- quit: H4ns (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 00:28:08 --- quit: arke (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 00:33:40 --- join: Off_Namuh (i=GPS@gateway/tor/x-3eb0553b395fe2ea) joined #forth 00:36:24 --- join: H4ns (n=Hans@p57BBBABC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 00:50:20 --- join: arke (i=arke@x363.vpn.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de) joined #forth 00:50:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 01:26:25 --- join: arcus (n=ajt@203.173.187.131) joined #forth 02:12:40 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 02:30:05 --- quit: nighty^ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 02:41:54 --- quit: wossname (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:24:23 what is a good beginner's forth? i liked retro-forth, but i have problems compiling it on x86_64 03:24:49 I think most people use GForth these days 03:24:50 Gforth is fine. Don't know if there are any issues on 64-bit 03:25:46 I personally think the best forth for learning most aspects of forth is PygmyForth, but it's very outdated and DOS only 03:25:54 but yeah, gforth should be fine 03:26:41 arke: why pygmyforth? 03:36:58 --- quit: XeF4 (Remote closed the connection) 03:40:20 --- quit: arcus ("Ex-Chat") 03:47:05 The best beginner's forth is forth written by the beginner 03:47:06 xD 03:47:36 I disagree. 03:47:48 Writing a Forth is a lousy way to learn Forth. 03:47:54 * Deformative was kidding. 03:49:13 Well, I have to go. 03:49:15 o/ 04:06:17 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 04:22:36 --- quit: nighty__ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 04:28:05 --- join: wossname (n=w@CPE00195b252b77-CM001a666a6e78.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 04:33:13 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p5489BBF7.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 04:33:45 --- join: KipIngram (n=KipIngra@c-98-198-91-46.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:41:15 --- 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--- quit: arke (Client Quit) 12:52:24 --- join: arke (n=arke@p54A7DE18.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 12:52:48 re arke ... again, and again, and again, ... 12:53:11 huh? 12:53:22 12:46 -!- arke [n=arke@p54A7DE18.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #forth 12:53:24 12:48 -!- arke [n=arke@p54A7DE18.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:53:26 12:48 -!- arke [n=arke@p54A7DE18.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #forth 12:53:28 12:48 -!- arke [n=arke@p54A7DE18.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:53:30 12:49 -!- arke [n=arke@p54A7DE18.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #forth 12:53:41 Oh, I ignore those heh 12:53:44 all within the span of a few minutes. 12:54:23 --- join: forther (n=forther@207.47.34.100.static.nextweb.net) joined #forth 13:07:56 blame irssi :) 13:08:03 ...again... 13:08:07 --- quit: arke ("leaving") 13:08:32 --- join: arke (n=arke@p54A7DE18.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 13:09:05 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 13:09:49 --- quit: arke (Client Quit) 13:11:41 --- join: arke (n=arke@p54A7DE18.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 13:11:41 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 13:12:21 ok it LOOKS like I finally got it figured out >_< 13:12:23 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-a69505bf47aa3cd2) joined #forth 13:12:47 at lunch. 13:17:37 --- join: doublec (n=doublec@202.180.114.137) joined #forth 13:28:25 --- quit: timlarson__ ("Leaving") 13:32:55 Hmm, I cannot decide what language to continue my tour with. 13:34:41 tour? 13:35:10 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 13:35:12 I am just looking for cool languages. 13:35:19 Unique. 13:35:30 Something that changes my view, or adds more thought processes. 