00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.11.04 00:05:24 --- join: TreyB_ (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 00:13:25 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:21:56 --- quit: H4ns (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 00:27:27 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 00:29:54 --- quit: TreyB_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:34:53 --- join: H4ns (n=Hans@p57A0F26C.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 00:41:04 --- join: TreyB_ (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 00:49:10 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:10:27 --- join: H4n1 (n=Hans@p57A0F95A.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 01:16:24 please name this word: : ?? ( a -- a' x ) dup cell+ swap @ ; I've called it CCOUNT 01:29:31 --- quit: H4ns (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:50:19 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-b10c6c1d9fa4718d) joined #forth 02:14:59 --- join: doublec (n=doublec@203-211-103-216.ue.woosh.co.nz) joined #forth 02:16:52 --- quit: wossname (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:46:26 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 02:46:28 --- quit: TreyB_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:26:13 --- quit: doublec () 03:43:29 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 03:59:42 --- quit: nighty^ (Connection timed out) 04:01:11 --- join: wossname (n=w@CPE00195b252b77-CM001a666a6e78.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 04:26:52 --- join: TreyB_ (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 04:29:34 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:26:39 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 06:18:06 --- join: gnomon (n=gnomon@CPE0050eb372bdb-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 06:18:50 --- quit: wossname (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:23:23 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 06:26:00 --- quit: TreyB_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:58:49 --- quit: crest__ ("Leaving") 08:04:21 --- join: wossname (n=w@CPE00195b252b77-CM001a666a6e78.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 08:11:53 --- quit: madgarden ("?OUT OF DATA ERROR") 08:12:29 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@bas2-kitchener06-1096651024.dsl.bell.ca) joined #forth 08:17:58 --- quit: nighty__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:19:18 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 08:26:25 In early to work on a web of corporate vendor apps....woa nelly then fun the fun; what's everyone up to? 08:54:06 so much hardware, so little intelligence 09:10:16 --- quit: nighty__ (No route to host) 09:11:17 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 09:12:01 --- join: edrx (i=edrx@189.25.72.187) joined #forth 09:43:32 --- join: iano (n=iosgood@63.105.26.46) joined #forth 09:43:46 --- quit: iano (Client Quit) 09:44:00 --- join: iano (n=iosgood@63.105.26.46) joined #forth 09:46:20 ayrnieu: I'd personally name it something like VCOUNT (vector-count). CCOUNT, to me, sounds like it has something to do with characters. 09:46:52 ayrnieu: Perhaps BCOUNT (buffer-count or byte-count) could be more descriptive, depending on your source context. 09:48:07 good afternoon 09:48:30 Hi crc. 09:48:40 Good morning. 09:54:07 in starting forth, multi line code should be entered as one line? when I hit enter in gforth during a definition it compiles... 09:55:03 You can enter it in multiple lines. It doesn't finish the definition until ; 09:56:46 ok 09:56:47 the 'compiled' message that gforth outputs is just letting you know you're still in compilation state 09:56:51 IM just not used to that 09:56:52 :) 09:57:03 You should be writing definitions in files and feeding them in, at any rate. 09:57:23 ok 09:59:18 5 4 > . 10:04:01 --- join: forther (n=forther@c-67-180-150-67.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:10:59 lading it with use fulename.txt? 10:11:02 loading it 10:11:03 ? 10:11:12 Try it. 10:15:52 include 10:15:55 ah include 10:15:56 ok 10:16:32 I was talking about c:\> gforth file.txt 10:18:42 same effect? 10:18:48 lets see! 10:19:04 yep 10:19:23 this bit about 0 and well formed flags is hard 10:20:09 any non-zero is true; a well-formed true flag is all-bits-set; false is always 0. 10:21:44 it becomes natural quickly 10:22:08 then you start wondering why C and older Forths chose TRUE = 1 10:23:16 what does all bits set mean again? 10:23:25 --- part: edrx left #forth 10:23:35 it means all the bits in the cell are 1. 10:23:36 try this: TRUE . 10:24:02 same as -1 10:24:06 on a 2-complement system 10:24:20 or 0 INVERT 10:24:37 ok 10:26:34 bye 10:26:38 ops 10:26:40 oops 10:45:05 bye 10:47:21 happy_guy, cut that out. 10:47:39 Figure out which window you're in. Change the colour of one of them or something. 10:49:20 sorry 10:52:15 --- quit: wossname (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:06:40 --- join: ttuttle (n=tom@pdpc/supporter/student/gentoo.contributor.ttuttle) joined #forth 11:06:44 --- part: ttuttle left #forth 11:08:06 --- join: Cark (n=blah@d5152CC0B.access.telenet.be) joined #forth 11:17:29 --- quit: nighty__ (No route to host) 11:36:00 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 11:39:58 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 11:59:18 --- quit: nighty^ (Connection timed out) 12:18:08 --- join: Al2O3_ (n=Al2O3@90.sub-70-209-116.myvzw.com) joined #forth 12:23:25 --- nick: H4n1 -> H4ns 12:36:47 --- quit: Al2O3_ ("Eggplant & SenseTalk: Driving Success Through Automation") 12:37:40 --- quit: Al2O3 (Success) 12:37:50 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Ray@unaffiliated/raystm2) joined #forth 12:37:54 --- join: wossname (n=w@CPE00195b252b77-CM001a666a6e78.