00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.08.08 00:13:36 --- quit: dgd2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:22:54 --- join: dgd2 (n=dgd@166.226.9.77) joined #forth 00:26:55 --- quit: Baughn (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:29:41 --- nick: H4n1 -> H4ns 02:02:06 --- quit: dgd2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:38:37 --- join: Baughn (n=svein@2002:54ca:ec08:0:0:0:0:1) joined #forth 04:53:34 --- join: jns (n=jens@p57B07D6A.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 05:54:31 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 06:09:40 --- join: H4n1 (n=Hans@70.91.193.46) joined #forth 06:16:26 --- part: H4n1 left #forth 06:16:28 --- quit: H4ns (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:41:00 --- quit: ecraven ("rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.0.95.1") 07:01:46 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:01:55 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 07:01:55 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 07:26:54 --- join: H4ns (n=Hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com) joined #forth 08:08:01 --- quit: Quartus__ ("used jmIrc") 08:08:14 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@205.205.50.2) joined #forth 08:42:33 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 08:42:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 08:56:16 --- join: dgd2 (n=dgd@166.227.209.79) joined #forth 10:11:21 --- quit: dgd2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:23:50 --- join: madwork (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 10:43:59 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-2f97f254fb1520ee) joined #forth 10:57:04 --- quit: tlockney (Remote closed the connection) 11:02:24 --- quit: Quartus (Connection timed out) 11:02:38 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM001947482b20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 11:02:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 11:37:34 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 11:38:01 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-e065604327db38e1) joined #forth 11:38:12 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:38:36 --- join: madwork (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 12:06:40 --- quit: ygrek ("Leaving") 12:08:44 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:40:37 * H4ns got his copy of "starting forth" today and finds all his beginner questions answered, including indirect execution. great book! 12:47:40 great 12:47:42 --- join: tlockney (n=tlockney@71-32-247-246.ptld.qwest.net) joined #forth 12:47:49 keep in mind 'starting forth' predates ANS, though. 12:47:57 what it describes is closer to fig-forth or forth-83. 12:49:51 yeah, sure. i'm always cross-checking with the maisforth source for all the internals that brodie describes. 12:51:09 the most useful bit of the book is that it describes "the forth way" of using forth. actually, some of the idioms are "obvious", but i wondered whether it is how you actually do it. 12:51:33 for example, the fact that you don't have arrays and that you use allot with a funny size to create one :) 13:01:42 --- quit: slava () 13:24:12 Marcel Hendrix has a version online updated for ANS: http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/sf.html 13:24:25 He recommends that you have a dead tree version if you can get it. 13:24:41 Which now you do :-) 13:27:51 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving") 13:40:58 gladly so! in fact i already found the german version of the book a while ago, but i gave that my son so that he can learn forth as his first programming language. 