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11:10:54 <twb> I have a silly question.  Can one "compile" a Forth program? 
11:13:23 <Frek> there are forth compilers, so I guess that means yes
11:14:06 <twb> Byte compilers?
11:14:27 <Frek> no I suppose you mean "to native code" compilers
11:15:37 <Frek> forthcmp (dos), powermops (macintosh) for example
11:15:54 <twb> Neto.
11:16:02 <twb> *neato
11:16:10 <male> What are you doing here, twb?
11:16:52 <male> Get tired of trolling on #ratpoison?
11:17:36 <twb> male: jordanb was bitching in #emacs that automatic memory management always results in programs that use up lots of memory.  So I looked on the shootout and noticed that GForth was top of the list of implementations of languages that support automatic memory management.
11:18:40 <male> Well, the traditional Forth form of memory management is low/high water marking.
11:19:22 <male> That is, you break your program up into small parts, which just allocate all they need and free it instantly when they're done.
11:19:46 <male> Kind of like the philosohpy of never using free() in short-running C programs.
11:21:26 <Frek> automatic memory management can also counter programs using up lots of memory as gc implementations kind of makes memory leaks non existant 
11:21:32 <male> But usually when people talk about the memory footprint of Forth programs, they're talking about the compliled code, not program data structures, which can be as big or small as you like.
11:21:49 <twb> Frek: I didn't say I *agreed* with jordanb
11:22:07 <twb> male: understood.
11:22:10 <Frek> I didn't say you did
11:22:12 <male> Yes, there have been many Forth-like languages written with built-in GC.
11:22:57 <Frek> but anyway this is the same arguments people been having since operating systems begun using virtual memory
11:23:23 <male> I've always felt that garbage collection should be hardware assisted and performed by the OS.
11:23:30 <male> Just like other memory management.
11:23:49 <Frek> well memory managment is often handled by respective languages runtime 
11:23:53 <male> But as it is, you pay a 20-50% penalty for GC.
11:24:21 <Frek> the kernel/os allocator is usually pretty dumb and often fairly slow too 
11:24:52 <male> Frek: I'm talking about handling the MMU.
11:25:41 <male> There is tagging support that can be implemented in hardware which cuts the cost of GC significantly.
11:26:02 <twb> male: you are talking about the kind of hardware optimizations found in lispms?
11:26:17 <male> twb: Something like that.
11:26:28 <Frek> male, I think it would be extremely difficult to do GC in hardware on current hardware
11:26:28 <male> Although it need not be cons oriented.
11:27:00 <male> Frek: Hardware GC exists. But it certainly isn't mainstream.
11:27:16 <twb> I don't really deal with hardware, but I can't help wondering if CPU manufacturers are doing that stuff more and more but then laying a silly x86 interface on top.
11:27:48 <Frek> one thing I'm actually wondering about is why ram compression went away
11:27:54 <male> CPU designers no longer know or fully understand how their chips work.
11:28:06 <male> They're simply too complex.
11:28:19 <male> Too many transistors.
11:28:47 <Frek> I don't think that's true in most cases, Intel for example probably doesn't, but I'm pretty sure IBM/Freescale still design much by "hand"
11:29:05 <male> Yes. I'm talking about legacy CPUs.
11:29:18 <male> New designs can be simple and fully understood.
11:29:22 <twb> How can you have a modern legacy CPU?
11:29:39 <male> Do you know how old the x86 is?
11:29:55 <twb> I thought x86 was an instruction set, not a CPU.
11:30:00 <male> They just keep adding transistors.
11:30:03 <Frek> well to be honest it won't get any better once the quantum processors gets introduced ;)
11:31:10 <male> There isn't an Emacs written in Forth that I know of, but there is one written in TRAC.
11:32:22 <male> I think most Forthers feel ill looking at something like Emacs.
11:33:49 <male> But one could certainly do it. It would be smaller, faster, and more extensible. It wouldn't require byte-compliation either.
11:34:33 <male> It would probably be easier to crash, however.
11:34:47 * madwork tries to picture a quantum Forth...
11:37:30 <male> Well you'd just have a q+ q/ etc.
11:41:52 <male> Frek: There are some old compressed RAM patches for Linux, IIRC.
