00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.06.08 00:06:17 I thought I'd discuss it. Show where to find some of the most important versions and where to find information to get a good picture of it all. 00:07:15 Maybe execute a few little progys and discuss the constraints that direct coding techniques in a particular direction. 00:07:53 Give people a real chance to see if it is worth there time to even explore. 00:20:04 --- join: crest__ (n=crest@p5489DFFA.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 00:20:44 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:28:45 :) waiting for it! :) 00:29:15 --- quit: crest_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:35:35 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p5489C015.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 00:44:04 --- quit: crest__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:47:18 --- join: crest__ (n=crest@p5489f51d.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 00:55:39 --- quit: crest_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:01:16 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p5489E071.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 01:02:31 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p5489bff8.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 01:02:35 I figure I got about another 40 or so hours on the project i'm currently on, and then I can start planing that one. 01:09:25 --- quit: crest__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:09:50 --- join: crest__ (n=crest@p5489F95E.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 01:16:54 i wish you a nice and fruitful work! :) 01:18:49 --- quit: crest_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:24:16 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p5489D7EC.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 01:27:06 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:33:48 --- quit: crest__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:37:38 --- quit: gnomon_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:55:29 --- quit: ayrnieu (Connection timed out) 02:55:32 --- part: RayS left #forth 02:56:54 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-134-99.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 03:07:23 --- part: RayS left #forth 03:07:23 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-134-99.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 03:17:23 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 03:30:47 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-e8f8e40e9c93742b) joined #forth 03:30:58 i have to go now! have a nice day! :) 03:31:21 --- part: humptydumpty2 left #forth 04:20:40 --- join: gnomon (n=gnomon@CPE0050eb372bdb-CM001692f57b56.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 04:45:08 --- quit: ygrek () 04:56:23 --- quit: tgunr () 05:23:53 --- join: linenoise_ (n=linenois@207.6.94.174) joined #forth 05:35:17 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-a72b4e8561f0599b) joined #forth 05:38:52 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 05:41:07 --- nick: linenoise_ -> Line_Noise 05:44:44 --- quit: Line_Noise () 06:22:45 --- nick: crest_ -> Crest 06:29:32 --- join: madwork (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 06:31:59 --- join: jns (n=jens@p57b07d56.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 06:46:39 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 06:47:34 --- quit: cmeme ("Client terminated by server") 06:48:19 --- join: cmeme (n=cmeme@boa.b9.com) joined #forth 06:48:57 --- quit: mem4tim (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 06:48:57 --- quit: timlarson_ (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 06:49:09 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 06:49:09 --- join: mem4tim (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 06:49:33 --- part: RayS left #forth 06:57:32 --- join: rabbitwhite (n=Miranda@c-24-126-64-144.hsd1.md.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:14:09 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@65.125.86.66) joined #forth 07:15:35 hello 07:15:49 Howdy. 07:16:32 ****** these cock roaches 07:16:41 keep climbing into my coffee 07:16:54 They need their morning fix, too. 07:17:52 have you tried crc's Toka 07:18:35 Nope. 07:21:37 it keeps the bugs away :) 07:26:17 Ok, having all of the web pages show up in a fixed-height frame drives me bonkers. 