00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.06.17 00:31:12 RayS: I think it's great, totally enjoyed it. I'm a n00b to forth & family. I'm implementing the idea in Atmel AVR assembler atm. : is the most complex operator but seems to be the first operator discussed in noob txts which isn't too handy for an implementor 01:11:02 --- quit: tgunr () 01:30:53 --- join: skas_wk (n=skas@202-90-54-135.static.linearg.net) joined #forth 02:13:47 --- quit: RayS (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:43:07 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-147-65.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 03:14:49 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-147-65.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 03:39:57 * skas_wk is away: Back soon 04:05:01 * skas_wk is back (gone 00:25:03) 04:48:05 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 05:19:36 --- nick: segher_ -> segher 06:01:14 --- quit: skas_wk ("Leaving") 06:15:08 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 06:53:51 maht -- what do you mean, : is complex? 07:02:27 the operator : defines complex behaviour, updating dictionaries etc. 07:02:45 if you don't use the interactive part then it's all a lot easier 07:03:03 well, perhaps a minor point, but it's not an operator; also Loeliger's book may have suggested an antiquated model in which : is its own interpretation loop. 07:04:19 I have the inner interpreter running on the AVR in 250 bytes including a dictionary containing execute dup 2dup constant and two example words 07:04:59 i'm not claiming it's forth, its just a little TIL 07:05:01 That book is rather old. It doesn't reflect the design of modern Forth systems. 07:05:40 i couldn't find a great looking "build your own forth" text from my cursory search, any suggestions ? 07:06:25 besides, I'm coding for the AVR and thought "oo, forth" rather than coding forth and saying "oo, TIL" 07:06:29 http://www.zetetics.com/bj/papers/moving1.htm is likely to be more useful than the TIL book. 07:09:53 14 years have passed on that one, too, though; native-code generation is the usual approach for modern systems 07:10:40 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p5489CE1F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 07:12:08 It's been awhile since I read it, so I can't recall if Brad's paper reflects modern design as regards : not being its own loop. 07:19:02 cheers :) 07:20:06 I don't know if it's the dictionary structure that seems complex to you, but in modern Forths, : simply sets up a new header -- not yet findable -- and sets compilation state. 07:20:08 quite a good bibliography too, Loeliger had no virtually no references 07:20:48 oh it's not complex to me now, it's just that the explanation mixes the two together and I found that confusing, once I'd worked it out I got the epiphany 07:23:04 when I was a kid the color in color-forth put me off, amusing to me now ! 07:23:54 I believe colorForth to be an extremely unfortunate effort that has undoubtedly turned many people away from Forth. 07:25:15 Who are these people being turned away by colorforth? 07:25:52 I've met a few online. Heard about Forth, dug around, found Moore, looked at what he's done recently, recoiled in horror. 07:26:21 this was in the 80s :> 07:26:27 If anything, I would think that the fractured community, and it's in ablility to co-elese ( how ever you spell that ) would be the first turn off to forth. 07:26:35 maht, then it wasn't colorforth 07:27:25 maybe you're thinking of fpc 07:28:03 hm maybe, i can't remember. I remember the name forth and looking at it and recoiling 07:28:27 yeah, fpc was somewhat daunting on first approach 07:28:50 I'm put off by the whole notion of screens tbh. 07:28:58 tbh? 07:29:13 The second turn off, why i'm taking this path I have no idea, would be the inablility of the community to rise out of the language implementation stage. 07:29:26 tbh - to be honest 07:29:38 anyway I'm over it now (except the screens part) 07:29:53 ah. Yes, blocks are arcane and antique. Modern systems use files. 07:30:11 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-d02f98e315d1adb4) joined #forth 07:30:21 i've not been so excited by a paradigm since I came across plan9 07:30:50 third turn off would be that a guy could go on playing devils advocate, and not get a charge out of the community. 07:31:34 Ray, there may be lots of reasons why someone approaching Forth gets turned off of the idea, but that doesn't exclude colorForth as one of them. 07:31:53 Modern systems are fully integrated and fun! 07:32:38 i've decided that an OS is a premature optimization 07:32:53 Lost me there. 07:32:56 It's not the only one and not always a turn off. 07:34:15 I know your opinion doesn't allow for the possiblility that it just might be a pathway into actual forth, but man that's the path I took so... 07:34:22 embedded is where it's going to be at for me for a while, my OS is called semi :> 07:36:18 When you've never seen forth before, and you stuble across it one day, eventually you see Chucks pages and frankly they are compelling to someone who's never really seen the language. 07:36:27 Eventually you see the light. 07:36:31 :) 07:37:25 lol the link of Moores homepage to the 25x multicomputer chip (awaiting funding) is 404, he'll be waiting a while ! 