00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.06.12 00:00:13 --- join: skas_wk (n=skas@121.127.198.32) joined #forth 00:01:52 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 00:06:57 --- quit: skas_wk ("Leaving") 00:39:43 --- nick: LeCamarade -> [LeCamarade] 00:43:13 --- join: nighty- (n=nighty-@66-163-28-100.ip.tor.radiant.net) joined #forth 00:47:23 --- join: nighty-- (n=nighty-@66-163-28-100.ip.tor.radiant.net) joined #forth 01:03:29 --- quit: nighty- (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:05:54 --- quit: nighty-- (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:20:29 --- join: Nostferka (n=tinwell@host81-159-171-0.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 02:22:38 --- part: Nostferka left #forth 03:52:03 --- quit: [LeCamarade] (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 03:57:12 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-34214c7fcc7d8593) joined #forth 04:07:41 --- join: yumehito_ (n=yumehito@b-internet.87.103.254.70.snt.ru) joined #forth 04:20:51 --- quit: yumehito (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:00:16 --- quit: adu ("Leaving") 06:06:51 --- join: edrx (n=Eduardo@201.5.12.239) joined #forth 06:07:21 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 06:15:42 --- join: yumehito (n=yumehito@b-internet.87.103.254.70.snt.ru) joined #forth 06:28:21 --- quit: yumehito_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:49:41 --- quit: edrx (Remote closed the connection) 07:13:14 --- join: edrx (i=edrx@201.5.12.239) joined #forth 07:17:16 --- part: RayS left #forth 07:17:29 --- quit: Raystm2 ("I've embarrassed my self enough for one day.") 07:28:14 --- part: edrx left #forth 07:31:48 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-151-105.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 07:33:05 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-151-105.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 07:36:28 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:22:25 --- join: segher__ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-161-117.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 08:30:38 --- quit: segher_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:55:56 --- join: tgunr (n=davec@70-41-240-7.cust.wildblue.net) joined #forth 09:06:59 --- join: nighty- (n=nighty-@66-163-28-100.ip.tor.radiant.net) joined #forth 09:28:20 --- join: rabbitwhite (n=Miranda@c-24-126-64-144.hsd1.md.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:48:48 --- quit: tgunr (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:50:40 --- join: tgunr (n=davec@70-41-240-7.cust.wildblue.net) joined #forth 09:52:55 --- quit: tgunr (Client Quit) 10:01:06 --- quit: Raystm2 ("I've embarrassed my self enough for one day.") 10:01:54 --- part: RayS left #forth 10:15:21 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@205.205.50.1) joined #forth 10:28:13 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 10:28:46 --- join: tgunr (n=davec@70-41-240-7.cust.wildblue.net) joined #forth 10:31:02 --- nick: crest_ -> Crest 10:31:18 --- join: alexshendi (n=alexshen@dslb-088-066-102-175.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 10:50:38 --- part: alexshendi left #forth 11:13:24 --- quit: tgunr (Remote closed the connection) 11:26:09 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@205.205.50.2) joined #forth 11:39:09 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-30-169.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 11:39:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 11:54:54 --- quit: crc (Remote closed the connection) 12:09:35 --- join: Guest6357457 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-103-195.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 12:15:02 --- join: neceve (n=Clau@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 12:18:26 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 12:18:34 --- nick: Guest6357457 -> Snoopy42 12:32:59 --- quit: ygrek () 12:41:41 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 12:41:42 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 13:03:08 --- quit: rabbitwhite ("New look! Same great product.") 13:23:56 hey slava 13:27:49 hey 13:30:47 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving") 13:54:41 --- join: alexshendi (n=alexshen@dslb-088-066-102-175.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 14:08:40 --- quit: slava () 14:10:04 --- quit: neceve ("Leaving") 14:33:54 --- join: crc (n=crc@pool-70-110-128-215.