07:26:27 (the Toka stuff) 07:35:46 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:36:56 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-134-99.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 07:45:29 crc: I try to read the lessons in firefox, click on the next page link, get a 404, click back, click the link again and it shows up 08:29:26 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:40:04 --- join: yumehito_ (n=yumehito@b-internet.87.103.254.70.snt.ru) joined #forth 08:51:27 --- quit: yumehito (Success) 08:59:09 --- quit: jns (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 09:09:25 --- join: grfrblshntz (n=smee@71.86.201.201) joined #forth 09:10:15 --- quit: grfrblshntz (Client Quit) 09:12:53 --- part: snowrichard left #forth 09:30:07 --- join: edrx (n=Eduardo@fosforo.k8.com.br) joined #forth 09:49:05 --- quit: rabbitwhite ("New look! Same great product.") 09:50:16 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 10:44:20 --- quit: Baughn_ ("Reconnecting") 10:44:30 --- join: Baughn (n=svein@195134062103.customer.alfanett.no) joined #forth 11:16:06 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:10:54 --- quit: ygrek () 12:12:12 --- nick: yumehito_ -> yumehito 12:37:51 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-30-169.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:37:51 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 13:28:19 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving") 13:34:00 --- join: timlarson__ (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 13:44:14 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 13:50:23 --- quit: timlarson (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:50:38 --- quit: mem4tim (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:15:58 --- quit: gnomon (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:31:52 --- join: gnomon (n=gnomon@CPE0050eb372bdb-CM001692f57b56.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 14:34:27 --- part: edrx left #forth 14:52:39 --- quit: Raystm2 ("Should have paid the bill.") 14:55:33 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-134-99.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 14:58:21 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 14:58:21 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 15:07:29 --- join: sorear (n=stefan@ip68-6-133-142.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 15:08:12 hi tathi 15:08:18 hi all 15:08:32 hi Quartus__, slava 15:09:23 hello 15:10:05 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p5489D438.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 15:10:22 hi 15:10:44 how goes the book quartus? 15:11:42 is this legal --> here :noname ; drop here swap - allot 15:11:43 ? 15:12:02 looks ok to me 15:12:12 why would you do that? 15:13:23 I um ... forgot :) 15:13:33 I had a reason when I asked yesterday. 15:13:56 yeah, looks pretty weird to me too 15:14:40 ANS says that you can't back dp over definitions, but isn't clear on whether :noname is a definition. 15:14:48 it is 15:14:52 that code isn't backing up, by the way 15:15:15 no, it allocates the amount that the :noname consumed, again 15:15:20 yeah 15:15:31 * sorear can never keep his swaps straight 15:16:04 there's nothing that warrants that codespace and dataspace are the same 15:16:30 yes, and on x86 it is a very bad idea to make them the same 15:18:01 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:19:26 And even if they are the same, backing up over a definition isn't necessarily "illegal": the forth system may let you get away with it. 15:19:47 doesn't sound like a useful or even a well-defined operation though 15:19:50 It's just ambiguous: you can't rely on getting the same behavior from one Forth to another. 15:20:03 Ya. Just splitting hairs here. :) 15:20:09 yeah. what if :noname doesn't change 'here' at all? 15:20:28 slava: 0 allot is a noop :) 15:23:26 the technique you're outlining has no defined behaviour, and would break a number of implementations. 15:25:21 the book goes slowly but surely, slava 15:34:28 how goes the thesis? 