13:36:31 Something new. 13:36:32 :) 13:36:45 What have you done so far? 13:37:05 So far, the only language types I really know are like, C-like, Object oriented, Functional, and now forth 13:37:38 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-b8cb1ea95e0a0574) joined #forth 13:37:51 www.squeak.org 13:38:20 fortran 13:39:05 What is fortran like? 13:39:39 old skool 13:39:49 but people are adding bits to it 13:39:52 it seems 13:39:52 Algo-like: Pascal, C, etc. 13:40:01 Algol-like 13:40:03 yeah, but great with numbers 13:40:13 faster than c apaprently 13:40:31 Deformative: what's the point of gaining superficial understanding of a bunch of languages? 13:40:34 pick a few, study them in depth 13:40:56 slava can I have a link to your http server? 13:41:02 the lib? 13:41:06 http://factorcode.org 13:41:14 oh the code itself? 13:41:25 well soem description of the http server.... 13:41:48 http://www.double.co.nz/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=factor.git;a=tree;f=extra/http;h=ea991809456875cf3a3410c8a1b5014c5b37a5cb;hb=HEAD 13:41:59 slava: Well, it is funner, when I learn a new language like none I know, it feels like it opens more thought processes, gives me a new view, another tool in every day life. 13:42:01 Make sense? 13:42:46 I am not in this just for programming, if I just wanted to produce, I would learn C and nothing more. 13:42:56 why? 13:43:04 C is not the best language for all tasks 13:43:19 But it is the most universal. 13:43:24 forth seems insanely awesome 13:43:43 riscOs is not forth is it? 13:44:06 Not that I know of. 14:12:03 --- quit: ygrek ("Leaving") 14:15:40 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 14:19:59 --- join: linxu (n=gav@147.21.16.3) joined #forth 14:20:08 --- nick: linxu -> happy_dude 14:21:31 --- join: nighty^^ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 14:32:30 --- quit: forther ("Leaving") 14:39:46 good evening 14:41:37 --- quit: nighty^ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 14:43:20 --- quit: happy_guy ("Leaving.") 14:57:27 --- join: Off_Namuh (i=GPS@gateway/tor/x-efd4a5600b56b416) joined #forth 15:20:23 hi 15:20:35 --- join: maht (n=maht@85-189-31-174.proweb.managedbroadband.co.uk) joined #forth 15:40:40 --- quit: Al2O3_ ("Eggplant & SenseTalk: Driving Success Through Automation") 16:05:10 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@c-75-70-5-69.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:18:11 muhahaha! I love geeky things like dtach 16:18:14 wow so quiet in here 16:18:14 (similar to screen) 16:18:21 doh 16:18:25 spoke too soon 16:18:26 heh heh 16:18:44 I crashed X by fiddling around with gnash 16:18:55 hassomeone redone x in forth yet 16:18:59 or something better 16:19:01 my music didn't stop, my irc session is still open, etc 16:19:07 like I dunno tk on bare metal or some weirdness 16:19:16 hm 16:19:42 I did a little research on X replacements, but not enough to really get a good idea what's going on 16:20:04 do you find yourself never using file when you use forth? 16:20:08 files/dir 16:20:31 I've never used blocks 16:20:34 always files 16:20:53 except the forth I wrote stored it's sources internally. not in blocks though 16:20:54 once you get hang of forth is it simple to sort amogn files and directories? 16:21:02 well, at first I tried to store them in blocks, but that sucked 16:21:08 hm 16:21:22 I think skills in organizing your files has nothing to do with forth 16:21:37 ok 16:22:02 Im just starting to read about the return stack in starting forth ch5 16:22:06 woa nelly 16:22:12 curve ahead methinks 16:25:16 I did some research on X as well. 16:25:20 X itself is pretty good. 16:25:29 oh? 16:25:29 But X11 is suckish. 16:25:47 isn't x11r6 the current implementation.. 16:25:52 Yeah. 16:25:54 It is suck. 16:26:02 so x standard is good? 16:26:18 Well, in the X server, the code isn't that bad. 16:26:36 But the communication and backwards compatibility is killer. 16:26:45 hm 16:26:54 shouldnt the drivers addresse that not x 16:27:19 The X devs think that backwards compatibility is fine because x11 allows extensions. 16:27:30 Where I believe they should break compatibility and make it not suck,. 16:27:53 what sucks 16:28:03 Have you ever programmed in X? 16:28:06 for rather 16:28:15 no 16:28:20 bash so far 16:28:22 X11 is just a protocol. 16:28:24 Ah, that explains it. 16:28:36 kc5tja: Indeed. 