13:41:29 but i guess it is proper that i know the stuff, too, if i try to make him learn that. 13:45:20 --- quit: slava32 ("Leaving") 13:57:02 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@216.143.252.231) joined #forth 14:40:47 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@205.205.50.1) joined #forth 15:03:26 --- quit: H4ns (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:05:22 --- join: H4ns (n=Hans@70.91.193.46) joined #forth 15:13:09 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:22:07 --- quit: Al2O3 () 15:35:44 --- quit: maht_ ("Leaving") 15:37:13 --- join: maht (n=maht@85-189-31-174.proweb.managedbroadband.co.uk) joined #forth 15:56:53 --- join: forther_ (n=forther@207.47.34.100.static.nextweb.net) joined #forth 15:59:22 --- quit: forther_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:59:51 --- join: forther__ (n=forther@207.47.34.100.static.nextweb.net) joined #forth 15:59:59 --- quit: timlarson ("Leaving") 16:04:20 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:16:04 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@12.144.193.67) joined #forth 16:17:56 --- join: H4n1 (n=Hans@70.91.193.41) joined #forth 16:33:44 --- quit: H4ns (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:42:36 hi 16:52:21 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@66.213.50.2) joined #forth 17:33:48 --- quit: forther__ ("Leaving") 17:42:11 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 17:42:11 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 17:49:00 Hey tathi. 17:49:18 Hi Quartus 17:49:31 What's going on? 17:49:55 --- quit: timlarson ("Leaving") 17:50:07 wish I knew. :) How about with you? 17:50:59 I started making a pair of stilts this afternoon. 17:51:21 High fence between you and the neighbour farmer's daughter? 17:51:28 Heh. 17:51:51 I've been using a step-stool in the greenhouse to work on the tomatoes, and I realized today that stilts would make things go much faster. 17:52:09 Giant radioactive tomatoes? 17:52:21 My first thought was to just buy a pair of drywall stilts, but nobody local had them, and they're very expensive. 17:52:41 No, but they're hung from cables that are 8 feet off the ground. 17:52:48 So when you need to lower them to give them more room to grow... 17:52:50 stilts are about the easiest thing to make. 17:52:58 yeah 17:53:26 I'd like to have articulated feet like the drywall stilts though. 17:53:30 Still shouldn't be too hard. 17:53:50 couple of beams, couple of footrests; bit of practice and you'll be a pro. 17:54:14 Oh, sure. Walking on stilts is pretty easy. 17:54:28 Though oddly enough, I think I learned to ride a unicycle before I learned to stilt-walk. 17:54:40 Probably not as useful, unless you're looking to entertain the tomatoes. 17:55:01 Nah, I'm not quite *that* kooky. 17:55:27 :) 18:01:11 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@bas2-kitchener06-1096751183.dsl.bell.ca) joined #forth 18:15:58 --- join: madgarden_ (n=madgarde@bas2-kitchener06-1096751183.dsl.bell.ca) joined #forth 18:23:20 --- quit: jns (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:24:09 --- join: jns (n=jens@p57B055B8.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 18:27:19 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:29:31 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 18:40:00 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 18:43:35 --- join: vatic (n=vatic@ool-45740b1c.dyn.optonline.net) joined #forth 18:54:42 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@bas2-kitchener06-1096751183.dsl.bell.ca) joined #forth 18:58:13 --- quit: madgarden_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:46:25 --- quit: vatic (">poof<") 19:57:08 --- join: magnus_ (n=magnus@pool-71-185-83-92.phlapa.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 19:58:08 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@205.205.50.1) joined #forth 21:26:24 --- join: dgd2 (n=dgd@166.227.142.199) joined #forth 21:31:18 Do you guys know of xmonad (the tiling window manager written in haskell)? 21:31:53 it aims to be minimalistic (< 500 loc) and similar to dwm 21:32:06 I wonder how small it could be in forth 21:32:24 I would imagine of similar size. 21:32:42 Aha... the C program is 2500 loc IIRC 21:32:59 C is considerably verbose when compared with Haskell or Forth. 21:33:09 Yes 21:33:30 Do you use forth often? 21:33:36 I do. 21:33:45 What kind of tasks? 21:34:12 --- join: tetonca (n=chris@66.155.140.179) joined #forth 21:34:20 Various. I use Awk for simple ad-hoc text-processing tasks, and Forth for most other things I undertake. 21:35:30 aha.. I'm just curious what things people have written in forth 21:35:49 I find it very interesting as a language but socially a bit obscure 21:36:09 It's a niche language, so the community is not as large as for one of the big 5. 