11:42:12 <Frek> male, yes I know, but it seems no one care about it anylonger
11:42:35 <male> Frek: That's because everyone has 2G of RAM :-(
11:42:56 <Frek> well I've got a 64 bit cpu and just "2GB" ram ;)
11:43:51 <male> Frek: I believe the reasoning is that virtual memory gives more than RAM compression, at a lower cost.
11:44:17 <male> Frek: Unless of course you have one huge dataset you need to keep locked in RAM.
11:44:18 <Frek> male, yes probably
11:45:05 <male> Frek: But if that's the case, you can just to the compression/decompression in the application.
11:45:51 <Frek> male, I think ramcompression can give some speed benefits on larger memory chunks compared to swapping it out, but I can see how it's not economical for smaller segments 
11:46:03 <male> Has anyone written a Forth in elisp, btw? That would be a hoot.
11:46:54 <male> Slowest Forth EVAR.
11:47:38 <twb> The bash one might be slower.
11:47:55 * male doubts it
11:48:26 <male> http://www.jimbrooks.org/web/forth/emacs_gforth.php
11:48:37 <male> Not quite there, but interesting nonetheless.
11:49:31 * male didn't know there was a gforth.el
11:54:07 <gnomon> The Bash Forth is pretty much a worst-case scenario. Defined words are stored as strings which are re-parsed upon being called.
11:54:22 <gnomon> A non-stupid Elisp Forth could easily outpace it.
11:54:47 <male> It is possible for a fully interpreted but fast runtime to be faster than a byte-compiled but slow runtime.
11:54:59 <gnomon> Heck, I totally agree.
11:55:28 <gnomon> But I've read Bash Forth, and it is stupidity compounded atop stupidity. It is almost written as an exercise in devising the slowest-possible Forth engine.
11:55:29 <male> TRAC is no less stupid than what you've describe.
11:55:45 <gnomon> Ok. I'm not arguing that point either.
11:55:57 <male> Well, obviously no one indented it to be taken seriously.
11:56:13 <gnomon> I'm just saying that I've seen Malyon, for example, which implements a Z-machine in elisp. It's actually acceptably fast.
11:56:39 <twb> gnomon: so bashforth is the guile of forth implementations?
11:57:35 <gnomon> Not even. Guile isn't both colossally slow and braindead by design - just by accident.
11:57:41 <gnomon> ;)
11:58:39 <twb> heehee
12:01:40 <gnomon> male, speaking of Forth implementations that were never intended to be taken seriously - have you looked at jsForth?
12:02:11 <male> gnomon: I'm allergic to JavaScript.
12:04:46 <gnomon> Heh.
12:06:01 <gnomon> It's actually quite impressive. It was obviously written by someone who had no (or very little) prior JS knowledge, since it lacks many common idioms which would have substantially simplified it; but on the other hand, the author obviously went far out of his, her or their way(s) to make sure that everything was implemented in a sane manner. There was no "well, this works, let's leave it alone and move on".
12:06:07 <gnomon> It's also *very* thorough.
12:06:32 <male> Yeah.. Cookiedrive.
12:07:20 <gnomon> And JS block support, and loading blocks from external files... but I was referring to its implementation of multiple wordsets, its effort to include not one but several standard vocabularies, and a rather thorough bit of internal documentation.
12:07:41 <gnomon> It is impressive along an axis that many toy Forths are not.
12:08:29 <male> True.
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16:36:40 <kc5tja> gnomon: I believe you are correct when you say that BashForth is simply a toy; if memory serves me correctly, it was written as a "what if?" type of project.  Just a hair shy of being a dare.  The fact that it CAN be done is simply amazing, in that "oh ... my ... god ..." sort of way.
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16:40:20 <kc5tja> Frek: Actually, most companies today use automatic layout systems -- VHDL or Verilog.  They almost never design by hand, but they may *tweak* by hand as needed.
16:40:44 <kc5tja> With CPUs exceeding 10 million transistors, it's just not possible to design by hand anymore.
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16:41:40 <DocPlatypus> unless it's a simple CPU like a 6502 clone
16:41:42 <kc5tja> XeF4: It's going.  My position with Google will end in January, as I didn't get the full-time, regular job here.  Oh well.  Maybe, if I'm lucky, they'll be looking for Forth coders at Intellasys.
16:42:28 <kc5tja> DocPlatypus: Not even.  Western Design Center uses Verilog to implement their CPUs now.  ;)  But, that's more for "time to market" reasons really.  The 6502 is definitely simple enough to do by hand.