16:28:38 A bad one. 16:28:51 And icccm is a bad standard. 16:29:03 x seesm the only windoing system for linux 16:29:04 When I was discussing this with the X developers, there was interest in research for an X12 protocol, where *everything* is treated as an extension. 16:29:21 Yeah, x12 is rather interesting. 16:29:25 But it will never happen. 16:29:28 IMO 16:29:36 Do you know if X12 will get rid of ICCCM? 16:29:48 Well, they are not related. 16:29:54 here is a question; what kind of gui building is popular in forth? 16:30:03 But if enough people will get behind a protocol change, people with get behind a new IPC manual. 16:30:52 Another thing to remember too is that most of these protocols evolved at a time when shared libraries didn't exist. 16:31:05 --- quit: nighty^^ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 16:31:10 The atom system itself is pretty ingenious, most of X is pretty ingenious, but it is just implemented HORRIBLY. 16:31:11 :) 16:31:21 So modern window management should really be implemented as a shared library, rather than a self-standing process. 16:31:58 Well, window managers are not required by X, they are just a modern phenomena. 16:32:21 Not required, no, but in order to have a consistent look-n-feel across all applications, you need it. 16:32:24 Some guy decided that there should be an application to handle all window management instead of each application handling it's own, and it just caught on. 16:32:37 Then it ended up being the basis of the icccm 16:32:48 Nothing wrong with that idea at all. 16:32:58 hm 16:33:04 I agree. 16:33:14 But, xlib should dynamically load an instance of the wm. 16:33:22 xcb > 16:34:36 Xlib is dynamically loaded with the wm. 16:34:49 XCB is too. 16:35:09 Well, unless the writer static links it, or makes his own protocol api, but that would be weird. 16:35:51 * kc5tja has often considered creating a more modern clone of GEM for use with fbcon. 16:36:15 --- join: edrx (i=edrx@189.25.56.145) joined #forth 16:36:40 XLib may be dynloaded with the WM, but that's nothing. 16:36:43 What I'm saying is, 16:36:46 1) Launch XClock 16:36:53 2) xlib is loaded because XClock depends on it. 16:37:10 3) During XInit(), or whatever, *it* uses dl.so to load libMyWindowManager.so 16:37:23 From there, all window management is handled through libMyWindowManager.so 16:37:26 No IPC is necessary. 16:37:31 Unless talking with other processes, that is. 16:37:38 (which is comparatively rare) 16:38:13 sonuds good to me 16:38:18 Ah, so your suggesting that a window manager be a library rather than a stand alone application. 16:38:32 I am not sure I agree with that, interesting concept though. 16:38:33 Yes. 16:39:05 It's just the exokernel way of handling things, which X11 is all about anyway. 16:39:49 Well, problem with your idea is that it is hardly possible to add features. 16:39:56 How so? 16:40:01 I see it as IMMENSELY liberating. 16:40:12 And the ability to add features is what I really like aboue X11. 16:40:18 about rather 16:40:29 What, in any way, about my system inhibits the ability to add features? 16:40:44 I'm really confused by this statement. 16:41:02 Alright, this is going to be difficult to explain, but let me try: 16:41:22 With the current system you see that there are many many different window managers, all with their own feature set. 16:41:39 Yes. Of course. 16:41:43 iceWM being the best 16:42:14 Well, lets say someone comes up with some crazy feature never used before. 16:42:33 And this person wishes to implement it, but needs some data from the application. 16:42:36 (I would need a precise example.) 16:42:45 Alright, lemmi think a second. 16:44:32 .. 16:45:27 I have it in my mind, but I have a hard time with words. :) Well, lets see, you have an app like an irc client, and this client wants to notify you if you get a /msg while the window is not visible, lets pretend that virtual desktops were not in the standard .so thing, the irc client has no way to queary the wm. That was a horrible example. 16:45:31 Let me think of a better one. 16:46:08 Well, I think of it this way. 16:46:17 What does ICCCM do that making a library _doesn't_ do? 16:46:22 I can't think of a singular example. 