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 12:56:38 --- join: arke (n=arke@p54A7F8B4.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 12:56:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 13:05:26 --- join: doublec (n=doublec@202.180.114.137) joined #forth 13:15:01 --- quit: iano (Remote closed the connection) 13:57:00 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 14:14:34 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 14:18:50 --- quit: Snoopy42 () 14:20:15 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-139-122.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 14:53:05 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:53:11 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 14:53:11 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 15:10:06 --- join: arcus (n=Miranda@130.195.209.73) joined #forth 15:23:19 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 15:23:19 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 15:45:43 --- join: Quartus___ (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 15:53:15 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:55:44 --- quit: Quartus___ () 15:55:59 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 15:55:59 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 16:01:11 --- quit: forther ("Leaving") 16:25:14 Hmm, so forth is like a shell? It is not compiled to machine code first? Weird that it still manages to be so fast. 16:28:09 depends on the forth, soem compile to machhine code 16:30:34 Many modern systems generate native machine code directly. 16:30:51 although this does not make a system 'modern', nor do all 'modern' systems take this approach. 16:32:01 It's a very common approach nowadays, whereas it was rare to find it ten years ago -- of course anyone can create a new system using a non-native-code approach. 16:35:15 --- quit: nighty__ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 16:35:51 nowadays, there are less CPU architcures to worry aobut 16:35:58 many simply died off :) 16:37:18 --- quit: arcus (SendQ exceeded) 16:37:59 Quartus: so what does the future hold for palm? 16:38:15 Deformative, it's not like a shell, at any rate -- it's not text-interpreted, like Ye Olde Basics. 16:38:27 slava; my crystal ball is as murky as ever. Remains to be seen1 16:38:28 i think even shells are not text interpreted these days 16:38:47 nowadays if you say 'interpeter' most people think along the lines of DTC or bytecode (token threading) 16:38:57 unless they're talking about tcl :) 16:39:02 Forth compiles, whether it's to address lists or native code 16:39:07 yup. 16:39:13 A shell is just a user interface. 16:39:18 although that's more like parsing into a (flat) syntax representation 16:39:28 In that sense, the Forth's outer interpreter is, indeed, a shell. 16:39:33 yup 16:39:56 Deformative question -- is it a shell, or does it compile -- suggests he's referring to the method of execution. 16:39:59 lispers call the 'outer interpreter' a REPL or a listener 16:40:05 It must interperet text because it matches statements with procedures. 16:40:07 to avoid confusion with the actual evaluation method 16:40:43 Deformative, if you want a precise answer, you'll need to disambiguate your terms -- what you specifically mean by 'interpret' and 'compile', and 'shell'. 16:41:18 shell = bourne shell 16:41:41 Deformative: whether you can type commands interactively or not has little bearing on how fast a language implementation can b 16:41:42 e 16:41:54 for example sbcl is a lisp system which is interactive and always compiles to machine code 16:42:08 so even if you type (defun sq (x) (* x x)) (sq 10) then it compiles sq to machine code first 16:42:09 For instance, what I mean is you have a bashrc file that is executed every time bash is started that way it loads all of them, it isn't compiled or anything, just rerun when it is needed. 16:42:20 how do you know bash doesn't compile the file in memory? 16:42:30 it probably doesn't, but there's no way you could observe what evaluation strategy it actually uses 16:42:37 the fact that it can load source interactively is irrelevant 16:42:53 I read bash sorces a long time ago, my memory isn't so great, but I think that's how it works. 16:43:19 some forth systems can produce executables 16:43:22 many just compile in memory 16:43:23 OT: Say what you will about Git, it is SSSLLLOOOWWW at adding new files into a very large repository. :/ 16:43:42 heh 16:43:51 i've noticed git is a tad sluggish on windows 16:43:59 still faster than darcs :) 16:44:13 Actually, Darcs is faster than Git at adding files to a repo. 16:44:22 All I'm doing is adding /etc into a repo. 16:44:27 It should not take in excess of an hour. 16:44:38 ouch 16:44:53 Once added, then Git snows Darcs in performance. 16:45:01 But it's that initial add that is just sucking up so much of my time right now. 16:46:44 Point is, in order to import more functions, it doesn't import a binary, it re-executes a file? 16:46:51 depends on the forth 16:47:08 Depends on what you mean by 'import more functions', and 're-executes a file'. 16:47:08 Interesting. 16:47:20 Quartus: INCLUDED 16:47:27 Deformative: there's nothing magic about gcc and other compilers which spit out .o files 16:47:35 Deformative: any program can generate machine code in memory and execute it 16:47:38 and perhaps save it todisk 16:47:56 INCLUDED does something specific that may or may not be covered by whatever Deformative is suggesting with 're-executes'. 