00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.07.28
02:59:26 --- log: started forth/07.07.28
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02:59:26 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language and a variety of technical subjects. Introduction and Helpful Reading: http://forthfreak.net/index.cgi?FnFC | ANS/ISO Forth Standard doc: http://tinyurl.com/nx7dx | Gforth compiler: http://tinyurl.com/s8uho | http://quartus.net/search | Paste: http://forth.pastebin.ca | http://angg.twu.net/miniforth-article.html <- due soon. Suggestions? 8-|'
02:59:26 --- topic: set by edrx on [Thu Jul 12 17:04:11 2007]
02:59:26 --- names: list (clog Al2O3 @slava probonono timlarson__ nighty^ pierpa crest_ Snoopy42 gnomon mrsbrisby ccfg madwork @I440r TreyB cmeme segher tris mem4tim tlockney kc5tja @crc warpzero maht madgarden uiuiuiu)
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09:29:50 <nighty^> hi
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12:05:28 <snowrichard> hi
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12:08:43 <Quartus> Hi.
12:19:37 <snowrichard> how have you been Quartus
12:19:47 <Quartus> Hanging in. You?
12:19:50 <snowrichard> weather is lousy here, rain every day
12:20:04 <Quartus> yuck!
12:24:02 <snowrichard> I've got a Jornada 547 I think. the builtin apps are ok, but I was wondering if you'd heard of any software development kits for that were reasonably priced
12:25:29 <snowrichard> its Pocket PC 2002 I think
12:26:48 <snowrichard> I've got a wireless card and a serial cable/modem
12:27:57 <snowrichard> rather a serial cable and a modem
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13:44:28 <H4ns> hi.  i have maisforth (which is supposed to be ans forth) running on a 6809 based system, and "hex b0b0 ." gives me an error message.  is it me, or is maisforth in trouble?
13:44:53 <Quartus> Well, in what context are you using that phrase?  Inside a definitino?
13:44:58 <Quartus> er, definition
13:45:02 <H4ns> no, just at the prompt.
13:45:16 <Quartus> I don't know maisforth, but possibly wants hex in uppercase?
13:45:18 <H4ns> i'm trying to enter a hex address of a device that i want to play around with.
13:45:28 <H4ns> great! thanks! :)
13:45:39 <Quartus> :)
13:48:36 <H4ns> woha.  cool.  this fpga based 6809 now speaks forth *drool*
13:48:42 <H4ns> thanks, quartus!
13:48:44 <Quartus> heh
13:48:50 <Quartus> Glad I could help.
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13:53:32 <kc5tja> H4ns: How is the FPGA-based 6809 compare to the Motorola 6809 in terms of instruction timings?  Is it the same, or were improvements made?
13:54:15 <kc5tja> s/is/does/
13:54:34 <H4ns> kc5tja: i'm not sure about the timing, but the clock speed is higher (12.5 mhz) than any of the real 6809s that existed.
13:55:02 <kc5tja> Ahh.
13:55:05 <H4ns> kc5tja: if you really want to know, ask john kent.  i'm just a user.
13:55:30 <kc5tja> I'm assuming John Kent is the author of the VHDL/Verilog for it?
13:56:26 <H4ns> right.  google for 'john kent system09'
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14:26:48 <slava> hi kc5tja 
14:27:15 <Quartus__> Hi slava
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14:36:43 <slava> Quartus__: i'm still waiting for doty to come up with some code from that thread where he declared ans forth control structures as 'algol-style' and useless
14:36:58 <slava> the boolean matrix multiplication, remember?
14:37:10 <Quartus__> hopefully you're not holding your breath!
14:37:40 <slava> i am, and i've done irreparable damage to my brain, thanks to doty
14:38:20 <Quartus__> heh
14:38:31 <tathi> :)
14:38:57 <slava> Quartus__: i'm looking forward to LSE128
14:39:38 <Quartus__> I'm waiting for LSE256..
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15:31:42 <tathi> Yikes.  Doty's control structures are rather scary.
15:38:05 <kc5tja> They are algol-style, but they're far from useless.