16:42:45 <kc5tja> Even Chuck Moore's OKAD-II system is "description"-based, not layout-based.  :)
16:42:55 <kc5tja> (although, the language describes layout, not logical structure.  But, still...)
16:50:11 <kc5tja> DocPlatypus: That being said, I have been thinking of writing a PCB layout package in Forth that worked using the tile-based approach like OKAD does for chips.  But, when you get into such large scales, it starts to get pretty unweildly.  :)
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16:57:49 <Quartus__> hi
17:00:37 <kc5tja> re hi
17:00:42 <kc5tja> bahh
17:00:45 <kc5tja> re Quartus__  :)
17:05:04 <kc5tja> Today is a day that will go down in infamy -- in my personal biography at least.  This is easily one of the most boring days of my life.
17:09:10 <Quartus__> I only feel bored when forced to endure something that keeps me from my own pursuits.
17:09:39 <Quartus__> frustrated, is perhaps the right word
17:09:42 <kc5tja> Well, you work for yourself, right?  (E.g., own your own business as your exclusive source of income)
17:10:11 <Quartus__> yes, but nonetheless obligations do arise from time to time.
17:10:19 <kc5tja> Historical records show that I'm not at all successful working for myself.
17:11:01 <Quartus__> I'm saying, you're on the net, with free time; how can you be bored?
17:12:00 <kc5tja> You sound like my mom.
17:12:07 <kc5tja> "You have all these toys in your room.  How can you be bored?"
17:12:10 <kc5tja> I'm bored.
17:12:14 <kc5tja> And that's all there is.  :)
17:12:26 <Quartus__> I have more interests than I ever have time to pursue as fully as I'd like.  I'd relish a block of uninterrupted time.
17:12:50 <kc5tja> I do too, but you get burned out after a while.
17:13:43 * DocPlatypus blows the dust off of some of his old Forth code
17:31:59 <timlarson> hey, the vacuum cleaner demonstration guy just cleaned the house...don't blow the dust this way ;)
17:32:55 <timlarson> (I guess this is funny to me because it is true...he just left a couple minutes ago, sadly for him, with no sale)
17:33:08 <Quartus> that sucks
17:33:08 <DocPlatypus> not a Kirby salesman I hope?
17:33:14 <DocPlatypus> heard bad stories about them
17:33:17 <timlarson> TriStar
17:33:31 <timlarson> ...our Hoover Z does a better job.
17:34:02 <madgarden> I have a Tristar.
17:34:07 <madgarden> (Hi!)
17:34:10 <timlarson> hi :)
17:34:23 <timlarson> it works well, ours just picks up a little bit more
17:34:32 <madgarden> All I can say about vacuums is, well, they all suck.
17:34:32 <kc5tja> madgarden: Is (Hi!) the internal implementation of Hi!?
17:34:32 <timlarson> how do you like yours?
17:34:37 <DocPlatypus> my former roommate's former roommate/girlfriend left behind an Amway ClearTrak
17:34:51 <DocPlatypus> decent little vacuum dare I say it
17:34:52 <madgarden> kc5tja, yes.
17:35:13 <madgarden> Eh, it works fine I guess. It's getting oldish. We don't vacuum a whole lot really, because vacuuming is a sham.
17:35:25 <DocPlatypus> madgarden: how so?
17:35:33 <timlarson> he said they last about 40-some years on average
17:35:47 <Quartus> Your former roommate's girlfriend was an Amwegian?
17:35:57 <madgarden> timlarson, then I guess I've got 30 more years to go. Maybe I should change the bag...
17:36:01 <timlarson> do you think it is worth 2200 USD?
17:36:22 <timlarson> we got our $400 hoover z for $80
17:36:31 <madgarden> DocPlatypus, well you can never get anything fully clean. Plus, immune systems are there for a reason. ;)
17:37:03 <madgarden> timlarson, no, it's not worth $2200. We got our salesperson to lower the price drastically though. Still, paid way too much for a vacuum cleaner.
17:37:03 <DocPlatypus> Quartus: I have no idea where she got it from. she and I never talked
17:37:10 <timlarson> I read that the Henry is really good
17:37:42 <timlarson> (seems to be available only in europe, except for some rare importer)
17:38:06 <madgarden> The powerhead on ours is getting kinda ratty. I guess it needs new parts.