16:46:37 Virtual desktops would be the closest example of one, I suppose. 16:46:49 Since somehow, the various instances of the WM would need to share a global state. 16:46:59 Your method would prevent multiple implementations. But at the same time, reduce flexablity. 16:47:11 I disagree completely. 16:47:35 Alright, do you know the Eterm psudo transparency hack? 16:47:43 No. 16:47:53 Oh, well, at this point it is pretty much a standard. 16:48:08 It is how applications with fake transparancy find the root pixmap. 16:48:12 it is an atom. 16:48:14 That's where you grab a copy of the X root bitmap and use that to fake a transparency? 16:48:19 I like eterm 16:48:29 OK. 16:48:32 So, here's the question: 16:48:35 kc5tja: Somewhat. 16:48:48 what is the problem with asking X12 for the current root pixmap? 16:49:12 That is not part of it's implementation. 16:49:21 Hold on here. 16:49:23 Hear me out. 16:49:24 That is why I said you can add your own features using the protocol supplied. 16:49:45 You can still use atoms to communicate this kind of information between processes. 16:50:18 But, personally, the QNX Photon method is VASTLY superior in every way to anything X11 or X12 will ever have. 16:50:40 WOA 16:50:42 qnx 16:50:48 It has a window management system based on libraries, implemented in a microkernel style, and so far as I can tell, can do everything ICCCM can do, and more. 16:50:50 haven't heard of that in like 5 years 16:50:52 Including *real* transparency. 16:51:02 I understand where you are comming from, and I agree to a point, I am just saying that I believe the X design is pretty good, but it just doesn't work realistically, your model would be much better in real life because people do not differ in their own protocol. 16:51:33 It is a crying shame that Photon is patented. :( 16:52:02 photon mapping? Isn't that used all the time in 3d image generation? 16:52:55 No. 16:53:03 (I made a window manager out of curiosity btw.) 16:53:15 Using the concept for the entire GUI, including input event management. 16:53:51 The GUI is architected as a stack of transparencies, so to speak, called (aptly enough) windows. 16:54:06 kc5tja: what is patented there exactly? 16:54:07 Hmm. 16:54:08 A window is free to intercept another window's "photons", and do with it as it pleases. 16:54:33 So I can have a program that implements an "inversion" window, whose interior is a color-inverted rendering of whatever is behind it. 16:54:54 ah 16:54:57 This is where the support for true transparency comes in. 16:54:58 and this is patented? 16:54:59 bastards 16:55:21 Finally, the front-most surface is the display driver itself -- just a "root window" that occupies all the screens you have. 16:55:26 The input events work the other way. 16:55:35 --- part: doublec left #forth 16:55:38 that's cool. 16:55:42 kc5tja: My point is that the .so thing would need to be constantly maintained for changing tech and trends, and it is slightly more difficult for someone to implement the abnormal. 16:55:43 They are treated as photons travelling towards the back of the stack. 16:55:49 A wm-less ui for example. 16:56:14 Deformative: That'd just be a null .so implementation. 16:56:25 kc5tja: what's the api like? 16:56:25 When you said photon, I thought you meant like this: http://codeinsane.deviantart.com/art/Cornell-Box-68846247 16:57:22 http://www.swd.de/documents/manuals/neutrino/photon_en.html -- this explains it. 16:57:32 kc5tja: what if you want to use a very limited set of features from it? 16:57:38 Be a lot of extra bloat. 16:57:49 Especially for embeded systems like my nokia 770. 16:57:51 :) 16:57:58 No, I'm not talking about ray-tracing. 16:58:10 Yeah, I figured that out. :) 16:58:20 slava: I don't have direct experience with the API, but it looks to be somewhat reasonable. 16:59:06 Ah, this looks similar to what I implemented for a 3d engine's gui I was working on. 16:59:12 But I would have to read more to be sure. 17:01:01 3d game engine? 