15:38:33 <slava> because they're defined using the language itself, they're definitely not algol-style.
15:38:44 <kc5tja> Bullshit.
15:38:48 <slava> in algol, control structures are 'keywords' and are strictly the domain of the language implementor.
15:39:03 <kc5tja> That is an orthogonal issue.
15:39:31 <kc5tja> What makes them Algol-style is their source of inspiration.
15:39:45 <kc5tja> Forth borrows concepts from BASIC, Fortran, and Algol, pretty much equally.
15:39:54 <slava> basic?
15:39:56 <kc5tja> The fact that you can implement them in terms of the language itself is immaterial.
15:39:59 <kc5tja> FOR/NEXT
15:40:05 <slava> heh
15:49:45 <Quartus> 'algol-style' is apparently meant as some kind of pejorative.  The commonly-encountered Forth control-flow structures are the same as found in many procedural languages.
15:50:48 <Quartus> Considering the source, that the criticism is vague, obtuse, and wrong is hardly surprising.
15:53:13 <Quartus> slava: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth/msg/9222165b4a56990d
15:55:26 <slava>  p :variable
15:55:26 <slava> q :variable
15:55:26 <slava> (v-v-dot) : p @@+ q @@+ *. +.
15:55:27 <slava> v-v-dot : p ! q ! 0.0 swap (v-v-dot) iterate 
15:55:32 <slava> how would you write this in ANS?
16:10:06 <Quartus> I'd have to back-translate it to figure out what the intent is.
16:29:47 <tathi> v-v-dot ( #elements addr1 addr2 -- dot-product )
16:30:11 <Quartus> and the dot-product is a single value?
16:30:44 <tathi> yeah
16:30:46 <slava> yup
16:30:53 <tathi> addr1 and addr2 point to arrays of floating-point numbers
16:30:57 <Quartus> ah
16:31:01 <tathi> #elements tells how long they both are
16:35:20 <tathi> : v-v-dot ( #elements addr1 addr2 -- )  ( F: -- dot-product ) 0e rot 0 do 2dup  i floats + f@  i floats + f@  f* f+ loop ;
16:35:46 <Quartus> That assumes a separate float stack.  I'd make the word ( addr1 addr2 #elements ) given a choice.
16:35:52 <tathi> yeah.
16:38:12 <tathi> hrm.
16:38:24 <tathi> without a separate float stack it looks pretty sticky to me.
16:38:36 <Quartus> Not a practical concern.
16:38:44 <slava> 0 [ * + ] 2reduce
16:38:47 <tathi> but I admit I haven't done any floating-point math code in a forth without a separate stack
16:38:52 <slava> no need for a separate float stack :)
16:40:40 <Quartus> well, slava, no need to remind you that factor isn't forth :)
16:41:51 <Quartus> naming concerns aside;
16:41:53 <Quartus> : f@++ ( f-addr -- f-addr' )  dup f@ 1 floats + ;
16:41:53 <Quartus> : 2f@++ ( f-addr1 f-addr2 -- f-addr1' f-addr2' ) ( F: -- r1 r2 )  f@++ swap f@++ swap ;
16:41:53 <Quartus> : v-v-dot ( f-addr1 f-addr2 #elements -- ) ( F: -- dot-product )  0e  0 do  2f@++ f* f+  loop  2drop ;
16:42:34 <Quartus> of course 1 floats + can be float+
16:43:25 <Quartus> In this case 2f@++ does more work than it needs to, as the final swap would not affect the result, but it's more general-purpose this way
16:43:32 <Quartus> Not too chuffed with the ++ names though
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17:52:48 <Quartus> not happy with v-v-dot either
17:53:14 <Quartus> and I'd probably use ?do instead of do
17:53:25 <Quartus> -- it's the name 'v-v-dot' I dont' like
17:53:54 <tathi> ya
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18:23:01 <kc5tja> Doesn't the ANS standard permit a unified data and float stack?
18:37:57 <slava> yes
18:45:52 <Quartus> it does, though the defacto standard is a separate stack
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