15:43:01 sorear, the standard provides MARKER for reliably winding back the dictionary 15:53:58 The Standard also makes it quite clear that :noname definitions are definitions 16:55:45 --- nick: segher_ -> segher 16:57:08 --- join: ttuttle (n=tom@pdpc/supporter/student/gentoo.contributor.ttuttle) joined #forth 16:57:18 Quartus: /me just graduated high school today ;-) 16:58:07 hurray! 16:58:15 good for you, ttuttle 16:58:19 * sorear graduates in 1 year 12 days 16:58:22 Quartus: Thanks. 17:07:41 --- join: RayS (n=Ray_stma@adsl-68-95-134-99.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 17:17:58 What's next? 17:19:00 --- quit: Quartus () 17:20:36 Quartus__: The standard name for the Forth inner interpreter code, responsible for incrementing the virtualized instruction pointer and dispatching to the code for implementing the next primitive. In a C tail-call implementation, this is (*ip++)(); 17:21:03 Look up 17:21:08 "threaded code" 17:21:12 heh 17:21:19 i'm pretty sure Quartus__ knows this 17:21:36 * sorear thought so too 17:21:41 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-182-109.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 17:21:48 but hey, I learned division in 9th grade 17:21:58 quartus is a forth implementor 17:22:08 oh. 17:22:24 * sorear begins to suspect he misinterpreter "what is next?" 17:22:31 misinterpreted 17:22:42 I'm assuming that was aimed at ttuttle 17:23:20 Quartus__: Me? Carnegie Mellon School of Computer Science. 17:23:31 a lot of people are unhappy with CS education 17:24:22 slava: Eh. What am I gonna do? Everyone wants a college degree. 17:24:32 sorear: NEXT is the inner interpreter ;-) 17:24:35 slava: I mean, if I could just find an experienced hacker and "apprentice" with them, it'd be great. 17:24:37 you could get a degree in math or science, perhaps 17:24:48 slava: Yeah, but I want to learn a lot of the things they teach specifically in CS. 17:25:03 they don't teach enough theory, and not enough application. 17:25:13 slava: It's a balance ;-) 17:25:23 so you won't learn enough java frameworks and tools to become a code monkey, and not enough theory to write more complex stuff. 17:25:39 slava: But they give you a solid enough foundation that you can easily go either way yourself. 17:25:58 you also have to realize that most professors have very little experience when it comes to developing real software. 17:25:58 SEGHER_: I DO NOT BELIEVE IN CASE SMASHING, I HAVE READ AND BELIEVED RESEARCH THAT SAYS IT HARMS READABILITY. :) 17:26:16 slava: And you learn the "states of mind" necessary to both comprehend data structures, algorithms, etc... and understand new API's easily. 17:26:38 sorear: you have to spell std forth words in uppercase or your program isn't conformant 17:26:39 do the professors understand new APIs easily? no, they don't write code 17:26:53 segher: actually it is conforming but how has an environmental dependency 17:27:13 sure 17:27:17 same thing 17:27:17 slava: I would hope the ones who teach applications do. 17:27:24 segher_: I don't publish the tr output 17:28:24 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 17:28:24 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 17:29:09 Quartus: Hey again. 17:29:18 hey. So what's next? 17:29:26 Quartus: Carnegie Mellon School of Computer Science. 17:29:45 To become a computer scientist? 17:30:05 Quartus: To learn more. 17:30:37 Quartus: I don't know exactly where I'll go from there. 17:31:34 Quartus: But it will certainly be fun. 17:32:16 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:32:50 Quartus: Hehe. I'm glad my interpretation of your statement was wrong :) 17:32:59 huh? 17:33:06 17:17 <@Quartus> What's next? 17:33:06 17:18 -!- Quartus [n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 17:33:10 17:20 < sorear> Quartus__: The standard name for the Forth inner interpreter code, responsible for incrementing the virtualized instruction pointer and dispatching to the code for implementing the next primitive. In a C tail-call implementation, this is (*ip++)(); 17:33:22 sorear: irssi ftw? 17:33:47 ttuttle: I use irssi yes. (ooc - why?) 17:33:53 There are plenty of implementations that have no inner interpreter. 17:34:20 sorear: I do to. It's awesome. 17:34:22 Quartus: lol 17:34:32 what's funny? 17:34:56 Quartus: Certainly. I'm working on a register allocating instruction selecting native code forth myself. 17:35:11 Quartus: the way you answered his mistaken answer. 