00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.11.02
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11:19:37 <Quartus__> Hi.
11:19:58 <Al2O3> hi
11:20:44 <Quartus__> carborundum? Beryllium?
11:22:40 <Quartus__> alumina.
11:23:08 <Quartus__> I get there eventually. :) what's new?
11:25:03 <Al2O3> Aluminum Oxide, or ruby
11:25:15 <Al2O3> not much, just hanging out and working
11:25:26 <Quartus__> Ah.
11:25:39 <Quartus__> same here.
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11:30:15 <JasonWoof> ooo, working
11:30:22 <JasonWoof> I've done that
11:30:32 <JasonWoof> and wouldn't my clients like it if I did some now...
11:45:40 <happy_guy> wow Im on chapt 4 of starting forth, nested if then statements!!!!!
11:45:47 <happy_guy> more pwere captnnn!
11:47:44 <happy_guy> okay I know Im getting ahead of myself....but here goes; does forth support message passing a la smaltalk?
11:48:04 <happy_guy> such that progams can communiate from server to server?
11:51:00 <JasonWoof> message passing?
11:51:14 <JasonWoof> as I understand it, forth is more low-level than that
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12:12:43 <slava> that's not what smalltalk message passing means
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13:17:27 <happy_guy> oops
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13:51:03 <happy_guy> so hey no one is talking 
13:51:07 <happy_guy> everyone asleep
13:51:07 <slava> yo yo
13:51:13 <happy_guy> or finsihing last minute projects?
13:51:22 <happy_guy> or gearing up for pats v colts on sunday?
13:51:30 <happy_guy> slava hows it going
13:52:16 <slava> working on factor. testing turnkey app deployment on os x and debugging callbacks on windows ce
13:52:29 <happy_guy> no linux?
13:52:32 <happy_guy> :(
13:54:43 <slava> well, if i could get my linux/arm board going again...
13:55:32 <happy_guy> arm hm who makes that processor again?
13:55:41 <happy_guy> i686 not appealing?
13:55:49 <slava> i support x86 for sure
13:55:53 <happy_guy> is biz good?
13:55:59 <slava> biz?
13:56:04 <happy_guy> business
13:56:13 <happy_guy> rewards for all this work
13:56:17 <slava> i'm not doing any business right now unfortunately
13:56:20 <happy_guy> oh
13:56:34 <happy_guy> so you do support p4 3gz
13:56:57 <happy_guy> ('hyperthreaded' but damned if I know aht that means except my linux sees it as 2 procs)
13:57:07 <slava> no, we don't support anything > 2ghz
13:57:22 <happy_guy> 1
13:57:32 <happy_guy> what!
13:57:46 <happy_guy> why would that be or are ye makign fun of me?
13:58:31 <slava> i'm making fun of you,
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14:08:13 <happy_guy> (i knew it)
14:08:56 <happy_guy> didn't find anything about the http library....first pass over the factor site?
14:09:50 <slava> extra/http/server, extra/http/client in the download
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14:14:30 <Quartus__> hey slava
14:14:40 <slava> hey
14:14:57 <slava> Quartus__: i'm working on 2.8 ghz p4 support. had to skip 2.4 ghz, too tricky.
14:15:33 <Quartus__> you're kidding, I hope :)
14:15:43 <slava> yes, see above
14:15:54 <Quartus__> So I see
14:24:51 <happy_guy> I'm guessing its totally the same architure wise n all.
14:24:58 <happy_guy> (oh me ignorant)
14:26:45 <kc5tja> Intel x86 architecture in any form is generally thoroughly unappealing.  It's supported only because we HAVE to.
14:26:53 <slava> i don't mind x86.
14:27:07 <kc5tja> I don't mind it, but I don't LIKE it either.
14:27:14 <kc5tja> Given my choice, I'll take a RISC over x86 any day.
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14:27:43 <kc5tja> Heck, compared to the x86 architecture, even 680x0 was overwhelmingly superior.
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14:27:55 <Quartus__> you've always been a RISC-taker
14:28:04 <JasonWoof> oh god
14:28:14 <JasonWoof> hehe
14:28:35 <slava> haha
14:29:17 <kc5tja> yeah, I like RISCy business.
