00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.06.19 00:12:47 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:55:36 --- quit: skas_wk ("Leaving") 01:57:40 --- part: RayS left #forth 01:58:07 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-147-65.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 01:59:38 --- part: RayS left #forth 02:12:47 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-147-65.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 02:26:45 --- join: skas_wk (n=skas@202-90-54-135.static.linearg.net) joined #forth 02:26:46 --- quit: skas_wk (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:41:05 --- join: skas_wk (n=skas@202.90.54.135) joined #forth 02:55:11 --- quit: skas_wk ("Leaving") 03:04:53 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 03:25:11 --- join: skas_wk (n=skas@202-90-54-135.static.linearg.net) joined #forth 04:48:21 --- part: RayS left #forth 05:06:08 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-147-65.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:08:27 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 06:20:53 Howdy all. 06:30:44 --- quit: skas_wk ("Leaving") 07:12:32 hey 07:41:06 --- nick: yumehito_ -> yumehito 08:01:39 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-db9766da4eb2a0ed) joined #forth 08:24:30 --- join: madwork (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 08:37:11 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:58:00 --- join: rabbitwhite (n=Miranda@c-24-126-64-144.hsd1.md.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:27:15 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 09:46:49 --- quit: jns (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:05:44 --- join: ygrek_ (i=user@gateway/tor/x-ef6a292848bdf799) joined #forth 10:17:10 --- quit: rabbitwhite ("New look! Same great product.") 10:24:16 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 11:23:39 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 11:23:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 11:40:07 --- join: edrx (i=edrx@201.5.13.245) joined #forth 11:56:47 --- join: rabbitwhite (n=Miranda@c-24-126-64-144.hsd1.md.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:03:56 --- quit: rabbitwhite ("New look! Same great product.") 12:28:24 --- join: ravenEx (n=a@87.252.242.16) joined #forth 12:37:00 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-160-140.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 12:51:07 --- quit: ygrek_ (Remote closed the connection) 12:53:05 --- join: ygrek_ (i=user@gateway/tor/x-4e36ec05211b9fae) joined #forth 13:22:17 --- quit: ygrek_ () 13:48:31 --- join: rabbitwhite (n=Miranda@c-24-126-64-144.hsd1.md.comcast.net) joined #forth 14:20:01 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@205.205.50.1) joined #forth 14:20:26 hi 14:21:26 --- join: timlarson__ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 14:23:11 hey Quartus 14:24:42 Quartus: reddit readers seem to put forth in the same category as brainfuck, whitespace, intercal, etc 14:24:48 "brain twister/academic language" 14:24:48 --- quit: timlarson__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:28:48 --- part: edrx left #forth 14:29:13 An unfortunate reflection of modern CS education. 14:36:04 or does reddit only attract junior java g-men? I don't know it well enough to say. 14:36:20 there's a fair number of those 14:36:34 you also have the young, inexperienced hackers who latch onto one fashionable language and bash the rest 14:36:37 usually this language is python or ruby 14:37:02 I know the type. 14:37:12 "web 2.0!" 14:39:29 --- quit: timlarson_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:39:33 yeah 14:40:06 there's one amusing C#/microsoft guy who posts in almost any lisp/functional programming/ruby/python/c++ etc-related thread 14:40:14 "yeah, but what does this give me that microsoft tools don't?" 14:41:01 gatesb@microsoft.com 14:42:54 well, really, what does Shakespeare give you that Stephen King doesn't? Or Bach, over Britney? 14:43:28 clearly Britney is superior; she might not be a good musician, but she knows how to get the tabloids worked up 14:44:04 plus that photo of shakespeare holding flowers over his nipples doesn't sell nearly as much copy 14:49:58 probably the best answer for that guy is "You? Nothing." 14:59:35 --- quit: rabbitwhite ("New look! Same great product.") 15:09:19 I wonder why a single-toolset coder, convinced that he's in the catbird seat, would feel moved to read, nevermind respond to, posts on alternative approaches? 15:10:59 maybe he feels he constantly has to justify his choice? 