17:35:20 but i'd say 98% of forth implementations use some variety of threaded code 17:35:29 i'd say 96.5%. 17:36:00 Quartus: Isn't it true that "microcode"-ish code (like threaded code) is often faster when there's not a lot of cache, because, despite the slower execution, it has to pull less code from RAM? 17:36:06 You're big on authoritative announcements, but native-code represents far more than 2% of available implementations 17:36:34 ttuttle, as a sweeping generalization, it's bound to be false. 17:36:45 Quartus: Well, of course. 17:37:12 ttuttle: On the 65816, which has very little cache, STC is faster than DTC 17:37:28 Quartus: The context I remember it in is when Symbolics was creating an emulator to run their old Lisp system on newer hardware. They implemented it as an emulator, and it was faster than some native implementations. 17:37:47 that's because newer hardware is several orders of magnitude faster than the lisp machine's cpu 17:37:51 Native-code generation involves optimization and inlining, not just subroutine-threading. It's by far the fastest implementation method. 17:37:56 in fact, the 65816 has 0 bytes of icache - minimizing the instruction count is a good thing. 17:38:08 if *all* you're doing is STC, then DTC might beat it 17:38:12 slava: No, it was faster than the native-code versions running on modern-ish hardware. 17:38:30 Quartus: Yeah, they probably didn't have very good optimization in the competing Lisps, maybe. 17:38:48 Quartus: So, "i'd say" is an authoritative announcement? 17:39:07 * sorear does not get communication skills normally, and needs them stated explicitly 17:39:12 ttuttle: the symbolics cpu is stack-based, FWIW 17:39:15 Sorear knows all. 17:39:21 I do?! 17:39:36 sorear: What is the meaning of life/ 17:39:58 I know an answer to everything, most of which are false. 17:40:00 ttuttle: 42 17:40:04 sorear: Oh, of course. 17:40:32 that's actually wrong too. 42 is the answer, not the meaning. 17:40:55 * ttuttle rolls his eyes. 17:41:10 Perhaps you haven't read the books. 17:41:20 Me? I have read some. 17:41:40 Quartus: I've read all five. See above on faulty memory ;) 17:41:46 I know it was "the answer to life, the universe, and everything" ;-b 17:42:04 42 is the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything. The joke is that it took a tremendous amount of time to get the answer, but that the question is still unspecified. 17:42:27 * sorear would still like to know what he did sufficiently wrong to warrant Quartus' "You're big on authoritative announcements". 17:42:39 * sorear is not asserting Quartus was in the wrong to make it. 17:43:01 your authoritative announcements could have played a part in it. 17:43:10 * ttuttle just saw the MasterCard ad where the elephant uses their RFID-enabled cards to buy stuff for the actual cardholder. lol, it's so easy to steal someone's card now! 17:43:12 dude, it's how you come across. You have a quick and commonly wrong answer to just about everything. Now that I've found out you're, what, 17, that accounts for most of it. 17:43:19 26 17:43:21 16 17:43:32 you're 16? 17:43:35 yes 17:43:54 that puts everything in perspective, then. 17:44:03 * ttuttle wants to invent CTCP AGE. 17:44:11 * sorear shudders 17:44:22 lol 17:44:23 * sorear wishes slava had commented sooner about this problem 17:44:25 Optional, of course. 17:44:51 --- join: DocPlatypus (i=skquinn@gateway/tor/x-fde768bb37b38a0b) joined #forth 17:44:57 * ttuttle is 19, just to clear things up. 17:45:24 For additional perspective, my cat is 23. 17:45:29 Okay. 17:45:33 Quartus: In cat, dog, or human years? 17:45:36 Human. 17:45:41 Quartus: Okay. (That's old!) 17:46:14 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Client Quit) 17:47:21 --- join: DocPlatypus (i=skquinn@xevious.platypuslabs.org) joined #forth 17:57:54 --- quit: sorear ("leaving") 18:03:44 --- join: sorear (n=stefan@ip68-6-133-142.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 18:07:25 Quartus: /me is excited about CMU. 18:07:25 does CMU do anything cool anymore? 18:07:25 they killed off CMUCL and Garnet 18:07:25 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 18:07:47 slava: I think they were the winning team in the darpa-grand-challenge (although that isn't objectively cool) 18:08:07 well, that is cool, but i mean in terms of concrete projects which come out of the university 18:08:13 also AFS came from CMU too, right? 