14:35:01 <Quartus__> slava, poppavic has gone into high-gear, dispensing insane home-spun wisdom almost around the clock
14:35:08 <slava> nice
14:35:47 <Quartus__> he's in a terminal phase I think
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14:35:51 <snowrichard> hi
14:35:54 <Quartus__> of whatever it is he has
14:36:01 <Quartus__> hi snowrichard
14:37:43 <happy_guy> ok in short words what is ARM ? I know RISC is reduced instruction set, faster eh?
14:37:58 <happy_guy> and who makes commodity ARM
14:37:59 <kc5tja> ARM is a RISC CPU architecture.
14:38:03 <Quartus__> happy, hit the wikipedia article
14:38:04 <kc5tja> ARM is made by virtually everyone.
14:38:51 <snowrichard> I've got my solar powered laptop now lol
14:39:09 <Quartus__> how'd you get a sun in there? :)
14:39:31 <snowrichard> nau a 12v battery, inverter, and solar panel
14:40:23 <Quartus__> that's cheating
14:40:31 <happy_guy> are arm desktop and server machines uncommon?
14:40:36 <happy_guy> expensive vs i686?
14:40:57 <snowrichard> sharp zaurus was a linux pda that is arm
14:41:46 <happy_guy> oh
14:43:04 <snowrichard> anyone know xterm options to increase font size offhand?
14:43:28 <snowrichard> never mind I'm readin man
14:43:58 <kc5tja> If you hold CTRL and use the right mouse button, you can alter font-size while it's running.
14:46:16 <slava> there are no arm desktop or server machines
14:46:16 <slava> heh
14:50:12 <kc5tja> I think there are still small quantities of Acorn RISC machines made, IIRC.
14:50:14 <kc5tja> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyonix
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15:06:48 <Quartus__> I have an old Zaurus.
15:07:24 <snowrichard> oh thanks
15:07:29 <snowrichard> much more readable
15:07:34 <snowrichard> sorry had  a phone call
15:07:37 <happy_guy> wow
15:07:52 <happy_guy> an altenative desktop machine and os completely
15:11:56 <happy_guy> so whats going on people?
15:12:01 <happy_guy> what are people up to lately?
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15:16:44 <JasonWoof> learning fancy javascript tricks
15:16:59 <snowrichard> compiling kde
15:17:08 <JasonWoof> lately I've been making website galleries
15:17:29 <JasonWoof> I want to have the slideshow thing pre-load the next image
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15:19:46 <JasonWoof> I just helped CRC get toka working will on ppc linux
15:19:55 <JasonWoof> s/will/well
15:21:25 <snowrichard> I looked at toka
15:21:45 <snowrichard> haven't compiled it on my 64 bit linux yet
15:21:48 <JasonWoof> I haven't really looked at the documentation
15:22:02 <JasonWoof> mostly just played with the ffi stuff, since that's what appeared to not be working
15:22:28 <JasonWoof> turns out ffi was just fine, it's just that one of the .so libraries that came with toka wasn't linked right
15:22:40 <snowrichard> ffi? links to native code?
15:22:49 <JasonWoof> yep :)
15:22:56 <JasonWoof> from libSDL.so
15:23:04 <JasonWoof> 1 import SDL_Delay
15:23:09 <JasonWoof> 1 import SDL_Init
15:23:10 <JasonWoof> etc
15:23:31 <snowrichard> installed SDL yesterday as a dependency, I've never used it myself
15:23:38 <JasonWoof> I love SDL
15:23:43 <snowrichard> for audacious
15:23:45 <JasonWoof> really simple, good events interface
15:24:03 <JasonWoof> meant for games... doesn't do multiple windows or clipboard
15:24:40 <JasonWoof> the game tathi and I hacked on for a few years uses SDL for sound and video
15:25:14 <JasonWoof> great game: http://jasonwoof.org/vor
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15:25:33 <snowrichard> I remember my brother and his friends working on a basic text-based sim called Santa Paravia or something like that
15:25:50 <JasonWoof> oh wait... you're using gentoo...  emerge -av vor
15:25:54 <snowrichard> trs80 model III basic
15:27:03 <snowrichard> my kde compile finished. I'll be changing session managers and rebooting probably or at least logging out of x
15:28:44 <JasonWoof> it's in freebsd and gentoo. still hoping it'll make it into debian
15:29:05 <JasonWoof> wait... you're actually going to use the KDE desktop?
