00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.08.14 00:23:33 --- quit: skas_wk ("I'm outta here.") 00:58:09 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@ed39.AFL49.vectant.ne.jp) joined #forth 02:36:22 --- quit: Mr_Awesome ("time to impregnate a moth") 02:51:58 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 02:52:56 --- quit: TreyB__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:20:50 --- join: TreyB_ (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 03:29:07 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:00:34 --- quit: tetonca (Connection timed out) 04:10:22 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 04:10:23 --- quit: TreyB_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:31:07 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:33:39 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 04:44:07 --- quit: Baughn (Remote closed the connection) 04:49:47 --- join: Baughn (n=svein@2002:54ca:2640:0:0:0:0:1) joined #forth 05:11:25 --- join: TreyB_ (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 05:19:28 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:24:03 --- quit: slava (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 05:42:48 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 06:49:29 --- quit: ecraven (Remote closed the connection) 06:51:25 --- join: edrx (i=edrx@201.5.12.176) joined #forth 06:52:22 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 07:15:21 --- quit: Al2O3 () 07:42:18 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@216.143.252.231) joined #forth 07:52:44 --- join: Al2O3_ (n=Al2O3@gatekeeper.greshamstorage.com) joined #forth 07:58:51 --- quit: Al2O3 (Connection timed out) 08:20:50 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 08:29:08 curl -I 'http://www.forth.org/fd/FD-V[01-21]N[1-6].pdf' | gawk '/^Content-Length/{x+=$2}END{print x}' -> 948555879 08:29:25 That is, 948,555,879 bytes 08:29:43 --- join: FMota_ (n=fmota@dhcp-36-203-57-69.cf-res.cfu.net) joined #forth 08:41:45 --- part: FMota_ left #forth 08:53:16 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:56:46 --- nick: duncan2 -> bojangles 09:11:18 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@205.205.50.2) joined #forth 09:11:26 hi. 10:05:56 --- join: forther (n=forther@207.47.34.100.static.nextweb.net) joined #forth 10:11:01 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:11:12 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 10:11:12 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 10:15:07 --- quit: Al2O3_ (No route to host) 10:24:14 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-150-151.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 10:27:34 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@gatekeeper.greshamstorage.com) joined #forth 10:32:17 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 10:32:34 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 10:39:27 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 10:40:08 --- quit: edrx (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 11:10:20 --- join: forther_ (n=forther@207.47.34.100.static.nextweb.net) joined #forth 11:17:23 --- quit: forther (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:40:38 --- quit: forther_ ("Leaving") 12:13:32 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:13:54 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 12:13:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 13:00:40 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 13:00:52 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 13:08:11 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 13:27:41 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving") 13:32:03 --- quit: Al2O3 (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 13:33:06 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@gatekeeper.greshamstorage.com) joined #forth 14:29:42 --- quit: Quartus__ ("used jmIrc") 14:29:55 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@205.205.50.2) joined #forth 14:30:10 hey. 14:39:45 --- join: vatic (n=vatic@pool-162-83-149-117.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 14:52:33 hi, vatic. 14:53:10 Hey Quartus__ 15:23:19 --- quit: slava (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 15:50:05 what's going on? 15:58:59 --- join: tnovelli (n=me@pool-72-79-234-10.spfdma.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 16:03:30 Not a whole lot, Quartus, and you? Nice and cool here thanks to Canadian breezes! 16:31:44 It's splendid weather, to be sure. 16:35:26 --- join: maht_ (n=maht@85.189.31.174.proweb.managedbroadband.co.uk) joined #forth 16:46:59 --- quit: maht (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:48:29 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 16:48:29 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 17:11:04 Quartus, how is your book coming? 17:42:32 Slowly but surely. 17:47:50 Do you have a publisher? Or were you going to shop it around when it's done, or self-publish? 17:48:15 No publisher; how I will have it published remains to be seen. 17:52:00 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 17:57:08 --- join: arcus (n=Miranda@130.195.209.73) joined #forth 18:07:53 --- quit: arcus (Connection reset by peer) 18:17:43 --- quit: Al2O3 () 18:18:11 --- join: edrx (i=edrx@200.217.105.53) joined #forth 18:37:53 It doesn't seem like many of the authors of compsci texts have been especially well treated by their publishers, unless perhaps you're Donald Knuth. 18:38:06 That's a key reason why I'm writing the book first. 18:41:58 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@12.144.193.67) joined #forth 18:42:06 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 18:45:28 What scope do you plan for this book, Quartus? 18:45:40 Presently it is as broad as I can manage; I may narrow it later. 18:47:09 --- nick: TreyB_ -> TreyB 18:49:32 Do you have a target audience in mind? 18:49:58 Newcomers, and programmers experienced with non-Forth languages. 18:51:19 That's two books; I'm writing both. As I say, I may narrow it later. 18:52:04 Just today I thought about developing a sylabus for teaching comp-sci to high school students. 18:52:20 oh? 18:53:29 I had just dropped the last of the registration paperwork off at my kids' school, so I had pedantry on the brain. 18:53:59 Easy to teach those capable and interested; very hard for the rest. 18:54:33 Yeah, I had "advanced" students in mind to start. 18:54:51 The self-teaching ones. :) 18:55:16 Possibly. I certainly fell into that category. 18:57:49 Figure out how to teach the other 99%, that's the tough nut. 18:57:56 --- part: edrx left #forth 18:58:35 I have this notion that we really ought to teach this stuff from the bottom up: Boolean logic, base-2 math, load/store (read/write), branching, dead-simple mental models of the CPU, etc. 18:59:16 I don't know how well that will work in practice, though. 