07:40:26 I think that refers to Chuck's previous project. 07:41:29 http://www.intellasys.net/ this is the current one, if you didn't already know. 07:44:16 Happy Father's Day! 07:44:56 * RayS had to be reminded. doh! 07:59:37 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-30-169.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:59:37 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 08:44:36 --- join: GertS69 (i=Unix@74-132-206-111.dhcp.insightbb.com) joined #forth 08:47:05 yay, my TIL is debugged and working :> 08:47:49 I shall follow RayS's advice and quit now that I've implemented the language 08:49:15 j/k I now have to burn it to flash and get the AVR doing stuff with it, my accelerometer / proximity detector & camera arrive this week I want to be ready to play with them :> 08:58:21 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 09:30:57 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:38:27 --- join: jns (n=jens@p57B0781D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 09:43:28 --- join: Amanita_Virosa (n=jenni@adsl-69-154-180-117.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 10:01:00 --- join: tgunr (n=davec@72-173-44-78.cust.wildblue.net) joined #forth 10:48:35 --- quit: Amanita_Virosa ("When all you have is a yawn, everything looks like sleep.") 11:51:31 --- part: alexshendi left #forth 11:55:46 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-84b099647782d76b) joined #forth 12:30:36 --- join: ygrek_ (i=user@gateway/tor/x-84586f574cca87b5) joined #forth 12:31:32 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 12:42:57 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@205.205.50.1) joined #forth 13:02:49 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:08:25 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@205.205.50.2) joined #forth 13:08:50 --- join: TheBlueWizard (i=TheBlueW@ts001d0569.wdc-dc.xod.concentric.net) joined #forth 13:12:56 --- quit: Baughn ("Boat to catch, back in a.. few weeks") 13:13:12 hey 13:13:48 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-638d374f60c32042) joined #forth 13:27:51 --- quit: ygrek_ (Remote closed the connection) 13:40:57 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 13:41:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 13:42:26 hey slava 13:42:30 hey 13:44:54 Whose you're Daddy? Happy Father's Day! :) 13:53:18 indeed! 13:53:48 Quartus__: You have children? 13:54:00 no. 13:54:33 Mine want me dead. They got me my favorite chocolate bar. :) The great big one. Might take me a week to consume. 13:55:01 heh 13:55:01 Every journey starts with little steps. :) 13:59:12 In Indiana it's " Hoosier Daddy". 14:06:17 i figured out a one-liner in factor which reverses permutations 14:06:20 ( scratchpad ) { 1 2 3 0 } >alist sort-values keys . 14:06:20 { 3 0 1 2 } 14:06:44 s/reverses/inverts/ 14:12:50 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 14:13:16 how is that an inversion of a permutation? 14:14:26 { 1 2 3 0 } { 3 0 1 2 } [ swap nth ] map-with . 14:14:28 { 0 1 2 3 } 14:14:55 I'll have to take your word for it. 14:18:18 that would be handy making chord inversions in music. 15:01:45 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p5489F0F4.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 15:18:38 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:38:48 --- join: rabbitwhite (n=Miranda@c-24-126-64-144.hsd1.md.comcast.net) joined #forth 15:39:26 Hey rabbitwhite: what's new on the cube? 15:51:07 i'm working on a game 15:58:09 finally 16:15:58 whats interesting is i'm finding that i'm prefering to re-code graphics and sound things simpler than using the base of code i've already written as is 16:16:38 you're writing a game in forth? 16:17:00 yeah 16:17:29 but i'm stepping cautiously 16:17:45 its all about keeping it simple 16:18:11 which forth? 16:18:45 my forth, 16:19:57 which still doesnt really have a name 16:20:22 runs on the nintendo gamecube 16:20:27 cool 16:26:58 oh yeah ... i had decided on naming it Gate Gate 16:28:30 its ok if you criticize it, you can't hurt its feelings 16:33:23 --- join: Guest6357457 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-155-147.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 16:41:47 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 16:42:07 --- nick: Guest6357457 -> Snoopy42 17:07:09 --- join: ygrek_ (i=user@gateway/tor/x-4d1aec1364fbc3cf) joined #forth 17:09:04 --- quit: jns (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 17:12:09 --- join: skas_wk (n=skas@121.127.198.32) joined #forth 17:19:49 --- join: jns (n=jens@p57B0781D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 17:25:10 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 17:51:06 --- join: edrx (i=edrx@201.5.13.123) joined #forth 17:53:46 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:08:22 --- quit: edrx ("rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.1.50.1") 18:27:15 --- join: jns_ (n=jens@p57B04DED.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 18:30:50 --- join: edrx (i=edrx@200.217.105.81) joined #forth 18:35:16 --- quit: jns (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 19:03:26 --- quit: ygrek_ (Remote closed the connection) 19:14:21 --- join: grfrblshntz (n=smee@71.86.201.201) joined #forth 19:46:08 --- join: bobber (n=kavacon@c-67-190-205-78.