15:29:15 <JasonWoof> what's gotten into you man?!
15:29:25 <snowrichard> huh?
15:29:35 <snowrichard> fluxbox is a little spartan 
15:30:21 <JasonWoof> is fluxbox the default gnome thing?
15:30:36 <snowrichard> no its just the first window manager I installed
15:30:44 <JasonWoof> ahh
15:30:44 <snowrichard> after installing xorg
15:30:53 <JasonWoof> wanted something that didn't take a couple days :)
15:31:09 <JasonWoof> I like a certain kind of spartan
15:31:24 <JasonWoof> I like my windows to automatically maximized
15:31:34 <JasonWoof> used Ion for years
15:31:37 <JasonWoof> now I'm using wmii
15:31:43 <snowrichard> rc-update delete xdm
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15:32:01 <JasonWoof> hehe
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15:37:53 <snowrichard> in KDE now
15:38:49 <snowrichard> JasonWoof
15:38:53 <snowrichard> hi
15:38:57 <JasonWoof> hi
15:39:16 <JasonWoof> did "rc-update delete xdm" kill your X session
15:39:50 <JasonWoof> also, you should know that KDE is evil
15:39:50 <snowrichard> actually that wasn't the right thing to do.      I had to edit a file called xdm in /etc/conf.d
15:39:55 <JasonWoof> evil I say!
15:40:44 <snowrichard> do you have a merchant account for your online sales? or just paypal?
15:41:00 <JasonWoof> just paypal
15:41:22 <snowrichard> what do you sell?
15:41:40 <JasonWoof> two paypal accounts, and some forms to direct people to the appropriate one (charging them the processing fee if they're paying by credit card)
15:41:53 <JasonWoof> no producs
15:42:01 <JasonWoof> I do web-hosting and web development
15:42:08 <JasonWoof> and a little design
15:42:27 <JasonWoof> some of my clients prefer to pay online
15:42:32 <JasonWoof> especially the one in sweden :)
15:43:58 <snowrichard> if you hit my ip on port 80 you'll see a web server, got a little project I'm testing for my brother, no where near complete yet
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15:45:39 <snowrichard> still trying to decide on what to do it in really, he's looking at ruby on rails and/or some CMS sysetm
15:45:41 <snowrichard> system
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15:46:11 <JasonWoof> you're missing <html><head><title></title></head><body> etc
15:46:24 <snowrichard> yeah I was lazy
15:46:25 <snowrichard> lol
15:46:29 <snowrichard> so it doesn't validate
15:46:44 <snowrichard> I'll fix it sometime
15:46:48 <JasonWoof> well, you can make a template later, and paste that stuff in the middle
15:46:59 <snowrichard> quanta has the template
15:47:03 <JasonWoof> I've got a nice template engine if you're interested
15:47:09 <JasonWoof> jasonwoof.com/metaform/
15:47:12 <tathi> all you really need are html and title
15:47:24 <tathi> and maybe a doctype
15:47:25 <JasonWoof> tathi: and head and body
15:47:34 <tathi> they're not required
15:47:37 <JasonWoof> really?!
15:47:45 <JasonWoof> I thought title was required to be in head
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15:47:49 <tathi> well, maybe head.  But I don't think so...
15:48:10 <JasonWoof> I've not really looked at html < v4
15:48:19 <JasonWoof> I use xhtml strict
15:49:11 <snowrichard> then I guess my dmz setup in the router is ok
15:49:14 <JasonWoof> if you don't have the xhtml strict doctype then the browsers don't do what the css specs say
15:50:15 <JasonWoof> weird stuff like the "height" property don't work right
15:50:47 <JasonWoof> I know only CSS geeks like me use properties like "width"...
15:51:09 <snowrichard> getting a soda
15:51:36 <snowrichard> root beer
15:51:42 <JasonWoof> boot rear
15:51:52 <snowrichard> may have the hieneken before I go to sleep
15:53:33 <tathi> hmm.  OK, xhtml does require head and body
15:53:49 <tathi> what problems were you having with "height" in html?
