00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.08.01
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11:00:45 <Sieur_de_Bienvil> Hello.
11:02:05 <JasonWoof> hi
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11:22:01 <sgx___> hi. all. is it forth/os an operating system? From Where can I download a release/or distribution? thank sin advance
11:22:59 <kc5tja> This question is hard to answer.
11:23:03 <kc5tja> Forth is a programming language.
11:23:14 <kc5tja> But it has been implemented as a hardware-native OS.
11:23:21 <kc5tja> There are no distributions of Forth-based OSes.
11:24:33 <sgx___> ah! ok
11:24:35 <sgx___> thanks
11:27:22 <tetonca> forth is a concept not an implementation. ;)
11:27:35 <tetonca> There's hundreds of the latter but (arguably) only one of the former.
11:28:02 <tetonca> sgx___ I'm having good luck with ciforth.
11:28:05 <tetonca> recommend it.
11:29:21 <tetonca> look at [ http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/forthimpl.html ].
11:29:54 <tetonca> One version of it can be written as the OS directly to media.
11:30:08 <tetonca> The linux version works fine without glibc present.
11:30:36 <tetonca> (a consideration if you're running Firmware Linux which is uClib, not glibc, based).
11:32:27 <sgx___> tetonca. thanks. i'm reading but, but that means that forth has to run over a linux linux kernel?
11:32:44 <tetonca> sgx: optional. your choice.
11:33:26 <tetonca> Linux will provide access to hardware you might not have drivers for in a more generic installation of Forth (stand-alone).
11:34:41 <tetonca> The ciforth I run can run any Linux command from inside Forth.  Ex. 'S" ./do.sh" SYSTEM'.
11:34:41 <sgx___> aha
11:35:15 <tetonca> Seeing color-ls run from inside forth is an experience you might enjoy.
11:35:47 <tetonca> For an OS that runs on the bare hardware Native Oberon is also worth a look.
11:36:57 <tetonca> See [ http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/ ].
11:37:17 * kc5tja LOVES Oberon.
11:37:45 <tetonca> Really.  Neat.  I like booting Oberon on the laptop when I need a word processor in 30 seconds and it's powered off.  To jot down ideas.
11:37:57 <kc5tja> It is unfortunate that few projects are written in Oberon.
11:38:18 <tetonca> I haven't seen a Forth for oberon .. would the metaphors work?
11:38:25 <kc5tja> Alas, nobody will use it because it's totally foreign territory for open-source contributors.
11:38:54 <kc5tja> Metaphors?
11:38:54 <sgx___> thanks. i'm playing now with lina...
11:39:22 <tetonca> kc5tja: (from wa1tnr) I mean the fact that Oberon isn't a CLI like many/most Forths are.
11:41:02 <kc5tja> Well, if you're implementing a pure ANSI Forth, I doubt it'd be easy to implement, since Oberon is a pure event-driven architecture, while Forth assumes a sequential process model.
11:41:14 <kc5tja> It's doable, but it gets really hairy really quick.
11:41:37 <kc5tja> It's better to just write a Forth which has a new user interface, but which implements as many of the ANS words as you can, and ditch the rest.
11:41:52 <kc5tja> But, you'll also need to constrain the runtime environment too.
11:42:13 <kc5tja> Forth grants total access to its memory space, but Oberon is incompatible with this (due to objects being "managed" by the garbage collector).
11:42:23 <tetonca> kc5tja: I was thinking more along the lines of using the terminal emulation in Oberon to talk to a forth.
11:42:28 <kc5tja> So you'll need to make sure that @ and ! and friends are constrained.
11:42:37 <tetonca> Which would of course break the Oberon 'metaphor' as I call it.
11:42:53 <kc5tja> I just don't understand what you mean then.
11:43:08 <kc5tja> Are you saying to talk to a Forth system on another machine?
11:43:14 <tetonca> Well in Oberon to do something you mouse-click.  In forth you type <ENTER>.
11:43:29 <kc5tja> Unless your Oberon program was written with a CLI interface.
11:43:39 <tetonca> I don't know what I'm saying.  I'm trying to think of how these two great technologies could interact.
11:43:54 <kc5tja> I think you're over-thinking it.  :)
11:44:08 <kc5tja> AmigaOS was a combined GUI/CLI environment, and you just wrote your code to use one or both models.
