00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.06.10 00:39:14 --- quit: sorear ("zzz") 00:42:47 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection) 00:43:05 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 00:43:05 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 01:11:58 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection) 01:12:17 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 01:12:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 01:30:30 --- part: edrx left #forth 01:38:27 --- join: jns_ (n=jens@p57B0572B.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 01:45:36 --- join: jns__ (n=jens@p57B0572B.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 01:45:46 --- nick: jns__ -> jns 01:55:47 --- quit: jns_ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 02:08:27 --- quit: jns ("Ex-Chat") 02:08:32 --- join: LeCamarade (n=revence@217.113.73.39) joined #forth 02:08:50 ." Hi." 02:14:34 Hi. OK 02:15:14 ? 02:15:50 dup ok 02:16:03 * LeCamarade is just learning Forth ... :o) 02:16:18 cool 02:16:27 : greet ." Hi, everybody" ; 02:16:31 greet 02:16:32 stack underflow. 02:16:35 Hi :) 02:16:44 :oO 02:16:51 LeCamarade: this is a great place for newbie questions 02:16:56 Yeah. Stack underflow. Okay ... 02:17:04 although there are not always people awake at this hour :) 02:17:12 RayS: you're up late :) 02:17:18 you duped the empty stack sorry. :) 02:17:26 Hi JasonWoof: missed man how ya been ? 02:17:36 JasonWoof: Yeah, I find this place too abandoned. Especially compared to my other channels ... ;o) 02:18:01 I went on a channel hunt the other day. 02:18:16 I like it, if it were much bussier it'd be too much for me 02:18:16 Pick up a few I'm checking out. 02:18:27 I already only pay attention to 1/3 of the traffic 02:18:29 Save me from one of these if you know better then me: 02:18:32 #windows 02:18:34 RayS: life is good! 02:18:36 #gentoo 02:18:49 doh! #cygwin not #gentoo. 02:19:08 Im not in any of them now 02:19:10 #darcs 02:19:13 #gentoo is pretty busy, I find my questions are usually not answered there 02:19:18 I see. 02:19:19 I've had much better luck with #gentoo-ppc 02:19:20 Thanks. 02:19:31 Well, I suppose you will. 02:19:55 Are you in Maine yet 02:19:56 ? 02:20:07 I know Josh is. 02:20:26 RayS: on the 25th, I went up to Maine for a work weekend at the camp I go to in the summer 02:21:01 Cool. Cool. did you have a good camp? 02:21:13 In about a month I'll probably go up to help tathi and family fix up their new house 02:21:27 RayS: yeah it was fun. 02:21:46 My family used to camp/vacation near abouts them points north. 02:21:54 Great Pond. 02:22:33 I believe it's in or northwest of Bangor. 02:22:43 Oakland if memory serves. 02:23:06 * RayS tryed to find it on a map but it was just out side the maps limits. 02:23:17 online map that is. 02:23:56 eh? 02:23:59 maps.google.com 02:24:16 I like the new wikimapia, have you tried it yet? 02:24:31 You can annotate the map all with the rest of the world. 02:27:04 --- quit: LeCamarade (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 02:28:07 yeah, it was neat. but too spammy for my taste 02:28:16 and the interface was sorta crappy for the way the data was 02:28:46 most of the data was small enough to fit in a tooltip, but you have to wait for the huge popup foll of ads to find out what something is 02:29:06 I wish they'd cool it and just ask for donations like wikipedia 02:30:35 okay I'm wrong, northwest of Augusta near Belgrade. Still searching... 02:33:24 Cool found Great Pond. Homing in on the old campsite, if it's still there. 02:37:24 man, it gets light out early nowadays 02:46:37 sure does. 02:47:08 Didn't I read that you've got some projects going just now? 02:51:39 I'm up now because I'm dl'n massive bits from kc5tja, while he sleeps, so as not to interupt his on time. Time share. 03:16:24 I've had lots of work lately 03:16:43 I've been fiddling with squeak with some of my spare time 03:16:58 nothing so productive or educational today though. 03:17:25 I wested my spare computer time with aimless surfing, and drooling over a hand-held computer 03:17:28 I'm messin around with crc's toka just now. 03:17:34 :) 03:17:39 what model? 04:17:35 --- join: LeCamarade (n=revence@217.113.73.39) joined #forth 04:28:14 ...phew, that was heavy. got berlekamp-massey working now though :-) 04:33:09 I'm failing to implement min without using if (only using and/or and the like). I don't want an answer, but is it supposed to be easy-peasy, or am I `over-engineering' if it gets a bit big? 04:38:21 : min 2dup 0< tuch 0= and >r and r> xor ; 04:38:26 tuck, even 04:39:21 Why do you want to do that? 04:39:38 quartus: that's a better question, yeah ;-) 04:40:17 It's in a tutorial. 