15:54:48 <JasonWoof> the spec says that "width" and "height" don't include the margins and padding
15:55:13 <JasonWoof> browsers don't actually do it that way unless you have the xhtml strict doctype
15:55:51 <tathi> which spec?
15:56:11 <tathi> In CSS1 the width and height did include the margins and padding, I'm almost positive
15:56:11 <JasonWoof> css1
15:56:19 <JasonWoof> really/
15:56:21 <tathi> because I remember thinking it was brain-dead of them to design it that way
15:56:51 <tathi> oh, well, maybe not the margins
15:56:57 <tathi> but the border and padding are included
15:57:01 <tathi> which is extremely annoying
15:57:17 <tathi> if you want to do a full relative layout you have to wrap everything in an extra layer of divs or something
15:57:25 <JasonWoof> The width of an element is the width of the content, i.e., the distance between left inner edge and right inner edge. The
15:57:28 <JasonWoof> height is the height of the content, i.e., the distance from inner top to inner bottom.
15:57:47 <tathi> oh, no wait, I have it backwards
15:57:49 <tathi> never mind
15:58:20 <tathi> but I don't think you need xhtml strict; I believe most any doctype tag will do
15:59:16 <tathi> when I was having trouble with it, some guy on one of the web design channels told me the old behavior was triggered by not having a doctype
16:00:13 <tathi> html is a pain in the ass :)
16:00:29 <JasonWoof> http://www.quirksmode.org/css/quirksmode.html
16:05:19 <JasonWoof> ok so strict vs non-struct mostly just changes how images are displayed
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16:11:30 <JasonWoof> here's a table of different doctypes, and what the browsers do with them
16:11:40 <JasonWoof> there are lots of doctypes that do totally different things in different browsers
16:11:45 <JasonWoof> some that always give you the old quirksmode
16:12:01 <JasonWoof> and some that always give you standards mode (ie actually doing what CSS1 spec says)
16:13:03 <tathi> yeah, saw that
16:13:36 <tathi> The bit that I got tripped up on was that from CSS1 to CSS2, they changed where you set the canvas size.
16:13:49 <JasonWoof> heh
16:13:53 <tathi> under CSS1, you can set width=100%, height=100% on body
16:14:02 <tathi> CSS2 says "on the root element of the document tree"
16:14:15 <JasonWoof> oh, right, window size
16:14:22 <tathi> I didn't think about it and blithely assumed that body *was* the root
16:14:31 <JasonWoof> I have no idea how to do anything in CSS to do with the window size
16:14:50 <tathi> got a couple people in one of the channels here pretty annoyed at me before they figured out why I was confused :)
16:14:57 <tathi> well, no, not window size.
16:15:18 <tathi> I wanted something to fill the whole window height
16:15:25 <JasonWoof> ouch
16:15:28 <JasonWoof> no idea how to do that
16:15:53 <tathi> i.e. <div style="height:100%">...</div>
16:15:53 <JasonWoof> is that possible?
16:16:12 <tathi> sort of
16:16:15 <JasonWoof> heh
16:16:30 <JasonWoof> yeah, it seemed to me that the more recent CSS standards really didn't want you to know how big the window was
16:16:38 <JasonWoof> or really think in terms of the window
16:16:59 <tathi> the trouble is that if whatever is in the div is higher than the screen height, it will get treated as overflow (either cut off, or given a scroll bar, or just displayed)
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16:17:22 <JasonWoof> I don't make resizable websites. I pick a width. Some have a fixed height, but most are just as tall as they need to be to fit all the content
16:17:26 <tathi> yeah.  you have to do "html: { height: 100% }"
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16:17:56 <tathi> Sure.  I was trying to get cute and have a menu bar with a background that would be at least as tall as the screen
16:18:03 <tathi> and always at least as long as the rest of the document
16:18:08 <tathi> oops, gotta run.
16:18:30 <JasonWoof> oh
16:18:43 <JasonWoof> yeah, I haven't played with position: fixed
16:18:55 <JasonWoof> ttyl
16:21:54 <JasonWoof> only thing I do that has to do with the window width at all is centering my page in the window
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16:38:16 <happy_guy> is there a room about riscos?