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:46:28 Hi gang 19:46:58 Is there a word that will clear all values off the stack? 19:58:55 i think standard systems use a word "reset" 19:59:24 er maybe not just checked in swiftforth, ha 19:59:37 what system are you using? 20:13:09 * skas_wk is away: Back soon 20:14:50 --- quit: rabbitwhite ("New look! Same great product.") 20:24:33 --- join: yumehito_ (n=yumehito@b-internet.87.103.254.70.snt.ru) joined #forth 20:25:57 --- quit: bobber () 20:33:52 bobber, some systems indeed use RESET. Also c as in clear. Or CLEAR or even CLEARSTACK. What else have I seen? Really, like rabbitwhite said, depends on the system. If you don't mind the error, one way prescibed in STARTING FORTH is to just type in a none word and try to execute it. That will throw an error and in most systems will also reset the stack. 20:34:42 use the period called dot to remove one item at a time, as well. 20:35:28 * RayS checking ans 20:36:20 --- quit: yumehito (Connection timed out) 20:40:55 * RayS didn't notice a word dedicated to clearing the stack in the standard core wordset. 20:41:10 So I suppose the execute-an-error- method may be the one. 20:41:46 Reset is from Retroforth, rabbitwhite would know that one. 20:42:43 I think I end up writing a clearstack for applications every now and again. 'c' is from colorforth... 20:42:43 * skas_wk is back (gone 00:29:33) 20:57:55 --- quit: grfrblshntz ("Bye") 21:18:55 --- quit: RayS (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:20:12 --- quit: Raystm2 ("I've embarrassed my self enough for one day.") 21:23:21 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-147-65.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 21:24:25 abort clears the stack 21:24:51 or ... : clear depth 0 ?do drop loop ; 21:26:43 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-147-65.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 21:32:33 --- join: jdrake (n=jdrake@fyodor.hcoop.net) joined #forth 21:33:15 Does anyone know of an easy way to get an 8051 compatible chip (which I have) to run forth and easily program it? At this current time, I have only the chip - no programmer - and will not spend too much money getting it to work. 21:34:00 i440r has an 8051 forth 21:35:28 How about a programmer setup that is cheap? 21:35:34 i don't know. 21:35:41 i don't expect an 8051 board to cost more than a hundred dollars 21:35:44 Any ideas about a forth for AVR chips? 21:35:44 probably much less 21:35:51 what's your budget? 21:36:59 Think of an asymptote of $0, that is my budget. 21:37:11 Or: As cheap as I can reasonably do it. 21:37:22 Like $50 or $100 at most. 21:37:23 i don't know of any company offering free hardware. 21:37:37 I have a MAX187 that was a free sample :p 21:38:37 Like the AVR Dragon is in an acceptable price range, but I would have to add stuff to it, to make it work reasonably. 21:39:13 what are you building? 21:40:19 I have a few projects I am planning. Right now I am planning an ohmmeter that is using a basic stamp (thus the reason why I want to 'upgrade'). My next ambitions are a microcontroller controlled elevator and a traffic system. 21:41:12 By default, I would be using C on an AVR chip. But I have liked the forth language in general since seeing it, but haven't managed to get around to actually doing anything with it. 21:41:22 how do you plan on building an elevator with a budget of less than $100? 21:41:26 is this for a high school science fair? 21:41:51 No, personal hobby. 21:42:06 The elevator would basically be cardboard and balsa wood :p 21:42:20 Note: I am well beyond highschool. 21:42:48 ok, then. the budget of $0 would seem to suggest otherwise. 21:43:02 I am a student mind you. 21:43:39 $100 would be acceptable for general use hardware for use with these projects, $200 would be tops. Each individual project would probably be no more than $30 of materials. 21:44:11 The hardware would be something I can use later on for other things, which is another part of this project set: building up a collection. 21:47:24 why the 8051? 21:49:39 I happen to have one. 21:49:50 oh 21:50:54 I am planning on getting an AVR setup going eventually though. 21:50:59 But I am in no real rush. 22:02:06 Night all. 22:02:15 Night. 22:10:50 --- nick: yumehito_ -> yumehito 22:12:06 --- part: edrx left #forth 22:22:59 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-139-249.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 22:26:52 --- part: skas_wk left #forth 22:38:48 --- join: skas_wk (n=skas@121.127.198.32) joined #forth 22:39:15 --- part: skas_wk left #forth 22:44:05 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 22:50:52 --- join: skas_wk (n=skas@121.127.198.32) joined #forth 22:56:55 wtf? my laptop doesn't have cvs 23:09:11 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:31:58 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-139-249.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 23:48:04 --- quit: skas_wk ("Leaving") 23:50:39 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:59:54 --- quit: slava () 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.06.17