17:01:16 Yeah. 17:01:22 ever play myth 2 17:01:25 More I read, I don't think it is at all the same. 17:01:33 There are some surface similarities with ray-tracing. It is hardly ray tracing though. It treats things in chunks of bitmaps still, rather than individual rays. 17:01:50 It's best to think of it as overlay management. 17:02:03 happy_dude: no 17:02:27 I am in awe of what myth 2 does to my computer screen. 17:03:54 http://projectmagma.net/what/screens/steal-the-bacon.php 17:05:25 Just out of curiosity, what wm do you use kc5tja? 17:06:32 happy_dude: there's no standard gui api for forth 17:06:52 happy_dude: you can do just about any one you want with ffi 17:07:03 is using a ffi hell? 17:07:10 no 17:07:40 only if the API you want to use has complex confusing nested structures 17:09:32 gforth ffi looks like this: 17:09:35 library libX libX11.so 17:09:35 libX XOpenDisplay ptr (ptr) XOpenDisplay 17:09:35 libX XCloseDisplay ptr (int) XCloseDisplay 17:09:43 wow seems small 17:09:56 Im about to find otu about fixed point in startign forth 17:09:57 first line shows what library you want to use 17:10:13 2nd line creates a forth word that's mapped to a function from the library 17:10:28 as does the third line 17:11:56 so the word feeds the function? 17:12:09 eh? 17:12:47 the 2nd line above defines the forth word XOpenDisplay 17:13:08 XOpenDisplay calls the XOpenDisplay function in libX11.so 17:13:15 --- part: mbishop left #forth 17:16:32 sounds like stuff icewm does 17:16:40 Deformative: Depends on my mood and workstation. My laptop uses KDE's default. My workstation at work uses IceWM because IntelliJ IDEA doesn't work well with Ion 3. At home, I used to use Ion 3, but have since switched to XMonad, although sometimes I use IceWM too. 17:17:08 xmonad, let me guess, haskell? 17:17:44 Ah. 17:18:01 * Deformative is not supprised. :) 17:18:06 Why? 17:18:11 What did you expect me to say? 17:18:31 Enlightenment? Blackbox (which I used all the time at word?). 17:18:39 Ion3 + some high level 17:18:43 * slava uses factory on linux 17:18:48 s/high level/ some DE 17:19:27 I use enlightenment 16 with KDE, I really dislike enlightenment 17 17:19:30 factory? a factor wm? 17:19:32 heh 17:19:38 I dislike kwin as well. 17:19:46 whats so nice about ion? 17:19:48 Deformative: I use KDE's default on the laptop only because I don't want to futz with it. 17:20:00 Laptop environments tend to be fickle environments. 17:20:12 Though, given enough time, I might develop the courage to switch to XMonad for it. 17:20:36 happy_dude: yes 17:20:47 I have heard of xmonad, never got around to trying it though. 17:21:10 If you've ever used wmii or dwm, it's like that. 17:21:19 It started as a clone of dwm written in Haskell. 17:21:25 * Deformative grumbles. 17:21:30 ? 17:21:37 dwm stole the name I wanted. 17:21:49 http://proteus.freeshell.org/web/xlib/factory-2005-11-30.png any newer screenies? 17:22:06 heh 17:22:17 deforwm? 17:22:34 Actually DWM as in the D programming language. 17:23:00 happy_dude: it looks different now, it has title bars with widgets 17:23:02 just run it and see 17:23:09 hmmmmm 17:23:14 back in a little 17:23:56 Deformative: Ahh. 17:24:06 I haven't bothered with D; I really do not like the C-style syntax. 17:24:42 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 17:25:10 I really enjoy D. 17:25:52 I would say it is my favorite language, but I guess a better description would be the language I exclusively program in. 17:26:11 I program in other languages, just to fool around, if I really want to make something, D is the only way to go. 17:26:43 really? my java friend who is rich says d is next for him 17:27:18 uh slava I am on the site, ...., how do I get factory going on linux? readme? 17:28:49 happy_dude: D seems to be gaining popularity very recently. 17:29:14 happy_dude: your an archer too? 17:29:16 Neat. 17:30:13 bigtime 17:30:27 I have been trying to get arch onto servers at my last 3 gigs 17:30:36 redhat leave much to be desired. 17:31:28 although this whole slocate repalced with mlocate behind the scenes thing is yakk(since mlocate is by some redhat dude, although updates to db are good idea) 17:32:01 I don't even bother with linux I cannot use arch (non 686) I just go to fbsd. 17:36:54 That's cool that D is gaining in popularity. 