16:39:21 <happy_guy> iceWM is my fav window mgr
16:39:33 <happy_guy> hows ion?
16:48:00 <happy_guy> trying hellforth
16:48:02 <happy_guy> ..
16:48:09 <happy_guy> wow talk about an easy install...
16:48:20 <happy_guy> are things really this easy once you understand them?
16:48:24 <happy_guy> :)
16:57:37 <happy_guy> (now to undertand diff between hf and hf-mega...)
16:57:45 <happy_guy> (google not helping)
17:03:14 <happy_guy> everyone sleeping
17:03:28 <happy_guy> helforth has slightly different behavior that gforth
17:03:51 <happy_guy> oh perhaps not
17:03:53 <happy_guy> hm
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17:16:08 <crc> happy_guy, helforth is not an ANS compliant forth, so there may well be differences between it and gforth
17:21:15 <happy_guy> I have a question
17:22:31 <happy_guy> : /check dup 0= if ." invalid " drop else / then ;
17:22:37 <happy_guy> this cases error in gforth'
17:22:58 <happy_guy> ch4 starting forth p3
17:23:28 <happy_guy> hm
17:23:33 <happy_guy> k gota go see saw4
17:24:22 <crc> happy_guy, it works for me in gforth 0.6.2
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19:41:43 <ayrnieu> a sectioned string: http://paste.lisp.org/display/50191
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19:44:31 <ayrnieu> (with a bug that I just found.)
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20:09:46 <snowrichard> hi
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22:02:47 <cybercobra> Best book on Forth?
22:03:39 <Quartus> There are some links in the topic.  Thinking Forth is a good book.
22:05:59 * saon seconds
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22:08:07 <cybercobra> even about Forth Application Techniques and the Forth Programmer's Handbook?
22:08:12 <cybercobra> s/about/above
22:08:27 <Quartus> what do you mean?
22:09:47 <cybercobra> Thinking Forth is prefered to two I mentioned from Amazon?
22:09:54 <cybercobra> s/two/the two
22:11:30 <cybercobra> well, I suppose that's implied. nm. thanks!
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22:11:43 <Quartus> ah, you mean in preference to those?  For what, a basic primer? Or just in general?
22:12:30 <saon> thinking forth is also available online for free
22:15:08 <Quartus> no no, he has conversed all he is going to with we mere mortals
22:16:56 <saon> is it not available online anymore?
22:17:24 <saon> oh, ah, i see
22:17:32 <saon> our questioner left
22:17:41 * saon lacking powers of observation
22:17:47 <Quartus> it's cybercobra, he couldn't bear the effrontery of being asked to clarify his question
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22:42:09 <Quartus> ...
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22:43:32 <JasonWoof> howdy
22:43:37 <Quartus> hey
22:47:09 <JasonWoof> I'm checking out toka, crc's latest
22:47:21 <Quartus> any thoughts so far?
22:57:21 <JasonWoof> looks neat
22:57:35 <JasonWoof> just reading through the examples
22:57:48 <JasonWoof> he's got an example file that makes it more forth-like
22:57:56 <JasonWoof> that was a nice read because it shows the differences
22:58:22 <JasonWoof> I don't like the if/else syntax
22:58:59 <JasonWoof> goes like this:   flag [ executed it flag is true ] ifTrue
22:59:36 <JasonWoof> or:  flag [ true code ] [ false code ] ifTrueFalse
23:00:39 <JasonWoof> generally the system seems very clean and handy
23:00:47 <JasonWoof> has a nice ffi
23:01:15 <JasonWoof> comes with a graphics api, and nice console code
23:02:10 <JasonWoof> re ifTrue... I'm fine with the brackets, I just don't like having to scan ahead to find out what's being done with the block
23:02:57 <JasonWoof> I like smalltalk conditionals just fine
23:03:12 <JasonWoof> bool.ifTrue: [ true code ]
23:03:45 <JasonWoof> ok, time for a shower and 9 or 10 hours of sleeping :)
23:04:02 <Quartus> I'm sure there's some compelling argument for the way he's got it, but I agree with you in terms of how it reads
23:04:16 <JasonWoof> yeah, I'm going to ask him about it
23:19:17 <slava> toka conditionals are stolen from factor? :)
23:25:05 <JasonWoof> ok
23:25:10 <JasonWoof> slava: why are they that way?