15:12:45 i'm mostly a 'single-toolset coder' because i do most of my programming in factor. but i keep an open mind and try to understand the alternatives 15:14:18 yeah, but you didn't start and stop at factor 15:14:59 when i used to lurk in #java there'd be a lot of people joining and asking "I'm looking for a programming language to learn, should I learn Java or C#? Which one will guarantee I can get a job?" 15:15:24 yeah, I've run into that too. It's the extension of the university crowd who incessantly chant 'will this be on the exam'? 15:15:26 more disturbingly, this question would come up except instead of languages, it would be _web frameworks_ 15:15:50 it seems absurd but in the java world, job descriptions typically list specific libraries you will be using 15:15:54 These people should go into plumbing. There's a greater need. 15:16:14 and if your resume doesn't list these particular libraries, they'll pick the kid with no experience who stuffed every buzzword on his resume, over you, who could learn the library in a few hours of writing actual code with it 15:17:03 Sure. If you really want a chained-to-the-desk coder job. 15:18:59 Imagine a prospective doctor asking what specialty he should learn based on how lucrative it is! Though doubtless that happens, in one for or another 15:19:31 why become a doctor anyway? all the jobs are in fast food 15:19:56 Really. What does haute cuisine give you that McDonalds doesn't? 15:42:56 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:46:38 --- quit: ravenEx (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:49:05 --- join: rabbitwhite (n=Miranda@c-24-126-64-144.hsd1.md.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:14:58 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 16:17:48 --- join: skas_wk (n=skas@121.127.198.32) joined #forth 16:19:19 --- nick: RayS -> spookiefries 16:33:46 --- nick: spookiefries -> RayS 16:38:12 besides apple pie in cardboard boxes, of course 16:38:25 superheated apple pie 16:39:26 Haute cuisine gives you nutrition, that MickyD's doesn't. Well, besides the superheated cardboard applepie, sure. 16:42:54 nothing beats apple plasma 16:44:57 belching from a flattened cardboard cylinder 17:35:38 apple plasma, ha 17:36:06 sure it contains any apple product? 17:36:16 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 17:36:16 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 17:36:19 could just be sugar and artificial flavoring. and don't forget the animal fat 17:36:50 That is known as "apple food product" in the industry. 17:37:02 If it's an animal, it's the sweetened applesaurus. 17:37:15 sh*t hehe 17:38:02 My applesaurus is just now reacting to the topical cream. 17:38:16 Or the applocerous, or even the green spottted applepottamus 17:39:50 It's like tacoBell, you take all the same ingredients and get "Food Designers" to make it look like things in nature. 17:43:05 Ever had the instant oatmeal that comes with "fruit" in. The "fruit" reconstitutes ok, but you can not chew through it very easily. 17:43:28 it's only meant to be decorative 17:43:33 hahaha 17:44:07 good one /me still giggling. 18:00:03 --- join: bobber (n=kavacon@c-67-190-205-78.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:00:15 Hi all 18:00:21 hi bobber 18:00:56 Quartus: Got some words to open and write to a serial port today :) 18:01:21 sounds like the first line of a blues song 18:01:34 Hahahahaha 18:02:24 No, just a small but pleasant victory 18:02:53 I figured you came by with another question.' 18:04:14 Yes that too 18:05:28 Whats the difference between using open/load, fload, or include, to bring definitions from a text file into a Forth session? 18:06:25 What forth again? 18:06:39 Still playing with F-PC 18:07:09 at a random guess, without the f-pc docs open, open/load is for blocks, fload is for mumblemumble, and include works the way I'd expect. 18:07:17 hehe 18:07:17 f-pc doesn't have blocks 18:07:34 the rest sounds about right 18:07:35 bobber, you need to consult the f-pc docs 18:08:14 Quartus: I have been, but so far no real help there...I'll keep hunting 18:08:14 it's olde, arcane, pre-standard, and fully-packed with redundant versions of a number of things. 18:08:30 f-pc is pretty cool 18:08:50 For some value of cool, maybe. But it does have the kitchen sink in it. 18:09:41 the fload word in isforth is exactly the same as include on most systems 18:09:45 it has nice tools and good docs. i don't think many forth systems can claim that today. 18:09:47 dunno how good of an indication that is 18:11:28 the 'handy reference' has include, and open, but neither load nor fload 18:12:41 --- quit: tgunr (Remote closed the connection) 18:14:17 looks like fload is an alias for include. There's . 18:14:30 so...just use include, and ignore the rest :) 18:14:36 yeah 18:15:07 Sounds good 18:15:13 oh, here's LOAD 18:15:14 LOAD Load current file starting from line n. n is optional. If it is omitted, load from line 1. 18:15:23 yikes 18:15:30 definitely don't acclimatize yourself to that 18:15:56 i've never felt like loading a file from line n 18:16:07 I never start later than line j 18:16:57 how is n optional? 