11:46:44 <tetonca> sgx: I've found a shell script with './lina -s ./myforth.fs' compiles nicely to a forth you can extend by invoking it directly.  'lina -s ./myforth.fs' is same as typing commands inside lina (including '"myforth" SAVE-SYSTEM').
11:47:47 <tetonca> (.frt isn't recognized by vim' syntax highlighting and .fs isn't complained about in lina).
11:48:49 <tetonca> gforth is possibly more useable generally but requires glibc present.
11:49:30 <I440r> isforth??? :)
11:49:38 <I440r> isforth doesnt use glib or any OTHER lib
11:49:48 <tetonca> cool. where is it?
11:49:53 <I440r> but isforth isnt ans 
11:49:55 <I440r> isforth.clss.net
11:50:01 <tetonca> I don't care about ans that much.
11:50:12 <tetonca> tnx.
11:50:48 <tetonca> I've seen this.
11:50:57 <I440r> u have seen isforth?
11:51:02 <tetonca> Sure.
11:51:20 <tetonca> Seems to me he had something going I needed -- maybe on a microcontroller.
11:51:21 <I440r> was it insufficient for your needs?
11:51:29 <I440r> 8051?
11:51:35 <tetonca> yeah 8051 indeed.
11:51:47 <tetonca> I wanted it on C8051F120 ;)
11:51:51 <I440r> he == me... you used my 8051 assembler??? :)
11:51:58 <I440r> oooohhh
11:52:12 <tetonca> I think you were onto that at some pt.  hi.
11:52:12 <I440r> is that a cygnal 8051?
11:52:17 <tetonca> Yes it is.
11:52:38 <tetonca> I run AMRForth for C8051F330 presently.  That's gforth-based.
11:52:41 <I440r> yes. ive written two 8051 forths for cygnal processors but they werent complete
11:53:00 <I440r> yea i was writing a native arm forth for the nintendo ds too
11:53:09 <tetonca> So that's why I've seen it. The web page style is distinct enough (color scheme) that I recognized it immediately just now.
11:53:18 <I440r> purple :P
11:53:31 <tetonca> Hehe.  I almost wrote you at some pt.
11:53:40 <I440r> if i could write an assemblers other than 8051 i'd be set
11:53:50 <I440r> i need an x86 assembler AND an arm assembler
11:54:21 <tetonca> I'll definitely look into your repository to see what you've been up to.
11:54:32 <I440r> sigh. not much
11:54:47 <I440r> i wrote a debugger tho and some code for a specific I/O board
11:54:49 <tetonca> I'm not up to your skill level anyway but I can sometimes fit someone else's work to my needs.
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11:55:09 <I440r> i basiclly ported the c code drivers for it so its horrible code
11:55:09 <tetonca> The F120 is a monster of an 8051.
11:55:13 <I440r> yes
11:55:40 <tetonca> I have the target board but it's paperweight since I aquired it.  I won't run silabs tools with it.  I have them tho. ;)
11:56:23 <I440r> i developed a forth compiler for the 120 i believe, i wanted it to interface with isforth but i never got that far
11:56:35 <tetonca> Charley at AMR is supposed to be sending me an AMRForth port for the F120 but haven't heard from him in a while.
11:56:48 <tetonca> I think Wolfgang Allinger has F120 going with AMRF.
11:57:41 <I440r> i ported isforth to dos 16 bits and wrote a serial term app to talk to my 8051 forth 
11:57:49 <tetonca> cool!
11:57:59 <tetonca> What 8051 do you run your forth on?
11:58:01 <I440r> i have the cygnal (si labs) target board
11:58:18 <I440r> erm i THINK i did one for the 120 lol
11:58:23 <tetonca> wow.
11:58:28 <I440r> i did two but they were done like 3 or 4 years ago
11:58:40 <tetonca> I have a JTAG-programmed F330 I use to initialize other F330's with. ;)
11:58:42 <I440r> i never released the dos version of isforth
11:59:03 <I440r> its coded using eric isaacsons a386 assembler
11:59:29 <I440r> with the a386 macro language i can assemble a entire forth kernel with threadded vocabularies
11:59:32 <I440r> HASHED
11:59:52 <TreyB> Cheater ;-)
11:59:53 <I440r> im particularly proud of those macros lol... 