17:38:18 <timlarson> did you get the free servicing deal?
17:38:24 <madgarden> I don't remember. :)
17:38:38 <madgarden> Anyway, I checked out that jsForth earlier. Pretty impressive!
17:38:42 <timlarson> just checking, since it might not cost you anything to get it fixed :)
17:39:26 <madgarden> Yea. Maybe I'll stumble across the contract sometime. 
17:39:38 <madgarden> Anyway, like I said, I try not to vacuum excessively anyway. ;)
17:39:49 <timlarson> you can return to your regularly scheduled forthing ;)
17:40:09 <timlarson> thankfully forth is low-dust and low allergen (at least to us)
17:40:10 <kc5tja> Not much in the way of forthing, unfortunately.
17:40:43 <timlarson> I should probably get back to work on my biz website...
17:41:04 <timlarson> when it is up then I can get back to forthing
17:41:25 <madgarden> I want to get a biz website up in the next months as well.
17:42:34 <kc5tja> What kinds of businesses?
17:43:22 <timlarson> me --> advertising
17:43:30 * kc5tja wishes he could find something that he's really honestly GOOD at, something that he can stick with for a long time, so that he can perhaps make some money that way.
17:43:49 <Quartus> Practice.
17:44:00 <madgarden> kc5tja, games.
17:44:04 <kc5tja> madgarden: I hate games.
17:44:08 <madgarden> And related tools, initially.
17:44:11 <madgarden> Well, poo!
17:44:17 <kc5tja> Well, let me rephrase.
17:44:21 <kc5tja> I don't have the patience for games.
17:44:25 <kc5tja> It's not that I hate them as such.
17:44:30 <madgarden> Have you tried my Saucelifter out?
17:44:30 <kc5tja> I'll play them, but then I get bored with them.
17:45:07 <kc5tja> Quartus: Useless advice I'm afraid.  But, thanks anyway.
17:45:17 <kc5tja> madgarden: Does it exist for Linux?
17:45:50 <Quartus> Useless?  So you're looking for something you're expert at without ever practicing?
17:46:13 <madgarden> kc5tja, it does when my programming buddy builds it for Linux. ;) I'll try to get a build for you sooner than later, after it's complete.
17:46:31 <kc5tja> Quartus: A little context would have helped.  I practice at a lot of things quite often.
17:46:44 <madgarden> Guys, don't start. ;P
17:46:53 <Quartus> Well, I don't get it.
17:46:57 <kc5tja> Quartus: I'm even an expert in a few (coding, for example).  But I don't see myself getting rich in those fields.
17:47:57 <madgarden> kc5tja, unless you go into it for yourself.
17:48:34 <kc5tja> madgarden: http://www.falvotech.com <-- that's why that exists.  It produced only $1000 in one year.  It is not economical.
17:48:54 <kc5tja> After that, I had to close teh business, and it became my personal site.
17:48:58 <kc5tja> the even
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17:50:17 <madgarden> Well, that's not the only angle of attack. Anyway, I'm not going to pep talk you into going for it. It's my goal though... too creative to be slogging away working for someone else for peanuts and little recognition.
17:51:32 <kc5tja> Well, you've something I do not -- tenacity.  I burn out *WAY* too fast.
17:52:00 <kc5tja> Without that, a business venture is a waste.
17:52:20 <kc5tja> So, I don't/won't bother anymore.
17:52:56 * tathi wants to see Saucelifter for Linux.  Need help? :)
17:52:57 <madgarden> I certainly burn out as well, but yes, I don't give up either. I know I'll not be satisfied, or happy, without an outcome on my own terms.
17:53:28 <madgarden> tathi, I have a machine here that's itching to be set up as a Linux boxxen... perhaps I can do that this weekend.
17:53:44 <madgarden> It's frickin' noisy though, ugh. 
17:53:51 * madgarden is surrounded by ancient hardware.
17:54:20 <tathi> heh
17:54:26 <kc5tja> madgarden: The older I get, the more cynical I get.  Nothing interests me anymore.
17:55:32 <timlarson> things interest me, but cost more money than I have allocatable
17:55:36 <madgarden> kc5tja, I hear you. Remember, I'm older than even you. ;) I refuse to give up though.