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 14:35:14 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 15:07:15 --- join: sorear (n=stefan@ip68-6-133-142.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 15:09:54 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p5489F8CB.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 15:15:48 --- quit: crc (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 15:17:45 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:23:31 --- join: crc (n=crc@pool-70-110-170-243.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 15:25:07 --- quit: crc (Remote closed the connection) 15:26:03 --- join: crc (n=crc@pdpc/supporter/active/crc) joined #forth 15:26:03 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 15:27:02 --- quit: crc (Remote closed the connection) 15:28:22 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:38:48 --- join: skas_wk (n=skas@121.127.198.32) joined #forth 15:54:10 --- join: crc (n=crc@pool-70-110-170-243.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 16:14:25 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-225-229.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 16:14:51 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-225-229.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 17:03:07 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@205.205.50.1) joined #forth 17:34:21 --- join: ttuttle (n=tom@pdpc/supporter/student/gentoo.contributor.ttuttle) joined #forth 17:35:43 ROBOTS! 17:41:16 and empire? 17:41:58 Just robots. Lots of them. Some very big. 17:43:00 somehow the excitement went out of robots; they're all industrial automata, now. 17:43:19 Quartus__: No these ones are awesome. 17:43:54 Quartus__: /me loves the iRobot homepage: "What kind of robot interests you? Cleaning robots, tactical robots, or robots for developers?" 17:44:17 none of those excite me 17:44:28 Quartus__: The tactical ones are fun to play with. 17:46:24 * ttuttle got to play with one of these http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=139 well, it had some extra stuff that's not on that one. It was really cool. 17:46:28 I'll be interested when they clear the basic hurdles, like sight and stair-climbing 17:46:44 Quartus__: Those can climb stairs. 17:46:51 Quartus__: And they have remote video. 17:47:02 Quartus__: (Those military ones are all teleoperated.) 17:47:29 Quartus__: Usually the answer to stair-climbing is to make it so big that the stairs aren't a problem ;-) 17:47:31 I'm not talkiing about radio-controlled waldos. 17:47:42 Quartus__: Yeah. Vision is hard. 17:48:08 Teleoperated? Bah. I'd like telePORTed robots. 17:48:29 Quartus__: They've basically avoided that, sticking to IR and bump sensors for obstacle avoidance on the consumer ones, and a human operator on the military ones. 17:48:37 --- part: skas_wk left #forth 17:48:55 Quartus__: Take a look at this http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=141. 17:48:57 Quartus__: It's awesome. 17:49:51 you and I have different standards for awe 17:50:16 Quartus__: I mean it's not quite as technologically amazing as a completely autonomous bot, but the potential it has is really great. 17:50:28 it's a remote-control car 17:50:37 Quartus: That one? No, it drives autonomously. 17:50:58 Quartus: The press release says "iRobot and John Deere Team to Produce Military Autonomous Unmanned Ground Vehicle". 17:51:23 no. It has 'teach and playback' navigation, following, and obstacle avoidance. 17:52:26 iRobot and John Deere Team to Produce Full-Size RC Jeep 17:53:07 The only way that thing could act as unmanned scout is via teleoperation. 17:53:32 I'm guessing it's hugely more expensive than a guy with a radio and a jeep, so it's unlikely to be sent in as a scout in any case. 17:53:47 Quartus: ...until the guy and the Jeep get blown up. 17:53:53 Quartus: That's the point. 17:54:07 You think the big green jeep with the rabbit-ears and no driver won't get blowed up? 17:54:31 Quartus: When it does, you're out the cost of a Jeep plus the robotic parts. If the one with the human got blown up, you'd be out the cost of a Jeep plus a human. 17:54:35 Quartus: Humans cost more than robots. 17:54:40 They certainly don't. 17:55:01 ttuttle: Here in civilian America, that's true. 17:55:26 If the military considered soldiers more precious than equipment, they wouldn't send them into dangerous situations. 