23:25:27 <slava> well, considering the alternatives
23:29:47 <JasonWoof> ok, I'm off to bed
23:29:53 <JasonWoof> goodnight boys
23:29:57 <Quartus> ciao
23:31:40 <slava> hey, i'm not a boy
23:31:42 <slava> i'm a MAN
23:31:54 * slava does the PoppaVic dance
23:32:18 <Quartus> now spew nonsensical life lessons
23:32:33 <slava> not right now, gotta go for a beer run or the sibs start beatin' on my wife
23:32:45 <Quartus> don't forget the chores
23:32:52 <slava> there's chores, and then there's autoshit
23:32:54 <slava> pick yer poison
23:32:58 <slava> they don't teach you this at college
23:33:17 <Quartus> now comment on your incredibly advanced age (47) and great experience with all things
23:33:26 <slava> i gots grey hairs
23:33:27 <slava> i'm OLD
23:33:31 <Quartus> that's the ticket
23:33:36 <Quartus> now you're on the trolley
23:34:14 <arcus> slava: I think you need to berate us for being kids, too. 
23:34:33 <arcus> and lacking things that everyone had in your yoof. 
23:34:58 <slava> Quartus: wasn't he working on a Forth VM at some point?
23:35:01 <slava> did anything come of that?
23:35:05 <Quartus> He's been on a grand spree of late, beyond his usual standards
23:35:16 <Quartus> slava, as far as I can tell he wrote header files for code that was then never written.
23:35:20 <Quartus> Nothing else.
23:35:23 <slava> ah.
23:35:41 <slava> header files, allowing generations of c programmers to appear to be coding when they're actually not.
23:35:58 <slava> you can spend a whole afternoon polishing the indentation and field names of your structs, etc.
23:36:06 <slava> put the #define's in a nice block. think of some fancy constants.
23:36:17 <slava> add some #ifdefs.
23:36:23 <Quartus> lately his inanity has taken on a new character -- he doesn't talk about C on ##c, instead he tells people the right and moral way to live.  The world according to Pete.
23:36:34 <Quartus> It's looney.
23:36:39 <slava> if you want to be a good C programmer, well, morality is the first step
23:36:51 <slava> otherwise you're just part of the hivemind which perpetuates autoshit
23:38:36 <Quartus> you're only a pale shadow of the real thing.
23:39:06 <slava> does he claim to have achieved a state of enlightenment, or is he simply further along the path than the rest of us?
23:39:09 <Quartus> <PoppaVic> jm^:  there is /NO/ excuse for progating autoshit for a silly tool. It was never intended for that.
23:39:58 <Quartus> <PoppaVic> BTW, dive deep: atheists BELIEVE as deep as any religious nut
23:43:04 <Quartus> <PoppaVic> Folks and IRC remind me of the Old Days.. Pre even eascii. Folks don't want to go there, or we'd then discuss why S-100 went sour. Just.. don't
23:43:14 <Quartus> yes, the Old Days.  Old Days.
23:43:39 <slava> heh.
23:43:54 <slava> we would walk 7 miles to school, through snow, uphill both ways.
23:44:43 <Quartus> Pre ascii.  Which was published in '63.  When this idiot was almost... 3!
23:45:03 <slava> hahaha
23:45:19 <Quartus> He must be referring to the critical work he did on systems when he was 2.
23:45:43 <Quartus> The Old Days, ladies and gentlemen.
23:45:47 <Quartus> Old.   Days.
23:45:51 <slava> he's old enough that when they were developing multics, he _was_ the old curmudgeon 
23:46:21 <Quartus> sure, he fought with Babbage over whether to make the Analytic Engine gunpowder-based
23:47:16 <Quartus> He knew binary when it was just 0, before they added the 1.
23:48:43 <slava> heh.
23:51:48 <arcus> back in those days, addition was just concatenation
23:58:50 <slava> PoppaVic invented binary, and then saw all his good work go to waste as soon as humanity discovered autoshit
23:59:01 <slava> it was all for nothing
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.11.02