21:36:40 does it have to be a niche language? why isn't it suitable for general stuff? 21:37:07 It is suitable for general stuff. 21:38:05 I suppose I should do a search on sourceforge for forth projects to get an idea 21:38:17 I'm not suggesting it fits only in a specific niche, but rather that it is not presently one of the fad languages, and so the community is smaller. 21:40:21 You'll find sourceforge predictably and understandably a direct reflection of the current fads. 21:40:49 well, it gives something at least. 90 projects 21:41:07 Against how many in, oh, Python? C? Ruby? 21:41:12 Java? 21:42:03 I don't bother to check 21:42:12 I just want to sample the forth community 21:42:43 I am perhaps not making my point with sufficient clarity. Sourceforge is not going to be a particularly useful sample. 21:43:48 okay, where do you suggest I look? 21:44:51 Better off reading Leo Brodie's 'Starting Forth'. 21:45:29 That's the thing; it's a scattered bunch. You find Forth in myriad places, but not in the kind of places that hang out on the net, or post projects to Sourceforge. As has been discussed on comp.lang.forth, the bulk of Forth programmers simply use it as a tool, every day, and don't seek out or contribute to any online communities. 21:45:59 it's a loner language :) 21:46:12 howdy Quartus :) 21:46:37 I don't know that I agree with that, though lone individuals can certainly use it to good effect. I think it's more that it's a practical, pragmatic tool; it is simply used, more than discussed. 21:46:44 Hi JasonWoof :) 21:47:16 that's cool 21:48:13 There's a small bunch of people who like to discuss how many angels dance on the head of a pin, and a scattered presence elsewhere on the web. 21:49:03 If you're looking for reasons not to learn Forth, though, you'll certainly find them. 21:49:18 I'm learning it alright, I'm writing a toy forth myself 21:49:27 tho I haven't really used any other forth yet 21:49:45 Well, that pushes another button; writing Forth doesn't teach you Forth. 21:49:53 er, writing *a* Forth, rather. 21:51:14 worse, starting by implementing a Forth may ingrain misguided and mistaken notions that all Forths operate, or should operate, in identical fashion to the one you've built, under the covers. This can lead to some horrid programming practices. 21:52:49 sheesh, there's a lot of annoying things about ubuntu 21:53:09 are there? I've only used it slightly 21:53:37 yeah, like the system-wide muttrc that deletes your BCC field without sending to those folks 21:53:46 and that their kernels don't set CONFIG_PREEMPT 21:53:57 philistines :) 21:53:57 I'm rebuilding the kernel now 21:54:14 my system was very unresponsive if anything was using the disk 21:54:37 fortunately, I had a hunch what the cause was, because I've fixed that before when I was using gentoo 21:55:04 The wisdom of experience, eh :) 21:55:09 some things about ubuntu are marvelous compared to gentoo, like that I didn't have to configure X or kernel boot options to get the resolution to match that of my flatpanel display 21:55:32 I didn't have to configure X at all 21:55:35 does it interrogate the panel for that info? 21:55:42 dunno 21:55:57 I haven't had to investigate, because it works 21:56:01 :) 21:56:07 I'm very happy about this. I hate configuring X 21:56:17 as the fellow said, I know good design when I don't trip over it :) 21:56:27 --- join: dgd2_ (n=dgd@166.227.142.199) joined #forth 21:56:39 it even has that spiffy feature that I'd only seen on Mac OS where if a game or something switches resolutions, it'll scale it up 21:56:49 neat 21:57:02 yeah, I didn't know linux did that 21:57:08 I was pretty suprised when I started up enigma 21:57:14 I suppose it's a feature of the specific window manager 21:57:29 nah, I doubt it 21:57:30 --- quit: dgd2 (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 21:57:44 it works just as well in enigma as the default gnome thing 21:57:51 s/enigma/wmii/ 21:57:54 interesting 21:58:13 I seriously doubt the wmii window manager has that feature built in 21:58:22 must be in the kernel itself 21:58:24 I think it's X's fullscreen mode somehow 21:58:46 in gentoo if something changed my resolution the screenwould go black 21:58:48 --- quit: dgd2_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:59:03 not so handy :) 21:59:08 right 21:59:31 and for quite a while I had a slightly defective graphics card that often wouldn't come back on after going black 22:00:06 I guess that teaches patience, or something like that :) 22:00:27 I know that wasn't linux either, because sometimes it'd be black when the OF prompt was supposed to show (ie before a boot disk was chosen) 22:00:40 nah, still working on that one... 22:00:49 :) 22:01:14 I'm still rather impatient about having 3d graphics drivers... 