17:55:26 ttuttle: Now factor in the 100x surcharge applied to everything sold to the military... :( 17:57:57 sorear: There's not quite as big a market for tactical robots as for cleaning robots. Unless you'd like to buy one? 18:00:25 step one; shoot out the antenna 18:00:28 then the camera 18:00:45 then box it in with four obstacles so it comes to a halt. 18:00:50 Free car. 18:01:07 Quartus: Hmm. 18:01:14 --- join: bobber (i=bobber@169-93.dynamic.visi.com) joined #forth 18:01:45 Quartus: That's why you retube the engine so that the passenger compartment is the exhaust manifold :) 18:01:52 it's a jeep. 18:02:03 sorear: Nah, you can't. It can be driven manually too. 18:02:41 it's an RC jeep with a big, obvious camera and two antennas sticking up in the middle. 18:03:07 Quartus: It's *not only RC*! 18:03:29 oh right. It can navigate to waypoints you've already driven it to. 18:03:33 Quartus: It can autonomously follow a path. Don't you think that's useful at all? 18:03:54 Tell me why it's useful. 18:04:19 Quartus: Because you can send it instead of a soldier to deliver supplies on a route that goes through dangerous areas. 18:04:21 It could bring you a beer (or your slippers) 18:04:25 bobber: Exactly! 18:04:34 ttuttle, that's absurd. A baseball bat would incapacitate this thing. 18:04:40 Quartus: No it wouldn't. 18:04:50 Are you looking at a different picture than I am? 18:05:35 Also, do you think the military drives supplies through dangerous areas? Did they run out of flying machines? 18:05:58 Quartus: Why would they own any Jeeps if helicopters work better? 18:06:17 It's not a question of whether jeeps and helicopters are both useful. 18:06:47 Quartus: If a jeep is useful, why wouldn't a jeep that can drive itself be more useful? 18:06:59 Quartus: It's all a question of how much the roboticization costs. 18:08:17 ttuttle, if a jeep is useful, why wouldn't a jeep that played showtunes while it waters the lawn be more useful? 18:08:39 Quartus: Because that doesn't save the military any resources. They weren't playing showtunes or watering the lawn themselves, but they were driving jeeps (and getting shot at). 18:08:52 Quartus: Okay, what about snipers? Can snipers take out a Jeep without a driver? 18:08:59 Sure. Landmine. 18:09:00 Yes. 18:09:15 Quartus: Er, snipers can't shoot landmines. They shoot bullets. 18:09:28 Oh, you're only allowing the enemy to have snipers? Missed that. 18:09:32 sorear: Really? (I guess the tires.) 18:09:41 Quartus: I'm just wondering what situations it would be effective in. 18:10:21 ttuttle: last time I checked, guns can penetrate tank armor. how well defended are the control circuits in these jeeps? 18:10:22 Quartus: I guess this is pointless unless we can agree that it's better for a robot to get blown up or killed than a human. If we can't agree on this, it's relatively pointless, because of course humans are smarter and more flexible. 18:10:28 Tires, the goofy antenna/camera setup; two good choices. Grenade in the cab. Or just put an obstacle in front of it; it'll veer. 18:10:33 sorear: I don't know, and if I did, I couldn't tell you. (NDA) 18:10:54 Quartus: It'll veer, and then get back on track. Obstacle avoidance, like you said. 18:11:25 sure. Might take the enemy a good half hour to figure out the easiest way to completely incapacitate it. 18:11:41 Fun, though, so at least there's that. 18:11:56 Quartus: Fun? 18:12:00 For them. 18:12:18 Quartus: I guess. 18:12:20 Like cow tipping, only with jeeps. 18:12:43 Quartus: lol 18:13:03 With the obstacle avoidance, you could redirect it onto the landmine, instead of waiting for it to drive over one. Handy. 18:13:16 Quartus: Why not just put the landmine right in front of it? 18:13:27 --- quit: bobber () 18:13:48 If it always follows the same preprogrammed route, which -- wait -- it has to! 18:14:28 Quartus: Hmm, I guess John Deere needs to build a land mine- and sniper-proof vehicle. 18:14:35 Quartus: I mean, iRobot's only doing the robotics. 18:14:47 Quartus: So you should be complaining to them ;-) 18:14:51 If you really think this thing is intended for use the way you suggest it is, which I sincerely doubt. It's a large toy. 18:15:27 Quartus: I really doubt they'd invest money in creating it unless someone from the military thought it would be useful. 18:16:23 The only difference between this and any jeep set up to be teleoperated -- and that's not new -- is that this one has waypoint following, which if you have teleoperation you don't particularly need. 18:16:51 Quartus: It's a resources thing. You can have it run automatically and free up troops for other things, like fighting or hiding out of the way. 18:17:07 Quartus: And trust me, the waypoint thing is useful, especially if it travels farther than wireless range. 