16:47:59 many forths today do not generate executables but do compile to native code 16:48:22 so when you start your program, it loads and compiles the source (which is pretty fast) then runs the compiled code 16:49:08 Ah. 16:49:15 So it just wrapps in the interpereter inot the bin? 16:49:24 what bin? 16:49:33 this hurts. 16:49:36 with a typical forth system, you do 'fooforth myapp.fs' to run it 16:49:37 s/bin/executables 16:49:42 which loads/compiles the source and runs your app 16:50:18 Sorry for asking weird question, I have just been writing quicky little interpereters lately. 16:50:23 and forths let you dump the compiled code in various ways. 16:50:37 some forths can generate turnkeys but that's certainly not universal 16:50:39 I am considering making oen compile, but for now, I just interperet text directly. 16:52:44 well, http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/crenshaw/tiny.html has an interesting tutorial for that sort of thing. 16:53:49 Cool. 17:02:37 I am going to make an extension onto my interpereter for stack-based. 17:15:02 I do not understand the block system. 17:16:08 ignore it, it is obsolete 17:16:38 Oh. 17:16:42 Why is that? 17:17:06 What purpose did it serve in the past? Is what I mean. 17:18:53 deformative - it served as VM, it served as a store for data and files without a filesystem. 17:19:28 Weird. 17:19:46 So it would be for like, a very small device that doesn't have a modern unix kernel? 17:19:51 Like a calculator or something? 17:20:39 sure. 17:21:28 Thanks for clearing that up for me. 17:22:36 if you ever get curious about them, Pygmy Forth and Enth/Flux both have decent, integrated block editors and such. 17:26:55 This is lots of fun, can anyone recommend some other unique language? (minimalist is perfered) The paradigms I have used so far is Object oriented, Imperitive, Functional, and now I am using stack with forth. 17:28:07 I was thinking like, Oz for logic, but it looks a bit big. 17:28:20 Oz covers pretty much every paradigm 17:29:19 I like languages with very narrow paradigm. 17:30:01 Funner for some reason. 17:30:47 oz also has unbearably ugly syntax for some reason 17:31:24 It has a unique syntax, but I like it. 17:31:51 well, i was making a subjective judgement, i'm not claiming its unviersally bad 17:32:44 deformative - Forth is not a language with a very narrow paradigm, and 'stack-oriented' isn't really its paradigm. Read http://thinking-forth.sf.net/ 17:33:45 yeah. 17:33:51 stacks are not the primary domain of discourse in a forth program 17:33:54 I mean it is very simple, not with a bunch of parts from other styles thrown in. 17:34:18 Anyways, I am going to get back to reading now. 17:34:22 Thanks for the help. 17:35:37 anyway, to continue a shallow tour of unique languages: http://q-lang.sf.net/ http://www.jsoftware.com/ http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page 17:36:25 http://www.inform-fiction.org/ 17:37:09 Hmm, 17:53:56 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 18:32:46 --- join: saon_ (n=saon@207.138.42.211) joined #forth 18:33:02 --- nick: saon_ -> saon_top 18:41:47 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:47:01 --- quit: saon ("leaving") 19:14:15 --- join: arke_ (n=arke@p54A7DC2F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 19:30:28 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 19:32:26 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:32:27 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 19:50:37 Deformative: The reason Forth does have 'many styles from other languages' is because it likely existed before you were even born. 19:50:50 I was born in 1975, and Forth was born in 1968. 19:50:57 It predates me. 19:50:59 kc5tja: you're teh old!!1!!! 19:51:16 And, yet, in 1975, programmers (commercial and academic) were still boggling at the concept of structured programming. 19:51:37 Also, the ideas of functional programming were ONLY JUST beginning to precipitate from academic research. 19:51:49 that's still the case today 19:52:38 slava: Research is still happening, sure, but to explain it by analogy, the accretion disc of intellectual matter is now starting to form planets. 19:52:47 Gravitational collapse has well under way. 19:52:59 s/has/is/ 20:10:36 times they are a changin' 20:37:55 --- quit: gnomon (Remote closed the connection) 20:46:30 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 21:04:39 --- quit: nighty^ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 21:27:49 --- quit: nighty__ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 21:28:20 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 21:37:13 --- join: rhythmicmayhem (n=danny@h242.225.39.162.ip.alltel.net) joined #forth 21:39:30 --- quit: doublec () 22:15:37 --- join: TreyB_ (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 22:18:25 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:22:59 --- quit: TreyB_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:27:13 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 22:37:03 --- join: doublec (n=doublec@203-211-101-150.ue.woosh.co.nz) joined #forth 22:47:49 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-2c756901fa9a9ebf) joined #forth 23:07:48 --- join: TreyB_ (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 23:07:48 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:25:40 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 23:42:11 --- quit: TreyB_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:43:32 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.11.04