18:59:21 Sounds dry. 19:00:21 I'd like to present it in the context of a virtual machine simulator where they own the whole environment from top to bottom. 19:01:03 Something more regular than an Apple ][, but along the same features. 19:01:14 --- part: tnovelli left #forth 19:01:54 I suspect the bright kids will feel you're making them use a toy fake computer, and the slow kids will be fast asleep. 19:03:03 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-148-210.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 19:03:27 You might have something there, but I'd like the simulator to have enough I/O to enable them to write games for it. 19:03:49 Fake games for the fake computer. 19:03:58 Perhaps I'm pessimistic. 19:04:51 MAME and its ilk have plenty of support, although I don't know of new development for those environments. 19:05:12 I think the hurdle for the slow kids is much larger than you might assume. Things you and I take for granted as simple concepts don't occur naturally for many people. Just thinking procedurally, understanding that problems need to be broken down into discrete steps, that's something a lot of people lack. 19:06:08 My father used Logo to teach procedural thinking to younger children with some success. 19:06:09 Hence my desire to start by an examination of those steps: logic, maths, branching, I/O. 19:06:29 Part of the reason for the success was that the results were visible, and immediate. 19:06:41 Yep. 19:07:04 You don't get that with logic, maths, branching, and I/O. 19:07:48 Another key concept is that small actions repeated iteratively can have large, complex results. 19:08:02 No, you don't. At least not without any feedback. 19:08:09 I agree. 19:08:25 Logo does a pretty good job of displaying that visually. 19:08:38 Yes, it's ideal in that regard. 19:09:10 I had hoped that the simulator would support building a Logo (or Forth-with-graphics) environment. 19:09:40 I suppose I could build the simulator and then write Logo for it, and then let them gradually take over the VM. 19:10:50 Y'all take care! 19:10:56 G'night, vatic. 19:10:57 --- quit: vatic (">poof<") 19:11:05 The very notion of a virtual machine is many levels of abstraction up. A challenge of teaching beginners is trying to realize how much you yourself take for granted. 19:11:50 For the uninitiated, even the most apparently simple concept is as hard to grasp as it was for the very bright pepole who first broke ground on this stuff initially. 19:16:50 I remember one of my early frustrations was that everything was presented as 'this is how it is done', without any explanation as to why this method was the one chosen. Were there no other methods? Did they all prove inferior in some key way? 19:17:37 Hmmm. 19:18:45 I don't have any teaching expertise (or experience), so I don't have any way to validate my notions short of trying it. I may subject my own kids to it :-) 19:19:17 Why not, eh? :) 19:19:31 I subject them to all of my other ideas :-) 19:24:35 --- join: ccfg_ (n=ccfg@dsl-roigw1-fe8ade00-21.dhcp.inet.fi) joined #forth 19:26:04 Grrr. !@#$^ wonky Earthlink routers. 19:26:42 I get my service through Verizon Wireless Broadband, but they route through Earthlink. 19:26:55 sounds bad 19:27:20 I live in the sticks, with dial-up the only alternative :-/ 19:27:47 TreyB hi, and Quartus hi, and, have y'all seen Karel the Robot? 19:28:00 Quartus, Nan says hi. :) 19:28:14 hi Nan. Hey Ray. 19:28:49 Raystm2: Never heard of it, but Mr. Google has. 19:32:25 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 19:32:57 TreyB I'm obviously jumping into a conversation... But from what I'm gleaning, I can see A Karel ( which is really a basic non drawing logo, but can be made into a logo...) and can be easily adapted to become the kind of trainor that takes a person from not understanding proceedure to understanding it. Games. That's the answer. The right combo of games will get the ball rolling. 19:34:37 I think so. But Quartus has a point in that what *I* consider interesting and what a student considers interesting may differ enough that I'll need an intermediate environment (like Karel or Logo). 19:34:42 Of course, I'm a tad biased. I've had this idea many years ago. It was the reason I wrote ChuckBot the Cursor for forths ( specifically colorforth but not a restrictionL . 19:34:57 ) 19:35:16 I agree. 19:35:53 I needed it, myself. In the guise of BASIC and other logic games... 19:36:52 You'll need to start with a common denominator that most everyone knows, maybe even yes/no type games at first. 19:37:07 --- quit: ccfg (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:38:23 I imagine the best system includes feedback to developers so they can respond to make systems more understandable, in near real time. 19:39:22 * Raystm2 suddenly thinking of the MYSTonline like system where people are themselves in the world and are educated by doing and watching others in the same interface. 19:42:59 Learning to discern what a person needs to know, that person gleaning such information from what they are currently experiancing, and being able to referance such info accurately, in my opinion, is the goal of any online learning system. 19:45:57 A network of systems of children learning, might even be a self-organizing social organism. 19:46:11 Quartus: Good luck with the book. 19:46:18 Thanks TreyB. 19:46:35 Raystm2: That goes a bit farther than I had originally planned, but it sounds interesting. 19:47:19 all: G'night. I have an early morning, and I need the rest to keep up with the young ones :-) 19:47:24 gn :) 19:47:31 ciao 20:20:16 --- quit: Raystm2 ("Should have paid the bill.") 20:33:33 --- quit: madgarden ("?OUT OF DATA ERROR") 20:43:14 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0007e97df149-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 20:43:14 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 20:51:53 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@bas2-kitchener06-1096751749.dsl.bell.ca) joined #forth 20:53:31 --- quit: madgarden (Client Quit) 20:57:44 --- quit: timlarson ("Leaving") 21:05:11 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 21:23:08 --- join: TreyB_ (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 21:31:19 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:39:23 --- join: tetonca (n=chris@66.155.140.250) joined #forth 23:11:13 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:11:28 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 23:11:28 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 23:15:07 --- join: H4n1 (n=Hans@dslb-088-072-210-245.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 23:22:33 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 23:27:55 --- quit: TreyB_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:32:33 --- quit: H4ns (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.08.14