18:17:49 Ok. It seems obvious to me that it's a large and undoubtedly expensive toy; if you're convinced it represents a military or robotics achivement of some kind, we're not on the same page. 18:31:42 --- quit: ttuttle ("leaving") 19:04:42 --- join: edrx (n=Eduardo@200.217.105.117) joined #forth 19:20:49 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection) 19:21:08 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 19:21:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 19:26:24 --- join: rabbitwhite (n=Miranda@c-24-126-64-144.hsd1.md.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:29:25 --- part: edrx left #forth 19:48:42 --- join: ttuttle (n=tom@pdpc/supporter/student/gentoo.contributor.ttuttle) joined #forth 19:48:51 Quartus: Do you know a good book on C++? 19:49:24 Quartus: For someone who knows how to program, and is somewhat familiar with C-like syntax, but doesn't know C++ itself yet? 19:49:48 knows how to program in what? 19:51:37 Quartus: Well, it's for me and my brother. I know a handful of things (C, Perl, Forth, Java, PHP); he seems to know Ruby and some Python. The point is he understands constructs like for loops and if statements, and only needs to be taught how C++ itself works, and perhaps some good OOP principles. 19:52:56 I'd suggest learning C first; if he finds that difficult, it'd be a good measure as to whether he's going to find the additional complexity of C++ difficult. 19:53:18 C is a simple language, with a few thousand idiosyncracies. C++ keeps most of them and adds more. 19:53:52 Quartus: I don't think he'll find it that difficult. 19:53:56 why do either of you want to go from where you are, into C++ ? 19:54:23 Quartus: Well, it's what his school uses for CS, and he wanted to gain some familiarity with it before starting in September. 19:54:35 any primer should do that 19:55:28 Quartus: But what's a good one that's not too "this is a variable, this is a for loop, ..." nor too heavy on reference material or theory? Something like K&R -- succinct, but still explanatory, and with exercises. 19:56:02 C++ and succinct are only going to go together in a book targetting someone familiar with both the underpinnings, and the concepts. 19:56:41 Quartus: Well, succinct as in not too blabby. Obviously there's more material to cover by 1000x. 19:56:54 So again I'd start with C, and then branch out into what C++ brings to the table. 19:57:23 Quartus: Okay. But book-wise, what's a good choice? I can use K&R to cover C. 19:58:01 Quartus: (And I'll see how much C stuff he already knows. He tried writing some stuff in it once, but it never went anywhere.) 19:58:25 Hard to say. I'd want to suggest something more current than the stuff in my library, I haven't surveyed the field for quite awhile. Have you asked in ##c++ ? 19:58:49 Quartus: That's a good idea. 19:58:53 what school is this? 19:59:01 high school? something else? 19:59:03 Quartus: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 19:59:15 so high school after high school. Ok. First year? 19:59:27 Quartus: Well, college, technically. 19:59:29 Quartus: Yeah. 19:59:41 Quartus: He's doing computer science and product design, 'cause he's interested in things like 3D modelling. 19:59:50 So they're hardly going to hit the ground running. Tell him to relax and take some time off instead. 20:00:24 Quartus: Well, it was my dad's idea. 20:01:01 So he's just out of his teens, and he has the summer ahead of him, and he wants to learn C++ so he'll be the brightest knife in the drawer at day on in C++ class at college? This is not good. 20:01:26 Mmm. 20:01:31 Not good at all. 20:02:05 Bright fellow? 20:02:21 Quartus: Yeah. Strange (like me, and most people around Freenode ;-) but pretty clever. 20:02:30 Then he'll find first year absurdly easy. 20:03:13 Probably. But he's probably sorta rusty, because he doesn't code that much. 20:03:33 So unless he's so jazzed about learning C++ that he's going to do it unaided with nothing but google and a Linux ISO and laugh with glee all the way through it -- he should really be taking the down time. My advice. 20:05:57 Quartus: I wouldn't mind learning it either, just as another tool to have. 20:06:12 You've got C, but no OO, is that right? 20:06:27 Quartus: I've got C, and OO, but not OO in C. 20:06:36 Quartus: (Unless you count structs with function pointers.) 