12:00:03 <tetonca> So publish or the secret dies with you. ;)
12:00:28 <I440r> cant do that with nasm, isforth has to go thru each vocab on launch and RE hash them all. i.e. all words are "assembled" onto the first chain of a vocab
12:00:42 <I440r> do you have a386/d386?
12:00:59 <I440r> its the 386+ version of a86
12:01:08 <tetonca> I haven't done anything with those, so I don't know how to answer.
12:01:24 <tetonca> Are those old-school assemblers?
12:01:25 <I440r> which i think is the best assembler ever created (equal to devpac for the amiga )
12:01:49 * kc5tja never liked devpac.  I always prefered a68k+ and blink.
12:02:11 <I440r> i like the way devpac could do
12:02:20 <I440r> label   code              comment
12:02:26 <I440r> with no ; to start the comment
12:02:39 <I440r> anything after valid label/code on a line is automatically treated as a comment
12:03:21 <tetonca> All the assembler I know I wrote inside AMRForth for F3xx series (silabs).
12:03:58 <I440r> ok, lunch, bbl
12:04:11 <tetonca> rgr. nice to meet u.
12:07:39 * kc5tja cannot stand NOT using ; to initiate a comment.
12:07:40 <kc5tja> :)
12:08:09 <kc5tja> Too many times I've had cases where I've accidentally entered wrong code, and the assembler thought half of my instruction was a comment.
12:08:31 <kc5tja> Not so much a problem on the 6502/65816, but on the 68000, it can be a pain.
12:08:32 <tetonca> heh. /me afk a bit.
12:08:47 * kc5tja will be here....plodding along with Java...
12:08:57 <kc5tja> Although I'll get to lunch myself in about 30 to 40 minutes or so.
12:22:03 <tetonca> back.
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14:06:00 <H4ns> has anyone here been at a euroforth?
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14:07:40 <Quartus__> hey.
14:08:33 <tetonca> hi.
14:09:05 <tetonca> This is getting to be a bit like BBSing in the final days.  All the users were also sysops.
14:09:15 <kc5tja> ??
14:11:01 <H4ns> in the sense of "every forth programmer also has written at least one forth himself"?
14:11:52 <I440r> quote: no unix system admin can truly call themselves a real unix sys admin until they had configured sendmail at least once. and nobody in their right mind would want to do it twice
14:12:03 <I440r> how can you call yourself a forth coder if you never created your own forth :)
14:12:28 <H4ns> hm.  oh well.  may i still be here?
14:12:51 <H4ns> i'm looking for a forth running on microcore natively.  maybe i need to create that myself. :)
14:12:56 <tetonca> ;)
14:12:56 <I440r> :)
14:13:16 <tetonca> I was just suprised at the high S/N ratio.
14:13:21 <I440r> your here soaking in the rays of forthness in prep for creating your own masterpiece :)
14:14:26 * H4ns is a little afraid that he'll never be able to return to the software industry once that happened.
14:15:07 <tetonca> I4: any magic words needed besides 'fsave <thisforth>' in isforth?
14:15:08 <I440r> in here?
14:15:31 <I440r> its always been my personal policy to NOT dictate to you what you may or may not chat about in here
14:16:48 <TreyB> H4ns: You don't *have* to want to create your own forth to hang out here, but if you stay you may find yourself wanting to create one "just because".
14:17:46 <tetonca> It's probably the only way to understand forth in depth.
14:18:54 <H4ns> hm.  i might instead ask my son to create his own forth.  but then he'll propably never be able to get a "normal" computer related job when he comes to the age.
14:19:14 <TreyB> You can *use* Forth without writing your own, but if you have the least bit of interest in compilers or such FORTH makes it so easy to poke around.
14:19:20 <H4ns> anyway.  hopefull i'll find some time to work on maisforth on the weekend, i'll then pester you again.
14:19:46 <H4ns> (first i need to convince xilinx' data2mem to not crash anymore, though :/ )
14:21:03 <tetonca> Who wants a normal job?
14:21:34 <slava> creating a new forth is good if it will fill some new niche
14:21:52 <slava> but creating yet another 80% implementation of half of ANS forth is a waste of time, IMHO
14:21:56 <H4ns> amforth met that goal nicely.
14:22:19 <H4ns> having an interactive environment on a $3 DIL chip is teh rox
14:22:36 <I440r> slava if it is done as a learning experience
14:22:47 <slava> but what is there to learn?