04:40:18 approached from Forth, it's a losing battle at any rate; 0< or 0= may well have embedded conditionals, depending on the implementation 04:40:28 But why did you give me an answer? :o( 04:40:31 Xo( 04:41:31 It's a question in a tutorial, but I guess I am not ready for that yet (the chapter is on the xor/and/or things). 04:41:41 it's a strictly academic exercise without practical value; you'll do as well to figure out why a given implementation works as you will wasting your time puzzling one out 04:41:59 0< and 0= should be primitives :-) 04:42:35 even as primitives, you may run afoul of embedded conditionals. There's nothing wrong with that, but if you're on some mission to eliminate the branches, well. 04:42:39 Quartus: Maybe he was trying to see if I grok the and/or concept. I do, anyway, so it wasn't going to be too much value. :o) 04:42:47 he? 04:43:05 Or she. The one who wrote the tutorial. 04:43:27 Do you guys have a bot in here? 04:43:36 Maybe to evaluate expression and the like? 04:43:45 I'm unclear as to the point of the exercise, really. 04:43:49 No bots in here. 04:43:51 I sware I'm not a bot. :) 04:44:04 what's up men! 04:44:08 RayS is a bot. 04:44:10 :o) 04:44:39 Okay, maybe I'd build a bot in Forth, but ... wouldn't that hurt? 04:44:50 huh? 04:44:57 Sockets, stuff ... do them libs exist for Forth? 04:45:09 yes 04:45:31 Of course they should. I use gForth, by the way. 05:14:36 I can't seem to put AGAIN after an IF ... 05:15:10 why are you trying to? 05:16:21 : mul begin 2dup rot drop 1- 0= if again endif ; ( Supposed to repeat the second element on the stack a number of times indicated by the top element. ) 05:16:42 the correct structure is begin while repeat 05:17:20 I can't use begin again? As in, AGAIN is illegal after and IF? 05:18:02 It's not correct to say AGAIN is illegal after IF, but it won't work the way you're doing it. 05:18:08 LeCamarade - use UNTIL -- unstructured mixing of control structures is not ANS, and gforth actively looks to see if you do that and if so raises an error. 05:18:22 Oh, okay. 05:18:25 :o) 05:18:55 begin/while/repeat is the general structure; begin/again and begin/until are specializations of it 05:19:08 Oh. 05:19:37 I'm loving Forth, in a weird way that just feels wrong. ;o) 05:20:11 --- join: rabbitwhite (n=Miranda@c-24-126-64-144.hsd1.md.comcast.net) joined #forth 05:22:25 --- quit: rabbitwhite (Client Quit) 05:23:37 quartus: AGAIN and UNTIL are the basic building blocks, instead ;-) 05:24:07 you can build again and until from begin/while/repeat, not the other way 'round 05:25:46 : while postpone if but ; immediate : repeat postpone again postpone then ; immediate 05:25:55 sure you can :-) 05:26:21 you've just proved my point. 05:26:55 no i didn't, i used AGAIN in the definition of REPEAT 05:27:00 --- quit: LeCamarade ("/me deserves a meal, now") 05:27:21 and IF in WHILE. Now build AGAIN using only WHILE and REPEAT, and then build UNTIL using only WHILE and REPEAT. 05:27:37 that's what *you* said should be done 05:28:16 but sure -- : again postpone true postpone while postpone repeat ; immediate 05:28:25 not very efficient ;-) 05:29:07 and UNTIL is the same, with TRUE replaced by 0= 05:29:28 The efficiency is irrelevant to the point I'm making about which one is the abstraction of the other 05:29:56 there is no abstraction 05:30:31 begin/while/repeat is more versatile, sure -- and you can view the others as some specialisation of it. but that's not how forth works really 05:31:04 it is allowed by iso forth sure, but... 05:31:26 Does Forth have an ISO standard as well? 05:31:38 My point is very simple; I've explained it, you've understood it. 05:31:50 Yes, the ANS standard was accepted as an ISO standard 05:32:08 quartus: and you see my point i'm sure. problem solved ;-) 05:32:23 Ah. I accept it also as a FROB standard. You can go on calling it that, if you like. 05:32:31 eh? 05:33:57 an attempt at humour? or do you not understand the standardization processes? 05:34:31 maybe he doesn't understand the irrelevance of ansi standards in 90% of the world 05:35:47 segher - ISO rubber-stamps an ANSI standard and you refer to 'ISO Forth' -- *obviously* my lack of appreciation for this comes from a lack of understanding. 