20:06:47 hmm. I don't know. You have something you want to write? 20:07:06 Quartus: Well, there are some projects (Kismet) I'd like to hack on. 20:07:35 that's an existing project? Seems to me it'd be hard to learn a new language that way. 20:08:06 Quartus: Well, that's the thing. I want to learn C++ so I can work on things like that without stumbling. 20:08:18 Quartus: I'd rather learn it tutorial-style from a good (but not sluggish) book. 20:10:19 See what the ##c++ guys suggest in terms of recent stuff. I'm sure they know what to avoid, at any rate. 20:11:45 Or you could both get out of the house for the summer. :) 20:12:20 Quartus: Well, I'm at iRobot during the week. 20:12:37 all the more reason to do something else on your off hours 20:12:43 Quartus: As it is, I wish I could figure out some way to wring more hours out of the day so I could work on some stuff for my web host too. 20:13:57 Quartus: (My solution might be using wireless broadband on my laptop during the ridiculously long bus trip to Burlington.) 20:15:23 I seriously recommend becoming more than just a coder geek, if at all possible. You're really young, you've got the luxury of being able to try out all kinds of things, be as well-rounded as you can. 20:15:51 Meh. Coder geeks get paid. 20:17:42 Money can't buy your wasted life back. 20:17:59 No, but I'm having fun. 20:18:31 what else should we be? math geeks? :) 20:19:07 lol 20:20:42 *shrug* I can only tell you, I have had occasion to work with two many one-dimensional geeks, who over time are so narrowly concentrated on their specialty that any other human skills they may have had have withered away and fallen off; so consumed with and enamoured of their own eccentricies that their company is all but intolerable to others. 20:21:05 Don't worry, I'm not turning into one of those kinds of coder geeks. 20:22:05 You really shouldn't aspire to be the sad character with day-glo orange earplugs, bicycle gloves, and a Tilley Endurables hat who always smells like he needs a bath. Have a life. Start now. 20:22:54 --- part: RayS left #forth 20:22:55 Er, huh? 20:22:59 --- quit: Raystm2 ("Should have paid the bill.") 20:23:46 That's a snapshot of one such guy who I've recently had the displeasure of encountering. 20:24:17 The greater shame is that he isn't even a good coder. 20:24:46 / /_\// /_/ / / | | GHC Interactive, version 6.7.20070612, for Haskell 98. 20:24:50 ECHAN 20:26:03 he wore all of that stuff indoors, btw. 20:26:28 The earplugs caused him to shout, as well. 20:26:39 Quartus: I don't think being focused on coding creates that. I think it stems from a deeper weirdness. 20:27:43 A deeper weirdness creates the desire to spend a beautiful summer inside learning a programming language. 20:28:25 Quartus: Well, if it were up to him, he'd spend the summer doing 3D modelling. The C++ was my dad's idea. 20:28:30 who needs an entire summer to learn a programming language? 20:28:46 Listen, I don't think you're missing my point. I'm just saying, in your case you don't even have your brother's motivation; in his case, he really doesn't need to prep for first-year college CS unless he's appreciably dull-witted. 20:29:53 And both of you should get yourselves out and about and do something fun that involves other humans, in my personal and emphatic opinion. 20:32:46 --- quit: ttuttle ("leaving") 20:33:29 oh, no problem, anytime 20:38:04 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-225-229.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 20:58:47 --- quit: Raystm2 ("I've embarrassed my self enough for one day.") 21:50:31 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-225-229.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 21:51:26 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-225-229.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 21:58:31 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 21:58:31 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 22:12:23 --- part: alexshendi left #forth 22:58:50 --- quit: RayS (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:59:07 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-225-229.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 23:06:17 --- quit: sorear ("leaving") 23:15:55 --- quit: rabbitwhite ("New look! Same great product.") 23:21:17 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-1010369901026f33) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.06.12