18:12:10 --- quit: ttuttle ("leaving") 18:17:41 --- nick: sorear -> sorearhuman 18:17:50 --- nick: sorearhuman -> sorear 18:31:27 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 18:36:24 --- join: ayrnieu (n=julian@203M40.oasis.mediatti.net) joined #forth 19:00:26 --- quit: sorear ("hack!") 19:18:21 --- join: bobber (i=bobber@168-97.dynamic.visi.com) joined #forth 19:18:21 --- join: mem4tim (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 19:27:47 --- quit: bobber () 19:41:49 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@65.125.86.66) joined #forth 19:42:20 hi 19:43:42 yeah I remember CMU as being one of the schools not that clued about free software 19:44:01 there are a few others notably unclued as well 19:44:32 what exactly is a 'clued' school? 19:45:08 one where RMS holds a honorary doctorate 19:45:24 :) 19:45:50 MIT and Berkeley for starters 19:46:07 no, not which schools do you consider 'clued', but what do you mean by it? 19:46:27 as in, schools that normally release software under a free software license 19:46:38 as opposed to "free for non-commercial/academic use" or other such bullshit 19:46:44 (deftype clued (x) (satisfies (memq x '(MIT Berkley)))) 19:47:00 DocPlatypus: schools don't normally release software, period 19:47:28 So, and I speak from ignorance -- a) schools are software companies? and b) if you write software as an student in one of these 'clued' schools, you're constrained as to what license to use? 19:47:35 slava: there are schools that actively stand in the way of students releasing their projects as free software 19:47:46 Quartus: see above 19:47:54 Saw above. See below. 19:47:57 schools have no juristriction over software the student develops in their own time 19:48:19 if you want to release software developed as part of graduate studies, then yes, there are procedures that must be followed 19:48:21 talking here about software a student writes for their Ph.D thesis or similar 19:48:45 oh, Harvard is one of the clued ones as well I think 19:52:12 --- part: snowrichard left #forth 19:53:28 I vaguely remember a time when people chose schools based on where they thought they'd get the best education 19:54:19 ... okay, and? 19:54:30 at my school, any student who commercializes a technology they developed during their graduate studies must enter into a profit-sharing agreement with the university 19:54:46 that's understandable 19:54:47 since i'm studying a branch of math with little to zero commercial potential, this doesn't bother me 19:54:47 Capitalist bastards! 19:55:22 actually it depends on how they define "commercialize" 19:55:35 you just contradicted yourself... 19:55:38 if they refer to releasing as commerical proprietary software 19:55:40 DocPlatypus: as opposed to "free for non-commercial/academic use" or other such bullshit 19:55:46 DocPlatypus: that's understandable 19:55:48 *that's* understandable 19:56:07 imagine, someone daring to commercialize software 19:56:36 Quartus: those war-mongering republicans! how dare they! 19:56:45 the issue I have, is with making software proprietary or non-free 19:56:59 if someone makes a million dollars a year supporting, say, GNU Emacs, more power to him 19:57:20 but if they make a million dollars a year selling a text editor that competes with GNU emacs, they're a dirty capitalist pig? 19:57:37 but the people who write the software, how do they dare to have the audacity to want remuneration! it's horrible! think of the children! 19:57:49 slava: selling proprietary/non-free software, yes. selling copies of free software, no 19:57:59 the issue I have is about freedom, not making money 19:58:09 Quartus: you can make money writing free software 19:58:19 it's called "support contracts" 19:58:21 * slava has been involved in a number of proprietary software projects 19:58:27 i guess i'm contributing to the downfall of society as we know it 19:58:41 You can make money by writing and selling proprietary software, too. 19:58:43 the advantage of free software is that you're not bound to, say, Microsoft if it won't do what you want. 19:58:58 Quartus: so let me get this stragith 19:59:00 you are free (there's that word again) to hire the programmer you want. 19:59:07 Quartus: by chosing to sell quartusforth, you're being bound to Microsoft? 19:59:16 oh yes. At the wrists and ankles. 