14:23:02 <I440r> forth
14:23:14 <slava> you can learn forth without implementing it form scratch
14:23:18 <slava> by writing applications and libraries
14:23:32 <TreyB> Nah, you learn about compilation, not FORTH.
14:23:34 <slava> isforth is cool, don't get me wrong
14:24:29 <TreyB> Do as slava says and write apps and/or libraries if you want to learn FORTH.
14:25:29 <H4ns> i don't want to learn forth for the sake of it.  i use it for hardware control, and i need a small self-hosted forth for an fpga project i am doing.
14:26:11 <TreyB> In that case the folks here can probably help.
14:27:56 <H4ns> yeah, you guys already helped.  i'm happy to be your user!   bye for now.
14:28:06 <tetonca> see you.
14:32:37 <Quartus__> I'll add my two cents to that; you don't learn Forth by building a Forth.
14:34:26 <I440r> i learned more about forth by creating isforth than in the whole of the time i was using it
14:34:33 <I440r> the language i mean
14:35:12 <slava> i've noticed factor contributors who write real code often have better insight into how the language should evolve than i do
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14:36:52 <kc5tja> I think Factor has the benefit of being a single codebase.
14:37:07 <kc5tja> Forth has so many implementations that this doesn't occur.
14:37:21 <kc5tja> So instead of contributing back to the Forth implementation, people just invent their own Forths.
14:37:30 <slava> yeah, that's a bit of a pity.
16:42:44 --- log: started forth/07.08.01
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16:42:44 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language and a variety of technical subjects. Introduction and Helpful Reading: http://forthfreak.net/index.cgi?FnFC | ANS/ISO Forth Standard doc: http://tinyurl.com/nx7dx | Gforth compiler: http://tinyurl.com/s8uho | http://quartus.net/search | Paste: http://forth.pastebin.ca | http://angg.twu.net/miniforth-article.html <- due soon. Suggestions? 8-|'
16:42:44 --- topic: set by edrx on [Thu Jul 12 17:04:11 2007]
16:42:44 --- names: list (clog Sieur_de_Bienvil @Quartus @crc wossname crest_ @tathi neceve Quartus__ Snoopy42 @slava @JasonWoof madwork nighty^ Baughn mem4tim gnomon uiuiu H4ns kc5tja slava32 cmeme segher timlarson mrsbrisby ccfg @I440r TreyB tris tlockney warpzero maht madgarden uiuiuiu)
16:43:51 <Quartus> I suppose 'it depends' is not an adequate answer :)
16:44:14 <kc5tja> Have you heard of the 3-instruction Forth system?
16:44:17 <Quartus> In broadest terms, the host has some mechanism for executing code in the target
16:44:17 * kc5tja tries to dig a URL
16:44:31 <Sieur_de_Bienvil> No, I haven't.
16:44:58 <kc5tja> http://pygmy.utoh.org/3ins4th.html -- this might be helpful.  But also others might have other ideas too.  Quartus has more experience than I do in this area.  :)
16:45:09 <kc5tja> This seems to fulfill what Quartus was saying though.
16:45:10 <Sieur_de_Bienvil> Thank you very much.
16:46:49 <Sieur_de_Bienvil> Oooh! Cool!
16:48:43 <Sieur_de_Bienvil> This just what I needed! Thanks again!
16:49:39 <kc5tja> No problems.
16:49:53 <kc5tja> this page actually was the original inspiration for my Kestrel-1's IPL circuitry.  :D
16:50:29 <kc5tja> Alas, I couldn't get it to support bidirectional data flow for some retarded reason (it had something to do with the PC's parallel port), so I couldn't use it for debugging purposes.
16:55:42 <Sieur_de_Bienvil> That's a shame.
17:00:22 <Sieur_de_Bienvil> I like this:
17:00:22 <Sieur_de_Bienvil>  Had we but memory enough and time, 
17:00:22 <Sieur_de_Bienvil>      this wastefulness, Programmer, were no crime.
17:00:22 <Sieur_de_Bienvil>  The embedded system box is a private place and fine, 
17:00:22 <Sieur_de_Bienvil>      but none should there, I think, megabyte ROMs enshrine.
17:01:06 <Quartus> Somebody with a Wordsworth fetish and too much time on his hands? :)
17:01:25 <Sieur_de_Bienvil> lol
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19:35:24 <Sieur_de_Bienvil> Hello again.
19:46:20 <Quartus> Hello.
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