17:55:47 <timlarson> so I have to start a business to make money faster
17:56:03 <madgarden> timlarson, yep. That's one way to get motivated. :)
17:56:11 <timlarson> e.g. physics is very interesting to me...but equipment and materials cost $
17:56:13 <kc5tja> That doesn't motivate me though.
17:56:46 <madgarden> I've got a wife and 2 kids, house, etc. I want more time with them, and to share my successes with them.
17:56:46 <madgarden> So, first I have to be successful. ;)
17:56:46 <timlarson> I do find it hard to connect my internal motivation to money making activities
17:56:49 <kc5tja> I'm a total physics whore -- but, the equipment involved costs *SO* much that no amount of self-owned business is going to pay for that hobby.
17:57:29 <kc5tja> I guess what it boils down to is, frankly, I'm always behind the curve.
17:57:35 <kc5tja> Not one of my skills is marketable.
17:57:53 <timlarson> I saw plans for a $100 STM http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/
17:57:54 <madgarden> kc5tja, port this to Forth: http://wiki.slembcke.net/main/published/Chipmunk
17:57:55 <madgarden> :)
17:58:13 <madgarden> kc5tja, just ride it out and wait for the Singularity. That's my fallback plan. ;)
17:58:17 <kc5tja> I am, with the sole exception of technical support or software development, unemployable.  Well, heh, except for making burgers.  But burgers don't pay the bills around here, although it IS fun.  :)
17:58:57 <timlarson> pizza driving is not bad, in good neighborhoods...but does not pay as well as coding
17:59:06 <timlarson> I did that for two years
17:59:13 <madgarden> Yea, pizza delivery was fun.
18:01:07 <timlarson> I know that wanted physics equipment will exceed any normal budget...so I want to combine budgets and start a chain of tech shops where I can go to use shared equipment
18:01:53 <Quartus> Eat at Joe's and Accelerate Particles, that sort of thing?
18:01:54 <timlarson> a nice side effect is that others could do the same
18:02:38 <timlarson> we could start a healthy+tasty fast food place too, but that is a separate idea...even if next door
18:04:36 <madgarden> timlarson, I've got a pub idea also. And/or a motel. ;)
18:05:02 <Quartus> The Quark and Kettle
18:05:04 <kc5tja> timlarson: Cooking food using the waste heat from magnetic bottle confinement systems?  :)
18:05:10 <timlarson> hehe
18:05:34 <timlarson> look into ETFE plastic film...and xanadomes for how to enclose the place
18:14:15 <Quartus> In Xanadome did Kubla Khan a stately pleasure dome decree
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18:17:17 <DocPlatypus> I used to do messenger-courier work
18:17:30 <DocPlatypus> that was more fun than I would expect shuttling pizzas to be
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18:28:16 <timlarson> http://www.xanadome.com/ApL2.html
18:33:01 <kc5tja> timlarson: Is this what you'll be marketing?
18:33:21 <kc5tja> That's a strange picture.  Please tell me that is an artist's mockup.  I can't tell what is near and what is far.
18:34:36 <timlarson> I am not connected with that...but wander the site a bit
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18:45:54 <kc5tja> I guess I'm just too stupid to understand the point of the structure.
18:49:50 <timlarson> small amount of materials, large area/volume enclosed
18:50:07 <timlarson> i.e. reduced cost/sqare foot
18:50:28 <timlarson> and with ETFE plastic film it lasts a long time
18:50:46 <timlarson> and gives you an "outdoors" with indoor weather.
18:50:49 <kc5tja> Well, it just seems to me that it's flimsy.
18:50:56 <kc5tja> They use the bicycle wheel as an example on the site.
18:51:05 <kc5tja> But, my bike wheels are both bent out of round.
18:51:19 <kc5tja> Slightly, but still.
18:51:29 <kc5tja> It just seems to me that this kind of structure is impractical.
18:51:41 <kc5tja> At least, on the scales they're thinking of.
18:51:50 <kc5tja> or as permanent fixtures.
18:51:51 <timlarson> any engineer would probably say it needs additional margin beyond what they are saying.
18:51:54 <kc5tja> I can see temporary fixtures...
18:52:21 <timlarson> I am thinking for normal-sized buildings, not giant spans...
18:52:39 <timlarson> and with more of an octet-truss arch
18:53:46 <timlarson> the ETFE has been up in some sites for 20+ years with no appreciable degredation
18:54:12 <timlarson> in full weather exposure
18:54:27 <kc5tja> Well, I'm not so worried about the plastic.