05:36:17 it's not just rubber stamped, duh 05:36:29 OK. How does ISO Forth differ from ANSI Forth? 05:36:52 it's an international standard? 05:37:27 So, it doesn't differ at all? This must be a very slow, wasteful, pointless form of rubber-stamping that you hold above the normal kind. 05:37:47 no sense talking to you i guess 05:43:01 ok, so you don't understand the standardization processes. 05:43:38 quartus: you're not telling me i hope ;-) 05:44:00 The absurdity of believing that the ISO standard would have to be *different* from the ANS standard is entertaining. 05:44:08 :-) 05:44:15 Quartus - that is, of course, not my belief. 05:44:52 quartus: ansi c and iso c _are_ different btw -- iso c has a few typos fixed :-) 05:45:06 Your 'lack of appreciation' stems from the fact that the ISO standard is identical with the ANS one. So you clearly feel it should differ. 05:45:37 Perhaps you can clarify with another delightful FROB bon mot. 05:45:55 If you ask me, and you don't... Personally, though I use tons of forth that disreguard standards, the standards play an important role. 05:46:20 Quartus - again: no. You are too consistent nowadays in believing whatever inane thing happens to allow you to find me disagreeable -- even if, as in previous instances of this, this requires that you forget history between us. 05:46:52 help me out here, segher. Am I putting a peculiar spin on what ayrnieu said? 05:48:25 not at all 05:48:56 Thanks. 05:48:57 perhaps his core misunderstanding is he seems to think the standard is developed by ansi 05:49:12 Maybe so. 05:49:15 segher - the *language* *was*. 05:49:40 okay, so that is it 05:49:48 another problem solved! 05:49:56 productive sunday, this 05:50:02 well, problem identified, at least 05:50:25 segher - ANS Forth, the language, was created as part of the ANSI standardization process, and then defined as a result of that process. That you refer to 'iso forth' and talk about the irrelevancy of ANSI -- this only strikes me as boring antiamericanism. 05:50:39 pfffrt 05:51:09 Good grief. 05:52:29 i never said ansi was irrelevant. i said ansi standards are irrelevant in 90% of the world -- not being a standard there helps you know 05:54:34 Why does it offend you that I refer to the ISO process as 'rubber stamping', then? Would 'blessing' still bother you? 05:55:53 it is exactly the same process as the ansi process -- working group submits a proposal, standards organisation either or not accepts it and ratifies it as a standard 05:56:30 and it's the same bloody working group, too 05:57:37 Do you understand why I think of the language as 'ANS Forth' rather than 'ISO Forth', seeing as the ANSI process created the language? 05:58:37 i can understand you believe in many false statements 05:59:10 Meaning that you say 'the ANSI process created the language' is a false assertion? 06:01:15 yes 06:01:27 two false assertions, even 06:01:50 1) the language already existed; 2) the working group created a standardised version of it 06:02:15 #2 is just a more precise form of what I said; #1 is false. 06:03:36 Unless you mean 'already' as 'after the working group created it'. Or do you not see ANS Forth a distinct language from FIG Forth, Forth 79, &c? 06:03:51 you're silly 06:04:04 wait, i'll stop this: hitler. 06:05:16 OK. I'll remind you of this the next time you blather on about how terribly I -fail to understand- something. 06:07:18 Inane pedantry aside, the '94 Forth Standard is both ISO and ANS; this is not a matter of personal opinion, but simple fact. 06:07:50 of what? how this was a brilliant instance thereof? 06:09:02 --- nick: segher__ -> segher 06:09:24 I replied to segher's invocation of Hitler; lag might've disordered events for you (or me). 06:09:48 i invoked godwin's law. you're supposed to stop blabbering now. 06:10:49 segher - no, you didn't invoke that. It'll take some pedantry to see why. 06:11:14 Spare us. 06:12:43 I don't believe that you actually anticipated that I would follow that up with an explanation, Quartus. 06:14:00 That's exactly what I anticipated. 