22:01:27 --- join: dgd2 (n=dgd@166.227.142.199) joined #forth 22:01:31 nvidia doesn't make binary drivers for ppc linux 22:01:46 and the hackers haven't finished reverse engineering it yet 22:02:16 oh, and the whole problem in the first place is that nVidia is being a prick and not allowing us access to the specs or driver source 22:02:38 * JasonWoof sighs 22:03:03 my old card was ATI. That worked great for years 22:04:36 there are still a number of players who think available specs are somehow a bad thing 22:05:40 My only struggle with Linux of late is my continued inability to convince a Movix boot CD to run at 640x480x60Hz 22:05:50 I get 73Hz, and if I don't like it, too bad for me. :) 22:08:28 yeah, boot CDs are hard to configure :) 22:08:57 * magnus_ runs linux on an old mac mini ppc 22:09:26 well, I haven't really delved into it. Nothing obvious, anyway. No big deal. I run an old junker into a TV via an external converter, and it prefers 60Hz; 73Hz it shifts slightly up and to the left. 22:09:33 speaking of which... do you know of any project that makes it easy to make your own bootable linux CD with your favorite settings and such in your home directory? 22:10:00 heh 22:10:24 magnus_: I've got a dual G4 450MHz 22:10:27 As I recall, Knoppix lets you boot from the live CD but keep customized settings on the hard drive, though it's been awhile since I used it 22:10:54 Though I'm not sure that's what you mean. 22:10:59 Quartus: that might work for me if I can use a thumb drive 22:11:07 Wouldn't surprise me. 22:11:08 no, I want to make a custom CD 22:11:34 so it'll boot into ion, or wmii, use dvorak by default, have my vimrc, etc 22:11:34 You can customize and re-burn a Knoppix distro. 22:11:40 cool 22:11:48 I'll look into that 22:11:48 --- quit: dgd2 (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 22:11:58 and, I'm sure, many others. That's just the only one I've really done anything with. 22:12:43 I'm not sure how useful it would be now that I have a little laptop 22:13:15 but I think it'd be cool to have a CD that would make someone's computer behave the way want it to without touching their HD 22:13:26 Can be done. 22:13:39 Can be done right off of the USB key, for systems that boot from USB 22:13:48 yeah 22:13:56 is that common on pc hardware yet? 22:14:15 you could boot macs off usb since they had usb ports afaik 22:14:23 Bit of a mixed bag. There's at least two ways of booting from a USB key, and different systems support different methods. 22:15:02 do they require that the key be set up differently? 22:15:20 I can also imagine using this as a demo 22:15:25 As far as I can tell, yes. My reading didn't turn up any way to make one key that would work on both breeds. 22:15:33 though I don't have something I need to demo atm 22:15:49 pc hardware is such a mess 22:16:09 I hope openbios or some such thing takes off and there's some consistency between BIOSes 22:16:20 If we're lucky. 22:16:28 So saying, I'm off; early morning coming up.' 22:16:40 g'night! :) 22:16:50 be seeing you! 22:18:13 --- quit: Al2O3 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:18:21 yeah :) I'll probably pop in some other night. 22:18:33 I'm vacationing until Sept. 2nd 22:18:40 lucky :) 22:18:43 :) 22:18:47 I gotta get some work done 22:18:51 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@12.144.193.67) joined #forth 22:18:53 but not all that much 22:19:21 well, actually the last place I'm going I'm doing 5 hours a day of childcare 22:19:25 but they're paying me 22:19:43 --- quit: timlarson (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:19:44 I'm planning on enjoying it though, not thinking of it as work 22:19:52 we'll see how that goes :) 22:19:55 :) 22:20:06 sleep well :) 22:20:08 good luck 23:53:18 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.08.08