19:59:25 I don't do it for the money, just to anger the hippies, really. It's a sport. 19:59:48 i like it how some people equate non-OSS software with Microsoft 19:59:57 And with some kind of evil, in general. 19:59:58 slava: I was using Microsoft as an example 20:00:29 well, Microsoft, Nazis, whatever works 20:00:37 substitute Apple, Adobe, Real Networks, Intuit, or your favorite proprietary software vendor if you prefer 20:00:49 * slava is typing this on a mac 20:00:51 All of whom are horrible bastards who dare to sell software 20:00:53 the horror, the horror 20:01:07 DocPlatypus: do you think hardware should be free too? 20:01:12 Also food? 20:01:19 yes, those pesky farmers 20:01:27 fuckers *charge for food*. 20:01:35 Makes me angry just to type it. 20:01:41 slava: hardware is a completely different animal, but one should always be free to buy hardware without being forced to buy copies of unwanted proprietary software 20:01:55 again 20:01:56 or unwanted free software 20:02:28 okay, for that matter, or unwanted free software 20:03:01 i went to buy a RAM stick once, and they held a gun to my head and forced to buy a copy of TurboTax 20:04:40 I know, a gang of Krishnas forced me at flower-point to buy a spindle of CD-RWs with the Bhagavad-gita already burned on them. 20:04:49 what I'm referring to, is the freedom to buy, say, an iMac without being forced to buy MacOS 20:05:08 this is the one thing I *really* hate about Apple's business practices 20:05:26 there's little point buying a mac unless you plan on running os x. especially now that they moved to x86 20:05:32 indeed 20:05:38 last time i got an x86 machine with pre-loaded software was in 1997 20:05:40 when i got a box win win95 20:05:44 and i *wanted* win95 on it 20:05:47 indeed, there's little point to buying a Mac at all now 20:05:48 why, is another story 20:05:56 slava: we were all stupid once 20:06:00 i quite like mac os 20:06:11 what insane hippie bullshit. The mac machines are quite nice. 20:06:15 I have bad memories of MacOS 7 20:06:20 i'm considering buying a mac book pro in the near future -- the new models are slick 20:06:34 i have good memories of mac os 7. what would you compare it to from that time period? win 3.1? 20:06:42 os/2? 20:07:03 actually for me I stuck with MS-DOS then finally moved up to OS/2 20:07:18 This was before you became born-again? 20:07:34 then finally got the hell away from it once I realized it was almost as bad as Windows 3.1 20:07:53 OS/2. Almost as bad as Win3.1. Really. 20:07:55 Quartus: it was before I became a software atheist 20:08:02 :-) 20:08:06 --- quit: mem4tim (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 20:08:15 i've never used os/2, but surely its not as bad as win 3.1 20:08:29 That shows an astonishing ignorance of at least OS/2, if not also win3.1 20:08:32 it was every bit as stable as a straw house in a category 5 hurricane 20:08:47 maybe you had shoddy hardware? 20:08:51 you know, the free kind 20:08:52 Or... 20:08:55 Slackware GNU/Linux on the same hardware was rock solid 20:09:15 What year? 20:09:30 Windows 98 on this hardware I'm using now locked up anytime I would do too much at once. same hardware, both FreeBSD and Debian GNU/Linux work fine doing the same tasks. 20:09:48 win 98 is not known for stability 20:09:53 Quartus: my Slackware years were I think 1998 up to about 2001 20:09:57 err 20:09:57 Hang on. You're comparing OS/2 to Slackware. What OS/2? OS/2 1.3? OS/2 2.0? What year? 20:10:04 OS/2 Warp 3.0 20:10:40 the next one, Warp 4.0, was the one IBM priced to concede the consumer market back to Microsoft 20:10:48 something stupid like $300 20:11:21 finally realized why my mom cusses about IBM so much. and she programs (mostly) RPG on the AS/400 for a living 20:11:22 --- join: mem4tim (n=timlarso@user-12l37rb.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 20:11:44 silly to make generalizations regarding all IBM software 20:12:10 * slava has an IBM x86 box which has been running with zero problems since 2002 20:12:18 Warp. Ok, the most stable version. The version I built a 1300-site branch network on. Solid as granite. 1994. Slackware in 1994? 