17:37:02 freebsd is the second place winner in fun to use unixes I tested 17:37:08 But, I still find that D is way too low-level for my liking overall, with no recourse to increase the level. 17:37:11 many of the comparisons on the wiki for arch are me 17:37:15 * kc5tja is a functional programmer at heart. 17:37:24 And D just doesn't cut the mustard for functional programming. :/ 17:37:27 Im amazed scheme si nto more popular 17:37:41 do you guys ever use scheme? 17:37:43 http://ilyast.deviantart.com/art/kill-bill-30133957 17:37:44 kc5tja: I am in the process of making a functional language interpereter in D. 17:38:04 I have working lambdas, eager and lazy evaluation, and recursion so far. 17:38:36 D has lazy evaluation, and a bunch of cool stuff that can be done with delegates. 17:39:22 isn't haskell doing that already? 17:39:31 (not that Id know) 17:39:41 Doing what? 17:39:59 functional, recursion, lazy eval.... 17:40:24 Oh, well, I wasn't trying to make anything new. 17:40:25 ever try plan9 from bell labs btw 17:40:26 Just some fun. 17:40:44 No, haven't played with plan9. 17:40:57 I got it up n running before I found they had no firefox 17:41:02 heh 17:41:23 I am on a team that is planning to make a new os, but i dunno what is happening there. 17:41:56 Too many differing oppinions I fear. 17:42:31 tunes? 17:42:40 ? 17:43:25 lol 17:44:07 I noticed liek user space kernels or event loops are budding, twisted, poe, tcl, lighttpd is eventy 17:47:15 http://sanderwit.deviantart.com/art/Up-and-Down-29143543 17:54:47 Well, I have some homework to do. 17:54:52 See you all later. 17:54:53 o/ 17:55:24 slava around, uh how do I get factory going? 17:55:43 (or just put exec factory in my xinit after installing factor?) 17:56:14 "factory" run 18:07:41 JasonWoof: Nice. :) 18:09:12 download it.....then ./factory? 18:09:16 .. 18:09:23 what OS are you on? 18:09:55 archlinux 18:10:11 then follow the instructions to compile it 18:10:18 http://factorcode.org/getstarted.fhtml 18:10:26 here? 18:10:47 yes 18:11:40 so first I need factor, compile factor, then factory run? 18:12:00 yes 18:12:30 ok one sec 18:14:35 --- join: nighty^^ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 18:20:54 compiling 18:20:58 the image 18:22:01 lots of good stuff scrolling 18:32:33 --- quit: nighty^ (No route to host) 18:33:19 ok 18:33:24 ready to rumble 18:33:36 starting it from xterm complained about glx 18:33:38 hmmm 18:33:54 slave around? 18:33:58 slava? 18:35:42 what happened when you started it from an xterm? 18:37:07 ./factor& 18:37:07 [1] 3444 18:37:07 [root@myhost Factor]# Xlib: extension "GLX" missing on display ":0.0". 18:37:07 Could not get a double-buffered GLX RGBA visual 18:37:26 ah, you must have a very old video card or X server. 18:38:11 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82945G/GZ Integrated Graphics Controller 18:38:15 :( 18:38:30 unless glx si some module...... 18:38:41 well, recent x.org's have GL enabled by default. 18:38:50 even if you don't get the intel drivers, mesa software rendering should work. 18:38:58 You might have to have a pretty recent 945G driver for GL to work. 18:39:07 although archlinux might be one of those distros where nothing is configured by default. 18:39:10 i hate linux. 18:39:41 nothing would make me happier than xorg, gnome and kde shutting down and admitting that no, linux will never be useful for desktops, and yes, they are all crappy coders 18:40:35 lol 18:40:40 gl 18:40:44 so look for a gl lib 18:40:49 yes arch is barabric but small 18:40:59 and I am not arch god by any measn 18:41:01 means 18:41:02 i have a 250gb disk here, i take 'useful' over 'small' 18:41:21 let me see 18:41:28 glxgears should give a decent frame rate if you have working GL support. 18:41:30 gl is the app I need? 18:42:06 you don't need gl to run factory. 18:42:10 ./factor -run=listener 18:42:15 Or glxinfo. 18:42:54 ok 18:43:05 once I kill icewm I wont be back so easy 18:43:11 so 18:43:22 compile factory first 18:43:31 oh crap 18:43:40 "factory" require save 18:43:40 its not included? 18:43:48 it is, but its not part of the default image. 18:43:57 i gave you the command above. 18:43:59 ./factor -run=listener 18:44:01