07:12:56 --- quit: Raystm2 ("Should have paid the bill.") 07:14:04 --- quit: RayS (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:21:40 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-138-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 07:23:17 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-138-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 07:51:35 --- nick: yumehito_ -> yumehito 08:31:18 --- join: Nostferka (n=tinwell@unaffiliated/nostferka) joined #forth 08:52:37 --- quit: Nostferka (Connection timed out) 09:25:43 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 09:26:02 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 09:26:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 10:25:08 --- quit: cmeme (Remote closed the connection) 10:25:53 --- join: cmeme (n=cmeme@boa.b9.com) joined #forth 10:52:43 --- quit: Raystm2 ("I've embarrassed my self enough for one day.") 10:53:48 --- part: RayS left #forth 11:14:02 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-138-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 11:15:03 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-138-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 11:21:32 --- join: sorear (n=stefan@ip68-6-133-142.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 11:26:37 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-133-169.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 12:48:06 --- join: Nostferka (n=tinwell@unaffiliated/nostferka) joined #forth 12:53:57 --- quit: Nostferka () 13:15:05 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 14:29:59 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 14:29:59 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 14:44:54 --- quit: timlarson ("Leaving") 14:45:59 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 14:45:59 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 14:52:43 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 15:09:40 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p5489EE65.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 15:11:08 --- quit: Crest (Nick collision from services.) 15:11:10 --- nick: crest_ -> Crest 15:12:53 --- quit: Raystm2 ("I've embarrassed my self enough for one day.") 15:13:30 --- part: RayS left #forth 15:21:28 --- join: bobber (i=bobber@171-222.dynamic.visi.com) joined #forth 15:25:20 Say I have a variable named "test" and it has been initialized with 100 test ! What is the difference btween viewing the value with test @ . and ' test @ . ? 15:25:55 In otherwords, I don't see what the function of the ' (tic) is for 15:26:10 try ticking a word which is not a variable 15:26:44 besides, the XT need not be the same as the parameter field address 15:26:54 that's true, but in many forths it is 15:26:57 iirc 15:26:59 XT ?? 15:27:14 bobber: ' pushes a word's xt (execution token) 15:27:15 execution token. what ' returns 15:27:27 bobber: try 2 2 ' + execute . 15:27:40 most forths (including ans) have execute 15:27:44 sometimes its >r instead 15:28:01 but you need to do : execute >r ; 15:28:50 slava: how does that work in a threaded-code forth? 15:29:05 it only works in STC 15:29:07 i think 15:29:14 ah! makes sense. 15:29:50 Wish it did to me..... :-/ 15:31:04 I'll try your suggestions and get back.....thanks! 15:31:15 ignore the discussion about >r 15:31:30 learn about ' execute and the concept of an xt 15:31:42 this stuff ties in with create/does> too 15:32:02 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 15:32:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +b *!*virl@*.vie.surfer.at 15:32:02 --- part: virl left #forth 15:32:07 lol 15:33:00 --- mode: tathi set -b *!*virl@*.vie.surfer.at 15:33:19 --- quit: bobber () 15:42:33 hrm...I don't seem to have any mental energy left over after work to do any programming these days :( 15:43:11 --- quit: tathi ("Lost terminal") 15:43:26 --- join: mightybob (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 15:43:26 --- mode: ChanServ set +b *!*virl@*.vie.surfer.at 15:43:26 --- part: mightybob left #forth 15:43:58 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 15:43:58 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 15:44:17 oops 15:47:08 --- join: mightybob (n=buddy@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 15:47:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +b *!*@62.178.85.149 15:47:08 --- part: mightybob left #forth 15:56:30 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-138-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 16:05:34 --- join: edrx (i=edrx@201.5.13.21) joined #forth 17:21:50 --- quit: sorear ("leaving") 17:22:00 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection) 17:22:15 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 17:22:16 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 17:23:10 --- join: sorear (n=stefan@ip68-6-133-142.