20:12:34 I didn't start playing with Slackware until 1998 20:12:36 * slava got into linux in 1997 20:12:39 Running on IBM hardware, no less 20:12:49 slackware in 1997 was not very good 20:12:58 the install process was a fun learning experience to me 20:13:00 Ok, so you're blithely comparing OS/2 in 1994 with Slackware in 1998. That explains it. 20:13:23 my understanding was that Warp 4.0 was overpriced 20:13:39 main issue was that IBM's marketing sucked 20:13:40 forgive me for not having the budget to buy overpriced shiny disks in shrinkwrapped boxes 20:15:28 if you treated it very carefully, like the fragile thing it was, OS/2 was okay 20:15:48 by some miracle I even ran a BBS on it... but that's nothing compared to what I do now 20:15:52 That's nonsense. You're unfortunately talking to someone who knows. 20:15:58 when I use a computer... I *use* the *computer* 20:17:04 I need an operating system that's going to do what I want. not crash when I need to get work done 20:17:23 i haven't had a crashing problem with either linux or mac os 20:17:27 this is why I now depend on either GNU variants or OpenBSD 20:17:33 last time i had a computer which crashed regularly was when i was using win95 20:18:17 this g5 hasn't crashed since i got it in feb 2006 20:18:24 *every* version of Windows has failed me at some point. 20:18:38 recently i was using win xp on and off for development 20:18:39 I no longer use it for any critical tasks 20:18:46 never had any issues 20:18:52 i don't like the user interface, though 20:19:21 even if Microsoft released the next Windows version after Vista under the GPL... I probably would *still* have to wait a year for all the bugs to finally get solved for good 20:19:27 that's how bad it is 20:19:40 what makes you think MS releasing Vista under the GPL would have any effect on its stability? 20:19:52 don'tcha know, it's like magical wiffle dust that improves software quality. 20:20:14 slava: it wouldn't, directly... but having more programmers able to fix the bugs, instead of Microsoft deciding which bugs get fixed and which don't, would make a huge difference 20:20:27 also it would rain doughnuts 20:20:35 what makes you think your typical OSS developer would have the motivation and skills to work on the windows codebase? 20:20:53 which is, by all accounts, a large, unmanageable ball of C++ 20:20:54 --- join: yumehito_ (n=yumehito@b-internet.87.103.254.70.snt.ru) joined #forth 20:20:57 and C, and assembly 20:21:07 slava: I'm not saying most free software programmers would relish the chance to fix Windows. I think enough of them would that we'd see a difference within the first few weeks 20:21:20 do you remember what happened to netscape navigator? 20:21:22 it was open sourced 20:21:27 defeaning silence ensues 20:21:29 and then, maybe the rest would see they aren't polishing a turd after all 20:21:36 a small number of coders, mostly netscape folk, then get to work on a total rewrite 20:21:44 total rewrite ships, with much fanfare, 5 (?) years later 20:21:44 I've heard of rose-coloured glasses, but this is the first time I've seen anyone wearing solid red opaque discs 20:21:53 well, that's AOL for you 20:22:37 the original AOL Navigator codebase (since AOL bought Netscape, that's effectively what it became at that point) was terminally ill 20:22:50 and vista isn't? 20:23:00 if anything, it's probably worse, but MS has the manpower and talent to keep it from exploding 20:23:01 and yes I've done a lot of work with HTML and CSS... the problem came when AOL bet the farm on JSSS (JavaScript Style Sheets) and lost 20:23:17 no, no, slava. You can't point at an equivalent example that didn't magically sprout wings and fly; that's not fair. 20:23:40 the hacks to try to make it work with an entirely different style sheet model never could keep up. it's a miracle CSS in Navigator 4.x worked as well as it did 20:24:13 --- join: sorear (n=stefan@ip68-6-133-142.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 20:24:28 I'm being generous when I say it would take a year in the case of Windows... 