18:54:37 <kc5tja> (although, you ARE creating a greenhouse with it.  I'd like some wind flow.  :))
18:54:53 <timlarson> then use octet-trusses instead plain pipes
18:55:21 <timlarson> and make use of the bernoli (sorry about spelling) effect for cooling
18:55:38 <timlarson> (small opening at the top, larger sum of openings around the bottom edge)
18:57:06 <timlarson> put some dark ground around the outside
18:57:18 <timlarson> sun heats the ground, which heats the air, which rises...
18:57:30 <kc5tja> That's just thermal convection.
18:57:42 <timlarson> this pulls air out from the bottom edge vents, which gets replenished from the top vent
18:57:43 <kc5tja> Bernoulli effect is the change in pressure due to airflow itself.
18:58:02 <kc5tja> right -- ever see a solar chimney experiments in Spain?
18:58:11 <kc5tja> They use PFTE (??) plastic, I think.
18:58:31 <timlarson> the difference in opening size causes a decrease in pressure and hence a drop in temperature of around ...what was it 10 or more degrees F.
18:58:32 <kc5tja> But the idea is the same -- a big inverted funnel, with a wind turbine at the base of the chimney.
18:58:48 <kc5tja> One person is able to run the facility, and it generates something like 200 to 400MW of power.
19:00:05 <kc5tja> i think they're trying to build one in Australia now.
19:00:18 <kc5tja> Anyway, this just seems to be "too good to be true".
19:00:41 <timlarson> did you look up octet truss?
19:02:24 <kc5tja> Not yet -- still perusing the xanadome site.
19:02:27 <kc5tja> Almost at the end though.
19:07:12 <kc5tja> hmm
19:07:18 <kc5tja> I'm googling, but lots of "noise" is appearing.
19:07:27 <kc5tja> It appears to be 3 tetrahedrons coupled together.
19:08:17 <timlarson> did you try images.google.com
19:08:55 <kc5tja> Yeah
19:08:57 <kc5tja> I found a clear picture.
19:08:59 <kc5tja> I was close.
19:09:10 <kc5tja> The main structural support comes from octahedrons.
19:09:17 <kc5tja> They're skewed at an angle.
19:09:32 <kc5tja> Then rigidity is provided by tetrahedrons, which fill in the spaces between the octahedrons.
19:09:45 <kc5tja> This produces a crystal lattice-like "slab" of joints.
19:10:04 <kc5tja> In short, it's a _flat_ equivalent of a geodesic sphere.
19:11:53 * kc5tja has always wanted a geodesic home.  :)
19:12:30 <kc5tja> Going home.  brb
19:12:45 <timlarson> k
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19:28:42 <kc5tja> back
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19:29:18 <timlarson> wb
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20:26:21 <Quartus> ##c: [23:17] <PoppaVic> I am soo old and tired
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20:30:12 <slava> Quartus: how fitting
20:30:38 <Quartus> he's in full-on rant mode, flinging insults left and right presently
20:30:50 <Quartus> [23:28] <PoppaVic> Yer too stupid to live
20:31:10 <Quartus> [23:14] <PoppaVic> jsedgwick:  just... die
20:31:25 <Quartus> [23:29] <PoppaVic> actually, frighteningly, I expect you to be a "man-ager"
20:31:31 <Quartus> and so on
20:31:31 <slava> ouch
20:32:25 <timlarson> hmm...pappavic by proxy
20:32:31 <Quartus> heh
20:32:58 <slava> Quartus: I'm sick of yer txtmsgaolsht
20:33:15 <slava> when will it stop?
20:33:17 <Quartus> slava: look, asswipe, "EMO" is a comedian
20:33:19 <timlarson> I gave up asking questions in ##c...thankfully I did not have very many
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20:37:32 <slava> wow. just... wow
20:37:36 <Quartus> yeah
20:37:42 <Quartus> he's getting worse
20:38:55 <madgarden> That's too bad.
20:42:15 <timlarson> gn
20:42:54 <Quartus> ciao
20:48:23 <slava> <PoppaVic>: You folks worry too much, which suggests you are guilty
20:48:53 <slava> a long day of what? IRC?
20:49:09 <Quartus> yup
20:49:17 <slava> was there a beer run?
20:49:19 <Quartus> he's a hard working, old (he's 46!) long-suffering man
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