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 17:35:37 --- quit: sorear ("Lost terminal") 17:40:41 --- join: sorear (n=stefan@ip68-6-133-142.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 17:48:01 --- join: yumehito_ (n=yumehito@b-internet.87.103.254.70.snt.ru) joined #forth 17:51:21 --- quit: yumehito (Nick collision from services.) 17:51:27 --- nick: yumehito_ -> yumehito 18:02:33 --- nick: sorear -> sorear_ 18:05:49 --- quit: sorear_ ("leaving") 18:05:53 --- join: sorear (n=stefan@ip68-6-133-142.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 18:06:09 --- quit: sorear (Client Quit) 18:06:12 --- join: sorear (n=stefan@ip68-6-133-142.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 18:07:03 --- quit: yumehito ("no cat anywhere ever gave anyone a straight answer") 18:07:07 --- quit: sorear (Client Quit) 18:07:11 --- join: sorear (n=stefan@ip68-6-133-142.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 18:18:09 --- join: tgunr (n=davec@70-41-240-7.cust.wildblue.net) joined #forth 18:34:57 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 18:56:23 --- join: rabbitwhite (n=Miranda@c-24-126-64-144.hsd1.md.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:58:00 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection) 18:58:17 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 18:58:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 19:12:31 does anyone know of a good, free, simple, command-line utility for writing raw disk images to external flash drives and the like? 19:12:58 dd 19:13:12 man dd 19:13:21 cat should work too 19:15:59 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection) 19:16:15 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 19:16:15 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 19:21:33 are those linux 19:23:12 Any *nix 19:24:26 cat image > /dev/sda # The name varies from system to system, and as likely as not sda is your hard drive. You *will* regret it if you don't bother to check which is which first 19:24:37 --- quit: tgunr (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:40:07 --- join: i-- (n=sadjlask@201.80.232.117) joined #forth 19:40:59 k i'm a windows guy 19:42:49 you might try RAWRITE .. not sure if it supports flashdrives though 19:43:06 I used it to prepare my Linux installation floppies 4 years ago 19:44:54 its ok i found dd 19:44:59 its supported in windows gonna try it out 20:01:32 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-184-031.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 20:03:50 --- join: yumehito (n=yumehito@b-internet.87.103.254.70.snt.ru) joined #forth 20:12:10 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:20:49 --- join: tgunr (n=davec@70-41-240-7.cust.wildblue.net) joined #forth 20:26:07 --- join: tgunr_ (n=davec@70-41-240-7.cust.wildblue.net) joined #forth 20:26:08 --- quit: tgunr (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:35:01 --- quit: sorear ("leaving") 20:35:10 --- part: RayS left #forth 20:56:07 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-138-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 20:56:17 --- quit: RayS (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:57:29 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-138-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 20:57:34 --- quit: RayS (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:00:08 --- quit: i-- () 21:01:19 --- quit: rabbitwhite ("New look! Same great product.") 21:05:49 --- join: adu (n=me@pool-72-66-83-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 21:50:59 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-138-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 21:52:11 --- join: sorear (n=stefan@ip68-6-133-142.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 22:06:57 --- join: _crc (n=crc@pool-70-110-128-215.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 22:06:57 --- quit: crc (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:11:18 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-138-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 23:01:31 --- quit: sorear ("zzz!") 23:20:56 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection) 23:21:12 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 23:21:12 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 23:55:43 --- quit: edrx (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.06.10