2-3 years is more realistic 20:25:02 actually you said 'within the first few weeks' 20:25:16 within the first few weeks some progress would be made 20:25:40 most likely, a few dozen people will become interested, and start studying bits of the code base 20:25:45 I mean, look at ReactOS... I keep watching it out of the corner of my eye even though I know it's far from done 20:25:48 at most, submitting a few patches which fix spelling mistakes in comments 20:26:22 but Windows source is probably a lot like AOL Navigator, needing huge rewrites to be truly good code 20:26:44 --- quit: yumehito (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:26:59 anyway 20:28:43 by the looks of it, GNU Forth image files are supposed to be executable from the command line. mine keep giving me "permission denied" errors 20:28:49 I've checked and the permissions are okay 20:28:56 --- join: yumehito (n=yumehito@b-internet.87.103.254.70.snt.ru) joined #forth 20:29:02 is the interpreter listed in the #! line itself executable? 20:29:23 yes, mode 755 20:29:43 this is with a CVS checkout of maybe a day ago 20:29:59 if it is going to take ~5 years to start improving windows, they better open it quick to not delay it further ;) 20:30:44 timlarson__: I'll drink to that one! 20:32:33 but yeah, that's why I quit using Microsoft products 20:38:51 Quartus: how many lines of code is the quartusforth kernel? 20:39:03 by kernel, i mean enough code to load source files / run an interactive interpreter 20:39:38 hmm, I'd have to check. It's hybrid assembler/Forth. Let me see. 20:40:53 factor's core is 7763 lines of factor and 9742 lines of C 20:41:35 oy 20:41:40 that's a lot of C 20:42:22 how do the systems that are written entirely in Forth define the very base primitives, if they don't use something like C? 20:42:41 let's go with about 6000 lines, slava, subject to my actually parsing out lines of code 20:42:43 some use asm 20:42:59 I would imagine assembler is about the only other realistic choice 20:43:33 and I've looked at ForthOS... and for various reasons I never could get it completely working 20:43:44 --- quit: yumehito_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:44:15 I think I used c, as my primitive language once. (i386 assemblers are pretty daunting...) 20:44:34 C is probably the best choice for anything that absolutely needs to be portable 20:44:57 just so long as it isn't some black bastard's evil proprietary compiler 20:44:59 it's tempting to do something crazy and write a Forth engine in BASIC as proof of concept 20:45:25 * DocPlatypus prepares to duck the book of Dijkstra quotations he knows is coming 20:45:27 Snidely Whiplash, say, or Boris and Nastasha. 20:45:36 * sorear has been tempted several times to implement Forth in INTERCAL 20:46:19 some basics were written in forth, iirc 20:46:27 or what was basically forth 20:46:52 you can write almost any language x in any language y. It's a stupid parlour trick that proves nothing and accomplishes less. 20:47:31 There's a Forth written in bash, which I'm sure is the belle of the ball as such things go. Completely pointless. 20:47:34 Interestingly, this is most commonly done when it is in fact not possible. For instance, Haskell in C. 20:47:47 you have a very patient parlour audience 20:48:13 I've got to see this Forth written in bash script 20:48:20 I figured. 20:48:27 I heard of an assembler written in bash 20:48:28 they're even writing ruby in java... 20:50:16 a really useful exercise. 20:51:39 That's the one that's a couple of orders of magnitude slower on the debian benchmarks, isn't it? 20:52:00 ruby? yes 20:52:07 although it competes with php for this coveted spot 20:52:10 the java ruby in particular 20:52:15 there was once on my old Atari where I wrote directly into 6502 machine code when I didn't feel like rebooting into the assembler 20:52:18 i wasn't aware it was being benchmarked 20:52:51 it was a small ~100 byte program embedded in a BASIC program 21:02:29 the Forth in bash script is nice I guess, except that it won't run anything I've written so far 21:02:41 sounds really nice 21:06:51 okay. someone give me code that this bashforth beast can actually *run* and then I will be impressed. 21:07:32 actually, I'm kidding... think I'm done playing with it for the night 21:42:55 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 21:43:11 --- nick: timlarson__ -> timlarson 22:14:53 --- quit: yumehito (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 22:25:43 --- join: Raystm2- (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-132-16.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 22:42:09 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:42:41 --- quit: RayS (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:20:46 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.06.08