18:17:03 yixes 18:17:04 it checks the stack depth 18:17:09 yes, yikes indeed 18:17:12 ugh 18:17:29 you see what I mean. Arcane and packed with squirrel fur. 18:17:49 could be worse. Could be koala fur. 18:17:58 Quartus: Why is it bad practice to check the stack depth? 18:18:23 because it leads to fragile and unmaintainable code 18:18:32 you might have something on the stack that has nothing to do with LOAD 18:18:34 if FOO has stack effect ( x -- ), i'd expect that 4 FOO . prints 4 18:19:04 bobber, it assumes one of two conditions: either the stack is empty when LOAD is encountered, or there is at least one item on it. There's no way to call LOAD with its default behaviour if you have anything already on the stack. 18:19:42 It's really extra double-dog stupid, because if it finds the stack empty, it uses 1 for n. So there's no circumstance under which you couldn't just pass in the 1. 18:20:02 well, for interactive use, LOAD foo.fs is more convenient than 1 LOAD foo.fs 18:20:10 but i question the need for this feature altogether 18:20:27 hang on -- it loads from 'the current file', not from specified filename 18:20:30 where can i download the latest fpc? 18:20:34 Quartus: oh 18:21:04 Says here FPC's include nesting depth is 4. 18:21:09 More fur. 18:21:17 why would this depth be a magic number/ 18:21:33 It means you can only include from within a file down to four levels. 18:21:35 seems a sane implementation would only depend on call stack depth? 18:21:40 Oh. Yes, it would. 18:21:42 i know what it means, i'm asking why the limitation would exist. 18:22:00 where did you find your copy of fp? 18:22:01 fpc? 18:22:03 i can't find it online anymore 18:22:17 Probably..... the implementor used a separate data structure for tracking open files. 18:22:24 And set it to four. 18:22:38 slava: I got it from Taygeta 18:22:44 3.6? 18:22:48 version 3.6 is here: http://www.forth.org/eforth.html 18:22:49 is this the latest? 18:22:53 think so 18:22:54 k 18:24:35 so as I was saying, you may like F-PC, even have the warm fuzzies for it, but it is both olde, arcane, and redolent of dried spider monkey urine. 18:25:13 Quartus: But other than that it is fine....right? ;) ;) 18:25:32 Yes, just the thing to confuse you permanently. 18:25:46 Hahahaha. Too late for that 18:26:30 bobber, to your question, checking the stack depth to ensure that sufficient parameters are available is sometimes a good idea. Filling them in if they aren't is a horribly bad idea. 18:28:35 Also, with F-PC, you get the machine that goes 'Ting'! 18:29:03 Quartus: Yes, I understand.....You may have something on (or at a particular place in) the stack. 18:29:13 now I don't understand. 18:29:56 Point is that words should be at least vaguely deterministic, it's helpful. 18:30:45 If you check stack depth, throw an exception if there's a problem. That's the sensible thing. 18:31:16 depth 3 < abort" Holy crappin' dogs, you ain't got enuf paramiters!" 18:31:49 i don't think that's very useful 18:32:12 you would prefer the dogs are performing some other anatomical function? 18:32:27 yup 18:33:00 depth 4 abort" Sweet Jebus on whole wheat toast, you done called this word with a surfeit of requisite information!" 18:33:13 WHOA! left out the < 18:33:39 Horendus crash! 18:33:49 In Quartus Forth I check stack depth in only a couple of places. 18:35:37 One is on the executable generator; it takes an xt and a special application identifier, and if either were missing the resulting garbage on the stack would create a random executable, and then crash. 18:36:02 So it seemed friendly to check. 18:44:12 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 18:48:59 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-164-182.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 18:59:22 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:06:31 --- quit: bobber () 19:37:20 --- quit: rabbitwhite ("New look! Same great product.") 20:07:25 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-174-090.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 20:25:00 --- join: yumehito_ (n=yumehito@b-internet.87.103.254.70.snt.ru) joined #forth 20:37:44 --- quit: yumehito (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:59:47 --- quit: crc (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)) 22:43:38 --- join: Raystm2- (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-149-24.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 22:58:14 --- quit: RayS (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:58:56 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:26:21 --- join: TreyB_ (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 23:26:31 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 23:43:25 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.06.19